cGPA 3.28, sGPA ~3.2, MCAT 36?, Montana Resident

Grouphug · May 27, 2011

NOTE: I EDITED THIS ORIGINAL POST SO IT IS MORE UP TO DATE

I was wondering what my chances are of getting into medical school and where I should apply.

graduated from BYU
Major: Neuroscience
Minor: Logic

I know my GPA is on the low side, I do have an upward trend though (2.6 freshman year to 3.8 senior year).

I just took the MCAT yesterday, I don't know how I did for 30 days, but let's assume a 36 (I got a 36 on an AAMC practice test and I feel I did even better on the real one). I think I got between a 34 and 38, so let's just say 36.

As for other parts of my application, I don't have any medical related work or volunteering, which I am a bit worried about, but I have done about 150 hours of shadowing (which I think is about 4x what the average medical student does) and from comparing to my friend who volunteered at the ER, I feel I learned approximately 10x more

I was a missionary in Brazil for 10 months.

I am a Montana resident. Where should I apply? I'm looking for a good school, I am way more interested in clinical practice than research, I am applying to mostly WICHE and WWAMI schools because I am a Montana resident, and I feel I have a better chance there.

I am interested in D.O., but I haven't shadowed or have a Letter of Recommendation from a D.O. which is required or strongly recommended, so I am leaning towards not applying to any D.O. school. The D.O. schools I am interested in are PWNU and Midwestern.

Here is a list of schools I was thinking of applying to:

U of Washington (WWAMI)
Oregon Health Sciences University (WICHE)
U of Colorado (WICHE)
U of Virginia (I have a letter writer from there, shadowed a lot of docs there)
Ohio State (lots of BYU students get in there)
Arizona Tuscon (WICHE)
Arizona Phoenix (WICHE)
Georgetown (BYU students get in there fairly well, and I have friends in D.C. and at the medical school)
Nevada (WICHE)
North Dakota (WICHE)
Creighton (Regional Private)
SLU (Regional Private)
MCWisc (Regional Private)

Is 13 enough? If no, which of these?

Texas Tech
Tulane
Loyola Stritch
Northwestern
Others?

I am going to try to volunteer at local hospital and shadow a general practitioner (b/c despite all my shadowing I have not shadowed one yet!)

Sorry for the long post, but I appreciate the help so much!

luvofgod · May 27, 2011

Grouphug said:
I was wondering what my chances are of getting into medical school and where I should apply.

graduated from BYU
Major: Neuroscience

I know my GPA is on the low side, I do have an upward trend though. Also, I took more than the minimum # of courses, will that help? Also, I am well-rounded, I took a lot of philosophy courses.

I just took the MCAT yesterday, I don't know how I did for 30 days, but let's assume a 36 (I got a 36 on an AAMC practice test and I feel I did even better on the real one). I think I got between a 34 and 38, so let's just say 36.

As for other parts of my application, I don't have any medical related work or volunteering, which I am a bit worried about, but I have done about 150 hours of shadowing (which I think is about 4x what the average medical student does) and from comparing to my friend who volunteered at the ER, I feel I learned approximately 10x more

I am a Montana resident. Where should I apply? I'm looking for a good school, I am way more interested in clinical practice than research, I am applying to mostly WICHE and WWAMI schools because I am a Montana resident, and I feel I have a better chance there.

I am interested in D.O. Do you need (or is it recommended) to shadow a D.O. doctor to apply to D.O.?

Also, what correlation is there between what medical school you go to and the quality of the residency program you get into? Is it slight, or very significant? (Sorry, this is probably addressed somewhere else, you can lead me to that if you want.)

Don't be afraid to be straightforward, I am very thick-skinned

Here is a starting list of schools I was thinking of applying to:

U of Washington (my top choice)
Oregon Health Sciences University
U of Colorado
UC San Diego (stretch?)
UC Irvine
Stanford (probably a stretch, they are more into research anyway)
U of Virginia (I have a letter writer from there, shadowed a lot of docs there)
Ohio State (lots of BYU students get in there)
Arizona Tuscon
Arizona Phoenix
Georgetown (stretch? BYU students get in there fairly well, and I have friends in D.C. and at the medical school)

Nevada?
North Dakota?
Hawaii?

