"The Customer Is Always Right" Kills

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Birdstrike

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The Customer Is Always Right" Kills


I'd like to start off this thread by saying "thank you" to the following geniuses:

Joshua J. Fenton, MD, MPH; Anthony F. Jerant, MD; Klea D. Bertakis, MD, MPH; Peter Franks, MD

for their recent article, "The Cost of Satisfaction- A National Study of Patient Satisfaction, Health Care Utilization, Expenditures and Mortality." (Arch Intern Med. 2012;172(5):405-411).


You have exposed the truth, that those of us in the EDs know and have lived. You have found and shown that the business mantra, "The Customer Is Always Right" does not apply to emergency departments or health care. You have shown to be true, that which should be obvious. That although patients should be treated with respect and dignity, they don't always know what's best for them when it comes to their treatment or healthcare, and that:

It is actually a dereliction of our duty as physicians to blindly "satisfy" a patients wishes without standing up for what we know, and have been trained to know, is "best" for them.

For what a patient "wants", isn't always what they need, or what is right. You have exposed this obsession to be exactly what it is: An obsession to line the pockets of hospital administrators with greater profits and bigger bonuses, with NO REGARD to increasing quality of care, with an INCREASE IN MORTALITY as the cost, not to the hospital administrators, but to the patients.

"Conclusion: In a nationally representative sample, higher patient satisfaction was associated with less emergency department use but with greater inpatient use, higher overall health care and prescription drug expenditures, and increased mortality."

"Greater inpatient use" and "higher overall health care and prescription expenditures" and "increased mortality", translates to:



More patients, spending more money and more likely to die


Really, most of all it is just plain sad and wrong, because we've know it all along, and nobody would listen. To the hospital administrators profiting from this:

We have known that when a patient comes to the ED, demanding their fifth CT scan of the abdomen, when they're already had 4 in the past month and they have normal labs and a normal exam and no change in their status that they don't need another one, despite the fact that another one will satisfy their anxiety more than our words, and that another dose of radiation is bad for them. But some have caved in, due to your pressure to "satisfy everyone" at the PATIENTS OWN expense and have done what they were "told to do" to make your numbers look good, for fear of being replaced by "better team players".

We have known that when a patient comes to the ED demanding inappropriate doses and quantities of pain medicines, showing every "red flag" aberrant behavior possible, that often it is not what is best to "satisfy" the patient with active addiction. That sometimes treatment for the disease of addiction is best, most right, and healthiest, yet not most satisfying. Some have caved to your pressures and threats of "canceling contract" and done what is most satisfying, yet WORSE for the patients health. You say, "Oh no, we'd NEVER tell you how to treat your patients", yet you apply pressure every day to do just that.

We have known that, when a patient demands inappropriate treatment with antibiotics for viruses, that a prescription exposes them to the risk of potentially serious allergic reaction, drug side effects and the breeding of MRSA-like superbug infections. Yet many good physicians have caved to your pressures and threats to "get in line", "don't screw up our Press Gainey scores" or "you'll lose your contract", to achieve unrealistic patient satisfaction scores that have NO QUALIFIERS and equate "he didn't give me more blankets" with "a life lost". Your surveys equate "I waited too long on in the ED on Christmas eve to have my stubbed toe checked" with "a fatality that shouldn't have occurred". Your surveys equate "the nurse rolled her eyes at me when I asked for splenda in my coffee" with "an emergency that shouldn't have been missed".

However, in our world of life, death, tragedy, trauma and time pressure, those things are not the same. To you a lost "customer" is a lost customer, even if we were busy saving a life, and too busy to get blankets because, you didn't have money in the "budget" to pay for a "blankets-and-coffee tech". We know there is plenty of money left in the budget. We're not stupid.

Yet a life saved, that otherwise would have been lost, can never counterbalance an unqualified, and unfiltered complaint that may have come from a physician not ordering a test that may have put a patient needlessly at risk.

What you're doing is madness, it's terrible, it's insane and bad for patients. You're pressuring us to do what is in many cases bad for people, for profit. It is wrong.

We know that pressuring for admission, stress testing and a repeat heart cath in a patient who is very anxious and demanding one, yet DOESN'T need one, exposes them to a significant risk of death, renal injury from IV dye, coronary dissection and perforation, hematoma and pseudoaneursym, from an unnecessary procedure, but you don't care. We get it.

You just keep pushing, pushing and pushing because you know doctors are rule followers and will generally "do what they're told". You know that on the surface, the patients love it because it makes them "feel good" even if in many cases, it puts them at risk. You'll maintain course, as long as it makes you mad money and as long as you can pull our strings.

Has the fact that a major medical journal has exposed that this business model (and let's expose it for exactly what it is, a business model) may actually kill people, caused you to panic, hold emergency meetings to change course and reformulate a new model of measuring quality of care that wasn't devised for burger restaurants?

