Awful Md or Good DO

whoknows2012 said:

Neither me nor Gplex denies the fact that that Touro's reputation is far from excellent. Everyone on here who does NOT have a vested interest in this however fails to recognize the potential benefits.

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Agreed.

My suggestion is to read the interviews from the new president of Touro. The gist of it is that he's inheriting a massive institution and the goal is to improve quality.

Buying NYMC is a logical way to help bring together all the health sciences programs and improve reputation. Makes a lot more sense than this ridiculous vampire theory. We were literally told that the overall plan is for NYMC to be the "centerpiece" of Touro's health sciences programs. Changing the name of NYMC would be a ridiculous move - the name alone is an asset. Will they add on to the name? That's possible.

If I were Touro, I'd start transferring all the NY based health sciences programs to the NYMC banner. We haven't had a nursing school since 1979. I would then phase out the NY DO school and make it a branch campus for Metropolitan Hospital/NYMC. Wow, all of a sudden NYMC has a huge footprint in medical education, and Touro benefits from the improved stature as well. See how the transaction can help both sides?

gplex86 said:

Agreed.

My suggestion is to read the interviews from the new president of Touro. The gist of it is that he's inheriting a massive institution and the goal is to improve quality.

Buying NYMC is a logical way to help bring together all the health sciences programs and improve reputation. Makes a lot more sense than this ridiculous vampire theory. We were literally told that the overall plan is for NYMC to be the "centerpiece" of Touro's health sciences programs. Changing the name of NYMC would be a ridiculous move - the name alone is an asset. Will they add on to the name? That's possible.

If I were Touro, I'd start transferring all the NY based health sciences programs to the NYMC banner. We haven't had a nursing school since 1979. I would then phase out the NY DO school and make it a branch campus for Metropolitan Hospital/NYMC. Wow, all of a sudden NYMC has a huge footprint in medical education, and Touro benefits from the improved stature as well. See how the transaction can help both sides?

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Forgive me for playing devil's advocate because I really do like everything about NYMC *except* this merger... But, DO tuition dollars are worth just as much as MD tuition dollars. An MD reputation doesn't necessarily correspond to more money except maybe through research grants, but I think becoming affiliated with a for-profit institution would cancel that out if not hurt the funding. Is that true? I'm not an econ guy so please correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm just trying to figure out how a $60 million investment in a not for profit school can translate to more money for shareholders, which is who Touro ultimately has to answer to. Obviously they see something beyond reputation (aka money!!!!), but if anybody's figured out what it is, I really want to know. And hey, maybe it could somehow turn into a huge endowment for NYMC... University of Phoenix has like a bajillion dollars. Maybe the Jets will play in Touro stadium one day. But for now, I'm just as lost as the next pre-med who slept through high school econ... and that's what sketches me out more than anything. Because the students seem to be in the dark about what's going on leads me to believe this is going to turn out negatively.

wait i don't think touro is a for-profit

gplex86 said:

My suggestion is to read the interviews from the new president of Touro. The gist of it is that he's inheriting a massive institution and the goal is to improve quality.

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Link.

On a related note--how can one ascertain the rotation reputation of the medical schools they are applying to. This post made me aware of something I'd never considered--would this be an appropriate thing to ask about during interviews or should I talk to currents students? I'm happy to get in anywhere that accepts me however I hope it doesn't come at the expense of a good education :/

gplex86 said:

Last I checked, MCPHU/Allegheny University eventually became Drexel University College of Medicine. It doesn't look to me like things turned out that bad for them. And it's false logic to say that just because one merger went bad, that the same would happen to NYMC. There have been other acquisitions of med schools by universities, you know.

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My only point in bringing up that situation is that while things eventually worked out, the kids who were promised quite exceptional facilities (during the Allegheny years) were stuck in a bankrupt medical school with loads of extra stress, banks not accepting their student loan checks, as well as a significant decrease in their available clerkship sites. Your time in med school is short. If you have to deal with that crap during it, it really doesn't matter how it all turns out years later. If the OP is being promised how things will be under the "new system" then he should take it with a huge grain of salt.

