APA-accredited programs under probation

Those darned Canadians are taking over! I think we have more to worry about from poorly educated/trained FSPS students (who I suspect outnumber those pesky, thieving Canadians by a kajillion to one )...

Yes, I'm being ridiculous...

From my knowledge most psychology programs do have non USA citizens in their programs who attend college on a student visa or a green card. Even FSPS have students under this status and in my program we have sudents from Germany, India, Iran, Pakistan, and yes even from Canada. Some of these students have no intention on becoming American Citizens but are primarily here to acquire training as clinical psychologists. Many of them stay in the USA after finishing up and work in the USA under a green card with no desire or intention of become US Citizens.

Frankly, I do not know the exact numbers of students in clinical psychology programs from countries outside of the USA but I would say most programs have at least one student from other countries in their program who receive funding for their program. I am not aware of many Americans going to programs outside of the USA for graduate school training but it seems that we have good numbers of students from outside the USA accepted to graduate programs in the USA across all fields. Actually, if you have ever had medical treatment at a Teaching Hospital as I have and my children have, it is more common for MD's, residents, and fellows to be foreign doctors.

Most of the graduate programs in the USA are subsidized with funding for students for tuition and for assistantships, so basically US and State tax dollars are paying for the education of these students. Some of these students even get student loans with no intention on paying them back since they may depart back to Canada after finishing up their degree and work in Canada. Although there is a purported shortage of predoctoral internships, there still is a relatively good amount of students from other countries coming to the USA for graduate education in clinical psychology and receiving funding for their education. Maybe there needs to be some federal restrictions on the number of students from foreign countries approved for graduate training in clinical psychology. It just seems highly hippocritical for a foreign student to take the lead against APA in a petition about the shortage of internships in the USA. Why in the world would you come to America for graduate school training if you don't like the American System of Democracy and free enterprise. Seems that you would have gone to graduate school in Canada where you could compain about CPA programs and internships. My guess is that many of the people participating in the petition have completed APA internsbips or are in the process of doing APA accredited internships so why are they concerned about any shortage of internships?

The original focus of this thread was devoted to program on probationary status and there are few programs on probationary status with some PhD and some PsyD programs being on probation. Being on probation does not necessarily involve a negative viewpoint as the criteria to maintain accreditation may not be under the control of the program, student's retained, student's graduated, student's going to APA accredited internships...etc... Student variable are not under control of the program, as student's transfer and student's drop out of programs, even the PhD university based programs have this happen. The statistic of going to APA accredited internships probably has a negative impact on FSPS but here recently some of the PhD programs are only having 60% placement in APA accredited internship, so are all of these programs going to eventually be on probation? I doubt it!

4410 said:

From my knowledge most psychology programs do have non USA citizens in their programs who attend college on a student visa or a green card. Even FSPS have students under this status and in my program we have sudents from Germany, India, Iran, Pakistan, and yes even from Canada. Some of these students have no intention on becoming American Citizens but are primarily here to acquire training as clinical psychologists. Many of them stay in the USA after finishing up and work in the USA under a green card with no desire or intention of become US Citizens.

Frankly, I do not know the exact numbers of students in clinical psychology programs from countries outside of the USA but I would say most programs have at least one student from other countries in their program who receive funding for their program. I am not aware of many Americans going to programs outside of the USA for graduate school training but it seems that we have good numbers of students from outside the USA accepted to graduate programs in the USA across all fields. Actually, if you have ever had medical treatment at a Teaching Hospital as I have and my children have, it is more common for MD's, residents, and fellows to be foreign doctors.

Most of the graduate programs in the USA are subsidized with funding for students for tuition and for assistantships, so basically US and State tax dollars are paying for the education of these students. Some of these students even get student loans with no intention on paying them back since they may depart back to Canada after finishing up their degree and work in Canada. Although there is a purported shortage of predoctoral internships, there still is a relatively good amount of students from other countries coming to the USA for graduate education in clinical psychology and receiving funding for their education. Maybe there needs to be some federal restrictions on the number of students from foreign countries approved for graduate training in clinical psychology. It just seems highly hippocritical for a foreign student to take the lead against APA in a petition about the shortage of internships in the USA. Why in the world would you come to America for graduate school training if you don't like the American System of Democracy and free enterprise. Seems that you would have gone to graduate school in Canada where you could compain about CPA programs and internships. My guess is that many of the people participating in the petition have completed APA internsbips or are in the process of doing APA accredited internships so why are they concerned about any shortage of internships?

The original focus of this thread was devoted to program on probationary status and there are few programs on probationary status with some PhD and some PsyD programs being on probation. Being on probation does not necessarily involve a negative viewpoint as the criteria to maintain accreditation may not be under the control of the program, student's retained, student's graduated, student's going to APA accredited internships...etc... Student variable are not under control of the program, as student's transfer and student's drop out of programs, even the PhD university based programs have this happen. The statistic of going to APA accredited internships probably has a negative impact on FSPS but here recently some of the PhD programs are only having 60% placement in APA accredited internship, so are all of these programs going to eventually be on probation? I doubt it!

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Oh man, here we go again...we just love conjecture...

Being on probation reflects PROGRAMMATIC issues. APA accredidation is a MINIMAL standard.

4410 said:

My guess is that many of the people participating in the petition have completed APA internsbips or are in the process of doing APA accredited internships so why are they concerned about any shortage of internships?