And then D.O. schools?
Western?
Midwestern?

Finally, I guess this is obvious, but I don't want to apply to too many places (because I don't think I could afford the interview travel costs) but I DEFINITELY don't want to apply to too few and not get into a medical school.

Sorry for the long post, but I appreciate the help so much!

I suggest you start volunteering at your local hospital. You should also try applying to at least 5 DO schools, maybe apply to the more older, established DO schools. I think DO schools prefer letters of recommendations from DO doctors but you might want to email the admissions counselors and ask. If you indeed get a 36 MCAT score, then I don't think you'll have anything to worry about...Maybe add in Jefferson, Georgetown, George Washington, Albany, Drexel...

MT Headed · May 28, 2011

In the WICHE department, I would definitely add Nevada and North Dakota. Dirty little secret - Nevada/WICHE is much cheaper than UW/WWAMI. NoDak requires more effort since they are not AMCAS (you have to apply to get permission to get an application!), but you are considered an instate applicant for their purposes. Search SDN for the UND point system, it will help you determine if you are a competitive applicant.

In the private MD world, I would also look into SLU, Creighton, and MCWisc. There are more schools like these (emphasize clinical over research, out-of-state friendly, high % FP/IM/Peds) on the east coast, but some of them definitely show a regional bias.

As for DO, the new PNWU school in Yakima WA recruits heavily at Montana colleges and has a strong regional bias. I think they want to be the WWAMI of DO schools.

TriagePreMed · May 28, 2011

I would apply to more realistic MD schools than to Stanford, UCSD, Irvine, and Virginia. I would recommend you buy the MSAR and check out what schools are realistic for your range. I'd also consider applying to more Osteopathic schools, since they are your most realistic schools.

YouNeverKnow22 · May 28, 2011

if you had strong EC's and a MCAT 30+ you could definitely land you multiple MD interviews if you applied broadly

your problem looks like lack of strong EC's

Grouphug · May 31, 2011

Thank you to everyone for your responses.

@YouNeverKnow22: Yeah, I don't feel my EC's are great either. However, I did fail to mention that I lived in Brazil for 10 months, and I was a proselytizing missionary there.

@TriagePreMed: I agree that those schools are "reach" schools to say the least, even with a decent MCAT score of 36ish. However, perhaps Stanford, Irvine, and UCSD are not as reach because they like WICHE applicants? Also, I heard you should apply to some "reaches" because you never know, I've heard some people get rejected from their "safety" school but get into their "reach". I agree I think I should apply to more D.O. schools.

@MT Headed: In the past couple of days I have definitely decided to apply to Nevada and to North Dakota. Thank you for the advice for the other schools as well, I will look into them now! They seem to be what I am looking for!

@luvofgod: Yeah, I'm going to try to get some volunteer work at the local hospital in. Thanks for the school suggestions, I will look at those now as well. Maybe I should have done this a little earlier than May 31st

TriagePreMed · May 31, 2011

Grouphug said:
@TriagePreMed: I agree that those schools are "reach" schools to say the least, even with a decent MCAT score of 36ish. However, perhaps Stanford, Irvine, and UCSD are not as reach because they like WICHE applicants? Also, I heard you should apply to some "reaches" because you never know, I've heard some people get rejected from their "safety" school but get into their "reach". I agree I think I should apply to more D.O. schools.

It still is a complete stretch at all those schools. A 3.2 doesn't even fall within the 10th percentile. I strongly suggest you revise your list.

sector9 · May 31, 2011

Grouphug said:
I know my GPA is on the low side, I do have an upward trend though. Also, I took more than the minimum # of courses, will that help? Also, I am well-rounded, I took a lot of philosophy courses.

Upward trend will probably help. How steep is the trend? What's your GPA by semester?

It won't help a lot that you're well rounded with the philosophy courses. Perhaps a little at some schools, but I don't know.

Grouphug said:
I just took the MCAT yesterday, I don't know how I did for 30 days, but let's assume a 36 (I got a 36 on an AAMC practice test and I feel I did even better on the real one). I think I got between a 34 and 38, so let's just say 36.