As for the OP, I don't know the reputations of the schools in question, but I personally would take an american MD school over a DO school, no matter what the reputation of either.

dbeast said:

Forgive me for playing devil's advocate because I really do like everything about NYMC *except* this merger... But, DO tuition dollars are worth just as much as MD tuition dollars. An MD reputation doesn't necessarily correspond to more money except maybe through research grants, but I think becoming affiliated with a for-profit institution would cancel that out if not hurt the funding. Is that true? I'm not an econ guy so please correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm just trying to figure out how a $60 million investment in a not for profit school can translate to more money for shareholders, which is who Touro ultimately has to answer to. Obviously they see something beyond reputation (aka money!!!!), but if anybody's figured out what it is, I really want to know. And hey, maybe it could somehow turn into a huge endowment for NYMC... University of Phoenix has like a bajillion dollars. Maybe the Jets will play in Touro stadium one day. But for now, I'm just as lost as the next pre-med who slept through high school econ... and that's what sketches me out more than anything. Because the students seem to be in the dark about what's going on leads me to believe this is going to turn out negatively.

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Touro is NOT FOR PROFIT. Argument defeated.

Parts Unknown said:

Link.

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http://www.jewishpress.com/pageroute.do/41149

I think they actually asked him some pretty tough questions. Here's the answer I found most important:

I think that reputation always lags behind reality by several years.

If you look, for example, at Touro's undergraduate colleges right now, these are actually outstanding institutions with tremendous faculty and world-class deans educated at Ivy League schools who have tremendous commitment to education. I think our goal in the short term actually is not so much to change all that much in these institutions, but rather to get the word out.

It's also true that because Touro is such a complex institution with many components to it, sometimes there can be some spillover effect [reputation-wise] if one component is not working so well. That's why one of my goals is to increase quality throughout Touro.

The first goal, like I said, is to continue to strengthen the academic quality throughout the institution. It's a large institution with 29 different schools, and there's excellent education throughout. But there are some places where it can be made better.

A second goal is to solidify the health sciences programs. We want to increase integration and coordination among these programs to help cross-fertilize ideas and educational opportunities.

And a third goal that Dr. Lander has, which I fully support, is to try to help grow the international programs at Touro, which he views as outposts of Touro and Yiddishkeit for a variety of different communities throughout the world.

And here's an article that talks about who the new president of Touro is.

http://www.educationupdate.com/archives/2010/JUN/html/col-alan.html

I think it's very encouraging that the new president is a MD, Einstein med, Harvard residency, UPenn fellowship, former professor at Northwestern... I mean this is a HUGE change from a 90-year-old Rabbi/sociologist.

You got to admit there's certainly an opportunity to grow this into something great. Need I remind people that NYU wasn't really considered to be such a great school until the 1990's? Things can change a lot over time.

gplex86 said:

And here's an article that talks about who the new president of Touro is. I think it's very encouraging that the new president is a MD, Einstein-educated, former professor at Northwestern.

http://www.educationupdate.com/archives/2010/JUN/html/col-alan.html

The old founder is out. There's certainly an opportunity to grow this into something great. Need I remind people that NYU wasn't really considered to be such a great school until the 1990's?

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Stop being so disillusioned! He obviously has his mind set on stealing all our money, I mean come on! Anyway, all the money is in the banana stand

whoknows2012 said:

Stop being so disillusioned! He obviously has his mind set on stealing all our money, I mean come on! Anyway, all the money is in the banana stand

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You're right - how could I have been so misguided??? How could I expect a not-for-profit JEWISH school with a JEWISH president to keep their slimy hands off my money!? Of course they're going to funnel it all to the seven Jewish bankers who run the Illuminati.

(anti-Semitic disclaimer: I'm in The Tribe)

gplex86 said:

Touro is NOT FOR PROFIT. Argument defeated.

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My bad, the discussion in this thread from Sunday led me to believe it was... Still, seems like there's much more to this than just the reputation boost?

dbeast said:

My bad, the discussion in this thread from Sunday led me to believe it was... Still, seems like there's much more to this than just the reputation boost?

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Lifting up the institution, growing it, expanding... these are all things that public and private universities spend hundreds of millions of dollar a year on. It's commonplace. Not all benefits are monetary.

That's not to say that some programs aren't individually profitable. But the money gets invested in other areas of the university. That's where undergrad tuition ends up. And that's why med schools run SMP programs.

You could argue that Touro is spending too much money on expansion and not enough to improve the programs that they have. Fair criticism. But there are no shareholders to return the money to. The only place it would potentially go is the university's endowment.

This is a relatively inexpensive transaction that, quite possibly, is the start of that big push to improve. Who knows if it will actually happen but there's certainly a lot of opportunity here.

gplex86 said:

You could argue that Touro is spending too much money on expansion and not enough to improve the programs that they have. Fair criticism. But there are no shareholders to return the money to. The only place it would potentially go is the university's endowment.

