...and the APA sprang immediately into action, forming the committee to develop the action plan to devise the strategic initiative that would submit a series of recommendations on what color paper Melba Vasquez will use to write a vague reply that gets published in the Monitor three years from now.
...and the APA sprang immediately into action, forming the committee to develop the action plan to devise the strategic initiative that would submit a series of recommendations on what color paper Melba Vasquez will use to write a vague reply that gets published in the Monitor three years from now.
In fairness and with some perspective, the idea that it is "ridiculous" not to be making $100,000 is also a part of the difficulty. The arrogance and entitlement of some in the profession has contributed to psychologists being less welcome than some other clinical professions in many settings.
Docma,
Sorry, I disagree, if you have a professional degree and you cannot make six figures there is something wrong. A doctorate is supposed to be valuable and special, perhaps the bar is not high enough leading to saturation and devaluing of these degrees.
I do believe that those who have developed skills and abilities that society values should reap the rewards of that effort. Not everyone is capable of making $100k, but that does not make it ridiculous for those who have invested in themselves and have the intellectual ability to expect to be rewarded for those efforts. This is no different than athletes that earn millions each year for their abilities and the efforts they have made to hone those abilities.
You don't see other medical practitioners apologizing for their six figure salaries... you don't see lawyers doing it... when was the last time you saw your congress critter apologizing for their six figure salary?
According to Salary.com the average salary for a pastor in 20851 was $92k per year!!! Do you hear them apologizing??? Stop it! It's ok to be successful, this vow of poverty BS that psychologists have been expected to endorse has been nothing but detrimental to the field. We are highly skilled, trained professionals and we are entitled to earn a living commensurate with the investment we've made in being professionals.
Mark
Without bragging, in other fields my intelligence would easily command a 6 figure salary; I'm sure others feel the same even if they have less candor.
On the other hand, Ollie, I'm active in APA and professional issues for precisely the reason that it's so terribly managed. Upon reflection I've realized this is more related to my personality tendency to do difficult things just because they're difficult, rather than some professional solidarity.
This is completely off-topic, but I want to know what pastors are making 92k a year! Driven up by mega-church outliers, perhaps? And, actually, apparently a lot of seminar students don't get funding and end up with six-digit debt loads--I was surprised to hear that.
Dissing other professions is actually off topic I think. Clergy have a way different "distribution" of salaries than psychologists, probably, but the point is how do we get the mean/median to where we want it for the profession as a whole. I actually think inner city kindergarten teachers should earn 6+ figures and many folks in Congress a good deal less...but that it not really relevant here either.
You do bring up a great point, there is more to happiness and fulfillment than a salary alone is responsible for. I also agree that psychologists have done a poor job of protecting the market niches that psychology had occupied in the past. There has been a continued encroachment in a number of areas and with no corresponding increases in other areas, effectively squeezing psychologists out of some markets and devaluing our skills in others.I think the focus on the number alone is meaningless. My focus would be on what is needed so that people leaving training can find work that is satisfying and have a quality of life that they want. Not everyone wants what Donald Trump has; everyone does want the basic Maslow hierarchy. So the focus needs to be the range of opportunity and students readiness to step into multiple work situations. Right now too many students have too narrow an idea of what psychologists can do and too many are being trained only to do what is no longer an exclusive/effective market niche (long term private practice model).
I do believe that those who have developed skills and abilities that society values should reap the rewards of that effort.
Not everyone is capable of making $100k, but that does not make it ridiculous for those who have invested in themselves and have the intellectual ability to expect to be rewarded for those efforts.
To what degree do you think society actually values the skills and abilities of properly trained clinical psychologists? Personally, I don't think very much for a variety of reasons (including stigma surrounding mental health professions and lack of public education about how skills differ and matter).
I'm not worried if other fields are getting paid "more than they should", not even sure that I would operationalize it that way. Psychologists are investing lots of time, effort, and money in getting trained and then cannot understand why their training has little value.Furthermore, just as some here may feel that teachers or clergy are getting paid more than they should (when compared to how much psychologists make after so much training), others in different fields may say that our skills aren't that specialized either and that we don't need such lengthy schooling to do our jobs in the first place.
Skills are worth what the market will bear, so the question is not why others are valued more, but why psychology seems to lack sufficient value to justify the time, effort, and money involved in the training of psychologists.Of course, I'm sure most of us would disagree with that, just as some teacher or clergy members might not believe that their skills aren't as worthy as ours.
