“Health Care Truth and Transparency Act of 2006

[SleepIsGood]

SDN1977-

I'm not arguing that pharmacists are worthless. Never said that. However, when pharmacists or other health care workers MISREPRESENT themselves to patients or other personell, I do have a problem with that.

I posted an experience that I HAD with a pharmacist. You then went on to say that ppl were attacking your profession and then you went on your rant. So do not distort the discussion. I threw out an example that I experienced. As for age? Who cares? I'm definitely in my learning stages as a resident. I have a lot to learn about medicine and along with other residents I'll make mistakes. But bringing up one's age is completely unnecessary. Is a 30 year old PGY2 resident better than a 40 or 50 year old PGY2 resident?

Perhaps you were right to begin with. On a physician/student doctor forum, perhaps you should not get involved with our political discussions. Stick to the talk about the drugs. Discussions and examples we throw out on here allow younger docs to become knowledgeable on certain issues facing medicine/anesthesiology. When we have these discussions on here, inherently the names of certain professions such as pharmacists, nurses,etc maybe thrown out there to make our examples more concrete. In pharmacy, nurse journals/meetings they do exactly the same about physicians. So why can't we? How many times as a medstudent did I hear nurses,etc complaining of certain docs doing this or that? Or when I was a pharmacy tech in college HOW MANY times did I hear pharmacists bad mouth docs? Numerous. Unfortunately, docs often times do not discuss these issues until it's too late. The discussion here and the subject of this thread is about the misrepresenation of other health care workers. It is legislation that effects us (physicians) and examples of this WILL be thrown around.

Also, I do not have any interest in perusing the pharmacy forum at this time, maybe in the near future? Thanks though. Everything I said on here about pharmacists, etc are things I've experienced firsthand. Moreover, I must not be the only person experiencing these things if legislation is trying to be passed about this exact issue .

Again, this is not a personal attack on you, so do not make it out to be one.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[rainking]

Ohhh you mean your a Troll

I will repeat.. go to the all nurses forum.. you MURSE..

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

Uhm

Nope. This is a relevant thread to me. You however, are nobody. Please refrain from personal insults lest your banned yet again.

I will repeat.. go to the all nurses forum.. you MURSE..

 

[Noyac]

SDN1977-

I'm not arguing that pharmacists are worthless. Never said that. However, when pharmacists or other health care workers MISREPRESENT themselves to patients or other personell, I do have a problem with that.

I posted an experience that I HAD with a pharmacist. You then went on to say that ppl were attacking your profession and then you went on your rant. So do not distort the discussion. I threw out an example that I experienced. As for age? Who cares? I'm definitely in my learning stages as a resident. I have a lot to learn about medicine and along with other residents I'll make mistakes. But bringing up one's age is completely unnecessary. Is a 30 year old PGY2 resident better than a 40 or 50 year old PGY2 resident?

Perhaps you were right to begin with. On a physician/student doctor forum, perhaps you should not get involved with our political discussions. Stick to the talk about the drugs. Discussions and examples we throw out on here allow younger docs to become knowledgeable on certain issues facing medicine/anesthesiology. When we have these discussions on here, inherently the names of certain professions such as pharmacists, nurses,etc maybe thrown out there to make our examples more concrete. In pharmacy, nurse journals/meetings they do exactly the same about physicians. So why can't we? How many times as a medstudent did I hear nurses,etc complaining of certain docs doing this or that? Or when I was a pharmacy tech in college HOW MANY times did I hear pharmacists bad mouth docs? Numerous. Unfortunately, docs often times do not discuss these issues until it's too late. The discussion here and the subject of this thread is about the misrepresenation of other health care workers. It is legislation that effects us (physicians) and examples of this WILL be thrown around.

Also, I do not have any interest in perusing the pharmacy forum at this time, maybe in the near future? Thanks though. Everything I said on here about pharmacists, etc are things I've experienced firsthand. Moreover, I must not be the only person experiencing these things if legislation is trying to be passed about this exact issue .

Again, this is not a personal attack on you, so do not make it out to be one.

