10 million dollar malpractice verdict for IM doc due to patient suicide.

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hebel

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Was already posted in another forum, but ridiculous nonetheless. The one positive thing I see in this is that the comment section is largely on the side of the doc. Something rarely seen from the general public in major cases these days.
 
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Wow i wonder what kind of an expert physician witness is responsible for this ridiculous decision.
 
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Not knowing all the facts, but I won’t think it unfair if the physician had failed to screen an obviously depressed patient for SI after multiple encounter.
 
From the article it looks like he was treating, he didn't document properly after prescribing Xanax, I don't see any glaring errors. Obviously there's more to the story. The patient may have been fine at the doctor's and had a major stressor and then he opted to suicide. It would be interesting to learn more about the case, but the only error that popped out was he didn't document anything about why he prescribed the Xanax at a visit. Physicians aren't psychic a patient can be euthymic at the visit and then they find out their spouse is cheating they got fired etc, don't reach out for help and suicide.
 
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If the family became that concerned in the days after the last visit, why didn't they intervene themselves? Why didn't they call police? Why wasn't this guy sectioned?

Edit: I do think that prescribing xanax with no documentation as to why is a bit strange. Prescribing xanax and ambien together also seems a bit iffy in that short of a duration, but I'm guessing that it's done far more routinely than is taught...
 
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Of note from the article:

"But Belair, the defense lawyer, contended the Shouldises were “hopeful” after the June 6 office visit and “looking forward to” the anti-depression medicine and psychological consultation, both of which Strange had prescribed.

He said the couple went about their day normal afterward, shopping and watching a TV movie at home. Mrs. Shouldis testified she had no inkling her husband might commit suicide, Belair said."

It blew my mind that this wasn't emphasized more heavily and that the jury found him guilty after this statement was made. Regardless of how poor the care the patient received may have been, I find it odd that the physician was expected to know this guy was suicidal when his wife didn't even know and she apparently went to the appointments with him. Cases like this are why tort reform is such a big deal in the medical community and one should consider the legal system before deciding to settle down and practice in a state.

Where was it posted?

I believe the EM forums. Popped up in the "new posts" page about a week ago.

Wow i wonder what kind of an expert physician witness is responsible for this ridiculous decision.

I read a little more about the case and I actually don't think there was one. I believe the issue that the jury got hung up on was problems with documentation as well as the patient's general mental state. It sounds like it was a pretty uneducated jury that made a verdict based on emotion instead of facts and I'm guessing this cases will be overturned on appeal.
 
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From all that has been posted, bottom line- DOCUMENT.
 
How do these trials work when they go to appeal? Does a judge opine as to more formal aspects of malpractice? People in the comments mentioned that the doctor would have had to contributed to (i.e. sorta like caused) the outcome yet obviously that's lacking.
 
How do these trials work when they go to appeal? Does a judge opine as to more formal aspects of malpractice? People in the comments mentioned that the doctor would have had to contributed to (i.e. sorta like caused) the outcome yet obviously that's lacking.

There are different levels of deference given to the trial court when it comes to an appeal. These can be different from state to state.

For example, if it is a question of law, no deference is generally given to what the trial judge decides, and the court decides the question itself. For other decisions made by a trial judge, such as whether evidence should be admitted, it is what is called "abuse of discretion", meaning, "the appellate court will affirm unless it determines that the trial court has made a clear error of judgment or has applied an incorrect legal standard."

For the findings of fact, (EDIT: should be "more") less deference is given. For example, in most jurisdictions, the questions of fact are governed by what is known as a "substantial evidence" standard. This means that a jury's factual findings "will be upheld as long as there is competent and substantial evidence that a reasonable mind might accept as adequate to support a verdict."

Malpractice verdicts are reversed on appeal fairly often, and the amount of the damages is reduced even more often. In a case like this what almost always happens is that the plaintiff doesn't want to risk losing on appeal, so the case is settled for the physician's malpractice policy limit.
 
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Wow, article claims doctor asked patient if he was “going to to hurt self” and patient said no. PCP also started an antidepressant and referred to a psychologist. He also documented that he was treating anxiety and depression. Also while I’m not Xanax fan sounds like he diagnosed a patient with two psychiatric conditions, prescribed an FDA approved medication for both and referred to a specialist. Not sure what else a reasonable PCP could be expected to do in this case.
 
