11 year surgical residency...

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John Lannister

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http://studentdoctor.net/2013/05/20-questions-mona-g-flores-md/

Dr. Mona G. Flores is the director of ventricular assist devices for the Division of Cardiothoracic Surgery at University of California, Davis, Medical Center in Sacramento. Prior to studying medicine, Flores studied business, earning a bachelor's degree in business administration from American University of Beirut, Lebanon (1986), and an MBA in management information systems from State University of New York at Albany (1988). From 1991-1992, she took post-graduate science courses at University of California at Los Angeles, then earned a master's degree in biology from San Jose State University (1995). Flores earned her MD from Oregon Health Sciences University in Portland (1999), and completed a general surgery residency at FINCH University of Health Sciences/The Chicago Medical School (1999-2004), followed by a post doctoral research fellowship with the Cardiothoracic Surgery Department at Stanford University (2002-2004). Dr. Flores completed another general surgery residency at UCSD School of Medicine, San Diego (2004-2006), a cardiothoracic residency at Columbia University Medical Center (2006-2008), and a LVAD fellowship with Columbia University Medical Center, Junior Attending (2008-2009).

Has anyone ever heard of an 11 year surgical residency?

Holy crap.

Not to mention that it appears she went to school for 13 years before that 11 year residency... 24 years of college + med school/residency = wow. Assuming 12 years of education before college, that's 36 years of education (+loans!). PGY-6 intern FTW!

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I *have* heard of 11 years in surgical training (7 year GS+3 year fellowship+1 year super fellowship).

It appears that she did a standard 5 year GS residency followed by 2 research years in the lab (these are typically done during residency, not after). I'm not sure what was up with the "GS residency" at UCSD for 2 years but the rest is pretty standard: 2 years CT fellowship followed by an LVAD super fellowship.
 
I *have* heard of 11 years in surgical training (7 year GS+3 year fellowship+1 year super fellowship).

It appears that she did a standard 5 year GS residency followed by 2 research years in the lab (these are typically done during residency, not after). I'm not sure what was up with the "GS residency" at UCSD for 2 years but the rest is pretty standard: 2 years CT fellowship followed by an LVAD super fellowship.

Wow. Hats off for those people making it through 11 years of training.
 
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Yep. I didn't do 11 years but it can be painful and frustrating to want to get on with your life while your friends are doing normal things.

BTW, our own users Buzz Me and esuMD are on the 10 year CT Surgery track - they're years 8 or 9 right now IIRC.
 
http://studentdoctor.net/2013/05/20-questions-mona-g-flores-md/



Has anyone ever heard of an 11 year surgical residency?

Holy crap.

Not to mention that it appears she went to school for 13 years before that 11 year residency... 24 years of college + med school/residency = wow. Assuming 12 years of education before college, that's 36 years of education (+loans!). PGY-6 intern FTW!

Is that just a bad picture or has she been going to school so long that her smiling muscles have atrophied
 
I hope she doesn't retire at 65. All that training for 15 years of productivity doesn't sound too good.
 
I *have* heard of 11 years in surgical training (7 year GS+3 year fellowship+1 year super fellowship).

It appears that she did a standard 5 year GS residency followed by 2 research years in the lab (these are typically done during residency, not after). I'm not sure what was up with the "GS residency" at UCSD for 2 years but the rest is pretty standard: 2 years CT fellowship followed by an LVAD super fellowship.

Seven yr GS residency? What kind of residency would that be, I thought they were all 5 yrs max and then whatever extra is fellowship.
Forgive my pre-med ignorance...
 
Seven yr GS residency? What kind of residency would that be, I thought they were all 5 yrs max and then whatever extra is fellowship.
Forgive my pre-med ignorance...

You can do research years during a GS residency where you have a light(er) clinical/call schedule and you do lab research. This increases the the length of training.

It has become customary at many competitive academic programs for all or most residents to spend 7 years in general surgery residency, with 2 years devoted to research.