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There are plenty of pockets for the money. Some of the greediest health care systems in the country are non-profit. They get a tax break while "reinvesting" profits, and line their personal coffers with the rest. What's not to like?

I hope I am wrong here, but I suspect this Touro-NYMC deal will be an unwelcome education for you. It's a bit like your recently widowed mother shacking up with a guy who is on step 1 of 12. Things could end well, but would you bet on it?

Parts Unknown said:

There are plenty of pockets for the money. Some of the greediest health care systems in the country are non-profit. They get a tax break while "reinvesting" profits, and line their personal coffers with the rest. What's not to like?

I hope I am wrong here, but I suspect this Touro-NYMC deal will be an unwelcome education for you. It's a bit like your recently widowed mother shacking up with a guy who is on step 1 of 12. Things could end well, but would you bet on it?

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For someone who is clearly not educated on this particular transaction, you seem pretty sure that this is not going to be beneficial. Let me make an analogy for you...would you want an expert in the field of quantum physics recommending a patient of yours a specific therapy for a disease? Sure the quantum physicist is brilliant and may well make amazing decisions in his field, but his having no knowledge on medicine makes his recommendation meaningless. This is how I see someone like you coming into a thread like this explaining that through your experiences, these things have a tendency to go wrong. Could you be right? Sure, is it the more likely scenario that you are? Absolutely not. IMO, the more likely scenario is that things pretty much stay the same, I'm not sitting here saying that all applicants/students should expect amazing benefits and therefore should have sky high expectations. My interpretation of this situation is that it is likely this is mutually beneficial for both parties involved (NYMC/Touro) and in the end very little noticeable change will occur. BTW I have read your previous posts and realize you're an attending, so before you come back and feel the need to point that out to me in addition to all the experience you have in hospitals/health care system, A)I already know, and B)this by no means makes you an expert.

Of course the only way to find out is to wait and see what happens.

As it stands the merger may not even happen. The handover didn't occur on time and the contract was extended until May, along with some amount of cash. We were supposed to be chomping on kosher food by now. It's not a certainty anymore.

The other thing that's often ignored in these discussions - our current owner sucks. The reasons for joining up with the Archdiocese are way in the past. At least Touro seems wiling to throw some money at the place.

whoknows2012 said:

For someone who is clearly not educated on this particular transaction, you seem pretty sure that this is not going to be beneficial.

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Given that the details of "this particular transaction" are being held in both confidence and with great uncertainty, I'd say that neither of us is 100% educated on it.

But, close your eyes for a moment. Imagine Harvard just bought NYMC. Or MKSCC. Or Einstein. Now open your eyes. Touro. A broke medical school is in talks with the worst medical education system on these shores. The bottom of the bottom.

Yes, I'm sure this is going to end swimmingly.

I'm glad you're so sure. The next step is to wait and watch as it unfolds. Gplex is also correct in that the certainty of this deal going through is up in the air, and in the meantime we still get money from them.

Parts Unknown said:

Given that the details of "this particular transaction" are being held in both confidence and with great uncertainty, I'd say that neither of us is 100% educated on it.

But, close your eyes for a moment. Imagine Harvard just bought NYMC. Or MKSCC. Or Einstein. Now open your eyes. Touro. A broke medical school is in talks with the worst medical education system on these shores. The bottom of the bottom.

Yes, I'm sure this is going to end swimmingly.

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The fact is, Touro has many different programs and they are all quite bad. Whoever it was that was interviewed seemed to think that some of these programs are actually quite good. From what I know about them, that is far from the truth, and they have no goals of improving some of those (like the undergrad, for example). Also he stressed integration between different health science programs. Honestly, do you want NYMC to have any connection to any of their allied health programs?
It's obvious that Touro only cares about rapid expansion at this point. Having decently run programs is on the backburner.

I can't imagine NYMC not taking a hit from Touro's reputation (eventually).

Parts Unknown said:

There are plenty of pockets for the money. Some of the greediest health care systems in the country are non-profit. They get a tax break while "reinvesting" profits, and line their personal coffers with the rest. What's not to like?

I hope I am wrong here, but I suspect this Touro-NYMC deal will be an unwelcome education for you. It's a bit like your recently widowed mother shacking up with a guy who is on step 1 of 12. Things could end well, but would you bet on it?

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Interesting analogy.

Parts Unknown said:

Given that the details of "this particular transaction" are being held in both confidence and with great uncertainty, I'd say that neither of us is 100% educated on it.

But, close your eyes for a moment. Imagine Harvard just bought NYMC. Or MKSCC. Or Einstein. Now open your eyes. Touro. A broke medical school is in talks with the worst medical education system on these shores. The bottom of the bottom.