And those people actually have a point worth considering.I understand what you're saying - but also imagine a lot of people outside of the field would argue that if you have those abilities you should invest in another field that a) would make use of your stellar intellectual ability and b) reward you properly for it based on societal demand/need.
I mentioned this to an adviser who is very active in APA and GPS (state level professional org) and she pointed out that APA doesn't have the lobbying budget to accomplish a lot of these big ticket items. She said many state and federal representatives won't even deal with lobbying organizations until they've contributed over a certain amount, and people just don't contribute that much to APA.
I mentioned this to an adviser who is very active in APA and GPS (state level professional org) and she pointed out that APA doesn't have the lobbying budget to accomplish a lot of these big ticket items. She said many state and federal representatives won't even deal with lobbying organizations until they've contributed over a certain amount, and people just don't contribute that much to APA.
Some good posts in this thread. . .
In my experience, they say the same things others in this thread have said. Many see themselves as underpaid for their skillset. Why? Because, like many of us, they have smart and successful friends. So, the neurologist that pulls in 200,000+ a year sees his buddy pulling in 1,000,000+ a year and thinks, "I could do that." Of course, being around these people irritates me even more as I'm not close to either of those incomes. . . and have to contend with nurses and other semi-professionals/mid-levels outstripping the average psychologist income (making my bargaining position difficult).
I've come to the conclusion that psychology (the field, not the content) is a bit of a joke. We have a significant number of marginal talents with counter-productive political/life views that act as deadweight in furthering the development of the field. This, combined with the fact that everyone (out there in the general public) has an opinion on psychology and believes in their own intentional/psychological explanations of behavior, and we've got a serious problem with gaining traction for the field as a whole.
I make okay money, not great. I'm not satisfied with it. At the same level of accomplishment, as a physician (in a similar specialty), I'd probably be making 3-4 times my current income, and have tons more clout in my department (which does matter because it affects what I'm able to do, strings I have access to). This is why, for those that are interested in neuro-oriented research, I recommend you just go to medical school. It will save you a lot of trouble. Hell, you can extend that to non-neuro too, just go work in a psychiatry department.
For those that want to be psychotherapists, I don't know to say. . . clinical psychology is dead?
Sadly I agree with much of what JS wrote. I am frustrated that I'll have to look outside of the profession if I want to make good money ($200k+/yr w. decent hours), while that is easily attainable if I went with my backup plan of med school. I would definitely caution people looking into clinical psychology right now...not only should you look elsewhere for money, but prestige is a steep mountain to climb in psychology.
For those who want to squeak by, maybe making a good salary isn't high on the list, but I'm aiming for top medical centers, and the pay at them is sadly inadequate for the amount of training we put in. I have friends who went to marginal law schools who pull down $150k+ without much effort. I'll have put in 8 years by the time I complete my fellowship, and I'll have to work my butt off to get 2/3 of that.
For those who want to squeak by, maybe making a good salary isn't high on the list, but I'm aiming for top medical centers, and the pay at them is sadly inadequate for the amount of training we put in. I have friends who went to marginal law schools who pull down $150k+ without much effort. I'll have put in 8 years by the time I complete my fellowship, and I'll have to work my butt off to get 2/3 of that.
if you were to do it over would u have gone the medical route?
I know it's not uncommon to make 100k+ first year out of law school, but I wouldn't say these people put in minimal effort. Working 80+ hour weeks is the norm for someone taking a job like that and the burnout rate is through the roof.
I really wanted to do all therapy and assessment, but the way the market is going, it just doesn't make financial sense to do this. Neuropsych isn't much better, especially if you add in the financial loss from the extra fellowship. I figure I can do med checks in the morning, make all of my money there and conduct psychotherapy in the afternoons and not feel rushed to see tons of patients in order to make ends meet.
Man, reading this thread makes me really, really pray I get accepted into a certain program working for Uncle Sam.
So of course it is important that we all make enough money after we graduate. Of course. But it seems to me that if anyone is out for the big payday, then they should obviously look somewhere else. Define what is important for yourself, and if money is the biggest thing, then you should reevaluate your chosen path. However, if you love psychology and research and are willing to forgo some material luxuries compared to other people, then stick with it. That's my plan.
Life is too short, and money too fleeting, to make for yourself a career you don't love.