Hopefully it went well. Come back to bump this thread when you get your score back

Grouphug said:
As for other parts of my application, I don't have any medical related work or volunteering, which I am a bit worried about, but I have done about 150 hours of shadowing (which I think is about 4x what the average medical student does) and from comparing to my friend who volunteered at the ER, I feel I learned approximately 10x more

Kudos on all the shadowing (it's about 3X the average applicant). Catalystik (an adviser who frequents the forums) recommends shadowing a primary care doctor. Did you do that too?

Grouphug said:
I am a Montana resident. Where should I apply? I'm looking for a good school, I am way more interested in clinical practice than research, I am applying to mostly WICHE and WWAMI schools because I am a Montana resident, and I feel I have a better chance there.

Go for the schools that have seats for Montana residents. Last year, only 115 people applied MD from Montana. 56 of them got in to some MD school.

Grouphug said:
I am interested in D.O. Do you need (or is it recommended) to shadow a D.O. doctor to apply to D.O.?

For a lot of DO schools, it is required to have a letter of recommendation from a DO. That means you have to shadow one, in most cases. Check out the list here
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AkQjgkrQwlmCdDdPRG15djh5NGJfRFhoVWdLdVJIaFE&hl=en

Grouphug said:
Also, what correlation is there between what medical school you go to and the quality of the residency program you get into? Is it slight, or very significant? (Sorry, this is probably addressed somewhere else, you can lead me to that if you want.)

This is addressed elsewhere.
http://journals.lww.com/academicmed..._Criteria_for_Residency__Results_of_a.24.aspx See Table 2
http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty.pdf See page 3
The point is that it matters to some residency directors, but not all, and there are a lot more important factors.

Grouphug said:
Here is a starting list of schools I was thinking of applying to:

U of Washington (my top choice)
Oregon Health Sciences University
U of Colorado
UC San Diego (stretch?)
UC Irvine
Stanford (probably a stretch, they are more into research anyway)
U of Virginia (I have a letter writer from there, shadowed a lot of docs there)
Ohio State (lots of BYU students get in there)
Arizona Tuscon
Arizona Phoenix
Georgetown (stretch? BYU students get in there fairly well, and I have friends in D.C. and at the medical school)

Nevada?
North Dakota?
Hawaii?

I would apply to the schools with seats for Montana residents, then check out the MSAR for MD schools with a 10th percentile GPA below your cumulative GPA. You should apply broadly if you are serious about getting in to an MD school.

Grouphug said:
And then D.O. schools?
Western?
Midwestern?

I would increase this list a lot.

Grouphug said:
Finally, I guess this is obvious, but I don't want to apply to too many places (because I don't think I could afford the interview travel costs) but I DEFINITELY don't want to apply to too few and not get into a medical school.

That's the conundrum, but I think you should apply very broadly due to your low GPA and your low ECs.

Grouphug said:
Thank you to everyone for your responses.

@YouNeverKnow22: Yeah, I don't feel my EC's are great either. However, I did fail to mention that I lived in Brazil for 10 months, and I was a proselytizing missionary there.

@TriagePreMed: I agree that those schools are "reach" schools to say the least, even with a decent MCAT score of 36ish. However, perhaps Stanford, Irvine, and UCSD are not as reach because they like WICHE applicants? Also, I heard you should apply to some "reaches" because you never know, I've heard some people get rejected from their "safety" school but get into their "reach". I agree I think I should apply to more D.O. schools.

@MT Headed: In the past couple of days I have definitely decided to apply to Nevada and to North Dakota. Thank you for the advice for the other schools as well, I will look into them now! They seem to be what I am looking for!

@luvofgod: Yeah, I'm going to try to get some volunteer work at the local hospital in. Thanks for the school suggestions, I will look at those now as well. Maybe I should have done this a little earlier than May 31st

Start volunteering ASAP. If it looks like you'll be able to start soon, then wait until you start before you apply so that you can list it on your AMCAS. However, this is a trade off because students with low stats should apply as early as possible. I really don't think you should apply to Stanford or many of the UC's. Once again, check MSAR for 10th %ile.