Yes, I'm sure this is going to end swimmingly.

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qft. Touro has really taken advantage of students. Not cool.

wanderer100 said:

The fact is, Touro has many different programs and they are all quite bad. Whoever it was that was interviewed seemed to think that some of these programs are actually quite good. From what I know about them, that is far from the truth, and they have no goals of improving some of those (like the undergrad, for example). Also he stressed integration between different health science programs. Honestly, do you want NYMC to have any connection to any of their allied health programs?
It's obvious that Touro only cares about rapid expansion at this point. Having decently run programs is on the backburner.

I can't imagine NYMC not taking a hit from Touro's reputation (eventually).

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i think it says something that the only people who see the move as likely to be positive are those with a vested interest in nymc.. honestly, no one can say for sure how it will turn out, but for those of us on the outside looking in, it just simply doesn't pass the smell test

Parts Unknown said:

Given that the details of "this particular transaction" are being held in both confidence and with great uncertainty, I'd say that neither of us is 100% educated on it.

But, close your eyes for a moment. Imagine Harvard just bought NYMC. Or MKSCC. Or Einstein. Now open your eyes. Touro. A broke medical school is in talks with the worst medical education system on these shores. The bottom of the bottom.

Yes, I'm sure this is going to end swimmingly.

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I completely understand where you're coming from.

NYMC (technically the Archdiocese) spent 5 years searching for partners. Touro made an early offer and was turned down, and so they went ahead with a MD school in Jersey. NYMC nearly shacked up with St. Johns but it didn't work out. Fordham had already lost millions by purchasing the bankrupt Marrymount College in Westchester. Pace University it seems couldn't afford it. With no Catholic or local schools left, NYMC even had meetings with Notre Dame.

Five years later, there's no partner. You can blame it on the Archdiocese for asking for too much money (which is outrageous since they never SPENT money on NYMC). You can blame it on the bad economy that absolutely gutted university endowments. You can blame it on skyrocketing costs. Or maybe it's just bad luck. They tried.

If NYMC can't pay it's own bills (right now it's getting by but the endowment is shrinking), then the Archdiocese would be responsible for the money. They don't want that. Rather than simply releasing the school to a university, then want to get paid. Hence, they finally took Touro on their offer, Touro-NJ was disbanded, and here we are today.

It would have been nice to have ended up with St. Johns, Fordham or Pace but this is what we got. They're keeping NYMC as a separate university within the Touro system (official letterhead is "New York Medical College, a member of the Touro university system").

They have new leadership, we'll get more money. They have a lot of programs for mid-level practitioners, we have a med school that might be able to make them better. If they do get better, then NYMC will benefit from having a full consortium of programs, and we'll grow closer. If they don't then we'll continue to distance ourselves as NYMC vs Touro students. That's all.

The general feeling on campus is that things will improve, stay the same, or some combination of the two. I guess that's the most insight we can give you on these boards. There are a few people who are passionate about it but most really don't care. It's actually the butt of many jokes - the flag football conferences this year are "NYMC" and "Touro".

Take away message is chill out, let the suits do their thing, try to stay positive and don't attempt to predict the future.

gplex86 said:

Take away message is chill out, let the suits do their thing, try to stay positive and don't attempt to predict the future.

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contradicts...

gplex86 said:

The general feeling on campus is that things will improve, stay the same, or some combination of the two.

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MCAT guy said:

contradicts...

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Am I missing something? He is merely explaining how everyone feels on campus. No one is predicting the future, and even Gplex and I and just explaining how we personally feel about the situation which is far from predicting what will happen. Suggesting what the likely outcome may be is far from predicting the future.

gplex86 said:

Take away message is chill out, let the suits do their thing, try to stay positive and don't attempt to predict the future.

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I would commend you one realizing this and hope anyone who finds themselves a situation like this realizes it. The suits will continue to "do their thing" and your job, whether to get through medical school, residency, or just do you job as an attending, will go on. 99.99 percent of the time, the activity of the suits will not affect you, and those who avoid the distraction usually come out on top.

whoknows2012 said:

Am I missing something? He is merely explaining how everyone feels on campus. No one is predicting the future, and even Gplex and I and just explaining how we personally feel about the situation which is far from predicting what will happen. Suggesting what the likely outcome may be is far from predicting the future.

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Agreed.