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Wow, article claims doctor asked patient if he was “going to to hurt self” and patient said no. PCP also started an antidepressant and referred to a psychologist. He also documented that he was treating anxiety and depression. Also while I’m not Xanax fan sounds like he diagnosed a patient with two psychiatric conditions, prescribed an FDA approved medication for both and referred to a specialist. Not sure what else a reasonable PCP could be expected to do in this case.
But that is not a full suicide risk assessment...
 
I have to say as a patient, there is often an implication that the doctor wants an answer to the SI question that will comfort them and give them some sort of absolution. And it's often part of a rapid-fire checklist where you already feel like you're just clicking "Accept" to the iTunes Terms and Conditions. And in my experience when you're honest, the questions that follow are leading. "But you wouldn't actually want to hurt yourself would you?" The correct answer is implied.

That is a question that if you want the real answer to needs room to breathe with the doctor containing their anxiety over the answer.

I've been told that the reason they are this way is that the alternative, which is to go to a psychiatric hospital, is so horrible that they only want to do it if they think it's literally what will keep you alive. I've asked about hospitalization before in acute states and every time have been told it would be traumatic for me. There seems to be a fear of it. I've talked to therapists, psychiatrists, and in one case a crisis counselor in an ER who made that clear. I've stayed overnight in a regular hospital twice and it was OK, but there does seem to be something particularly weird about psychiatric hospitals. There was a death at a psychiatric hospital near me from medical problems that were not referred to a medical hospital despite patients requesting such, and the psychiatric hospital has tens of 1 star reviews. Honestly reading about it, it does sound pretty horrific how people are both treated and ignored. Plus their web-site does not inspire confidence with a lot of AA/12-step talk, which apparently is what their addiction wing is centered around. I've been in some pretty bad states (including in the ER) where I have been talked out of it.

Anyhow, that's my take on why doctors probably don't want honest answers to those questions. There's just no great thing to do if a person says yes. You can't magically know that the person will survive until you see them next, and yet what good alternatives are there?

As an aside, why are psychiatric hospitals so non-normative when medical hospitals go out of their way to be so hotel-like? Like at all the psychiatric hospitals in my area, you share a room (I looked into it). There's no TV in the room. You can't have personal effects with you. Whereas in a medical hospital, there's cable TV, Wi-Fi, you can use your phone/computer, they have nice big rooms with private bathrooms. A nice woman came by to ask what meals I wanted that they brought me on a tray. When I tried getting info on the psychiatric hospital it sounded like a flophouse with the shared roommate and what sounded like encounter groups. I am very compulsive about certain things, and without going into detail, I basically would have no ability to do my compulsions in such an environment.

And why are psychiatric hospitals separate to begin with? I guess in certain places they are different wards. Where I live, it's its own hospital. But even in a regular hospital, why not keep psychiatric patients in regular rooms? I think the separation and stigmatization makes things worse. If mental health truly is part of the entire system of overall health as is repeated ad infinitum, why is it both separate and unequal? For me, having to give up all my creature comforts and personal items would drastically increase my anxiety and OCD symptoms. I've been told that it would be too traumatic for me to be inpatient in a psychiatric hospital due to my need for control. But how can it be that a place for mental health improvement should be more decompensating than a facility not for mental health? And that's not just my impression; this is what I've been told by mental health professionals. Frankly I'd prefer a Swedish jail—although I'd prefer a Swedish jail over a lot of low-cost motels.
 
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The article brings up some glaring issues I'd want to investigate if I was asked to work on this as a forensic case but it really leaves so many things unanswered to the degree that we really shouldn't draw any conclusions from it.

Xanax especially mixed with Ambien don't sound well, but we don't know the dosages and the duration the person was on it.
 
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I have to say as a patient, there is often an implication that the doctor wants an answer to the SI question that will comfort them and give them some sort of absolution. And it's often part of a rapid-fire checklist where you already feel like you're just clicking "Accept" to the iTunes Terms and Conditions. And in my experience when you're honest, the questions that follow are leading. "But you wouldn't actually want to hurt yourself would you?" The correct answer is implied.