JRG · May 31, 2011

Good Job on the MCAT, I hope you did as well as you think! Also being a Montana resident and going through my MSAR over and over again revising my school list I feel I can give you a little insight. You said you don't want to apply to too many schools, which is understandable considering the costs, so I would reevaluate UCSD and Irvine unless you have ties to those areas. WICHE won't help you much with California schools. In their places maybe put some private schools that are more OOS friendly. Possibly Tulane, Loyola Stritch, etc... Also I think it would be a good idea to apply to UND and Nevada since they are Montana/WICHE friendly. Just remember UND doesn't participate in AMCAS. If you want you could also apply to New Mexico through WICHE but you have to apply early decision program and I'm not sure the deadline on that.

P.M. me if you have any questions about my school list (since I am also a Montana resident applying this cycle).

Oh and I just thought I would let you know that I'm almost positive you meet the criteria to be auto-interviewed through WWAMI in Bozeman (next Jan-Feb) if your MCAT is in fact in that ball park.

Work on your clinical experience, maybe shadow/volunteer in some underserved areas. Washington and WICHE schools love that (or any school for that matter).

Grouphug · Jun 1, 2011

So, based on what you (and my friend in medical school) have suggested, this is the new list:

(It is basically the old list, except dropping the Cali schools and adding North Dakota, Nevada, and Georgetown.)

U of Washington
Oregon Health and Sciences University
U of Colorado
Arizona Tuscon
Arizona Phoenix
North Dakota
Nevada
Ohio State
Georgetown
U of Virginia

That is 10. I should prob apply to 5 more. Then which of these (or other) should I apply to? SLU, Creighton, MCWisc, Tulane, Loyola Stritch, PNWU (or other D.O. schools?),

Jefferson, Georgetown, George Washington, Albany, Drexel were also mentioned...

Oh yeah, and the GPA trend is pretty steep. I'm too lazy to break it down by semester, but let's just say I got about a 2.7 freshman year and about a 3.8 senior year.

Thanks again for the help

luvofgod · Jun 1, 2011

Grouphug said:
So, based on what you (and my friend in medical school) have suggested, this is the new list:

(It is basically the old list, except dropping the Cali schools and adding North Dakota, Nevada, and Georgetown.)

U of Washington
Oregon Health and Sciences University
U of Colorado
Arizona Tuscon
Arizona Phoenix
North Dakota
Nevada
Ohio State
Georgetown
U of Virginia

That is 10. I should prob apply to 5 more. Then which of these (or other) should I apply to? SLU, Creighton, MCWisc, Tulane, Loyola Stritch, PNWU (or other D.O. schools?),

Jefferson, Georgetown, George Washington, Albany, Drexel were also mentioned...

Oh yeah, and the GPA trend is pretty steep. I'm too lazy to break it down by semester, but let's just say I got about a 2.7 freshman year and about a 3.8 senior year.

Thanks again for the help

I've seen people apply to Creighton, Tufts, George Washington, Albany, and Drexel with lower stats than yours and receive interviews. They had a nice MCAT score and a lot of volunteering, research, and leadership to compensate for it though. It's great that you have a steep upward trend in your gpa

Osteopathic school suggestions:

PNWU, Western COMP-Lebanon, DMU, KCUMB, KCOM, CCOM, and NOVA.

I feel you'll have a good chance at these schools with your predicted MCAT score range. Good luck!

sector9 · Jun 1, 2011

I just thought I'd add that University of Washington has a "weighted" GPA that they calculate based on your freshman, sophomore, and junior years. It should help you out, since you have an upward trend. Hopefully most of your bad grades were only in freshman year.

You can read about how they calculate it here (it will make you come up with your AMCAS GPA by year though!)
http://uwmedicine.washington.edu/Ed...ions/Pages/FrequentlyAskedQuestions.aspx#mcat

Good luck! :luck:

Grouphug · Jun 1, 2011

It may or may not help. Normally the weighted GPA would help my situation, but since UW only looks at the first 3 years (as stated on the link you gave me) it actually may really hurt me, since it won't include my 3.8 senior year in the advanced classes.

sector9 said:
I just thought I'd add that University of Washington has a "weighted" GPA that they calculate based on your freshman, sophomore, and junior years. It should help you out, since you have an upward trend. Hopefully most of your bad grades were only in freshman year.

You can read about how they calculate it here (it will make you come up with your AMCAS GPA by year though!)
http://uwmedicine.washington.edu/Ed...ions/Pages/FrequentlyAskedQuestions.aspx#mcat

Good luck!