No.

We know, you're making too much money. We get it. Only when the lawyers pick up on it and the class action lawsuits start piling up will you back off. But, we know, "its not a big deal" to you. It's the cost of doing business and you never have to give a spent bonus back. We get it. Times are good for you. Health care is still booming.

Again, "bravo" and thank you to the following geniuses who asked the question and insisted on publishing the results, when they probably could have found a way to make lots more money by offering to bury the results at the request of those who have the most money to lose:

Joshua J. Fenton, MD, MPH; Anthony F. Jerant, MD; Klea D. Bertakis, MD, MPH; Peter Franks, MD

Their article, "The Cost of Satisfaction. A National Study of Patient Satisfaction, Health Care Utilization, Expenditures, and Mortality", can be found here, read it:

http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/con...ract/172/5/405

Also, here's another article that did not find any significant correlation of mortality (increase or decrease) with increased patient satisfaction, but notably found no improvement in the quality of myocardial infarction care or survival, from Circulation, "Patient Satisfaction and Its Relationship With Quality and Outcomes of Care After Acute Myocardial Infarction", here:

http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/...ull#abstract-1


Again, patients should always be treated with respect and dignity. Providing blankets, coffee, tea, snacks and other comfort items are fine, if you commit to paying for patient concierges to provide the service as separate from their health care decision making. However, to have a "Customer Is Always Right" policy, is wrong and dangerous. Why? Because, sometimes what is most "satisfying" from a patient perspective, is not the "healthiest" and only the physician has the training, knowledge, duty and moral obligation to determine what is.

__________________
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Thanks or the post!
I like how you think!!
 
This is an article that we all need to be able to quote off the top of our heads. Print it, highlight the conclusion and put it in your CEO/CNO/CMO's mailbox.
 
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If I could make that Like button bigger, I would. These articles need to be widely distributed and in the public media. More of these sent to admins who solely focus on press ganeys while hypocritically wanting to cut down on repeat visits and repeat admissions (read pain seekers, people who don't give a crap about taking their meds and expect a miracle fix every single time they decompensate) etc etc etc rant coming.
 
Meh. If I owned an ER or were to open a free standing ER, I would still want to have high patient satisfaction scores. Patients pick which hospital they come to,. I want them to pick mine.
There are many systemic issues we need to address, patient satisfaction scores are just annoying not malignant.

I don't think patient satisfaction scores are why we do unnecessary CT scans or prescribe antibiotics for viruses. Whether or not we give antibiotics for viral illness doesn't have much effect on patient satisfaction scores, at least, there are lots of studies suggesting as much--> http://www.med.unc.edu/emergmed/old-content/files/ong.pdf
there is one article, I've read several that point to the same conclusion.
 
You want certain patients to pick yours. The nonpaying, drug seeking patients, and the noncompliant patients are not what you or your colleagues want to see every day.
You want paying, relatively healthy, high billing but low work patients. PG doesn't have a way of teasing those patients out.

And no, there are just as many studies out there that argue patients that don't get their own expectations, regardless of how much time you spend teaching them, rank you lower on their scores. So, the ones who ask for or expect ABx and don't get them will certainly rank you lower.
 
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When I review my bad score surveys a recurring theme is: didn't give me (insert ct/X-ray here), didn't prescribe pain meds (just not narcs), and a LOT of lack of abx complaints!
Now, I DO talk to my patients and discuss what and why I do or don't do.
What really PISSES me off, is that these patients actually SEEM to understand and seem thankful at the time (I unfortunately can remember when I have looked up the charts).
I sell my soul out these every shift to make these people happy and to get stiffed by just a few can screw your scores. And these scores are like bad credit...the y stick with ya. This really takes my job sat to the toilet, because I really try hard to only get screwed.

I wonder, if patients "choose" not to go to x...when ER y gets over crowded and wait times go up etc, would things just equal out?

Can we get rid of this? I know we can't... But it is not a small reason why the specialty will be loosing a good EP when the means/opportunity arises.
 
Meh. If I owned an ER or were to open a free standing ER, I would still want to have high patient satisfaction scores. Patients pick which hospital they come to,. I want them to pick mine.
There are many systemic issues we need to address, patient satisfaction scores are just annoying not malignant.

I don't think patient satisfaction scores are why we do unnecessary CT scans or prescribe antibiotics for viruses. Whether or not we give antibiotics for viral illness doesn't have much effect on patient satisfaction scores, at least, there are lots of studies suggesting as much--> http://www.med.unc.edu/emergmed/old-content/files/ong.pdf
there is one article, I've read several that point to the same conclusion.

