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and if anyone thinks the government cannot apply the same principle to our exorbitant salaries that we are so very privileged to receive, they are naive. A strictly partisan bill. Couldn't even muster the support of a single Republican senator. Not one damn Republican...and I thought Bush was divisive! I never agreed with voting straight down party lines but it's become a litmus test for me now. This is supposed to be change I can believe in? Well, it is change. Thanks, libs!
 

BMBiology

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I guess you are not including established government programs like medicaid and medicare in your 1/6.
 
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I guess you are not including established government programs like medicaid and medicare in your 1/6.
Why would I? Medicare is not about to be socialized, it already is and I sure as hell don't agree with that, either. What is your point?
 

BMBiology

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Why would I? Medicare is not about to be socialized, it already is.
The whole health care system is 1/6 of the economy. Medicare, a government run program, is part of the health care system. Therefore, "socialized medicine" is already apart of the 1/6 of the economy. You need to put A + B together. Simple math, really.
 
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Old Timer

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A strictly partisan bill. Couldn't even muster the support of a single Republican senator. Not one damn Republican...and I thought Bush was divisive! I never agreed with voting straight down party lines but it's become a litmus test for me now. This is supposed to be change I can believe in? Well, it is change. Thanks, libs!
First off all, you are really silly. This is what he said he would do when he ran. Elections have consequences. He won and McCain didn't.

Second if you think the reason why not a single republican voted for the bill was President Obama was divisive, you need to get rid of of those right wing, reactionary Glen Beck glasses. There are plenty of republican ideas in the bill. It's almost an exact duplicate of the Romney passed in MA and by the way is wildly popular in MA.

Do I like the bill, well, I have to wait for the dust to settle. The status quo was not acceptable. What does this bill really do that's so bad. There is no National single payer health plan. There is no public option. What you really have is insurance reform with subsidies for lower middle class people who don't have insurance to buy their own. This is really socialized medicine. I think you better look at Canada and Europe and see what socialized medicine is all about. This is not it. Not by a long shot. Do I have issues, yes. There is not nearly enough cost containment. There is still a wall between the payer and the consumer making the consumer demand more services than may be prudent. There is no tort reform. There is too much given away to the insurance industry for my liking. They just 30-40 million new customers who will be paying them thousands per year.....
 
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Let's see...if I painted 1/2 of my house yesterday and I painted the other half of my house today, ALL of my house is about to be painted. Yeah, simple math.
 
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OldTimer is presenting with AMS, likely a result of a CVS catheter-related UTI from lack of bathroom breaks. It's futile to argue with a lone man who praises the virtues of CVS and who erroneously labels me as a right-winger. Awesome. Like when my conservative friends call me a liberal. Damn, I'm having an identity crisis.
 

njac

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OldTimer is presenting with AMS, likely a result of a CVS catheter-related UTI from lack of bathroom breaks. It's futile to argue with a lone man who praises the virtues of CVS and who erroneously labels me as a right-winger. Awesome. Like when my conservative friends call me a liberal. Damn, I'm having an identity crisis.
you have to admit that it's easy to jump to a label conclusion when you ended your first post with "thanks, libs!"
 

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Awesome. Like when my conservative friends call me a liberal.
You are not a liberal. You need logic to be one. But seriously, I don't see this as a liberal or conservative position. But people love to label things and make the health care debate to simple words like "socialized medicine", "government run healthcare", "obamacare". Really? If health care reform is that simple, then it would have happened a long time ago.
 

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It's not even really a health care bill ... it just reforms insurance. There are a lot of things that still need to be done, this bill just seems to add more people to a broken system and put a few band aids in the right places. I'm waiting for malpractice litigation reform, a change from a fee-for-service pay model, and addressing the primary doctor shortage.

Having insurance doesn't matter if there are no doctors.
 

Old Timer

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Let's see...if I painted 1/2 of my house yesterday and I painted the other half of my house today, ALL of my house is about to be painted. Yeah, simple math.
What are you talking about.:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:
 
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you have to admit that it's easy to jump to a label conclusion when you ended your first post with "thanks, libs!"
Republicans piss me off ALL THE TIME and I am just as quick to criticize that group. I'm politically moderate, which is why this STRICTLY partisan bill irks me. You will never hear me favor any wholly partisan bill.
 