The original focus of this thread was devoted to program on probationary status and there are few programs on probationary status with some PhD and some PsyD programs being on probation. Being on probation does not necessarily involve a negative viewpoint as the criteria to maintain accreditation may not be under the control of the program, student's retained, student's graduated, student's going to APA accredited internships...etc... Student variable are not under control of the program, as student's transfer and student's drop out of programs, even the PhD university based programs have this happen. The statistic of going to APA accredited internships probably has a negative impact on FSPS but here recently some of the PhD programs are only having 60% placement in APA accredited internship, so are all of these programs going to eventually be on probation? I doubt it!

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I attended an APA-accredited doctoral program, am completing an APA internship, and am heading to an APA fellowship in the summer/fall, and I'm a strong proponent of the petition. As to why, I can only speak for myself in saying that I see it as an issue facing the field as a whole, and thus I choose to have a wider mindset/focus than simply, "well, I made it through, so I don't care anymore." I also know of qualified applicants (from my program and elsewhere) who faced much more stress than should've been the case owing to the shortage, and/or who didn't match. I'd imagine both of these situations/concerns are familiar to many of the other people who matched to internships yet choose to play an active role in supporting the position and battling the internship crisis.

As for the second bolded point, while some of those factors may not directly be under the program's control, I honestly can't think of many/any situations in which a program being on probation would not cast it in a negative light (warranted or not). Beyond that, while programs can't prohibit applicants from leaving the program, they can minimize the chances of this happening by only admitting enough students as there are resources available (so that the students feel appropriately supported and are able to attain the training they need, thereby reducing frustration), maintaining adequate admissions standards so that applicants have demonstrated the ability to handle the typical graduate-level workload, and offering financial aid/funding so that financial strain and stress (while still apparent) are reduced.

Pragma said:

Oh man, here we go again...we just love conjecture...

Being on probation reflects PROGRAMMATIC issues. APA accredidation is a MINIMAL standard.

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I don't agree, there are high quality graduate programs and internships that are not APA accredited. Some program are on probation not due to the quality of the program but due to other areas not within their control. These program that are on probation may have the probation lifted and be fully APA accredited again. So what then....do you imply that the students who were in the program when it was on probation are somehow defective and should not be allowed to indicate they were in an APA accredited program?

4410 said:

I don't agree, there are high quality graduate programs and internships that are not APA accredited. Some program are on probation not due to the quality of the program but due to other areas not within their control. These program that are on probation may have the probation lifted and be fully APA accredited again. So what then....do you imply that the students who were in the program when it was on probation are somehow defective and should not be allowed to indicate they were in an APA accredited program?

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No, I am implying that a program that is unable to maintain APA accredidation is likely admitting too many students, not offering sufficient resources to their students in terms of training opportunities and financial support to encourage retention, and is more than likely contributing to the internship imbalance.

4410 said:

Most of the graduate programs in the USA are subsidized with funding for students for tuition and for assistantships, so basically US and State tax dollars are paying for the education of these students. Some of these students even get student loans with no intention on paying them back since they may depart back to Canada after finishing up their degree and work in Canada...Why in the world would you come to America for graduate school training if you don't like the American System of Democracy and free enterprise.

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1: If you are going to drop a statement about how Canadian students are involved in a nefarious plan to skip out on student loans, I would love to see a citation.

2: An important part of democracy is the ability to petition and protest for change. Our country was founded on protest. Given that, I'd say that the APPIC protest fully aligns with the "American System of Democracy," if that's what you're referring to.

4410 said:

. Some of these students have no intention on becoming American Citizens but are primarily here to acquire training as clinical psychologists. Many of them stay in the USA after finishing up and work in the USA under a green card with no desire or intention of become US Citizens.

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As a Canadian who has completed a US practicum and will be doing an American post-doc-- the understanding is, when receiving a student Visa or a temporary worker's Visa, that we are not supposed to be seeking to become US citizens. Any indication that we want to stay in the US can actually be used against us in terms of being able to enter. So, this is not us trying to take advantage of the system, it is what the US government quite frankly prefers.

4410 said:

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I am not aware of many Americans going to programs outside of the USA for graduate school training but it seems that we have good numbers of students from outside the USA accepted to graduate programs in the USA across all fields.

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Again, in Canada, it is common practice for Americans to come here for clinical training, along with individuals from other national backgrounds. I come from a small program with class sizes in the single digits, and I can't remember a year without at least one American. So, no, it isn't just everyone rushing to the US. However, I see this as a good thing! I think exposure to different perspective and experiences is a huge advantage in graduate training, both from your clients and from your peers. I've also found it fascinating learning about the different systems of health care from my American peers, as it helped me a lot in my transition to doing clinical work in the US.

4410 said:

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Most of the graduate programs in the USA are subsidized with funding for students for tuition and for assistantships, so basically US and State tax dollars are paying for the education of these students.

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You do know that international students usually end up paying double the tuition, right?

4410 said:

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Some of these students even get student loans with no intention on paying them back since they may depart back to Canada after finishing up their degree and work in Canada.

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Do you have any evidence of this as a common pattern at all? It is not like you cross the border and magically disappear, and your debts don't follow you into the Northern tundra.

And, again, we are supposed to go back to Canada after we finish our degrees, according to Visa criteria.

4410 said:

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Although there is a purported shortage of predoctoral internships, there still is a relatively good amount of students from other countries coming to the USA for graduate education in clinical psychology and receiving funding for their education.

