Taddy Mason

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These petitions are nothing new, it's not going away anytime soon.
 

ProfMD

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Just wait until you start paying for board exams, maintenance of certification, CME credits ...

The financial soaking never stops.
 

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Just wait until you start paying for board exams, maintenance of certification, CME credits ...

The financial soaking never stops.
You can write all that off though cant you?
 

Donald Juan

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Just wait until you start paying for board exams, maintenance of certification, CME credits ...

The financial soaking never stops.
Yeah, but I hate the argument that since the system is screwed even more further down the line that we shouldn't complain about it being screwed in the beginning of the line. This is a real problem that has obvious solutions.
 

ProfMD

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You can write all that off though cant you?
You can write it off but it's still expensive.

Yeah, but I hate the argument that since the system is screwed even more further down the line that we shouldn't complain about it being screwed in the beginning of the line. This is a real problem that has obvious solutions.
I wasn't saying there was no reason to complain. The costs of these exams is crazy. I am just pointing out that it doesn't stop. The ridiculous expenses go way beyond just the USMLE.
 

Crayola227

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there's actually good reasons why the exam exists and is required of everyone

you'd have to search my post history
 

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It's a business. It's not changing. Too much money to be lost.
 

xffan624

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there's actually good reasons why the exam exists and is required of everyone

you'd have to search my post history
Except for, you know, 90% of physicians who are currently practicing. If this exam is so important, why are so many doctors allowed to have a license without having taken it? (not that I'm advocating we require pre-step 2cs american doctors to take it retroactively, but any argument talking about how important this test is should at least acknowledge that most doctors practicing did not take it and are doing just fine).
 
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ACSurgeon

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Just wait until you start paying for board exams, maintenance of certification, CME credits ...

The financial soaking never stops.
At least you pay for it with actual money, not borrowed money.

Also, look at the IM board for one example of how the ridiculous costs led to internists bringing about change. ie, for those saying this won't ever change, maybe that's not true...
 

Crayola227

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Except for, you know, 90% of physicians who are currently practicing. If this exam is so important, why are so many doctors allowed to have a license without having taken it? (not that I'm advocating we require pre-step 2cs american doctors to take it retroactively, but any argument talking about how important this test is should at least acknowledge that most doctors practicing did not take it and are doing just fine).
go dig up my post or do research on how it came into existence

the history of the exam explains why it's in place now
 

akwho

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It's a worthless test, take it from someone who just took it last year. Never forget the people administering the test make $200k+ salaries off the back of your loans. They never had to take the test to become doctors and now it's "essential." It's regulatory capture pure and simple, the only thing it's essential for is their bloated lifestyles and side salaries.
 

Raryn

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go dig up my post or do research on how it came into existence

the history of the exam explains why it's in place now
Crayola, this habit of yours telling people to search your post history is getting ridiculous. Have you even tried searching for something specific like that before? It doesn't work all that well, and it's annoying to boot. For example, here's the search of your post history for the keyword CS: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/search/39788273/?q=CS&o=date&c[user][0]=576613

Either type out a line or two summarizing your point or don't comment at all. And the history of the exam is that it was quite literally replacing English competency requirements for foreign graduates in a more comprehensive fashion, and then ended up getting expanded to cover US grads because the NBME thought it would be helpful (... for them to get millions in additional revenue).
 

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You can write it off but it's still expensive.



I wasn't saying there was no reason to complain. The costs of these exams is crazy. I am just pointing out that it doesn't stop. The ridiculous expenses go way beyond just the USMLE.
Yeah except you get paid and can afford it but med students generally have to take out even more loans to pay for it. A $1300 test will probably end up costing $2000 altogether. That's huge for an incredibly useless test, not to mention having to travel to the test site and get lodging.
 
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Crayola227

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Crayola, this habit of yours telling people to search your post history is getting ridiculous. Have you even tried searching for something specific like that before? It doesn't work all that well, and it's annoying to boot. For example, here's the search of your post history for the keyword CS: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/search/39788273/?q=CS&o=date&c[user][0]=576613

Either type out a line or two summarizing your point or don't comment at all. And the history of the exam is that it was quite literally replacing English competency requirements for foreign graduates in a more comprehensive fashion, and then ended up getting expanded to cover US grads because the NBME thought it would be helpful (... for them to get millions in additional revenue).
I didn't just refer to my post history I suggested another source of info which is to research how it came to be

you were right that it was initially a requirement that made sense for FMGs, and actually helped them obtain interviews here in the US (because if you don't have the test then it's on the applicant to prove competency, or for programs to suss that out, or waste an interview when someone shows up who can't speak English or do heart/lung exam, leading to more FMG avoidance in the future)

here's the kicker, and I don't remember the details of WHO made this an issue, (which is why I am referring people to dig it up if they don't like my explanation) is that it came up as a discriminatory hiring practice to require it of the FMGs vs IMGs vs AMGs

and basically if you were gonna require this extra licensing test for FMGs, than you legally had to have it for AMGs
or you had to scrap it for all

so when you understand the utility of the test (FMGs) and how the law works, you can understand how we ended up ehre and why it's not going away and that it's not just a money grab, and it's not just all about you (AMGs)
 