Not to sure how the pharmacists are were you work but I have never had a problem with a single one. During my residency, I found the PharmD in the ICU to have as much useful knowledge as my attendings. And their knowledge was requested daily by my attendings while on rounds. Yes the PharmD rounded with us. His name was Herb (great name for a pharmD ) I still remember him and would have him working in my current hospital at the drop of a hat.

 

[jwk]

http://www.asahq.org/news/asanews070606.htm

Looks like the ASA is taking an active role in this debate.

 

[apellous]

This is clearing a problem with the nurses and NOT the pharmD's. The nurses want to muddy the water so that patients can not see though it. The DnPs and the CRNAs will call themselves DR. ___ and patient will not know the difference. It is total crap and I dont feel that they are doing it for anything more than to confuse the public. I would be very interested to see the new requirement to get a doctorate in nursing. I doubt it will involve indepentent research and/or 4-5 years of full-time study and tuition.The BS they get is part-time(and mostly a joke at community college for many RNs) while they work and my guess isthe Dorctorate will be nothing comparable to getting a Phd or MD/DO.

This is going to be great for medicine. Get your online DnP in 16wks after you complete 2 yrs of community college. Have your own patients even open your own clinic in walmart.

I should have been an account at least they will have a respectible profession in 2015.

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

apellous

Wow. Quite the nasty post there.

Lets see

I did 4 years of university straight as a Science degree in Canada to become an RN. This included full anatomy and physiology and cadaver labs (full year), O chem, bio chem etc etc

In fact, Canada ONLY has 4 year science degrees for Nursing.

So, please, stop generalizing about something you clearly know little (or nothing) about. Should I bring up the carrib. schools for medicine or the various others which are considered "second class" education yet are accredited in the USA in higher numbers every year?

Now, as for CRNAs (i cant speak to the NP programs). They are typically 27-30 months AFTER you have your 4 year degree. Oh, btw, it cannot be done any other way than full time in a university. Thats JUST for the masters level training. The docterate is expected to add another 4-6 months to programs. So now it will be 33-36 months.

A total education time of ~ 7 years.

This of course, does not include that most CRNAs have 4-7 years of critical care experience before entering CRNA school even though the min req is 1 year.

As to your ascertion that RNs want to be called doctors? Interesting that you seem to have some ESP that allows you to know the intentions of a whole other group of professionals when you cannot even get the educational evidence correct (see above) . In fact, all of the professional nursing organizations have clearly stated that NPs and CRNAs would not call themselves "Physicians" or "Doctors" in hospital and support litigation against such frauds. Secondly, Nursing is currently one of the only allied health professions which isnt Doctorate prepared and it is long overdue.

Its interesting how so many denegrated the NP and CRNA professions because of the masters level education yet when that changes to a level of education commensurate with the advanced level of practice the insults come out of the woodwork again.

Apellous, I dont know you but this one post quickly places your level of professionalism in question. Baseless insults and absolute lack of respect are not the hallmarks of a physician or the honored practice of medicine.

 

[apellous]

apellous

Wow. Quite the nasty post there.

Lets see

I did 4 years of university straight as a Science degree in Canada to become an RN. This included full anatomy and physiology and cadaver labs (full year), O chem, bio chem etc etc

In fact, Canada ONLY has 4 year science degrees for Nursing.

So, please, stop generalizing about something you clearly know little (or nothing) about. Should I bring up the carrib. schools for medicine or the various others which are considered "second class" education yet are accredited in the USA in higher numbers every year?

Now, as for CRNAs (i cant speak to the NP programs). They are typically 27-30 months AFTER you have your 4 year degree. Oh, btw, it cannot be done any other way than full time in a university. Thats JUST for the masters level training. The docterate is expected to add another 4-6 months to programs. So now it will be 33-36 months.

A total education time of ~ 7 years.

This of course, does not include that most CRNAs have 4-7 years of critical care experience before entering CRNA school even though the min req is 1 year.