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I can only speak for Canadians, but our programs are involved in the match in the exact same way. We have almost the exact same statistics in terms of unmatched students as US sites- 25% this year. It is not like we are bombarding the US and stealing all your positions. I don't have any statistics for Canadian citizens overall, but most applicants from Canadian universities do internships in Canada (95% of matched applicants are matched to Canadian sites-- a whopping 7 students from Canadian universities matched to US sites last year). In fact, more students from American universities match to Canada than vice versa-- but this number was still only 16 students for the most recent match.

The moral of this story- Canadians are probably not responsible for the imbalance, strangely enough.

4410 said:

From my knowledge most psychology programs do have non USA citizens in their programs who attend college on a student visa or a green card. Even FSPS have students under this status and in my program we have sudents from Germany, India, Iran, Pakistan, and yes even from Canada. Some of these students have no intention on becoming American Citizens but are primarily here to acquire training as clinical psychologists. Many of them stay in the USA after finishing up and work in the USA under a green card with no desire or intention of become US Citizens.

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So?

4410 said:

Frankly, I do not know the exact numbers of students in clinical psychology programs from countries outside of the USA but I would say most programs have at least one student from other countries in their program who receive funding for their program. I am not aware of many Americans going to programs outside of the USA for graduate school training but it seems that we have good numbers of students from outside the USA accepted to graduate programs in the USA across all fields. Actually, if you have ever had medical treatment at a Teaching Hospital as I have and my children have, it is more common for MD's, residents, and fellows to be foreign doctors.

Most of the graduate programs in the USA are subsidized with funding for students for tuition and for assistantships, so basically US and State tax dollars are paying for the education of these students. Some of these students even get student loans with no intention on paying them back since they may depart back to Canada after finishing up their degree and work in Canada.

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As an aside, your post comes off as somewhat xenophobic. I'm not sure if this is your intention, but that is how it appears to me. If that is your intention (covertly or overtly), I find it offensive.

4410 said:

Although there is a purported shortage of predoctoral internships, there still is a relatively good amount of students from other countries coming to the USA for graduate education in clinical psychology and receiving funding for their education. Maybe there needs to be some federal restrictions on the number of students from foreign countries approved for graduate training in clinical psychology. It just seems highly hippocritical for a foreign student to take the lead against APA in a petition about the shortage of internships in the USA. Why in the world would you come to America for graduate school training if you don't like the American System of Democracy and free enterprise.

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That has nothing to do with the imbalance efforts by the 1500+ signers of the petition. As one of the primary contributors with Mike, I find your comments purposefully misleading and inflammatory.

4410 said:

Seems that you would have gone to graduate school in Canada where you could compain about CPA programs and internships. My guess is that many of the people participating in the petition have completed APA internsbips or are in the process of doing APA accredited internships so why are they concerned about any shortage of internships?

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Please provide proof....or kindly apologize for yet another gross misrepresentation of contrary fact.

4410 said:

The original focus of this thread was devoted to program on probationary status and there are few programs on probationary status with some PhD and some PsyD programs being on probation. Being on probation does not necessarily involve a negative viewpoint as the criteria to maintain accreditation may not be under the control of the program, student's retained, student's graduated, student's going to APA accredited internships...etc... Student variable are not under control of the program, as student's transfer and student's drop out of programs, even the PhD university based programs have this happen. The statistic of going to APA accredited internships probably has a negative impact on FSPS but here recently some of the PhD programs are only having 60% placement in APA accredited internship, so are all of these programs going to eventually be on probation? I doubt it!

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The are some great programs that have experienced a lower match rate than average, which most would associate with the imbalance. However, you implication that the only reason FSPS programs (particularly non-APA acred. Programs) have a hard time matching is because of the imbalance is untrue. Many sites outright require applicants to come from APA-acred. program. This is a documented fact.

4410: You have yet to actually CITE data to support ANY of your wildly inaccurate Statements. True scientists trust in data. If you are going to attempt to participate in a professional conversation, please respect the mores of the community by backing up your statements with actual data.

Sometimes I really wonder if 4410 is a troll.

AcronymAllergy said:

I attended an APA-accredited doctoral program....

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Why did you completely ignore his xenophobic-sounding comments about Canadians and foreign medical providers? You can't get much more inflammatory than that, which is against SDN Policy.

and yes, I did report the post, I just found it curious that you ignored the elephant in the room.

Therapist4Chnge said:

Why did you completely ignore his xenophobic-sounding comments about Canadians and foreign medical providers? You can't get much more inflammatory than that, which is against SDN Policy.

and yes, I did report the post, I just found it curious that you ignored the elephant in the room.

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If AA is anything like me, reading 4410's posts becomes so tiring that I get distractible and my comprehension suffers. The rambling style seems to make me sleepy. I tend to skip over things, and only later am fully aware of the full extent of the "misinformation"

Sorry guys. He's in The South. Being intimately familiar with the area where he's at and will be at for internship, I suspect his views are spot on and not trolling behavior at all unfortunately (he'll fit right in! ). They mesh quite well with many of those I know from that cursed region.

4410: Please don't go to the capital of the state because they do have those foreign folks there (quite a few of them actually!), and I would hate for them to be subjected to such nonsense, fear, or whatever you wish to call it.