I don't think anyone suggests treating patients like dirt. Treating a patient as you would want your family treated is a common mantra that leads to good medicine. Good medicine leads to a patient who trusts you and will return to you to seek care in the future. The larger question that the Fenton paper alludes to is that the traditional business model doesn't apply well in the medical system. Sometimes what the patient wants is precisely part of the disease process. i.e. The customer is not always right. While there may not be a direct causation between writing a rx/ordering a test and improved customer service scores, the Fenton paper shows a definite correlation. The direct cause may not be that far off. There was a follow up editorial in the following issue of Archives of IM, February 13, 2012. doi:10.1001 by Brenda E. Sirovich, MD that further alluded to the way that this may happen. Unlike other services and purchased items (washing machines, hairdressers, plasma televisions or even their airlines) where patients have some sort of idea how well the service/item is performing, with medicine they have a limited understanding of true performance. So while the customer service score (PG), may not be directly be the cause of increased mortality in this population, the patients satisfaction with seemingly adverse outcomes of potentially excessive medical care may be the cause. To the lay person, more is better. Think of the PSA and how often you hear a patient speak about having their cancer caught early so that they could have the all important intervention (prostatectomy) and it's associated complications. You and I know that the false positive rate for PSA is abysmal (30-40% optimistically). To the patient view, false positives and complications are just the price you pay for what they perceive as good patient care. You and I know better. This is the finding in the Fenton paper that is so important.
 
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and a LOT of lack of abx complaints!

I've thought about this: want to get you guys' take on this:

With a truly miserable URI, even if it is viral... what do you think about short courses of steroids just to help alleviate some of the misery. That way, the patient "gets" something to help, and its not the antibiotics that could ultimately cause greater harm than good.

I think it might be a good gambit to defusing the "I want antibiotics" situation. Say something to the patient like:

"I really feel that antibiotics will do you more harm than good. They kill off the "good" bacteria that try to out-compete the "bad" bacteria and open you up for different types of infections. However, I can give you something that won't kill the virus, but may help you feel better while your body does the job."

Then give 'em 20mg prednisone x 2-3 days.


Thoughts?
 
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When I review my bad score surveys a recurring theme is: didn't give me (insert ct/X-ray here), didn't prescribe pain meds (just not narcs), and a LOT of lack of abx complaints!
Now, I DO talk to my patients and discuss what and why I do or don't do.
What really PISSES me off, is that these patients actually SEEM to understand and seem thankful at the time (I unfortunately can remember when I have looked up the charts).
I sell my soul out these every shift to make these people happy and to get stiffed by just a few can screw your scores. And these scores are like bad credit...the y stick with ya. This really takes my job sat to the toilet, because I really try hard to only get screwed.

I wonder, if patients "choose" not to go to x...when ER y gets over crowded and wait times go up etc, would things just equal out?

Can we get rid of this? I know we can't... But it is not a small reason why the specialty will be loosing a good EP when the means/opportunity arises.

If you start your scripting early in the encounter, it makes things go much more smoothly at d/c. Every belly pain gets a talk after the history and before the physical that in the ED we look for things you need to be admitted to the hospital or have surgery to fix. During the physical, if it's a benign abdomen I say "you don't have the type of abdominal exam that makes me think a CT is going to tell us what is wrong". For febrile kids, if I'm doing testing then I'm specifically stating that I'm looking for bacterial infections that would need antibiotics, etc. It doesn't work for everyone, but since I've started doing that the number of pitched battles I've fought over not doing/giving something have fallen 90%. It's easy to blame low PGs on malignantly entitled patients that wouldn't be happy if you cured them instantly of metastatic cancer for free, but that's not usually the case. It's usually a combination of subconscious signals you're sending out and the facility as a whole dissatisfying the patient. If everyone but you has good PGs then it's probably the first case and it's something that's going to haunt you everywhere (even disregarding PG, you're more likely to get sued if you routinely piss patients off). If only the director or your slowest doc have good PGs, then you're probably being punished by association due to institutional factors. In this case, your director needs to be making it crystal clear to your C-suite that there are systemic problems that require systemic solutons.

If you find yourself constantly battling patients, something is wrong. Either change the patients by finding a shop that's a better fit or change yourself.
 
I've thought about this: want to get you guys' take on this:

With a truly miserable URI, even if it is viral... what do you think about short courses of steroids just to help alleviate some of the misery. That way, the patient "gets" something to help, and its not the antibiotics that could ultimately cause greater harm than good.

I think it might be a good gambit to defusing the "I want antibiotics" situation. Say something to the patient like:

"I really feel that antibiotics will do you more harm than good. They kill off the "good" bacteria that try to out-compete the "bad" bacteria and open you up for different types of infections. However, I can give you something that won't kill the virus, but may help you feel better while your body does the job."

Then give 'em 20mg prednisone x 2-3 days.


Thoughts?