As to your ascertion that RNs want to be called doctors? Interesting that you seem to have some ESP that allows you to know the intentions of a whole other group of professionals when you cannot even get the educational evidence correct (see above) . In fact, all of the professional nursing organizations have clearly stated that NPs and CRNAs would not call themselves "Physicians" or "Doctors" in hospital and support litigation against such frauds. Secondly, Nursing is currently one of the only allied health professions which isnt Doctorate prepared and it is long overdue.

Its interesting how so many denegrated the NP and CRNA professions because of the masters level education yet when that changes to a level of education commensurate with the advanced level of practice the insults come out of the woodwork again.

Apellous, I dont know you but this one post quickly places your level of professionalism in question. Baseless insults and absolute lack of respect are not the hallmarks of a physician or the honored practice of medicine.

Go to allnurse form dude. I dont care what you think define professionalism and most nurses I know went to community college. Also I was being sarcastic about "Get your online DnP in 16wks after you complete 2 yrs of community college. Have your own patients even open your own clinic in walmart."

Either way dont really care about crnas or Dnp. I plan on working in a group without both and If we have midlevels I will make sure they are AA or PA because I have had nothing but BAD experiences with CRNAs. So I hope this form gets under your skin because this IS a DR. of Medicine form NOT a DR. of NUSRE form

peace

 

[bulletproof]

. Should I bring up the carrib. schools for medicine or the various others which are considered "second class" education yet are accredited in the USA in higher numbers every year?

Mike, while I have no intention of getting involved in this thread lets not confuse the issue further by implying that in some way Docs. with carib. degrees ( and whoever else you were referring to ) are somehow analagous to CRNAs and nursing PhD candidates. You see, unlike the latter, the former bunch must all have actually gone to medical school to attain the title of Physician, and more importantly had to pass the three little hurdles known as the USMLEs.And then there is the little subject of residencies.Irrespective of where you go to MEDICAL SCHOOL all DOCS in the US have these same basic requirements in order to be a qualified PHYSICIAN. When and if a nurse ever does that I will gladly call him/her Doc. Incidentally I have three sisters who are nurses, and have the utmost respect for their profession, as they do for mine. Perhaps thats why they have no desire to misrepresent themselves. Just a thought.
Also, hope all is going well with the med. school admissions process. Secure a place in Ireland yet? Good luck with the process of becoming a Physician.Peace.

 

[Faebinder]

Mike, while I have no intention of getting involved in this thread lets not confuse the issue further by implying that in some way Docs. with carib. degrees ( and whoever else you were referring to ) are somehow analagous to CRNAs and nursing PhD candidates. You see, unlike the latter, the former bunch must all have actually gone to medical school to attain the title of Physician, and more importantly had to pass the three little hurdles known as the USMLEs.And then there is the little subject of residencies.Irrespective of where you go to MEDICAL SCHOOL all DOCS in the US have these same basic requirements in order to be a qualified PHYSICIAN. When and if a nurse ever does that I will gladly call him/her Doc. Incidentally I have three sisters who are nurses, and have the utmost respect for their profession, as they do for mine. Perhaps thats why they have no desire to misrepresent themselves. Just a thought.
Also, hope all is going well with the med. school admissions process. Secure a place in Ireland yet? Good luck with the process of becoming a Physician.Peace.

Not to mention the medical boards for each specialty...even for something as short as Family Practice.

 

[militarymd]

Not to mention the medical boards for each specialty...even for something as short as Family Practice.

Did you just diss the FP's?

 

[Faebinder]

Did you just diss the FP's?

Not at all... I'm hoping to join it in fact. I was speaking of the boards after residency.. not the USMLE. I was quoting it as an example of how everyone has to go through specialty medical boards with no exceptions. Word clutter.

 

[cloud9]

Interesting that you seem to have some ESP that allows you to know the intentions of a whole other group of professionals .....
Its interesting how so many denegrated the NP and CRNA professions because of the masters level education

A case of the pot and the kettle?

And how would you know the thoughts of a "whole other group of professionals"?

I've never thought less of any of the Master's Degrees nor have I heard anyone do so. Seems like you are putting words in my mouth.