FTR, I know quite a few folks who are from other countries who are citizens. Now what? Do they get a magical pass to treat others without suspicion?

My apologies in advance for this post being tangentially related to the topic at hand.

I am entering a Psy.D. program this Fall at a site that is currently accredited but has its next APA site visit scheduled for this year (2012).

Do you think that this will affect student and/or faculty behavior, knowing that the courses at hand this upcoming semester may be under evaluation? Could this site visit occur before I enter my first semester at the program, and will not affect my education?

I know very little about how the process works, so any enlightenment would be most appreciated!

paramour said:

Sorry guys. He's in The South. Being intimately familiar with the area where he's at and will be at for internship, I suspect his views are spot on and not trolling behavior at all unfortunately (he'll fit right in! ). They mesh quite well with many of those I know from that cursed region.

4410: Please don't go to the capital of the state because they do have those foreign folks there (quite a few of them actually!), and I would hate for them to be subjected to such nonsense, fear, or whatever you wish to call it.

FTR, I know quite a few folks who are from other countries who are citizens. Now what? Do they get a magical pass to treat others without suspicion?

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What....I am not from the South....I have lived in Overland Park, Kansas most of my life and I used to live in Chicago. When did Chicago become part of the South? I am currently living in the Southwest, Texas but most do not consider Texas as being part of the South. Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Georgia are mostly States considered part of the South. Oh...I get it...us students in FSPS are all from the South or equal to being Southern!!! I was in Lousiana two weeks ago on Canal Street in the French Quarter and took a picture of a cable car and put it in my avatar. I guess that makes me from the South!! I guess I am actually South of Canada when I lived in Gurnee, Illinois. Oh...a bunch of Canadians are in FSPS in Chicago....maybe they are the incompetent ones who did not get into PhD programs!!! Yeah...Right!!!

4410....whenever you get a chance, I'd appreciate a response to my post, with citations to support your many....uhm...assertions about the field, Canadians, etc.

Dude, I said IN the south, not FROM the south. And yes, most everyone I know FROM Texas believes they are IN the south.

When you have folks walking around in cowboy hats (it happens) with shotguns in the back of their pickup trucks and concealed carry, you tend to have thoughts that you're in the South... M'kay?

Hell, I know more people who would argue with you about Florida more than Texas. Sheesh. (And I'm not just in case you think I am.... )

Therapist4Chnge said:

4410....whenever you get a chance, I'd appreciate a response to my post, with citations to support your many....uhm...assertions about the field, Canadians, etc.

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I think it is certainly plausible if American Doctoral Programs had none or limited numbers of students from other countries that you would have more internships and more jobs for American Students. The reason students from other countries come to America to attend graduate school is due to more programs and the jobs in America in the psychology field pay much higher than most other countries. It could be argued that the internship unbalance could be factored into foreign students attending American Schools as much as it being due to FSPS of which a high number of students are from foreign countries. Basically, the imbalance is no easy problem to solve with multiple factors to consider.

4410 said:

I think it is certainly plausible if American Doctoral Programs had none or limited numbers of students from other countries that you would have more internships and more jobs for American Students. The reason students from other countries come to America to attend graduate school is due to more programs and the jobs in America in the psychology field pay much higher than most other countries. It could be argued that the internship unbalance could be factored into foreign students attending American Schools as much as it being due to FSPS of which a high number of students are from foreign countries. Basically, the imbalance is no easy problem to solve with multiple factors to consider.

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Citation?

Again, as I've said previously, many foreign graduate students attending programs in the US have to leave afterwards as part of their Visa requirements.

The funny thing is, there is actually evidence for the role of FSPS in the imbalance... but strangely, no evidence for the role of us sneaky Canadians and our student loan dodging, American job stealing plans (you could insert any nationality in there, I'm sure, although I think Canadians are the only ones you accused of scamming US student loans).

4410 said:

I think it is certainly plausible if American Doctoral Programs had none or limited numbers of students from other countries that you would have more internships and more jobs for American Students. The reason students from other countries come to America to attend graduate school is due to more programs and the jobs in America in the psychology field pay much higher than most other countries. It could be argued that the internship unbalance could be factored into foreign students attending American Schools as much as it being due to FSPS of which a high number of students are from foreign countries. Basically, the imbalance is no easy problem to solve with multiple factors to consider.

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Programs have a certain number of slots to fill every year in terms of incoming PhD students. Whether that person is international or American, the imbalance would still exist. The same goes for jobs. If anything, if only American students were completing their PhDs in the U.S., MORE people would compete for psych related jobs in the US after graduation, as many/some international students do go back to their country of origin after graduation.

4410 said:

I think it is certainly plausible if American Doctoral Programs had none or limited numbers of students from other countries that you would have more internships and more jobs for American Students. The reason students from other countries come to America to attend graduate school is due to more programs and the jobs in America in the psychology field pay much higher than most other countries. It could be argued that the internship unbalance could be factored into foreign students attending American Schools as much as it being due to FSPS of which a high number of students are from foreign countries. Basically, the imbalance is no easy problem to solve with multiple factors to consider.

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Are you serious? I mean, whoever takes the time to respond constructively has the patience of a saint...

All hail inductive reasoning! "I see a foreign FSPS student. Therefore, a high number of FSPS students are foreign" I mean, even if there are a high number of folks attending US schools from other countries, your conclusions are way off-base and quite insulting I am sure to many members of this forum.