Can we please put an end to this, we're getting nowhere because in all honesty partsunknown is right, no one knows for 100% certainty what is A) going to happen and B) what will or will not change. The reason I posted in the first place was to set the record straight with the misinformation being spread. This also happened around the same time last yr and I again felt it was necessary to intervene. Any one of you in the same position would feel similarly. What benefit is there to be pessimistic with regard to this situation, when there is absolutely NOTHING that can be done about it. I'd rather be on the optimistic side of realistic as opposed to the pessimistic side, as the latter would probably bog me down and interfere with things that are actually important RIGHT NOW, as opposed to 5-10 years down the line, when I will most likely be finishing residency/heading on to the next stage. So let me end this by saying that if there are any applicants considering applying to NYMC, don't not apply because of the Touro situation, but make sure you get as educated as you can by talking to students/faculty if you come to interview. Its a solid school in a great location (wrt to its proximity to NYC not Valhalla it self, which to be honest is nothing special). Everybody knows that it has become increasingly difficult to get into a US MD school, and blindly eliminating a school based on this situation is foolish IMO.

whoknows2012 said:

Everybody knows that it has become increasingly difficult to get into a US MD school, and blindly eliminating a school based on this situation is foolish IMO.

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I agree we should put this to sleep. But I completely disagree that it would be foolish to eliminate the school based upon this information even if it did cost a person an extra application year.

The character of the business or school matters to me and while NYMC is peachy, we have seen people call Touro "slimeballs" with no one defending them, we've seen them create an environment where people decided to sell fake diplomas (this isn't typical, even as a "one-off" event), we've seen them rapidly expand their student body while completely disregarding their current students programs (esp. 3rd/4th yr rotations), we've seen them be greedy, we've heard of many unhappy students in the Touro system, we've seen them called the worst in medical education.

I am an optimist by nature, but character counts and even if it's "just money" that is being offered, I absolutely think it matters where that money came from and how it was earned.

I think as a student you will be long gone before anything could happen, but 2015 and beyond is a long time away, much CAN happen.

MCAT guy said:

I agree we should put this to sleep. But I completely disagree that it would be foolish to eliminate the school based upon this information.

The character of the business or school matters to me and while NYMC is peachy, we have seen people call Touro "slimeballs" with no one defending them, we've seen them create an environment where people decided to sell fake diplomas (this isn't typical, even as a "one-off" event), we've seen them rapidly expand their student body while completely disregarding their current students programs (esp. 3rd/4th yr rotations), we've seen them be greedy, we've heard of many unhappy students in the Touro system, we've seen them called the worst in medical education.

I am an optimist by nature, but character counts and even if it's "just money" that is being offered, I absolutely think it matters where that money came from and how it was earned.

I think as a student you will be long gone before anything could happen, but 2015 and beyond is a long time away, much CAN happen.

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Well you my friend must be a superstar who will easily get 10 interviews and many acceptances. As you are well aware, most applicants are not. And by the way, selectively quoting what I said doesn't make your argument stronger. I clearly said that a person should apply, if they get an interview go to it and find out as much as they can and make a decision based on that, not the BS spewed on SDN. Hence my comment on not blindly eliminating the school. If you're apprehensive about it in the first place and can easily get accepted elsewhere, then good riddance it probably wouldn't have made a difference anyway. There are however many people who will gladly attend NYMC, Touro or otherwise.

whoknows2012 said:

Well you my friend must be a superstar who will easily get 10 interviews and many acceptances. As you are well aware, most applicants are not. And by the way, selectively quoting what I said doesn't make your argument stronger. I clearly said that a person should apply, if they get an interview go to it and find out as much as they can and make a decision based on that, not the BS spewed on SDN. Hence my comment on not blindly eliminating the school.

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This is a character issue, it has nothing to do with me nor my stats/app.

If I only got 1 interview and 1 acceptance and I sincerely doubted the character of my school then I would decline and apply again the next year.

Please keep in mind that I don't question NYMC's character at all, but I absolutely question Touro's. I'm only going to medical school once.

MCAT guy said:

This is a character issue, it has nothing to do with me nor my stats/app.

If I only got 1 interview and 1 acceptance and I sincerely doubted the character of my school then I would decline and apply again the next year.

Please keep in mind that I don't question NYMC's character at all, but I absolutely question Touro's. I'm only going to medical school once.

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But it does because from my experience in a applying to Medical School with fellow applicants on the interview trail, as well as other friends that have applied, there is a HUGEEEEE, I mean HUGEEEE, difference between the attitude of a borderline applicant as opposed to someone who is in the middle as opposed to someone who is a "superstar." This should not come as a surprise to you.