I'm a huge fan of albuterol for the paroxysmal coughing from a URI (that's not clearly the result of post-nasal drip). There's some weak evidence behind it, and the patient gets that "something's been done" and "the doc cares about how I feel" feeling without contributing to antibiotic resistance and the epidemic increase in community-acquird C. diff.
I see enough diabetics or bordeline diabetics that concern about hyperglycemia has kept me from going down your path. Also, what do you do in 2-3 days when they're still symptomatic? I tell everyone I see that their symptoms are going to last 7-10 days, but I still see a lot of patients that are on day 4 of sx and day 2 of abx for a URI coming in because they feel like they should be better and aren't.
 
Good point about the diabetics/borderline diabetics. I guess I've always considered it just for 'healthy' people. Still, though - 20mg is such a small dose, and for so short.

I'm hoping that the initial relief that they get will "carry them thru to resolution" and maybe their symptoms will actually be better in 3-4 days.

It angers me how MANY people we have that are just so... fat. Its just unacceptable. I got into a conversation w/ one of my attendings the other day, and the gist of his argument was - "But in a healthy young person, why even order the labs that you want to order?"

My reply was - "Young people aren't healthy."
 
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I'm a huge fan of albuterol for the paroxysmal coughing from a URI (that's not clearly the result of post-nasal drip). There's some weak evidence behind it, and the patient gets that "something's been done" and "the doc cares about how I feel" feeling without contributing to antibiotic resistance and the epidemic increase in community-acquird C. diff.
I see enough diabetics or bordeline diabetics that concern about hyperglycemia has kept me from going down your path. Also, what do you do in 2-3 days when they're still symptomatic? I tell everyone I see that their symptoms are going to last 7-10 days, but I still see a lot of patients that are on day 4 of sx and day 2 of abx for a URI coming in because they feel like they should be better and aren't.

Agreed. Many patients with a viral URI have sub-clinical airway obstruction and a short course of albuterol may actually improve symptoms somewhat. At worst, it probably won't hurt (less likely than C. diff from unnecessary abx anyway). Also, it is really arid in my practice region and recommendations for a humidifier can also help improve the patients symptoms, especially in the pediatric population. Quoting the Fat Man "The best medicine is the art of doing nothing". As Arcan57 alluded to, communication is the key. If you are planning on doing less (in the way of diagnostics and rx) then make up for it by spending some time on basic patient education and explaining your thought process. Your PG scores (for whatever they are worth) should stay relatively stable (unless you are just an all around f..ktard in which case you are hosed) without forcing you to turn into a licensed drug dealer and sell yourself out....
 
If you start your scripting early in the encounter, it makes things go much more smoothly at d/c. Every belly pain gets a talk after the history and before the physical that in the ED we look for things you need to be admitted to the hospital or have surgery to fix. During the physical, if it's a benign abdomen I say "you don't have the type of abdominal exam that makes me think a CT is going to tell us what is wrong". For febrile kids, if I'm doing testing then I'm specifically stating that I'm looking for bacterial infections that would need antibiotics, etc. It doesn't work for everyone, but since I've started doing that the number of pitched battles I've fought over not doing/giving something have fallen 90%. It's easy to blame low PGs on malignantly entitled patients that wouldn't be happy if you cured them instantly of metastatic cancer for free, but that's not usually the case. It's usually a combination of subconscious signals you're sending out and the facility as a whole dissatisfying the patient. If everyone but you has good PGs then it's probably the first case and it's something that's going to haunt you everywhere (even disregarding PG, you're more likely to get sued if you routinely piss patients off). If only the director or your slowest doc have good PGs, then you're probably being punished by association due to institutional factors. In this case, your director needs to be making it crystal clear to your C-suite that there are systemic problems that require systemic solutons.

If you find yourself constantly battling patients, something is wrong. Either change the patients by finding a shop that's a better fit or change yourself.

As impossible as it may seem, I actually do go out of my way to try to set expectations early.
And what gets me, much more than the scores, is the discordance between the way I and the nurses, and what "appears" to be the patients see the encounters.
I mean, i feel, honestly, that my patients really enjoy my care. I get letters to the hospital to that regard and many go out of their way to tell me...but my PG are in the 10-20 percentile!! Please don't take this as an arrogant notion, it's just if I thought 10-20s was what I was giving, then I would accept that;)
I take courses on this, read pointers and talk with 99th percentile docs. I try my best to bring this to the bedside, but I have only so much to give.
Of note, I remember having a long discussion with a patient as to why she didn't need a ct. She seemed really thankful and appreciative of the time and discussion...1-2s straight through the PG!!! And commented on my ineptitude to not order the CT!
 