Groupthink said:

My apologies in advance for this post being tangentially related to the topic at hand.

I am entering a Psy.D. program this Fall at a site that is currently accredited but has its next APA site visit scheduled for this year (2012).

Do you think that this will affect student and/or faculty behavior, knowing that the courses at hand this upcoming semester may be under evaluation? Could this site visit occur before I enter my first semester at the program, and will not affect my education?

I know very little about how the process works, so any enlightenment would be most appreciated!

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Most likely it won't affect you at all. It's possible that the site visit has already occurred, and even if it hasn't, the visit itself won't affect the way courses are run or students are treated. The paperwork for these accreditation visits starts well in advance, so any changes that were being made to the program in anticipation of continuing accreditation will have already been made.

My program had a site visit a couple years ago. I know the faculty members were stressed with getting the paperwork done. However, as a student, I wasn't at all affected by it. I met with the professionals who were doing the visit (all students were invited to do so), and that's about it.

My program had a site visit my first year and it was not a big deal at all. They will want to talk to you most likely, though.

paramour said:

Dude, I said IN the south, not FROM the south. And yes, most everyone I know FROM Texas believes they are IN the south.

When you have folks walking around in cowboy hats (it happens) with shotguns in the back of their pickup trucks and concealed carry, you tend to have thoughts that you're in the South... M'kay?

Hell, I know more people who would argue with you about Florida more than Texas. Sheesh. (And I'm not just in case you think I am.... )

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Maybe you should visit Texas before making such generalizations. Texas being one of the largest States has much diversity ranging from Big Cities such as Dallas that may have a large number of professionals from the East or West Coast to very rural areas that parallels Western GunSmoke mentality. Generally, Texas aligns itself more with the Southwestern States rather than the Southern States. Did you get your mindset about Texas like the rest of the World from watching "Dallas?"

Just so these aren't lost....

4410 said:

The reason students from other countries come to America to attend graduate school is due to more programs and the jobs in America in the psychology field pay much higher than most other countries.

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Citation?

4410 said:

It could be argued that the internship unbalance could be factored into foreign students attending American Schools as much as it being due to FSPS of which a high number of students are from foreign countries. Basically, the imbalance is no easy problem to solve with multiple factors to consider.

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Citation?

According to the 2011 APPIC Survey, in which 2,683 applicants replies, a mere 13% were not US citizens, half of which were Canadian. Someone with more time can crunch the numbers to get an accurate estimate of the # of total Canadian applicants v. Canadian internship spots...but it is basically a wash unless there has been a huge increase in Canadian applicants in recent years. That leaves 5-6% of all applicants to be non-US citizen (dual citizenship was not specified). Unless there is a huge difference in distribution between programs, there is no way your assertion can be remotely true. I welcome hard data to prove me wrong.

In regard to general diversity between programs and program types, Norcross et al. (2004) addressed this in their Professional Psychology: Research and Practice article "The Psy.D.: Heterogeneity in Practitioner Training." They found that was no real difference in the % of ethnic minorities between the difference types of programs.

I wanted to come back to something you said earlier....

4410 said:

Actually, if you have ever had medical treatment at a Teaching Hospital as I have and my children have, it is more common for MD's, residents, and fellows to be foreign doctors.

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This is COMPLETELY false. There are a PLETHORA of data put out by the AAMC about the residency match each year. The 2011 data clearly shows that FMGs (which includes AMFGs) were in the minority for matching to US-based residencies. Please educate yourself about the data before spouting off about things you don't know.

4410 said:

Most of the graduate programs in the USA are subsidized with funding for students for tuition and for assistantships, so basically US and State tax dollars are paying for the education of these students.

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Again...citation? Norcross et al. (2004) speaks to this, check out Table 4. Additionally, foreign students are not typically allowed to take out gov't loans (dual citizens and other exceptions), which is what pays for a larger and larger % of tuition these days as funding sources are cut.

4410 said:

Some of these students even get student loans with no intention on paying them back since they may depart back to Canada after finishing up their degree and work in Canada.

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Citation?

At what point does a level of drivel-spouting become bannable? People are wasting massive amounts of time responding to nonsensical posts by someone who clearly is jumping to a conclusion, then making up "facts" to support that conclusion, over and over for multiple issues. He has already given medical advice on the forum and said things that would encourage applicants to make poor decisions. It might be tolerable if he were consistently saying common myths about training, and was open to discussion and data, but clearly he isn't. Discussion and debate are important, but only when both sides are informed; 4410's posterior is not a peer-reviewed journal, and things he pulls out of it are not facts.

MCParent said:

At what point does a level of drivel-spouting become bannable? People are wasting massive amounts of time responding to nonsensical posts by someone who clearly is jumping to a conclusion, then making up "facts" to support that conclusion, over and over for multiple issues. He has already given medical advice on the forum and said things that would encourage applicants to make poor decisions. It might be tolerable if he were consistently saying common myths about training, and was open to discussion and data, but clearly he isn't. Discussion and debate are important, but only when both sides are informed; 4410's posterior is not a peer-reviewed journal, and things he pulls out of it are not facts.

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i have raised this before with the mods.