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not gonna lie, watching the votes tally up is pretty exciting. it certainly looks like its going to pass.
 
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You are not a liberal. You need logic to be one. But seriously, I don't see this as a liberal or conservative position. But people love to label things and make the health care debate to simple words like "socialized medicine", "government run healthcare", "obamacare". Really? If health care reform is that simple, then it would have happened a long time ago.
You can play semantics all you want, but democrats have embraced and promoted the title of "socialized medicine". And if socialized medicine is not "government run", then what is? Not a liberal position? I've heard it all now.
 

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i especially enjoyed watching the democrats that waited till the last minute to cast their nay votes because they knew that the bill had already passed anyways. saves them a lot of grief during re-election i suppose
 

Old Timer

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You can play semantics all you want, but democrats have embraced and promoted the title of "socialized medicine". And if socialized medicine is not "government run", then what is? Not a liberal position? I've heard it all now.
That may be what they wanted to pass, but that is not what passed. It's an insurance reform bill and that's about it. To claim this is a government take over of 1/6 of the economy is just FALSE.

If you want to know why you were accused of being right wing, it's because you parrot their FALSE talking points.

1/6 of the economy about to be socialized is a FALSE statement.

Canada, England, France and Germany have socialized health care systems. After this bill passes, we will not have a system that looks like any other country's health care system.
 

WVUPharm2007

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They it goes. 219 to 212.

Unfortunately, it isn't a bill with a focus on socialism. It's a bill that on the surface appears to have a focus on fascism. Quite literally funneling money to corporate interests. The insurance companies will grow stronger. The pharma companies will have a heyday. It will be healthcare run via plutocracy. In the long run, it won't be enough to curtail the seemingly exponential growth in percentage of domestic product healthcare has been costing. Healthcare was going to and probably still will probably crush our economy in the next 20 years. Though this may have lessened the blow. The two parties are too ****ing ******ed to do what is necessary.

Single payer is the only thing that will save us long term. Unfortunately, the douchebag Democrats are too in bed with the lawyer and pharma lobbies and the douchebag GOP folks are too in bed with big insurance and the AMA lobbies...and their moronic economic ideologies.

Oh well. **** happens, time to adjust.
 
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OldTimer, I think your dementia is progressing. Even the democrats have called this "socialized medicine". If this doesn't convince you, nothing will.
 

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OldTimer, I think your dementia is progressing. Even the democrats have called this "socialized medicine". If this doesn't convince you, nothing will.

So am I about to lose my private health insurance and will now be handled by the government? I don't care as long as I get to keep my access to healthcare and my $250 per month premium doesn't go up.
 
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Oh, you might care when your 28% tax rate creeps up a few points (maybe alot more) to pay for all of the irresponsible fat a**es that lay on the couch all day and eat potato chips and snickers bars then get T2DM then get HTN then have a stroke. Don't forget about all the chronic smokers and their COPD and lung cancer. Wait, how 'bout them alcoholics? Over her we have the redneck that crashed his four-wheeler while riding down the highway who forgot his helmet but remembered his Bud lite. Hell, it ain't their fault. They're just born dumb. I don't mind paying for certain disorders in certain groups of people, but irresponsible a**holes make up the bulk.[/QUOTE]
 
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StaviZFingerZ

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so what am I missing here?

Insurance co. can't dump insured because of new expensive disease.
Insurance co. can't deny based on pre existing condition.
Students can insured under parents longer.
Small business can get tax credit for providing health insurance for employees.

So someone has to pay for it... and it will probably increase taxes..

How's this socialized medicine?
 

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Oh, you might care when your 28% tax rate creeps up a few points (maybe alot more)

I really don't.

There's no sense in bitching about something you can't control. There are other things in life to worry about.

My goal in life is to pay more taxes... if my rate goes up, then I guess I'll have to increase my income.. so be it.