That is a question that if you want the real answer to needs room to breathe with the doctor containing their anxiety over the answer.

I've been told that the reason they are this way is that the alternative, which is to go to a psychiatric hospital, is so horrible that they only want to do it if they think it's literally what will keep you alive. I've asked about hospitalization before in acute states and every time have been told it would be traumatic for me. There seems to be a fear of it. I've talked to therapists, psychiatrists, and in one case a crisis counselor in an ER who made that clear. I've stayed overnight in a regular hospital twice and it was OK, but there does seem to be something particularly weird about psychiatric hospitals. There was a death at a psychiatric hospital near me from medical problems that were not referred to a medical hospital despite patients requesting such, and the psychiatric hospital has tens of 1 star reviews. Honestly reading about it, it does sound pretty horrific how people are both treated and ignored. Plus their web-site does not inspire confidence with a lot of AA/12-step talk, which apparently is what their addiction wing is centered around. I've been in some pretty bad states (including in the ER) where I have been talked out of it.

Anyhow, that's my take on why doctors probably don't want honest answers to those questions. There's just no great thing to do if a person says yes. You can't magically know that the person will survive until you see them next, and yet what good alternatives are there?

As an aside, why are psychiatric hospitals so non-normative when medical hospitals go out of their way to be so hotel-like? Like at all the psychiatric hospitals in my area, you share a room (I looked into it). There's no TV in the room. You can't have personal effects with you. Whereas in a medical hospital, there's cable TV, Wi-Fi, you can use your phone/computer, they have nice big rooms with private bathrooms. A nice woman came by to ask what meals I wanted that they brought me on a tray. When I tried getting info on the psychiatric hospital it sounded like a flophouse with the shared roommate and what sounded like encounter groups. I am very compulsive about certain things, and without going into detail, I basically would have no ability to do my compulsions in such an environment.

And why are psychiatric hospitals separate to begin with? I guess in certain places they are different wards. Where I live, it's its own hospital. But even in a regular hospital, why not keep psychiatric patients in regular rooms? I think the separation and stigmatization makes things worse. If mental health truly is part of the entire system of overall health as is repeated ad infinitum, why is it both separate and unequal? For me, having to give up all my creature comforts and personal items would drastically increase my anxiety and OCD symptoms. I've been told that it would be too traumatic for me to be inpatient in a psychiatric hospital due to my need for control. But how can it be that a place for mental health improvement should be more decompensating than a facility not for mental health? And that's not just my impression; this is what I've been told by mental health professionals. Frankly I'd prefer a Swedish jail—although I'd prefer a Swedish jail over a lot of low-cost motels.

I think this brings up a good point - cases like this reenforce the idea that it’s not our job to understand why a patient is suicidal as much as it is to NOT be the last provider to see a patient before they end their life. From my understanding, inpatient hospitalization doesn’t mitigate suicide risk, and it can be impossible to get a patient in to a psychiatrist, making PMDs the de facto prescribers (and he did try to refer to a psychologist). As a medical system, we want to hear a patient is not suicidal for our own anxiety most of the times, with minimal interest as to the driving cause (often combination of anger, isolation, economic and social factors well outside of our control).

As for the segregation of psych units (1) there is a super high level of scrutiny around suicide precautions leads to pretty spartan designs, (2) its often regulated by a separate state body with its own set of laws, (3) “mileu therapy”, which is a euphemistic way of saying we don’t want patients sitting in their room all day, necessitates more of a community/kindergarten like layout (4) if it feels like a hotel, many people would never leave (which is also a problem in medical hospitals, but they’re somewhat less reliant on patient self-reports when it comes to discharge).
 
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I have to say as a patient, there is often an implication that the doctor wants an answer to the SI question that will comfort them and give them some sort of absolution. And it's often part of a rapid-fire checklist where you already feel like you're just clicking "Accept" to the iTunes Terms and Conditions. And in my experience when you're honest, the questions that follow are leading. "But you wouldn't actually want to hurt yourself would you?" The correct answer is implied.