As impossible as it may seem, I actually do go out of my way to try to set expectations early.
And what gets me, much more than the scores, is the discordance between the way I and the nurses, and what "appears" to be the patients see the encounters.
I mean, i feel, honestly, that my patients really enjoy my care. I get letters to the hospital to that regard and many go out of their way to tell me...but my PG are in the 10-20 percentile!! Please don't take this as an arrogant notion, it's just if I thought 10-20s was what I was giving, then I would accept that;)
I take courses on this, read pointers and talk with 99th percentile docs. I try my best to bring this to the bedside, but I have only so much to give.
Of note, I remember having a long discussion with a patient as to why she didn't need a ct. She seemed really thankful and appreciative of the time and discussion...1-2s straight through the PG!!! And commented on my ineptitude to not order the CT!

The solution is simple then, and you know what it is. Order a CT on every abdominal pain, or when requested. Give a "Z-pack" for every cold and flu, because that's what they expect. The patients are not there for your knowledge, your expertise, or your advice. They come because they want a Z-pack, because they always feel better after one. While you're at it, give narcs to everyone who requests it. Since the hospital obviously doesn't give a crap about substandard care, then you shouldn't either. As long as the hospital CEO is hitting thier abitrary metrics and a big fat bonus check, you shouldn't worry. Your job will be safe, so who cares about your ethics, the safety of your patients, or cost containment?
 
This is actually a quite a difficult issue for me as I want to do the best thing for people but also realize that low PG scores puts you on the chopping block.

One thing I've started doing (it seems to work) is to get the patient to tell me not to give them abx. It works almost every time, maybe they hate me though. Often I'll say something like, "yeah so I see a lot of people in here who just want antibiotics, you don't strike me as that type, I think you just want to feel better."

At least 75% of the time they will say something like "oh no, I don't want them if they aren't needed."

I'm a big believer in the 1 day work note in those situations then I give them a big song and dance about how important it is to "rest and let your body fight this thing." Who knows what they write on their surveys though.

What really sucks is that this is, actually, what patients want. This is what the market has determined. They don't want your opinion, they already know what they want when they walk in the door.
 
The solution is simple then, and you know what it is. Order a CT on every abdominal pain, or when requested. Give a "Z-pack" for every cold and flu, because that's what they expect. The patients are not there for your knowledge, your expertise, or your advice. They come because they want a Z-pack, because they always feel better after one. While you're at it, give narcs to everyone who requests it. Since the hospital obviously doesn't give a crap about substandard care, then you shouldn't either. As long as the hospital CEO is hitting thier abitrary metrics and a big fat bonus check, you shouldn't worry. Your job will be safe, so who cares about your ethics, the safety of your patients, or cost containment?

I realize that this isn't even that cynical of a take on the situation.

There is really no way to track our performance in the ED other than the money we make and how happy we are.
 
The bigger problem is if, and most likely when, CMS decides ED payment is directly tied to satisfaction, like they have other payments scheduled.
Then, we will be stuck between the hospital not getting paid for the imaging/labs/whatever because it isn't indicated, vs lower reimbursement because the patients aren't satisfied with not getting it.
This is America, patients want their Viagra to come with a hand job as well. And if they don't get it, by god they'll write their congressman.
 
The bigger problem is if, and most likely when, CMS decides ED payment is directly tied to satisfaction, like they have other payments scheduled.
Then, we will be stuck between the hospital not getting paid for the imaging/labs/whatever because it isn't indicated, vs lower reimbursement because the patients aren't satisfied with not getting it.
This is America, patients want their Viagra to come with a hand job as well. And if they don't get it, by god they'll write their congressman.

Handjobs and percocet would be a pretty tough combo to beat, PG-wise.
 
How do you feel about just writing them a script for abx and advising them that you would suggest not filling it unless they aren't feeling better in 3 days?

If they want the abx bad enough, they have them and fill them and take them. Stops them from making another visit to another doc 3 hours later. If they listen to you, then you helped prevent diarrhea, congrats.
 
How do you feel about just writing them a script for abx and advising them that you would suggest not filling it unless they aren't feeling better in 3 days?

If they want the abx bad enough, they have them and fill them and take them. Stops them from making another visit to another doc 3 hours later. If they listen to you, then you helped prevent diarrhea, congrats.

I don't want this to come off as directed at you, BLove; but that is a really bad idea.

The decision tree in 99% of people's heads is "Antibiotics is good (sic), and if I take them they improve my chances of getting better. People take antibiotics all the time, and I never see anyone get sick from them... so there's no downside, no matter what that doc says... and even if he's right... it won't happen to me."

A number of attendings around my neck of the woods do just exactly what you're suggesting. I'm willing to wager dollars to donuts that over 95% of those abx scripts get filled as soon as they can... because of the "perception of possibility of a speedier return to health".
 
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On a related note: the one cognitive error that I see students/junior residents make all the time is make the assumption that the average ED patient has at least a basic set of smarts and is capable of using logic and reason to make decisions in their best interest. I used to be that way, because I liked to believe that "I had faith in people in general".