Grouphug · Jun 1, 2011

Sorry for all the posts, but I have basically decided on these 13 schools

U of Washington
Oregon Health and Sciences University
U of Colorado
Arizona Tuscon
Arizona Phoenix
North Dakota
Nevada
Ohio State
Georgetown
U of Virginia
Creighton
SLU
MCWisc

Should I just apply to those 13? Or a few more? If a few more, than which 2-3 should I apply to from this list (and why)?

Texas Tech
Loyola Stritch
Northwestern
Tulane
Others?

I was considering strongly PWNU and Midwestern, but I think since I don't have a letter of recommendation form a D.O., these may actually be just as hard to get into as an M.D. school. Also, then I wouldn't have to fill out an AACOMAS, not that this is a big deal.

This is also probably addressed elsewhere, but how does a school's U.S. news and world report rankings relate to how good of a medical school it actually is? I ask because UW is rated #1 in clinical practice for the past 17 years, which is what I am interested in, and I'm wondering how close that approximates the truth. I've also heard that these rankings do not matter at all. And not even considering the rankings, UW is my first choice anyway b/c I like the idea of spending a year in Bozeman and then 3 in Seattle. I also like how it is close to my family. So I guess what I'm trying to say is, if I have a good chance at UW (which I don't know if I do or not) should I fret about applying to a lot of other schools? Or the 13 on my list will probably be fine?

Again, this is probably addressed somewhere else (and you can just give me a link b/c I can't find it) but what else determines how good a medical school is? The percentage of graduates who get their first choice in the match? The average indebtedness of a graduate (which may be a better indicator than tuition costs)? The average board scores of students in the school? WHERE WOULD I FIND THIS INFORMATION? Also, which schools would residency directors consider high-profile on this list? UW? U Virginia? Georgetown?

Sorry for all the questions, just trying to get this done today (it is June 1) and even more importantly, get it done right.

sector9 · Jun 1, 2011

Grouphug said:
This is also probably addressed elsewhere, but how does a school's U.S. news and world report rankings relate to how good of a medical school it actually is? I ask because UW is rated #1 in clinical practice for the past 17 years, which is what I am interested in, and I'm wondering how close that approximates the truth. I've also heard that these rankings do not matter at all. And not even considering the rankings, UW is my first choice anyway b/c I like the idea of spending a year in Bozeman and then 3 in Seattle. I also like how it is close to my family. So I guess what I'm trying to say is, if I have a good chance at UW (which I don't know if I do or not) should I fret about applying to a lot of other schools? Or the 13 on my list will probably be fine?

Again, this is probably addressed somewhere else (and you can just give me a link b/c I can't find it) but what else determines how good a medical school is? The percentage of graduates who get their first choice in the match? The average indebtedness of a graduate (which may be a better indicator than tuition costs)? The average board scores of students in the school? WHERE WOULD I FIND THIS INFORMATION? Also, which schools would residency directors consider high-profile on this list? UW? U Virginia? Georgetown?

Most people disregard the US News "Primary Care" rankings. People care more about the "Research" rankings in US News (U of W is #9). Other people like the raw NIH funding per school ranking, which is here http://www.brimr.org/NIH_Awards/2010/SchoolOfMedicine_2010.xls (U of W is #10). I think that I read somewhere that the ~top 30 schools are the ones that are "highly regarded" and the others are seen as being pretty even.

Here's a thread relating to this
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=816283

Basically, it's up to you how much it matters. However, in your situation, I would just try to get in to SOME school that isn't in the Caribbean. Your GPA is low for U.S. MD schools and your EC's are kinda low, so my personal opinion is that you should be grateful for any school and not worry too much about rankings.

If you want to compare schools, here's one answer about how to pick schools that a student was accepted to. I think it is similar to how to pick schools to apply to
http://www.studentdoctor.net/answers/42/how-do-i-choose-between-multiple-medical-schools

Other resources:
http://web.jhu.edu/prepro/health/Applicants/choosing_schools.html
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=824137 There's a section on "Pre-submission" here

cGPA 3.28, sGPA ~3.2, MCAT 36?, Montana Resident

Grouphug

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luvofgod

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MT Headed

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TriagePreMed

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YouNeverKnow22

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Grouphug

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TriagePreMed

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sector9

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JRG

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