That is a question that if you want the real answer to needs room to breathe with the doctor containing their anxiety over the answer.
Pretty much. When I saw a new PCP (who I rotated with as a resident years prior, he was like "I gotta ask all the government questions, mood ok, no thoughts of hurting yourself right?" I was there as a new patient for a UTI and he asked and answered the question for me. He then moved onto the next question.
 
I figured it was NY. It is a very lawsuit happy state. All it does is drive up defensive medicine. Vicious cycle if you ask me.
 
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But that is not a full suicide risk assessment...
In the context of a primary care visit, asking about SI and getting a "no" response is probably standard of care for risk assessment. Especially if the patient looks ok. None of these PCPs have any time.
 
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In the context of a primary care visit, asking about SI and getting a "no" response is probably standard of care for risk assessment. Especially if the patient looks ok. None of these PCPs have any time.
We dont have all the facts. But it was brought up he should have referred to psychiatry?
 
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If anything this article shows why any physician other than a psychiatrist should make a nice alliance with one.

I know plenty of doctors that don't know what to do with their patients with mental health problems and inadequately treat them. A guy in my Pathfinder group (it's a type of Dungeons and Dragons) is an IM doctor and he's very happy to have met me. He'll ask me once in a while "what the fuc_ do I do if a patient comes to me and complains of..."
 
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If anything this article shows why any physician other than a psychiatrist should make a nice alliance with one.

I know plenty of doctors that don't know what to do with their patients with mental health problems and inadequately treat them. A guy in my Pathfinder group (it's a type of Dungeons and Dragons) is an IM doctor and he's very happy to have met me. He'll ask me once in a while "what the fuc_ do I do if a patient comes to me and complains of..."

Nerd Alert!!! No shame, I was a hardcore AD&D'er back in the day. Give me 2nd edition rules or give me death.
 
We dont have all the facts. But it was brought up he should have referred to psychiatry?
Really depends on the doctor. Depression and anxiety are definitely in the purview of a typical primary care doctor. I think it's expected for a PCP to initiate treatment, and work through a few antidepressant (SSRIx2, SNRI) at least, then refer out to psychiatry 3-6 months later depending on whether patient is getting better or not. But...a lot of places there aren't any psychiatrists available, so PCPs just hang on to these patients and continue to treat them. Even if psychiatrists are available, even big metro areas, getting into a psychiatrist is not easy. It could take several months to get in to see somebody.

It's a lot different than somebody needing their gallbladder out and a surgeon can see them within a week or two and do the surgery within the month.
 
I figured it was NY. It is a very lawsuit happy state. All it does is drive up defensive medicine. Vicious cycle if you ask me.

THIS! makes me want to go to a tort reform state...torts are capped at 400K!
 
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Nerd Alert!!! No shame, I was a hardcore AD&D'er back in the day. Give me 2nd edition rules or give me death.

Pfffh, everyone knows that 3.5 (i.e. the ruleset current when I was a young adult) is objectively correct, everything before it is an embarrassing anachronism, and everything after it is degenerate garbage.

There's a blog post that doesn't seem to have been written yet exploring parallels between common factors in psychotherapy and the GM advice in some modern indie RPGs, but that's another conversation.
 
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OT but Pathfinder is awesome but sometimes too rules heavy. Lots of rules-lawyering going on. D&D 5E is like Pathfinder-lite to the point where yes less rules lawyering but a lot less dynamics in combat.

They came out with 2nd edition Pathfinder but I tried it and so far it's a bust. I don't know what Paizo will do with it. The general response is negative. My group is sticking with Pathfinder for now. We're going to do a new campaign where we command armies fighting each other with a lot of backstabbing/political stuff going on kind of like Game of Thrones.

First edition D&D is too behind the times but the rulebooks are an absolute joy to read. 2nd edition, never got into it, but I have friends that swear by it.
 
OT but Pathfinder is awesome but sometimes too rules heavy. Lots of rules-lawyering going on. D&D 5E is like Pathfinder-lite to the point where yes less rules lawyering but a lot less dynamics in combat.

They came out with 2nd edition Pathfinder but I tried it and so far it's a bust. I don't know what Paizo will do with it. The general response is negative. My group is sticking with Pathfinder for now. We're going to do a new campaign where we command armies fighting each other with a lot of backstabbing/political stuff going on kind of like Game of Thrones.