And I'm sure not going to bitch about how govt spends tax dollars.. once I give it to them, it aint mine anymore.. I can't worry about that..
 

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damn this news pretty much has gotta be the best thing to happen this year! I feel lucky to have been able to watch the debate on it this afternoon, such a historic moment
 

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irresponsible fat a**es that lay on the couch all day and eat potato chips and snickers bars then get T2DM then get HTN then have a stroke. Don't forget about all the chronic smokers and their COPD and lung cancer. Wait, how 'bout them alcoholics? Over her we have the redneck that crashed his four-wheeler while riding down the highway who forgot his helmet but remembered his Bud lite. Hell, it ain't their fault. They're just born dumb. I don't mind paying for certain disorders in certain groups of people, but irresponsible a**holes make up the bulk.
Well, don't forget that it's those irresponsible unhealthy people that allow you to have the job you do in healthcare. Imagine if no one ever got sick and everyone was healthy... there won't be much demand for healthcare practitioners.

:smuggrin:
 

WVUPharm2007

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damn this news pretty much has gotta be the best thing to happen this year! I feel lucky to have been able to watch the debate on it this afternoon, such a historic moment
Dude, it was off the chain. They were calling each other traitors, baby killers, murderers, sons of bitches. It was like Springer. I want more. Hell yeah.
 

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BMBiology

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Don't forget about all the chronic smokers and their COPD and lung cancer. Wait, how 'bout them alcoholics? Over her we have the redneck that crashed his four-wheeler while riding down the highway who forgot his helmet but remembered his Bud lite. Hell, it ain't their fault. They're just born dumb. I don't mind paying for certain disorders in certain groups of people, but irresponsible a**holes make up the bulk.
You and I are already paying for these people. If a guy who doesn't have health insurance and who has COPD because he has smoked for 20 years go into the ER, who picks up his bill? If he's poor, the hospital is going to charge the state or if he won't pay, then the bill gets pass on to other customers.

If this guy has health insurance, then perhaps he would get it check earlier and not wait until his condition has worsen and therefore, has to go to the ER.
 

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They it goes. 219 to 212.

Healthcare was going to and probably still will probably crush our economy in the next 20 years. Though this may have lessened the blow. The two parties are too ****ing ******ed to do what is necessary.
Eh, I agree and disagree. Help crush the economy, I agree. But I don't think 20 years. I'm betting on 10, spouse is betting on 5. Already, before any of this, we have a perfect storm of debt building up, between the unsustainable entitlements we have (I hate that word though, "entitlement." You aren't "entitled" to anything in this world), the debts of the spendthrift states particularly CA, continuing crises in the real estate markets and a new real estate bubble starting in China .. oh and yeah, China, who for population reasons has probably peaked and is going to start having to worry about their OWN financial and social unrest issues in a few years as their demographics shift to a preponderance of poverty-stricken old people due to their one-child policy.

Add to that a hysterically ironic catfight in the EU - German socialists not wanting to bail out Greek socialists because they're well, too socialist - the rest of the PIIGS waiting in the wings for their own bailouts, and I think you have the makings of a severe worldwide crisis in a few years.

Lol, all us "rich" countries are so broke that there will be nobody to bail us out.

Interesting times.
 

Old Timer

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Oh, you might care when your 28% tax rate creeps up a few points (maybe alot more) to pay for all of the irresponsible fat a**es that lay on the couch all day and eat potato chips and snickers bars then get T2DM then get HTN then have a stroke. Don't forget about all the chronic smokers and their COPD and lung cancer. Hell, it ain't their fault. I don't mind paying for certain disorders in certain groups of people, but irresponsible a**holes make up the bulk.
If I called you a Cow, would that make you a cow or would you still be a human being? Even if they did, the bill is NOT socialized medicine. Of course the Democrats have been running from that label for a while much to the chagrin of the far left who want a single payer socialized system. Please name one Democrat who called this bill socialized medicine. Give me a quote from the last few days or even the last few months. You just keep repeating the same FALSE claims over and over and over again and you are shocked we don't accept them. We don't accept them because they are FALSE.