Your average ED patient isn't "the average person". Not by a long shot.
 
I don't want this to come off as directed at you, BLove; but that is a really bad idea.

The decision tree in 99% of people's heads is "Antibiotics is good (sic), and if I take them they improve my chances of getting better. People take antibiotics all the time, and I never see anyone get sick from them... so there's no downside, no matter what that doc says... and even if he's right... it won't happen to me."

A number of attendings around my neck of the woods do just exactly what you're suggesting. I'm willing to wager dollars to donuts that over 95% of those abx scripts get filled as soon as they can... because of the "perception of possibility of a speedier return to health".

I agree. We have a couple of docs who do this as well. It's a patient satisfier, but I'd bet everything I own that a majority of them take these antibiotics within 24 hours.

As I stated above, most of these cough/cold/URI patients fall into three categories:

1. Patients who know they "need" antibiotics to get better, and come in for that purpose alone.

2. Patients who really think this cough/cold/flu is going to kill them, and so want a House-style workup with tons of labs and imaging. They really believe that they have some sort of exotic plague that's unique to medical science.

3. Patients who need reassurance.

The patients in the third group are a minority, and it's a relief when I take care of them. Typically they are reasonable, rational people who will listen to what you tell them. The first two groups are irrational, and unless you meet their irrational expectations they will give you massive fail on the Press-Ganey.
 
2. Patients who really think this cough/cold/flu is going to kill them, and so want a House-style workup with tons of labs and imaging. They really believe that they have some sort of exotic plague that's unique to medical science.

Had a patient the other day who had a classic viral URI. Cough, rhinorrhea, congestion. No fever. No weird colored sputum. Cough wasn't even productive.

I explained to them - "yadda yadda... viruses... seasons changing... increased person-to-person contact... viral infection.."

The first thing the patient said was - "Yeah... but what causes a viral infection?"

*facepalm*

The next thing they wanted to have happen was to have someone come to their home and swab the moldy walls in the basement to see what it was that was causing their (clearly unrelated) symptoms. It took all of me to say - "No, it doesn't work the way they show it on House."
 
Had a patient the other day who had a classic viral URI. Cough, rhinorrhea, congestion. No fever. No weird colored sputum. Cough wasn't even productive.

I explained to them - "yadda yadda... viruses... seasons changing... increased person-to-person contact... viral infection.."

The first thing the patient said was - "Yeah... but what causes a viral infection?"

*facepalm*

The next thing they wanted to have happen was to have someone come to their home and swab the moldy walls in the basement to see what it was that was causing their (clearly unrelated) symptoms. It took all of me to say - "No, it doesn't work the way they show it on House."

Wish we could designate someone as "Too stupid to receive survey". Unfortunately everyone's opinion counts, no matter how destructive, insane, or unreasonable.
 
i had one recently that gave me a bad review b/c the xray tech "saw" fluid in her abdomen and i didn't tell her about it. i have no idea what she's talking about - it was an abdominal film (that i honestly did as a PG type satisfier, didn't that backfire!) that was read by me as nonspecific and by the radiologist 5 min later as unremarkable. she never brought it up to me during the visit.

it's a combo survey so i saw everything - she praised the tech and ragged on me and then at the bottom ragged on the hospital about her high bills and the fact that no one will admit her for her nausea. are you freaking kidding me?
 
How do you feel about just writing them a script for abx and advising them that you would suggest not filling it unless they aren't feeling better in 3 days?

If they want the abx bad enough, they have them and fill them and take them. Stops them from making another visit to another doc 3 hours later. If they listen to you, then you helped prevent diarrhea, congrats.

I do that, but I post-date the Rx - I tell the patients that they will probably get better, but, if not, fill the Rx - however, they can't get it filled beforehand (as to what the other posters refer) - usually 3 to 5 days. Even on computer generated scripts, you can either put it in as a note, or hand-write it on the Rx - "Do not fill before 15 May", even if dated 10 May. If it's on the Rx, and it's legal, the pharmacist is legally bound to follow it - and I don't think any pharmacist would be ethically bound to fill it early (like the pharmacists who won't dispense Plan B, because they feel ethically bound not to do so).
 
i had one recently that gave me a bad review b/c the xray tech "saw" fluid in her abdomen and i didn't tell her about it. i have no idea what she's talking about - it was an abdominal film (that i honestly did as a PG type satisfier, didn't that backfire!) that was read by me as nonspecific and by the radiologist 5 min later as unremarkable. she never brought it up to me during the visit.

it's a combo survey so i saw everything - she praised the tech and ragged on me and then at the bottom ragged on the hospital about her high bills and the fact that no one will admit her for her nausea. are you freaking kidding me?

This is a really important post because it illustrates one of the most critical flaws in the "customer satisfaction" system: even if the reason for the complaint is just outright silly the fact that there was a complaint will be given weight.