First edition D&D is too behind the times but the rulebooks are an absolute joy to read. 2nd edition, never got into it, but I have friends that swear by it.

This is my favorite part :)
 
THIS! makes me want to go to a tort reform state...torts are capped at 400K!
Did some residency in NY. The tone there is as if these heroic attorneys are ridding the world of evil doctors and people act like seeking legal action against so much as a broken nail is some sort of divine intervention directing people into better care. Quite the contrary, what I see in the hospitals is: 1) defensive medicine, too much testing/aggressive treatment followed by invasive procedures for incidental and insignificant findings and iatrogenic complications (e.g. people getting hospitalized for URIs then literally dying of nosocomial infections...I kid you not, I saw it often) 2) lack of transparency in the healthcare system, the hospital has even asked me to sign off on death certificates that even falsified the cause of death 3) fear to do debriefings and analyze chain of events that led to an adverse outcome to help better future outcomes due to concern it could be used in a lawsuit 4) people like us not wanting to touch places like NY with a million foot pole because it's so hostile to work in litigious environments so they actually have less access to care 5) physicians being more consumed with how to defend themselves as opposed to the focus on practicing evidence based medicine leading to worse outcomes for patients. 6) patients getting frustrated hence the cycle continues. There's also this very entitled atmosphere I see more in NY than other states, as if what the patient demands is equivocal to a doctor's recommendations and people keep insisting bigger and more is always better, quite the contrary to that too. Anyways, enough of my rant :).
 
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Did some residency in NY. The tone there is as if these heroic attorneys are ridding the world of evil doctors and people act like seeking legal action against so much as a broken nail is some sort of divine intervention directing people into better care. Quite the contrary, what I see in the hospitals is: 1) defensive medicine, too much testing followed by invasive procedures for incidental and insignificant findings and iatrogenic complications (e.g. people getting hospitalized for URIs then literally dying of nosocomial infections...I kid you not, I saw it often) 2) lack of transparency in the healthcare system, the hospital has even asked me to sign off on death certificates that even falsified the cause of death 3) fear to do debriefings and analyze chain of events that led to an adverse outcome to help better future outcomes due to concern it could be used in a lawsuit 4) people like us not wanting to touch places like NY with a million foot pole because it's so hostile to work in litigious environments so they actually have less access to care 5) physicians being more consumed with how to defend themselves as opposed to the focus on practicing evidence based medicine leading to worse outcomes for patients. Anyways, enough of my rant :).

Exactly this, and patient's complain that it takes several months to get their records from medical records; this is part of the reason. Thankfully atleast in psychiatry we have less of a medicolegal burden compared to others, not a pleasant environment the NE..
 
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I wrote this years back in another thread. While I was in Cincinnati a patient's case manager threatened to have the patient's family sue me. I did nothing wrong. What was going on was the case manager wanted the patient in a long-term facility for life despite that she was doing well and wanted to be in the community. When I asked the case manager what warranted the pt stay inpatient the rest of her life she gave me answers that were not relevant to the legal issues. E.g. "She was raped 20 years ago!," or "I am philanthropist. I adopted 3 disabled children! Obviously you are not!"

I took the case up to the head clinical doctor, told him what was going on, and he couldn't find any reason to keep the patient in the hospital. While I was not worried at all about losing a malpractice case, I was worried about just having to deal with one which would be a huge time waster.

The top lawyer in the city assigned to mental health cases was told what was going on. It was not a HIPAA violation cause we both worked for the state. He told me not to worry one second and that in Cincinnati to get rid of frivolous cases, any malpractice case goes through a panel of 3 judges first and all 3 judges were handpicked to pretty much toss out any malpractice case, not even letting them go to trial, unless it was so glaringly obvious the doctor was at fault. He added that this 3 panel judge thing was added about 10 years before I started even practicing and since then there were almost no malpractice case in that city since then.

It was very nice to have some inside information!