I would like to follow that up with an example; A borderline applicant will often apply broadly and literally will go anywhere they get in (USMD). If they get into multiple schools than this person may be either an amazing interviewee or more of an average applicant. In that case, having the option means that other factors such as cost, location etc come into play. For a superstar applicant, while they may interview at some of the less prestigious schools, they really have no intent on going there in the first place and do so to ensure acceptance, ie a safety school (which is why some of the less prestigious schools reject applicants with really high stats, since they know they will not most likely not end up attending). Granted these are all generalities, but when you begin applying/interviewing, I would be very surprised if you do not have the same experience.

whoknows2012 said:

Can we please put an end to this, we're getting nowhere because in all honesty partsunknown is right, no one knows for 100% certainty what is A) going to happen and B) what will or will not change. The reason I posted in the first place was to set the record straight with the misinformation being spread. This also happened around the same time last yr and I again felt it was necessary to intervene. Any one of you in the same position would feel similarly. What benefit is there to be pessimistic with regard to this situation, when there is absolutely NOTHING that can be done about it. I'd rather be on the optimistic side of realistic as opposed to the pessimistic side, as the latter would probably bog me down and interfere with things that are actually important RIGHT NOW, as opposed to 5-10 years down the line, when I will most likely be finishing residency/heading on to the next stage. So let me end this by saying that if there are any applicants considering applying to NYMC, don't not apply because of the Touro situation, but make sure you get as educated as you can by talking to students/faculty if you come to interview. Its a solid school in a great location (wrt to its proximity to NYC not Valhalla it self, which to be honest is nothing special). Everybody knows that it has become increasingly difficult to get into a US MD school, and blindly eliminating a school based on this situation is foolish IMO.

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i appreciate your position and what you're trying to do, but quite frankly, i'm not sure what record-straightening that you actually did

bleargh said:

i appreciate your position and what you're trying to do, but quite frankly, i'm not sure what record-straightening that you actually did

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"Touro NY is now an MD school in Valhalla, isn't it?"

"Does Touro = NYMC?"

"worse for NYMC, maybe, but certainly better for the students of Touro's various campuses. i have to believe that if Touro has to make a cut somewhere, it'll be from NYMC"

"You have been told (nothing in writing) that everything will stay the same. As one poster mentioned, this doesn't go very far"

"but I think becoming affiliated with a for-profit institution would cancel that out if not hurt the funding."

All misinformation that was posted at some point throughout the discussion. Granted I added a comment of yours just because your making an assumption without actually knowing much about the situation, so it is less of misinformation as it is an uniformed opinion that has no value.

twentyone said:

I would commend you one realizing this and hope anyone who finds themselves a situation like this realizes it. The suits will continue to "do their thing" and your job, whether to get through medical school, residency, or just do you job as an attending, will go on. 99.99 percent of the time, the activity of the suits will not affect you, and those who avoid the distraction usually come out on top.

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Thank you.

whoknows2012 said:

"Touro NY is now an MD school in Valhalla, isn't it?"

"Does Touro = NYMC?"

"worse for NYMC, maybe, but certainly better for the students of Touro's various campuses. i have to believe that if Touro has to make a cut somewhere, it'll be from NYMC"

"You have been told (nothing in writing) that everything will stay the same. As one poster mentioned, this doesn't go very far"

"but I think becoming affiliated with a for-profit institution would cancel that out if not hurt the funding."

All misinformation that was posted at some point throughout the discussion. Granted I added a comment of yours just because your making an assumption without actually knowing much about the situation, so it is less of misinformation as it is an uniformed opinion that has no value.

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to be honest though, the factually incorrect statements you've put up there could have been corrected by just about any other person. as for uninformed opinion of no value, from my vantage point it doesn't seem like you are particularly well informed either.

bleargh said:

to be honest though, the factually incorrect statements you've put up there could have been corrected by just about any other person. as for uninformed opinion of no value, from my vantage point it doesn't seem like you are particularly well informed either.

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You're right, but I did set the record straight in most of those, regardless of whether or not it could have been done by someone else. You just said I didn't actually do much, which is also factually incorrect. As for how informed I am, I could care less how you see it from your vantage point, your are not a student here, do not have access the the transition website we have that updates us with new information, nor the emails we have received regarding further updates. Unless I'm missing something my level of being informed >>>> yours.