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I didn't just refer to my post history I suggested another source of info which is to research how it came to be

you were right that it was initially a requirement that made sense for FMGs, and actually helped them obtain interviews here in the US (because if you don't have the test then it's on the applicant to prove competency, or for programs to suss that out, or waste an interview when someone shows up who can't speak English or do heart/lung exam, leading to more FMG avoidance in the future)

here's the kicker, and I don't remember the details of WHO made this an issue, (which is why I am referring people to dig it up if they don't like my explanation) is that it came up as a discriminatory hiring practice to require it of the FMGs vs IMGs vs AMGs

and basically if you were gonna require this extra licensing test for FMGs, than you legally had to have it for AMGs
or you had to scrap it for all

so when you understand the utility of the test (FMGs) and how the law works, you can understand how we ended up ehre and why it's not going away and that it's not just a money grab, and it's not just all about you (AMGs)
How is it a discriminatory hiring practice to make someone who never went to medical school here in the US, take a test to certify they are competent to practice in the US? I certainly wouldn't feel discriminated if China made me take a Step 2cs type test in order to practice in China.
 

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Sorry that I want my doctors in America to speak English. I'm going to assume that those people who were smart enough to gain acceptance to medical school in America already know the language well enough to function in a hospital.

Step 2 cs should be required for foreigners and not for AMGs. It's a completely superfluous test as can be seen by the recent change in grading to allow for more test failures. What purpose did that serve, other than to allow for the board of examiners to steal more money from students? Everyone is trying to stick their fingers in our debt honey pot.
 

GUH

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Yeah I'm not buying the argument that you have to require it for US grads if you do it for foreigners. If that were true, then medical schools and colleges wouldn't require the TOEFL of foreign applicants, either.
 
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ProfMD

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Yeah except you get paid and can afford it but med students generally have to take out even more loans to pay for it. A $1300 test will probably end up costing $2000 altogether. That's huge for an incredibly useless test, not to mention having to travel to the test site and get lodging.
True. Again, I am not excusing the expense, simply pointing out that it doesn't stop.

I paid around $10k for my speciality boards (half of that for application and exam fee, half for review course and travel/hotel expenses). So, yes, I make money and can afford it, but it is still a lot of money.
 

Raryn

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I didn't just refer to my post history I suggested another source of info which is to research how it came to be

you were right that it was initially a requirement that made sense for FMGs, and actually helped them obtain interviews here in the US (because if you don't have the test then it's on the applicant to prove competency, or for programs to suss that out, or waste an interview when someone shows up who can't speak English or do heart/lung exam, leading to more FMG avoidance in the future)

here's the kicker, and I don't remember the details of WHO made this an issue, (which is why I am referring people to dig it up if they don't like my explanation) is that it came up as a discriminatory hiring practice to require it of the FMGs vs IMGs vs AMGs

and basically if you were gonna require this extra licensing test for FMGs, than you legally had to have it for AMGs
or you had to scrap it for all

so when you understand the utility of the test (FMGs) and how the law works, you can understand how we ended up ehre and why it's not going away and that it's not just a money grab, and it's not just all about you (AMGs)
[citation needed]. And no, telling me to find one of your (seemingly nonexistent) past posts doesn't count.
 

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True. Again, I am not excusing the expense, simply pointing out that it doesn't stop.

I paid around $10k for my speciality boards (half of that for application and exam fee, half for review course and travel/hotel expenses). So, yes, I make money and can afford it, but it is still a lot of money.
And don't forget the time spent on all that nonsense.
 
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I didn't just refer to my post history I suggested another source of info which is to research how it came to be

you were right that it was initially a requirement that made sense for FMGs, and actually helped them obtain interviews here in the US (because if you don't have the test then it's on the applicant to prove competency, or for programs to suss that out, or waste an interview when someone shows up who can't speak English or do heart/lung exam, leading to more FMG avoidance in the future)

here's the kicker, and I don't remember the details of WHO made this an issue, (which is why I am referring people to dig it up if they don't like my explanation) is that it came up as a discriminatory hiring practice to require it of the FMGs vs IMGs vs AMGs

and basically if you were gonna require this extra licensing test for FMGs, than you legally had to have it for AMGs
or you had to scrap it for all

so when you understand the utility of the test (FMGs) and how the law works, you can understand how we ended up ehre and why it's not going away and that it's not just a money grab, and it's not just all about you (AMGs)
Doesn't make sense how that is discriminatory. I won't pretend to be an expert on all the details here but aren't all US medical schools (and Canada) accredited by the LCME? As opposed to foreign medical schools which are not? Seems obvious why they might have to take an extra licensing test considering there is no control over the standards at foreign institutions whereas all US institutions are held to accreditation standards. Especially considering other things such as language competency. It's not rocket surgery why someone trained in another country might have to take extra licensing tests.