In this case the complaint is that the patient was not admitted for nausea. Now bear in mind that most of our hospitals would insert a case manager directly up our a** for admitting something that didn't even come close to meeting Interqual or Milliman criteria. So If the doc here had admitted her there'd be Hell to pay on that end. But by not admitting, i.e. doing the right thing, they are now the subject of a complaint.

These complaints are run through a process no matter how silly they are and the count against the doc. If you get a lot of these it hurts you. Administrators look at these as cumulative. If you get more than the average number of complaints then you are a liability. And when you talk averages rather than specific events you lose the fact that a complaint is ridiculous. A member here whose posts I really respect noted once that "Where there are complaints there's smoke. Where there's lawsuits there's fire." That is how administrators look at it. There's no qualifier about justified complaints.

The basic fact is that administrators want us to deny people what they want but they demand that we make them happy about the denial.
 
we do have an appeals process - this is my first batch with this group and my N wasn't high enough for it to affect my pay - just irks the crap out of me that so many of our patients don't know what is right for them, and their judgments affect us so direly.

fwiw - never had a single real complaint working w/ uppity patients... it's the lower end of the education spectrum that complain about things they don't even understand. i had one complain to the hospital admin b/c i told them that their CT showed what was likely cancer - per the RADIOLOGIST. admitted her, she got worked up - probably not cancer. so now she's upset that i caused her family undue duress. i'm pretty sure her whole thing is w/ the bill too... this is making physician satisfaction on my end very poor!!!
 
How do you feel about just writing them a script for abx and advising them that you would suggest not filling it unless they aren't feeling better in 3 days?

If they want the abx bad enough, they have them and fill them and take them. Stops them from making another visit to another doc 3 hours later. If they listen to you, then you helped prevent diarrhea, congrats.

I did that once a few weeks back, very nice smart patient (I'm family and was in my clinic, so I assume more trust than I would in your shoes). Obvious viral URI, but guy was super anxious so I gave him a script and said "Only fill this if you're not better by X day". He comes in 2 weeks later and admit to getting it filled that day.

Never again
 
I did that once a few weeks back, very nice smart patient (I'm family and was in my clinic, so I assume more trust than I would in your shoes). Obvious viral URI, but guy was super anxious so I gave him a script and said "Only fill this if you're not better by X day". He comes in 2 weeks later and admit to getting it filled that day.

Never again

Is it our job to just be and adviser to the patient, and say, "This isn't going to help you, but if you want it, it probably won't hurt you much either. So, here you go."

Or are we more there to decide for them what they should be doing for their illness, "Antibiotics aren't going to be effective for your illness, and antibiotics carry their own risk, even a risk of death from allergy. I don't feel comfortable writing you a prescription."
 
Is it our job to just be and adviser to the patient, and say, "This isn't going to help you, but if you want it, it probably won't hurt you much either. So, here you go."

Or are we more there to decide for them what they should be doing for their illness, "Antibiotics aren't going to be effective for your illness, and antibiotics carry their own risk, even a risk of death from allergy. I don't feel comfortable writing you a prescription."

I usually tell my patients that if they're not feeling any better after 8-9 days of illness, then its more likely bacterial and to come back in. This guy was leaving town before that time period was up, so I compromised with him hence the antibiotics but waiting a week.
 
Is it our job to just be and adviser to the patient, and say, "This isn't going to help you, but if you want it, it probably won't hurt you much either. So, here you go."

Or are we more there to decide for them what they should be doing for their illness, "Antibiotics aren't going to be effective for your illness, and antibiotics carry their own risk, even a risk of death from allergy. I don't feel comfortable writing you a prescription."

We don't have a specific job description, unfortunately. Our role is to diagnose and stabilize emergencies. This has been subjugated to treating everyone who comes in the door, first by the government, then by the management of the department. We are held to a higher standard than most (no misses, but don't waste time on things that aren't emergencies). We also are supposed to help stay ahead of outbreaks of serious illnesses, be the front line for nuclear, biological, and chemical attacks, and be the Wal-Mart greeter for the hospital.
Many of these things have helped line our pockets (we probably wouldn't be paid well, if at all, if we only took care of actual emergencies).
I argue that as physicians, we treat the patient and the illness, not just one or the other. Antibiotics for viral diseases treats the patient, not the illness. Eventually, we won't have any antibiotics left if we keep prescribing them at the rate we do.
 
I usually tell my patients that if they're not feeling any better after 8-9 days of illness, then its more likely bacterial and to come back in. This guy was leaving town before that time period was up, so I compromised with him hence the antibiotics but waiting a week.

That makes no sense, unless they have symptoms consistent with a bacterial illness. If it's just run of the mill URI, it can last for 2 weeks, especially if they smoke.
 