About 3 years later I had another patient threaten to sue me. What happened was I took over her case from an idiot doctor who caved into every addicts demands for controlled substances. I told her I would no provide her benzos (she was on about 4 mg of Xanax a day PLUS Buprenorphine despite that there's a contraindication), unless it was to work on weaning her off of them. She threatened to sue me, got a lawyer, I got served demanding her records. Again I did nothing wrong, didn't fear I'd lose, just was worried about the time-waste, but this time I had pretty much 99% confidence it wouldn't go to court cause of what I was told above. It didn't go to court.

I later had a lunch with a lawyer who told me "In Cincinnati don't ever expect any malpractice suit to go forward."

(And this is why I say if you're a forensic psychiatrist it is very important that you get to know the local legal infrastructure).
 
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I later had a lunch with a lawyer who told me "In Cincinnati don't ever expect any malpractice suit to go forward.".

Very generally speaking the top trial lawyers will not touch medical malpractice cases today. There is far more money in auto accidents and defective product litigation. Of course this will vary depending on the state.
 
As an aside, why are psychiatric hospitals so non-normative when medical hospitals go out of their way to be so hotel-like? Like at all the psychiatric hospitals in my area, you share a room (I looked into it). There's no TV in the room. You can't have personal effects with you. Whereas in a medical hospital, there's cable TV, Wi-Fi, you can use your phone/computer, they have nice big rooms with private bathrooms. A nice woman came by to ask what meals I wanted that they brought me on a tray.

They are bare bones in order to facilitate patient safety. There are no tvs because they have cords, which are a suicide risk. Many personal affects could be used to self-harm or attempt suicide, this is why no patients are allowed to have shoelaces and patients who use supplemental oxygen are required to have constant 1:1 monitoring. Some places do allow you to keep some personal items if they're approved, but what you can bring is often limited based on safety. Many of these patient's also come in with anxiety/depression/other issues which are exacerbated by having internet access. When the patient's mother is constantly trying to call/message them saying they're an awful person who should just die, do you think they'd be better or worse without internet access? Additionally, it prevents the patients from inappropriately contacting people or ruining their own lives. Do you think a manic patient who spent $4,000 on Amazon the week prior to admission should have access to the internet where they can continue to run up their credit card bill?

Staff interactions with patients is also limited for safety. Some patients are so anxious that having random strangers bringing food, ordering labs, etc increases their stress. At the same time, psychotic or manic patients may attack staff who aren't trained to work on a psych unit. One rotation I did a member of facility staff was attacked by a patient when he was in the patient's room mopping the floor. Patient wasn't in the room and the janitor had his back to the door. Patient walked in and immediately started beating him. Guy went straight to the ED and ended up getting ankle surgery.

Plus it's more closed off and monitored because people do outrageous things. I've seen patients attack staff (almost been attacked myself), attack each other, try to have sex with each other in the middle of the floor, throw feces and other bodily fluids at people, attempt to kill themselves, etc. This is obviously not a day to day thing, but those risks are always present and risk has to be minimized. Heck, I had a patient who wasn't allowed access to food areas because she'd steal sporks and try and cut herself. She also wasn't allowed to keep her toiletries in her room because she'd break the deodorant caps and try and cut her wrists. Some units are certainly nicer than others, the one I just worked on was as nice as the rest of the hospital.

You also have to remember that psych hospitals don't make places much money and often times lose money. So hospitals aren't going to dump a bunch of money into units that lose money and won't stay nice for long after being renovated.

We dont have all the facts. But it was brought up he should have referred to psychiatry?

He did refer to psychology. Though it sounds like the patient had expressed relief and optimism about his final encounter which may have led the doc to not refer at that point. Obviously many details missing, but I'd still say that given what is known this was a ridiculous verdict.

This patient was having money problems. Did he see the doctor and commit suicide to get the family a payday?

This sounds like a definite factor for the lawsuit, as the wife admitted she had no idea he was suicidal and the family asked for a pretty substantial sum (and won).
 
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They are bare bones in order to facilitate patient safety. There are no tvs because they have cords, which are a suicide risk. Many personal affects could be used to self-harm or attempt suicide, this is why no patients are allowed to have shoelaces and patients who use supplemental oxygen are required to have constant 1:1 monitoring. Some places do allow you to keep some personal items if they're approved, but what you can bring is often limited based on safety. Many of these patient's also come in with anxiety/depression/other issues which are exacerbated by having internet access. When the patient's mother is constantly trying to call/message them saying they're an awful person who should just die, do you think they'd be better or worse without internet access? Additionally, it prevents the patients from inappropriately contacting people or ruining their own lives. Do you think a manic patient who spent $4,000 on Amazon the week prior to admission should have access to the internet where they can continue to run up their credit card bill?