So basically students from Non APA accredited FSPS PsyD programs have no place on this forum, especially students who take out large student loans. We are the problem based on what everyone says is based on fact according to APPIC statistics. Basically, 1/3 of all clinical psychology students are from these programs and most of us finish our degrees and become licensed psychologists in the United States. Everyone has their points of vulnerability and I specified students from foreign countries as perhaps coming to America to attend our clinical psychology programs due to the overall high quality of programs, even program that are not APA accredited. Thank about it a minute....America is such a great country that people all over the world want to live in America, even Canadians. We value diversity and this includes different types of programs that will fullfill the needs for traditional and non traditional students. Clearly to specify that a problem exists due to data that most likely is not valid should not be allowed. There are many different types of students attending doctoral programs in clinical psychology so all types of programs are necessary. A psychologists training is individualized with interdisciplinary focus as you can't have a template that has APA stamped on the head of every student who becomes licensed as a psychologist, when a large number of students from non APA accredited programs support diversity and develop competent psychologists who become licensed. Rather than limit admissions to doctoral programs in psychology we need to encourage more students to pursue this course, regardless of going through APA or non APA accredited programs.

The petition is a bogus way of attempting to make change in doctoral level training. If it was as easy as APA saying we will correct the unbalance after reviewing the petition, it would have been done years ago. The unbalance of internships has nothing to do with APA, University or FSPS or foreign students. It has to do with factors as the economy, budgets cut, competition from master's level programs and reimbusability for training of interns. We talked about these concerns at a recent conference I attended. The doctoral degree needs to be granted before beginning internship so internships may bill for services provided for the interns. The graduate programs needs to change where the degree is granted and the EPPP is taken during the final year of graduate study, so interns may be provisionally licensed psychologists during their internships. States need to reduce licensure requirements to one year of postdoctoral training rather than having a predoctoral and a postdoctoral year of training before becoming licensed as a psychologist.

There is no simple solution to the internship unbalance. Reviewing peer reviewed journals studies is not going to solve the problem as it is multidimensional with many factors...not just FSPS or Foreign students. Coming from a Canadian, I can only laugh "Rear Reviewed"...please, why would you even go there?

4410 said:

Maybe you should visit Texas before making such generalizations. Texas being one of the largest States has much diversity ranging from Big Cities such as Dallas that may have a large number of professionals from the East or West Coast to very rural areas that parallels Western GunSmoke mentality. Generally, Texas aligns itself more with the Southwestern States rather than the Southern States. Did you get your mindset about Texas like the rest of the World from watching "Dallas?"

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No. From living and visiting there frequently. Yes, there is diversity in the grand ole' state of Texas. I also indicated the folks *I* know from Texas. I'm sorry, but you're still not going to convince many folks that Texas is the epitome of Western or Eastern cultures. Ain't gonna happen (I'd bet my boots on it). If you're a self-admitted/proclaimed mid-westerner, I suspect that I know more about the region than you... having lived there most my life and then some...

Therapist4Chnge said:

Just so these aren't lost....



Citation?



Citation?

According to the 2011 APPIC Survey, in which 2,683 applicants replies, a mere 13% were not US citizens, half of which were Canadian. Someone with more time can crunch the numbers to get an accurate estimate of the # of total Canadian applicants v. Canadian internship spots...but it is basically a wash unless there has been a huge increase in Canadian applicants in recent years. That leaves 5-6% of all applicants to be non-US citizen (dual citizenship was not specified). Unless there is a huge difference in distribution between programs, there is no way your assertion can be remotely true. I welcome hard data to prove me wrong.

In regard to general diversity between programs and program types, Norcross et al. (2004) addressed this in their Professional Psychology: Research and Practice article "The Psy.D.: Heterogeneity in Practitioner Training." They found that was no real difference in the % of ethnic minorities between the difference types of programs.

I wanted to come back to something you said earlier....



This is COMPLETELY false. There are a PLETHORA of data put out by the AAMC about the residency match each year. The 2011 data clearly shows that FMGs (which includes AMFGs) were in the minority for matching to US-based residencies. Please educate yourself about the data before spouting off about things you don't know.



Again...citation? Norcross et al. (2004) speaks to this, check out Table 4. Additionally, foreign students are not typically allowed to take out gov't loans (dual citizens and other exceptions), which is what pays for a larger and larger % of tuition these days as funding sources are cut.



Citation?

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I actually found the point that Canadians (or other international applicants) are stealing applicants interesting. As I was searching through internship sites tonight, I ran across more than a few that indicated applicants had to be a U.S. resident to apply due to issues with student visas (I think they referred to them as J-1s?) not covering the conditions under which they would be here. I guess that keeps them from stealing our sites and sends them back home where they belong, huh? (I am making a horrible, horrible, distasteful statement here, and I acknowledge this. I desperately need sleep before I wake up in a couple hours...)

And "people all over the world want to live in America, even Canadians"?

C'mon, man! Aren't Canadians already in "America" by default? Or did we ship them off to another continent somewhere? The U.S. of A. really isn't the center of the world whether we believe it or not.

Obviously this thread has become charged, but it's also a helpful and informative series of topics both with respect to the OP (i.e., programs on probation and potential associated consequences of this) and some of the tangents that have sprung up. Let's just all try to remain calm and civil. If there are specific posters whom you find to be particularly irksome, the ignore feature is always available, and can be a great alternative to letting someone get you riled up.

1. Isn't posting purposefully inflammatory things against SDN Policy?
2. Doesn't the same hold true for xenophobic/racist/hateful comments?