You also have no clue as to the main cause of type 2 Diabetes and that is ethanol. If you don't understand why ethanol is the major cause of type 2 diabetes you are a clueless moron who should refrain from posting anything about government or politics until you take remedial history.

Do you know why ethanol is contributing to T2DM? Ask any nutritionist what single part of our diet is killing us and they will give you the same answer.

Explain it to me. If you can....
 
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I really don't.

There's no sense in bitching about something you can't control. There are other things in life to worry about.

My goal in life is to pay more taxes... if my rate goes up, then I guess I'll have to increase my income.. so be it.

And I'm sure not going to bitch about how govt spends tax dollars.. once I give it to them, it aint mine anymore.. I can't worry about that..
Apathy.
 
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If I called you a Cow, would that make you a cow or would you still be a human being? Even if they did, the bill is NOT socialized medicine. Of course the Democrats have been running from that label for a while much to the chagrin of the far left who want a single payer socialized system. Please name one Democrat who called this bill socialized medicine. Give me a quote from the last few days or even the last few months. You just keep repeating the same FALSE claims over and over and over again and you are shocked we don't accept them. We don't accept them because they are FALSE.

You also have no clue as to the main cause of type 2 Diabetes and that is ethanol. If you don't understand why ethanol is the major cause of type 2 diabetes you are a clueless moron who should refrain from posting anything about government or politics until you take remedial history.

Do you know why ethanol is contributing to T2DM? Ask any nutritionist what single part of our diet is killing us and they will give you the same answer.

Explain it to me. If you can....
Al Sharpton was just on calling this socialized medicine. Damn that was easy.
 

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You and I are already paying for these people. If a guy who doesn't have health insurance and who has COPD because he has smoked for 20 years go into the ER, who picks up his bill? If he's poor, the hospital is going to charge the state or if he won't pay, then the bill gets pass on to other customers.

If this guy has health insurance, then perhaps he would get it check earlier and not wait until his condition has worsen and therefore, has to go to the ER.
Right. He'll get checked out earlier, get more tests ($), see more doctors more often ($$), get more treatments for his condition ($$$), get additional treatments if like so many smokers he just doesn't quit ($$$$), find some additional health problems in the process ($$$$$), rinse and repeat.

Wow, all that saving money sure gets expensive....
 

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I for one am hoping that this bill, because of the way it ties government into health spending, will basically force the government's hand in several years when costs get too high, -- it will force everyone to move right to single payer. At least, I hope..

It is reassuring when you hear the various representatives this afternoon mention that it is only the "first step", that we will eventually move to single payer (clearly the only real option)
 

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BMBiology

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Right. He'll get checked out earlier, get more tests ($), see more doctors more often ($$), get more treatments for his condition ($$$), get additional treatments if like so many smokers he just doesn't quit ($$$$), find some additional health problems in the process ($$$$$), rinse and repeat.

Wow, all that saving money sure gets expensive....
Are you then against preventive care? Are you against treating conditions early? Do you think going to the ER for a flu is cheaper than going to a family physician? That's what uninsured people do. Do you know the biggest portion of the health care dollar goes to hospitals?
 

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Dude, it was off the chain. They were calling each other traitors, baby killers, murderers, sons of bitches. It was like Springer. I want more. Hell yeah.
yeah could be the only time Cspan is actually enjoyable! I wish government was always this fun! hahaha for a minute i told myself "i gotta watch more cspan" but a minute later I realized that this is probably as good as it's ever going to get, unless of course the government starts to break down. Granted the grilling of the auto companies in fall of 08 was great tv too, but still only a distant second.
 

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You said democrat. Wanna change the rules? Sharpton was easy since he was just on tv. Debating you is pointless.
It was pretty obvious that I meant a politician. Also pointing out Al Sharpton as main stream Democrat would be like pointing out David Duke as a main stream Republican. I am not interested in what any talking head calls it.

So I will be blunt. Define socialized medicine and show how this bill fits the definition. This is not a debate. In a debate, you have to make a serious point, something that has not come off your keyboard yet.