I do believe the primary argument of the petition is not simply that its expensive and easy. Its that these things are tested over and over again in a medical school curriculum accredited in the US. So its redundant, inefficient, and expensive.
 

Raryn

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Doesn't make sense how that is discriminatory. I won't pretend to be an expert on all the details here but aren't all US medical schools (and Canada) accredited by the LCME? As opposed to foreign medical schools which are not? Seems obvious why they might have to take an extra licensing test considering there is no control over the standards at foreign institutions whereas all US institutions are held to accreditation standards. Especially considering other things such as language competency. It's not rocket surgery why someone trained in another country might have to take extra licensing tests.

I do believe the primary argument of the petition is not simply that its expensive and easy. Its that these things are tested over and over again in a medical school curriculum accredited in the US. So its redundant, inefficient, and expensive.
Exactly. Plenty of training programs/degree programs/whatever require foreigners to take the TOEFL. So did medicine before the FMG only CS existed. I highly doubt the discrimination argument.
 

ThoracicGuy

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I didn't just refer to my post history I suggested another source of info which is to research how it came to be

you were right that it was initially a requirement that made sense for FMGs, and actually helped them obtain interviews here in the US (because if you don't have the test then it's on the applicant to prove competency, or for programs to suss that out, or waste an interview when someone shows up who can't speak English or do heart/lung exam, leading to more FMG avoidance in the future)

here's the kicker, and I don't remember the details of WHO made this an issue, (which is why I am referring people to dig it up if they don't like my explanation) is that it came up as a discriminatory hiring practice to require it of the FMGs vs IMGs vs AMGs

and basically if you were gonna require this extra licensing test for FMGs, than you legally had to have it for AMGs
or you had to scrap it for all

so when you understand the utility of the test (FMGs) and how the law works, you can understand how we ended up ehre and why it's not going away and that it's not just a money grab, and it's not just all about you (AMGs)
Why would you have to have this requirement for AMGs just so you could have it for FMGs? There's no law that says you can't be discriminatory in that manner.

I'm glad I never took that test. Waste of time.
 

Donald Juan

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I didn't just refer to my post history I suggested another source of info which is to research how it came to be

you were right that it was initially a requirement that made sense for FMGs, and actually helped them obtain interviews here in the US (because if you don't have the test then it's on the applicant to prove competency, or for programs to suss that out, or waste an interview when someone shows up who can't speak English or do heart/lung exam, leading to more FMG avoidance in the future)

here's the kicker, and I don't remember the details of WHO made this an issue, (which is why I am referring people to dig it up if they don't like my explanation) is that it came up as a discriminatory hiring practice to require it of the FMGs vs IMGs vs AMGs

and basically if you were gonna require this extra licensing test for FMGs, than you legally had to have it for AMGs
or you had to scrap it for all

so when you understand the utility of the test (FMGs) and how the law works, you can understand how we ended up ehre and why it's not going away and that it's not just a money grab, and it's not just all about you (AMGs)
You're wrong. I suggest you search my post history and google to find out why.
 

Crayola227

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listen guys, I'm not married to the idea

just saying, a couple of years ago when I had to take the ****ing thing I hated it too, and came across an article from a decent source and I'm trying to summarize the points I can remember it making that made sense to me why it's sorta inevitable

I just wanted to present that once upon a time I became aware of an argument "for" that I couldn't readily dismiss, which IIRC, was a legal one, before we all get excited about getting rid of it or just blowing it off as a money grab

that was all, I did spend some time trying to find that article and failed

maybe I'll try again since I've annoyed everyone
 

cbrons

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True. Again, I am not excusing the expense, simply pointing out that it doesn't stop.

I paid around $10k for my speciality boards (half of that for application and exam fee, half for review course and travel/hotel expenses). So, yes, I make money and can afford it, but it is still a lot of money.
WTF????
 

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there's actually good reasons why the exam exists and is required of everyone
Agree with this. There needs to be quality assurance measures especially in our new world of education in which competency is no longer required in schools, and especially with the Caribbean schools and other FMGs from areas where the schools are not good quality.
 
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