Is it our job to just be and adviser to the patient, and say, "This isn't going to help you, but if you want it, it probably won't hurt you much either. So, here you go."

Or are we more there to decide for them what they should be doing for their illness, "Antibiotics aren't going to be effective for your illness, and antibiotics carry their own risk, even a risk of death from allergy. I don't feel comfortable writing you a prescription."

It's our job not to give the antibiotics unless they are necessary. While these drugs probably won't hurt the patient, we're contributing to antibiotic resistance and the creation of "superbugs". In the case of a viral URI, giving antibiotics is potentially creating a health hazard.
 
That makes no sense, unless they have symptoms consistent with a bacterial illness. If it's just run of the mill URI, it can last for 2 weeks, especially if they smoke.

What I was taught was chemical or structural lung disease, or, barring that, 2 weeks of signs and symptoms; barring those, the pts get an albuterol MDI. As such, smokers and asthmatics get abx, and non-asthmatic non-smokers with 2 weeks of s/s get abx, with the remainder an MDI.

I don't recall the study, but that's how it goes. From my own personal experience, I did bad medicine and got a Z-pak in 2007 after 11 days of symptoms (I didn't wait the full 2 weeks).

I mean, honestly, can you differentiate cleanly, every single time, between bacterial and viral URI? The main thing about viral is they're just more prevalent, so you're just playing the numbers even if you never examine the patient. Likewise, at 2 weeks of symptoms, or, if the lungs can't work at their full efficiency, there can be bacterial superinfection. Sputum color can't be trusted (raging viral can have the greenest, chewiest sputum, and raging bacterial can have the thin and white phlegm), and, dare I say it, we have to resort to "expert opinion". The horrors! That's why I favor the post-dated Rx.
 
Speaking from personal experience - growing up they gave antibiotics for all "bronchitis."

After learning things, I never take antibiotics unless it's proven. As in yes, URI lasting 4-5 weeks. Still no antibiotics. I'm an asthmatic and I have gotten antibiotics once in the past 4 years for URI that caused acute asthma exacerbation. Even then, the only reason I went in is because of my other medical problem - I was afraid my diaphragm would exhaust if I kept breathing 40-50x/min. I wish patients would understand this. I've had several that understood more when I was sick along with them and I looked worse than they did. Maybe that's the trick!?
 
I tell people that I only give antibiotics for the following URI conditions:

Pneumonia
Strep Throat
Ear infections

Anything else is likely viral. Sinusitis has already been debunked as benefiting from antibiotics, and I suspect otitis media is soon to follow.
 
I tell people that I only give antibiotics for the following URI conditions:

Pneumonia
Strep Throat
Ear infections

Anything else is likely viral. Sinusitis has already been debunked as benefiting from antibiotics, and I suspect otitis media is soon to follow.

I thought otitis media was already said to be viral the majority of the time especially in adults. I only treat in adults if purulent or isolated (ear pain only and looks bad). If associated rhinorrhea and cough, no antibiotics.
 
The data for antibiotics for OM is terrible. It doesn't decrease symptoms. It doesn't decrease suppurative complications. It doesn't do anything except make mommy and daddy feel better, and maybe let junior go back to daycare sooner (if he's treated it's ok to be back in school).
Same for pharyngitis, including strep. ABx doesn't decrease PSGN, and that's a fact. Rheumatic disease is almost a nonentity in this country, so it probably doesn't help with that either in this population. But we give anyone with a sore throat or an ear infection ABx.
 
The data for antibiotics for OM is terrible. It doesn't decrease symptoms. It doesn't decrease suppurative complications. It doesn't do anything except make mommy and daddy feel better, and maybe let junior go back to daycare sooner (if he's treated it's ok to be back in school).
Same for pharyngitis, including strep. ABx doesn't decrease PSGN, and that's a fact. Rheumatic disease is almost a nonentity in this country, so it probably doesn't help with that either in this population. But we give anyone with a sore throat or an ear infection ABx.

Abx have ALWAYS made my kids feel and sleep much better.

I am just a gas-passer though.

We don't go to the ED though.

The pediatrician always gives them to us (and not because I ask them to).
 
The data for antibiotics for OM is terrible. It doesn't decrease symptoms. It doesn't decrease suppurative complications. It doesn't do anything except make mommy and daddy feel better, and maybe let junior go back to daycare sooner (if he's treated it's ok to be back in school).

Most opinion disagrees with this, at least for those < 24 months of age. Here is one of several recent articles on the topic.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa0912254

Among children 6 to 23 months of age with acute otitis media, treatment with amoxicillin&#8211;clavulanate for 10 days tended to reduce the time to resolution of symptoms and reduced the overall symptom burden and the rate of persistent signs of acute infection on otoscopic examination. (Funded by the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases; ClinicalTrials.gov number, NCT00377260.)
 
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