For example...what if someone wrote:

[Foreigners] even get student loans with no intention on paying them back since they may depart back to [their country] after finishing up their degree and work in [their county].

xenophobe:
n.
A person unduly fearful or contemptuous of that which is foreign, especially of strangers or foreign peoples.

Is SDN condoning this type of behavior? I know it isn't my rodeo anymore, but these types of comments should have no place on a professional forum. People don't need to read Sue & Sue to know this kind of posting is problematic.

Therapist4Chnge said:

1. Isn't posting purposefully inflammatory things against SDN Policy?
2. Doesn't the same hold true for xenophobic/racist/hateful comments?

For example...what if someone wrote:

[Foreigners] even get student loans with no intention on paying them back since they may depart back to [their country] after finishing up their degree and work in [their county].

xenophobe:
n.
A person unduly fearful or contemptuous of that which is foreign, especially of strangers or foreign peoples.

Is SDN condoning this type of behavior? I know it isn't my rodeo anymore, but these types of comments have no place on a professional forum.

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Well if 4410 does not need to get banned for making stupid comments, I am sure that discriminatory ones are held to a different policy.

In the absence of a ban, perhaps 4410's posts could be accompanied by some sort of disclaimer signature, such as "The following material is entirely reactionary and anecdotal. It most likely will reflect a defensive stance towards arguments against FSPS, fictional assertions about the superiority of such programs over "inadequate" PhD programs, and conspiracy theories utilized to avoid actual data. The post may also be inflammatory towards citizens of other countries. Please filter accordingly."

Therapist4Chnge said:

1. Isn't posting purposefully inflammatory things against SDN Policy?
2. Doesn't the same hold true for xenophobic/racist/hateful comments?

For example...what if someone wrote:

[Foreigners] even get student loans with no intention on paying them back since they may depart back to [their country] after finishing up their degree and work in [their county].

xenophobe:
n.
A person unduly fearful or contemptuous of that which is foreign, especially of strangers or foreign peoples.

Is SDN condoning this type of behavior? I know it isn't my rodeo anymore, but these types of comments should have no place on a professional forum. People don't need to read Sue & Sue to know this kind of posting is problematic.

Click to expand...

Especially with this little gem added onto the end of his last post: "Coming from a Canadian, I can only laugh".

RGirl said:

Especially with this little gem added onto the end of his last post: "Coming from a Canadian, I can only laugh".

Click to expand...

I don't even understand what that meant.

But, yeah, those policies should be applied consistently. If a person was openly insulting, say, Chinese or Middle Eastern students, it would be applied. I hope that the odd attitude that is sometimes demonstrated toward Canadians by Americans is not allowing such remarks to go unrestrained just because they're focused on Canadians. He did expand his xenophobia in the later posts.

Much of his other posts in this thread are also, I think, supposed to be personally insulting toward me (they're not especially effective, so I'm not 100% sure on that).

4410 said:

So basically students from Non APA accredited FSPS PsyD programs have no place on this forum, especially students who take out large student loans. We are the problem based on what everyone says is based on fact according to APPIC statistics. Basically, 1/3 of all clinical psychology students are from these programs and most of us finish our degrees and become licensed psychologists in the United States. Everyone has their points of vulnerability and I specified students from foreign countries as perhaps coming to America to attend our clinical psychology programs due to the overall high quality of programs, even program that are not APA accredited. Thank about it a minute....America is such a great country that people all over the world want to live in America, even Canadians. We value diversity and this includes different types of programs that will fullfill the needs for traditional and non traditional students. Clearly to specify that a problem exists due to data that most likely is not valid should not be allowed. There are many different types of students attending doctoral programs in clinical psychology so all types of programs are necessary. A psychologists training is individualized with interdisciplinary focus as you can't have a template that has APA stamped on the head of every student who becomes licensed as a psychologist, when a large number of students from non APA accredited programs support diversity and develop competent psychologists who become licensed. Rather than limit admissions to doctoral programs in psychology we need to encourage more students to pursue this course, regardless of going through APA or non APA accredited programs.

The petition is a bogus way of attempting to make change in doctoral level training. If it was as easy as APA saying we will correct the unbalance after reviewing the petition, it would have been done years ago. The unbalance of internships has nothing to do with APA, University or FSPS or foreign students. It has to do with factors as the economy, budgets cut, competition from master's level programs and reimbusability for training of interns. We talked about these concerns at a recent conference I attended. The doctoral degree needs to be granted before beginning internship so internships may bill for services provided for the interns. The graduate programs needs to change where the degree is granted and the EPPP is taken during the final year of graduate study, so interns may be provisionally licensed psychologists during their internships. States need to reduce licensure requirements to one year of postdoctoral training rather than having a predoctoral and a postdoctoral year of training before becoming licensed as a psychologist.

There is no simple solution to the internship unbalance. Reviewing peer reviewed journals studies is not going to solve the problem as it is multidimensional with many factors...not just FSPS or Foreign students. Coming from a Canadian, I can only laugh "Rear Reviewed"...please, why would you even go there?

Click to expand...

You are such an idiot...you should be banned form this forum on that factor alone.

erg923 said:

You are such an idiot...you should be banned form this forum on that factor alone.

Click to expand...

:troll:

Erg, stop letting this guy get to you. Don't stoop to his level by resorting to name-calling.

Psychadelic2012 said:

:troll:

Erg, stop letting this guy get to you. Don't stoop to his level by resorting to name-calling.

Click to expand...