Staff interactions with patients is also limited for safety. Some patients are so anxious that having random strangers bringing food, ordering labs, etc increases their stress. At the same time, psychotic or manic patients may attack staff who aren't trained to work on a psych unit. One rotation I did a member of facility staff was attacked by a patient when he was in the patient's room mopping the floor. Patient wasn't in the room and the janitor had his back to the door. Patient walked in and immediately started beating him. Guy went straight to the ED and ended up getting ankle surgery.

Plus it's more closed off and monitored because people do outrageous things. I've seen patients attack staff (almost been attacked myself), attack each other, try to have sex with each other in the middle of the floor, throw feces and other bodily fluids at people, attempt to kill themselves, etc. This is obviously not a day to day thing, but those risks are always present and risk has to be minimized. Heck, I had a patient who wasn't allowed access to food areas because she'd steal sporks and try and cut herself. She also wasn't allowed to keep her toiletries in her room because she'd break the deodorant caps and try and cut her wrists. Some units are certainly nicer than others, the one I just worked on was as nice as the rest of the hospital.

You also have to remember that psych hospitals don't make places much money and often times lose money. So hospitals aren't going to dump a bunch of money into units that lose money and won't stay nice for long after being renovated.



He did refer to psychology. Though it sounds like the patient had expressed relief and optimism about his final encounter which may have led the doc to not refer at that point. Obviously many details missing, but I'd still say that given what is known this was a ridiculous verdict.



This sounds like a definite factor for the lawsuit, as the wife admitted she had no idea he was suicidal and the family asked for a pretty substantial sum (and won).
Psychology is not psychiatry
 
I'm not sure if documenting is the larger issue in this case. I just re-read the article to see what you all meant about not documenting the Xanax. Unless you have cameras in the office, I don't see how these paper records hold much weight.

I have looked at my medical records in the past, and the documentation can be wildly inaccurate. For example, I saw a therapist recently who wrote that I began seeing a psychiatrist when I was 5 years old for OCD. In fact, I developed OCD at 5 years old, but I didn't see a psychiatrist until I was 14. Also when I had surgery for my appendix, the radiologist's report of my CT scan said I had metastasized cancer in my pelvis. Neither the ER doctor nor the surgeon noticed this—only my PCP noticed it when he finally got the report. It turned out to be a speech-to-text software issue that caused the error. And if I look back at the ICD-10 codes used to justify some of the blood work I've had done, they're just all over the map. I don't even think a doctor picks them. I think maybe a medical assistant picks one and sees if it will work because they're fairly haphazard, often not even in the same area as the test being ordered.

If I were making a case in this instance, it would have been over the specific medications and whether he was qualified to accept and treat the patient for the presenting situation. If people were practicing rational medicine, you would have to argue it's quite an edge case that a person would need two GABA agonists and to add them both in such short order. He might as well have prescribed a scotch on top of it to make sure every last receptor was saturated. Because what is the real change in this situation (with the limited info we have)? It's not this doctor. The patient was already receiving care, apparently for cholesterol and presumably other such everyday issues, and was an acquaintance and former co-worker of the doctor. No change in relationship. The only real change that we know about was the sudden introduction of three psychiatric drugs.

Also, he was prescribed Ambien by having left a message with the office. There was no evaluation. No checking for why he wasn't sleeping well. And that was AFTER he had prescribed Xanax. If you had prescribed a patient Xanax, they called your office saying they couldn't sleep, would you prescribe Ambien without seeing the patient? And would you not be concerned that after giving them Xanax and Ambien they still come in to see you just two days later?

Probably the most damning piece of evidence is that he referred his patient to a psychologist and not a psychiatrist, meaning that the doctor was going to continue assuming the role of medication provider in spite of none of his interventions having worked to that point. In fact, he didn't stop the Xanax when his symptoms worsened. He added Ambien, then re-prescribed Xanax and Lexapro. Why would you re-prescribe a drug that wasn't working? His actions indicate he thought he had a handle on this from the pharmaceutical side of things.