Unless, of course, you are stating that the actions of internet trolls represent the views of the Physician community.

 

[toughlife]

http://www.asahq.org/news/asanews070606.htm

Looks like the ASA is taking an active role in this debate.

From the horse's mouth:

AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION HOUSE OF DELEGATES


Resolution: 211
(A-06)

Subject: Need to Expose and Counter Nurse Doctoral Programs (NDP) Misrepresentation

Referred to: Reference Committee B
(John M. Zerwas, MD, Chair)


Whereas, The patient-physician relationship is the foundation of effective medical care; and

Whereas, Patient trust is a cornerstone of good medical care delivery; and

Whereas, Quality medical care requires appropriate education, skills, training and experience, as recognized and upheld in state laws; and

Whereas, State-based regulation of medicine should be aggressively protected to ensure patient safety and optimal clinical outcomes; and

Whereas, Confusion, injury and a breakdown of quality medical care would result from persons not trained as medical doctors and doctors of osteopathy misrepresenting themselves as “doctors” in clinical settings; and

Whereas, The American Association of Colleges of Nursing plans to convert its advance nurse practice degree from master's programs to “Doctor of Nursing Practice” (DNP) by the year 2015; and

Whereas, Four such “doctoral” nurse anesthesia programs currently are offered in the United States and more are planned; and

Whereas, The Nurse Anesthesia Accreditation Council has mandated doctoral training for all nurse anesthetists by the year 2015; and

Whereas, At least one of the DNP programs is advertising its programs as “similar in concept to practice doctorates in other professions such as medicine (MD), law (JD), and dentistry (DDM)”; and

Whereas, The quality of care rendered by individuals with a nurse doctoral degree is not equivalent to that of a physician (MD or DO); and

Whereas, Nurses and other non-physician providers who hold doctoral degrees and identify themselves to patients as "doctors" will create confusion, jeopardize patient safety and erode the trust inherent in the true patient-physician relationship; and

Whereas, Patients led to believe that they are receiving care from a “doctor,” who is not a physician (MD or DO), but who is a DNP may put their health at risk; therefore be it
RESOLVED, That it shall be the policy of our American Medical Association that institutions offering advanced education in the healing arts and professions shall fully and accurately inform applicants and students of the educational programs and degrees offered by an institution and the limitations, if any, on the scope of practice under applicable state law for which the program prepares the student (New HOD Policy); and be it further

RESOLVED, That our AMA work jointly with state attorneys general to identify and prosecute those individuals who misrepresent themselves as physicians to their patients and mislead program applicants as to their future scope of practice (Directive to Take Action); and be it further

RESOLVED, That our AMA pursue all other appropriate legislative, regulatory and legal actions through the Scope of Practice Partnership, as well as actions within hospital staff organizations, to counter misrepresentation by nurse doctoral programs and their students and graduates, particularly in clinical settings. (Directive to Take Action)

 

[SleepIsGood]

...
RESOLVED, That our AMA pursue all other appropriate legislative, regulatory and legal actions through the Scope of Practice Partnership, as well as actions within hospital staff organizations, to counter misrepresentation by nurse doctoral programs and their students and graduates, particularly in clinical settings. (Directive to Take Action)

I really hope the AMA and each one of us tries to fight this DNP issue. Having said that, the problem I've seen at too many hospitals these days is the administration. In the above statement, the AMA states how hospitals should try to counter misrepresentation. The sad truth is that most 'higher ups' in the hospitals are nurses or nurses with MBA/JDs,etc. When push comes to shove are they going to support our cause?

Most nurses get these admin positions because they pay well..relatively. A nurse that's making 50-60K will become an adminstrator to get that 100K (give or take 10K) salary. Will you find a physician that will leave his >125K job (or if you're an anesthesiologist maybe 300K job) to be an admin for 100K....very likely not.

Unfortunately, a lot of this is politics. Nurses have learned that. They've done that with Congress already and they are a pretty powerful group in the hospitals. THey know that when more of their own are in administrative workforces, more of their interests will be addressed. The best resolution to this is to increase pay of admins, or physicians that are admins so as to attract more of our own into administrative jobs. Then only will docs have legislative power in hospitals as they once did.