And just because I think its fair to bring this up, Gplex's level of being informed>>>>mine

whoknows2012 said:

You're right, but I did set the record straight in most of those, regardless of whether or not it could have been done by someone else. You just said I didn't actually do much, which is also factually incorrect. As for how informed I am, I could care less how you see it from your vantage point, your are not a student here, do not have access the the transition website we have that updates us with new information, nor the emails we have received regarding further updates. Unless I'm missing something my level of being informed >>>> yours.


And just because I think its fair to bring this up, Gplex's level of being informed>>>>mine

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what's stopping you?

i'm happy for you that you feel your level of informed-ness is >>>> mine, but i doubt to the 3rd party observer that this is readily apparent.

also, considering your "information" isn't exactly coming from unbiased sources, it's hard to take it seriously.

finally, even i corrected the for-profit thing

bleargh said:

what's stopping you?

i'm happy for you that you feel your level of informed-ness is >>>> mine, but i doubt to the 3rd party observer that this is readily apparent.

also, considering your "information" isn't exactly coming from unbiased sources, it's hard to take it seriously.

finally, even i corrected the for-profit thing

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w/e man you clearly are privy to the large amounts of "un-biased" information that is out there which allows you to make such concrete statements of the validity of the information we are getting here. It's statements like this that are frustrating because in the 15 months I've been here and the almost 3 years Gplex has been here, NYMC has made some strides to improve many facets of the school, and it is unfortunate that outside observers who have no knowledge on what is going on within the school feel it is their duty to steer people away. Good job

bleargh said:

what's stopping you?

i'm happy for you that you feel your level of informed-ness is >>>> mine, but i doubt to the 3rd party observer that this is readily apparent.

also, considering your "information" isn't exactly coming from unbiased sources, it's hard to take it seriously.

finally, even i corrected the for-profit thing

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I am informed because I seek out the information. I hate not knowing. Your notion of Touro was based in large part on some major incorrect assumptions because the facts that you had at your disposal were false. Why did you have the wrong facts? Because you didn't do the research, or you got your answers from secondary or tertiary sources.

The unfortunate thing is that even when the facts are corrected, the opinion never really goes away. Try to convince a moon landing denier with scientific evidence, you'll never win the argument.

If you want to have an REAL opinion on NYMC or Touro, you should make the effort the learn more about them in a legitimate way. If you are not willing to make the effort, then you have no business engaging in an argument because unlike the attendings, you as a premed bring nothing to the table. Willingly or unwillingly you're acting as a vehicle for misinformation.

EDIT:

And any student at NYMC's viewpoint on the campus atmosphere is also pretty important. The place isn't falling down - it's still growing. They're setting up a multi-million dollar terrorism/disaster medicine/research center on campus. Plans for a standardized patient center are in the works (I believe right now we use the ones at Sinai). The children's hospital is putting up a new building. New affiliation with Keller Army Hospital at West Point. New clinical curriculum with expanded electives. HD cable on campus! They re-painted the student lounge! Lunchables in the vending machines! Things are getting better here, not worse.

gplex86 said:

I am informed because I seek out the information. I hate not knowing. Your notion of Touro was based in large part on some major incorrect assumptions because the facts that you had at your disposal were false. Why did you have the wrong facts? Because you didn't do the research, or you got your answers from secondary or tertiary sources.

The unfortunate thing is that even when the facts are corrected, the opinion never really goes away. Try to convince a moon landing denier with scientific evidence, you'll never win the argument.

If you want to have an REAL opinion on NYMC or Touro, you should make the effort the learn more about them in a legitimate way. If you are not willing to make the effort, then you have no business engaging in an argument because unlike the attendings, you as a premed bring nothing to the table. Willingly or unwillingly you're acting as a vehicle for misinformation.

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can you specifically point out some of these false facts at my disposal?

whoknows2012 said:

w/e man you clearly are privy to the large amounts of "un-biased" information that is out there which allows you to make such concrete statements of the validity of the information we are getting here. It's statements like this that are frustrating because in the 15 months I've been here and the almost 3 years Gplex has been here, NYMC has made some strides to improve many facets of the school, and it is unfortunate that outside observers who have no knowledge on what is going on within the school feel it is their duty to steer people away. Good job

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what kind of concrete statements am i making? everyone, both you and i included, is merely speculating on the future

bleargh said:

what kind of concrete statements am i making? everyone, both you and i included, is merely speculating on the future

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That because our information comes from biased sources it's hard to take seriously. You are concretely calling our sources biased. The information available is the information available, its not like politics where there are two sides here, all we have is what is available. I am also grouping you in with the rest of the posters that seem to "know" this isn't going to turn out well, when I say that it's frustrating to see uninformed opinions on the matter posted on SDN.

whoknows2012 said:

That because our information comes from biased sources it's hard to take seriously. You are concretely calling our sources biased. The information available is the information available, its not like politics where there are two sides here, all we have is what is available. I am also grouping you in with the rest of the posters that seem to "know" this isn't going to turn out well, when I say that it's frustrating to see uninformed opinions on the matter posted on SDN.