I suspect it's well past that point. If anything, I simply shake my head now at the meaningless and idiotic drivel that comes out. I think my 12-year-old argues more logically. However, we do have new posters on SDN (and some recently) who will (and have) believed that these posts are accurate. If we all ignore him, that's great (but there would be no thread (or source of amusement and break in my lovely, boring day)... There also would be no one to filter/correct the crap that's being posted.

paramour said:

I suspect it's well past that point. If anything, I simply shake my head now at the meaningless and idiotic drivel that comes out. I think my 12-year-old argues more logically. However, we do have new posters on SDN (and some recently) who will (and have) believed that these posts are accurate. If we all ignore him, that's great (but there would be no thread (or source of amusement and break in my lovely, boring day)... There also would be no one to filter/correct the crap that's being posted.

Click to expand...

It has been going on for awhile. There was a thread several weeks ago (or longer?) where I used the "Don't feed the troll" sign along with (my favorite) icon, , on several occasions as 4410 was really on a roll. Eventually there needs to be a stopping point if 4410 keeps on posting offensive material. It is one thing to be ridiculous, worse to spread misinformation, and terrible to be unapologetically offensive.

futureapppsy2 said:

All:

Please keep it polite, civil, and professional. SDN is a pre-professional/professional forum, and therefore, you all are presumably educated adults. Feel free to disagree and discuss, but please do so in an educated, polite, and appropriate manner.

Please also note that all disciplinary action--except for bannings and probationary statuses, which are publicly viewable while in effect--is private. SDN moderators do not discuss actions taken against other users or specific posts. Be assured that the moderation team carefully reviews all reported or otherwise questionable posts and makes careful and thoughtful decisions on how to act (or not act) on each post, in accordance with our publicly viewable terms of service. If you find something to be questionable, please feel free to report it.

Also, as AA noted, the ignore feature can be a great option.

Please move this thread back to a more civil, on-topic discussion, or it will be closed.

Thanks.

Click to expand...

The problem with the "ignore" option is that it doesn't affect SDN users who are not aware of the variable quality of some users' posts.

Well, maybe I should say, the well documented inaccuracies of one user's posts.

Honestly though, this is an internet message board...nothing said on here should be taken as fact in and of itself. It's simply one avenue for individuals to browse discussions on certain topics. If some people are so gullible to believe everything said on here without verifying it in other ways, well that's kind of on them. ...And, anyone reading his posts would then see the 10+ posts of people disagreeing.

It is good to see reminders about professionalism in how you respond. Remember that internet boards are not just read by students, but also by DCTs and professors/professionals interested in and active in training.

audchik said:

Honestly though, this is an internet message board...nothing said on here should be taken as fact in and of itself. It's simply one avenue for individuals to browse discussions on certain topics. If some people are so gullible to believe everything said on here without verifying it in other ways, well that's kind of on them. ...And, anyone reading his posts would then see the 10+ posts of people disagreeing.

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There was a moderator encouraging people to use the ignore function. If people actually do that, we will not be able to see the 10+ posts of disagreement. Given that, how would a student who comes to SDN to seek knowledge and insight from experienced students/professionals be able to determine what is true and what is not? We ask questions on this forum because we tried to seek for knowledge but cannot determine what is true due to lack of experience and knowledge. Hence, we need guidance from insiders who actually have insights to answer our questions. It would be sad if this site deduces to a random internet hub of trolls feeding wrong and distrustful information.

MCParent said:

...just because they're focused on Canadians. He did expand his xenophobia in the later posts.

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I guess not all hateful and unprofessional comments are created equal? You probably need to be from a country farther away for it to be fully offensive, sorry Mike.

To get back on topic....Any program that is on probation should be avoided, as it takes a great deal of effort to not meet APA-acred. standards. As for any program that is NOT acred? They should not be a consideration until APA-acred. is given and the ink is dry. A program always needs a cohort to test the waters, but it is your career if there is a glitch and they don't get APA-acred. when you graduate. There are plenty of quality, university-based, programs that can provide a solid education that is APA-acred.

Therapist4Chnge said:

As for any program that is NOT acred? They should not be a consideration until APA-acred. is given and the ink is dry. A program always needs a cohort to test the waters, but it is your career if there is a glitch and they don't get APA-acred. when you graduate. There are plenty of quality, university-based, programs that can provide a solid education that is APA-acred.

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While I agree with most of the reasoning behind your statement, I wouldn't say that all non-APA accredited programs shouldn't be considered - most shouldn't.

I applied to Florida International University (FIU) whose professors are well respected in ADHD research, and came from prestigious APA programs (e.g., Stony Brook,Pittsburgh, Kentucky). While FIU is not accredited yet, I am sure they will be after graduating a class.

Therapist4Chnge said:

I guess not all hateful and unprofessional comments are created equal? You probably need to be from a country farther away for it to be fully offensive, sorry Mike.

Click to expand...

Heh. Yeah, evidently geographical distance determines level of offensiveness here. We would probably get some extra points if our skin was reliably a different color or if we spoke a different language (French doesn't count, apparently).

Jon Snow said:

Canadians are generally white. Mike is man's name. So white male. You can't be offensive to white males. Maybe if he were gay.

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Yeah and even then, the white male thing is pretty hard to shake in academia when it comes to any sort of discussion of oppression. Rightfully so, to an extent.

*bumped for further discussion and clarification*