 

[toughlife]

I really hope the AMA and each one of us tries to fight this DNP issue. Having said that, the problem I've seen at too many hospitals these days is the administration. In the above statement, the AMA states how hospitals should try to counter misrepresentation. The sad truth is that most 'higher ups' in the hospitals are nurses or nurses with MBA/JDs,etc. When push comes to shove are they going to support our cause?

Most nurses get these admin positions because they pay well..relatively. A nurse that's making 50-60K will become an adminstrator to get that 100K (give or take 10K) salary. Will you find a physician that will leave his >125K job (or if you're an anesthesiologist maybe 300K job) to be an admin for 100K....very likely not.

Unfortunately, a lot of this is politics. Nurses have learned that. They've done that with Congress already and they are a pretty powerful group in the hospitals. THey know that when more of their own are in administrative workforces, more of their interests will be addressed. The best resolution to this is to increase pay of admins, or physicians that are admins so as to attract more of our own into administrative jobs. Then only will docs have legislative power in hospitals as they once did.

glad to know that the boss at my training site is a doc.

 

[jwk]

I really hope the AMA and each one of us tries to fight this DNP issue. Having said that, the problem I've seen at too many hospitals these days is the administration. In the above statement, the AMA states how hospitals should try to counter misrepresentation. The sad truth is that most 'higher ups' in the hospitals are nurses or nurses with MBA/JDs,etc. When push comes to shove are they going to support our cause?

Most nurses get these admin positions because they pay well..relatively. A nurse that's making 50-60K will become an adminstrator to get that 100K (give or take 10K) salary. Will you find a physician that will leave his >125K job (or if you're an anesthesiologist maybe 300K job) to be an admin for 100K....very likely not.

Unfortunately, a lot of this is politics. Nurses have learned that. They've done that with Congress already and they are a pretty powerful group in the hospitals. THey know that when more of their own are in administrative workforces, more of their interests will be addressed. The best resolution to this is to increase pay of admins, or physicians that are admins so as to attract more of our own into administrative jobs. Then only will docs have legislative power in hospitals as they once did.

Although you won't be able to block the creation of DNP programs, it will clearly be important to speak out against fraud and misrepresentation to patients. Unfortunately this is not a theoretical risk - it's already happening.

 

[Monty Python]

Although you won't be able to block the creation of DNP programs, it will clearly be important to speak out against fraud and misrepresentation to patients. Unfortunately this is not a theoretical risk - it's already happening.

I still like my idea: everyone involved in patient care wear a hospital-issued photo ID badge with their role clearly printed in large letters beneath their name.

No initials, no acronyms, no academic degree listing. Just:

John Smith
PHYSICIAN

John Smith
PHARMACIST

etc etc.

 

[UTSouthwestern]

I still like my idea: everyone involved in patient care wear a hospital-issued photo ID badge with their role clearly printed in large letters beneath their name.

No initials, no acronyms, no academic degree listing. Just:

John Smith
PHYSICIAN

John Smith
PHARMACIST

etc etc.

I remember my Parkland badge and what it had:

Dr. XXX XXX, M.D., M.P.H.
Physician
Anesthesiologist

If you couldn't figure out my role with that, you needed help.

 

[SleepIsGood]

I remember my Parkland badge and what it had:

Dr. XXX XXX, M.D., M.P.H.
Physician
Anesthesiologist

If you couldn't figure out my role with that, you needed help.

 

[jetproppilot]

I still like my idea: everyone involved in patient care wear a hospital-issued photo ID badge with their role clearly printed in large letters beneath their name.

No initials, no acronyms, no academic degree listing. Just:

John Smith
PHYSICIAN

John Smith
PHARMACIST

etc etc.

We all know how frequent it is that Ima Wannabe puts on a white coat embrazened only-with, in the eloquent seamstress-cursive, above the left-chest-pocket :

Dr. Wannabe