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how do you deny this though? the first-hand information you are getting can only come from those involved in this situation, and they are thus affected in their view/agenda based on their direct involvement. bias is not necessarily negative, but how can there not be a conflict of interest of some kind for a website set-up by the school that is being bought and emails sent out by the administration?

also, i see completely that things could in fact turn out well, and like i said, we're all just speculating. i have serious reservations, but that's just, like, my opinion, man. it only affects how i send out my own applications, and that really isn't skin off anyone's back

bleargh said:

how do you deny this though? the first-hand information you are getting can only come from those involved in this situation, and they are thus affected in their view/agenda based on their direct involvement. bias is not necessarily negative, but how can there not be a conflict of interest of some kind for a website set-up by the school that is being bought and emails sent out by the administration?

also, i see completely that things could in fact turn out well, and like i said, we're all just speculating. i have serious reservations, but that's just, like, my opinion, man. it only affects how i send out my own applications, and that really isn't skin off anyone's back

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Then send in your applications and stop arguing about institutions you know nothing about.

gplex86 said:

Then send in your applications and stop arguing about institutions you know nothing about.

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umad?

bleargh said:

how do you deny this though? the first-hand information you are getting can only come from those involved in this situation, and they are thus affected in their view/agenda based on their direct involvement. bias is not necessarily negative, but how can there not be a conflict of interest of some kind for a website set-up by the school that is being bought and emails sent out by the administration?

also, i see completely that things could in fact turn out well, and like i said, we're all just speculating. i have serious reservations, but that's just, like, my opinion, man. it only affects how i send out my own applications, and that really isn't skin off anyone's back

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And if you noticed, I am not trying to convince you or MCAT guy to apply/attend NYMC. Im just saying that injecting a misinformed opinion into an important discussion is highly counterproductive. I am not denying the fact that information given to us by our president/administration could be biased toward ensuring there is no uprising of the students faculty. But I also doubt these people are willing to stake their careers on handing out information that will not end up being true. Its not like we're getting updates from Touro. It is from our current president/administration who has handed out whatever information is available.

bleargh said:

umad?

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No. I wish you the best.

whoknows2012 said:

And if you noticed, I am not trying to convince you or MCAT guy to apply/attend NYMC. Im just saying that injecting a misinformed opinion into an important discussion is highly counterproductive. I am not denying the fact that information given to us by our president/administration could be biased toward ensuring there is no uprising of the students faculty. But I also doubt these people are willing to stake their careers on handing out information that will not end up being true. Its not like we're getting updates from Touro. It is from our current president/administration who has handed out whatever information is available.

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How are our opinions terribly misinformed? From what I recall, MCATguy, myself, and a few others hold the opinion that essentially boil down to - "Touro's reputation is not so hot, its purchase of NYMC might be a bad thing for NYMC" It might not end up being true, but I don't think it's fair to call it misinformed, unless either Touro's reputation is actually great, or that it is not buying NYMC.

edit: I realize I might be coming off to you as having some anti-NYMC agenda, but seriously, nothing can be further from the truth. I hope it does very well in the future as it has in the past, since it's one of the highest attended med schools for alumni of my college and I have some friends who are going/graduated.

gplex86 said:

No. I wish you the best.

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thanks, you too

whoknows2012 said:

And if you noticed, I am not trying to convince you or MCAT guy to apply/attend NYMC. Im just saying that injecting a misinformed opinion into an important discussion is highly counterproductive. I am not denying the fact that information given to us by our president/administration could be biased toward ensuring there is no uprising of the students faculty. But I also doubt these people are willing to stake their careers on handing out information that will not end up being true. Its not like we're getting updates from Touro. It is from our current president/administration who has handed out whatever information is available.

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Also worth noting, there are two reason why Dr. Adler was appointed president/CEO of NYMC back in 2006:

1) To find a partner for the school (that was explicitly stated)

2) He's been with NYMC since 1981, including dean of the school of medicine. The early 80's were a very tough time for this school.

So you have someone brokering the sale (and communicating with the faculty and students) who's been entrenched in the college administration for over 30 years. You tend to think that someone like that is working to do what's best for the school. But backstabbings are possible, sure. Ask Caesar.