Perhaps it was inappropriate for him to be treating someone who was essentially a family friend.

But none of this on paper adds up to a case where it was obvious that the patient would die by suicide.

Except: The big piece of the puzzle we don't have is the patient's presentation in the appointment.

I think the surrounding circumstances of the patient continually escalating the requested level of care paint a plausible presentation of him being in dire straits.

Escalation:
Xanax prescription (unknown reasons)->Call to office regarding insomnia->Ambien prescription without evaluation->Appointment required (only two days later after Ambien script)->Xanax re-prescribed and Lexapro added, need for psychologist as decided by doctor

Who has an appointment just two days after getting a new psych drug? A desperate person.


Of note from the article:

"But Belair, the defense lawyer, contended the Shouldises were “hopeful” after the June 6 office visit and “looking forward to” the anti-depression medicine and psychological consultation, both of which Strange had prescribed.

He said the couple went about their day normal afterward, shopping and watching a TV movie at home. Mrs. Shouldis testified she had no inkling her husband might commit suicide, Belair said."

It blew my mind that this wasn't emphasized more heavily and that the jury found him guilty after this statement was made.

We don't know if that statement was made. That's what the DEFENSE attorney said that she said. It's a quotation from the lawyer, not the wife. This is what the accuser's lawyer said she said: "Charlene Shouldis testified at trial she was concerned her husband would kill himself, and he should have been admitted to the hospital right away, Cannavo said."

The article is giving each lawyer's account of what his wife said about his suicidality, and they're saying opposite things. Given that he was given a new drug to try on June 4 and still went into the office on June 6 and was then given two more drugs that day, I would say she and he probably realized he was in an urgent situation.
 
No, but I'm sure they can perform suicide risk assessments better than most IM/FM docs can...

Depending on where we were trained any what populations we were trained in, we can do it better than most other MH professionals. Working with Borderline PD and DBT training definitely helps in that. Now, the fly by night, diploma mills, who knows WTH they're doing.
 
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Depending on where we were trained any what populations we were trained in, we can do it better than most other MH professionals. Working with Borderline PD and DBT training definitely helps in that. Now, the fly by night, diploma mills, who knows WTH they're doing.
Exactly right. So the product is not uniform when you get a psychologist.
 
Exactly right. So the product is not uniform when you get a psychologist.

It's not uniform when you get a psychologist, psychiatrist, social worker, masters, etc. I see people do these all of the time across disciplines. Most of it is shoddy, to say the least. Just meeting the bare minimum of documenting.
 
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The training is still uniform though

I've been affiliated with several med schools in my training and as a faculty. I think you overestimate how uniform some of this training is. I've seen stark training differences in both the Neurology and Psychiatry training at different institutions.
 
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From the article it seems like there were several yellow/red flags:
1) prescribed Xanax without documentation
2) Added Ambien (already a questionable combination) without being seen
3) Did not properly follow up on the causes of the significant decompensation in a single week with a 6 lb weight loss. It's not enough to diagnose someone with MDD and send them on anti-depressants after asking them if want to kill themselves; need to dig deeper and probably the PMD did not have enough time for that. My guess is that something was brewing for a while and went undetected.

I also can't help but think the Xanax had a role to play this. Rebound anxiety --> palpitations, inability to sleep --> anxious distress -->.... I don't know why Xanax is the go to medications for PMDs. Why not try Klonopin first?

I don't think the "fault" in how the the PMD reacted after the session. Probably most providers would still have sent the patient home. It's the big holes in the documentation that caught up with him. Which is an unfortunate reminder for us all never to cut corners and always do your work to the T cause you don't know what's waiting around the corner.
 
Somewhat pathetic bare minimums are uniform. If you actually read the requirements for accreditation of residency programs you could throw together something pretty half-assed and still get by.
Did you know that IM docs don't have to be able to put in central lines or tap ascites? The range of procedures actually required of internists is pretty much nothing. (Place I rotated intern year--none of the residents could do procedures.)
 
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