Then many go on to do 1-3 years in fellowship and potentially a "superfellowship" for a year after that. Frankly that's way too hardcore for me.
 
Hell LVAD's are too hardcore for me. I'm just glad that I moved away from them when I left Long Island, they always freak me out lol, like, when do you stop CPR if someone on an LVAD is coding...
 
Just out of curiosity, is 2 years of research standard at academic GS programs? What about just one year? Isn't a single research year standard in other surgical subspecialties?
 
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Yep. I didn't do 11 years but it can be painful and frustrating to want to get on with your life while your friends are doing normal things.

BTW, our own users Buzz Me and esuMD are on the 10 year CT Surgery track - they're years 8 or 9 right now IIRC.

I just vomitted in my mouth a little thinking about spending a decade training.....
 
This is almost certainly because she is a FMG. Obviously I don't know the specifics for her, but it probably has to do with visa status. Otherwise, some specialties require FMGs to practice in academics for many years to become board eligible. Or, it could be a combination of the two. She obviously is dedicated, talented and appreciated by the academic institutions she has been a part of.

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Just out of curiosity, is 2 years of research standard at academic GS programs? What about just one year? Isn't a single research year standard in other surgical subspecialties?

I think in peds surgery, the 2 years of research is required to get the peds fellowship. That's 9 years standard, ugh .
 
This is almost certainly because she is a FMG. Obviously I don't know the specifics for her, but it probably has to do with visa status. Otherwise, some specialties require FMGs to practice in academics for many years to become board eligible. Or, it could be a combination of the two. She obviously is dedicated, talented and appreciated by the academic institutions she has been a part of.

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Did the state of Oregon cede from the US already or is OHSU otherwise located on foreign territory? :rolleyes:
 
This is almost certainly because she is a FMG. Obviously I don't know the specifics for her, but it probably has to do with visa status. Otherwise, some specialties require FMGs to practice in academics for many years to become board eligible. Or, it could be a combination of the two. She obviously is dedicated, talented and appreciated by the academic institutions she has been a part of.

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She went to undergrad in Beirut... she did masters work then went to medical school in the US. Might be on your mobile and didn't read the original article in its entirety.
 
Hell LVAD's are too hardcore for me. I'm just glad that I moved away from them when I left Long Island, they always freak me out lol, like, when do you stop CPR if someone on an LVAD is coding...

I'm not going to comment on the medical validity of it, but we have a solution, we just put everyone on ECMO. But then we end up with an ECMO farm. At least thats what I feel like our CVICU turns into sometimes.
 
Just out of curiosity, is 2 years of research standard at academic GS programs? What about just one year? Isn't a single research year standard in other surgical subspecialties?

two years seems to be the standard. Not exactly sure the reasoning. Definitely was NOT going to a program with mandatory research :boom:

Survivor DO
 
Touché. Could potentially still be a visa issue. Otherwise it is pretty crazy to keep doing fellowships like that.

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I think in peds surgery, the 2 years of research is required to get the peds fellowship. That's 9 years standard, ugh .

Not required, but since peds fellowships are among the most highly competitive (very few spots, pretty much the only surgical fellowship with more US Grad applicants than available spots - ratio is almost 2:1), in order to get a spot, people have to do something to set themselves apart.
 
Just out of curiosity, is 2 years of research standard at academic GS programs? What about just one year? Isn't a single research year standard in other surgical subspecialties?

There are some mandatory 7 year programs, some where it is "highly suggested" and others where it may be an option. Over 75% of GS residents do a fellowship and in some, the research time is expected. I trained at the 2nd type. One year is generally not enough time to get published, hence the typical minimum of 2 years in GS; some may even do 3 years in the lab.

Some subspecialties do include a lab year or research time spread out during residency. GS is most well known for dedicated 2+ years research time.

This is almost certainly because she is a FMG. Obviously I don't know the specifics for her, but it probably has to do with visa status. Otherwise, some specialties require FMGs to practice in academics for many years to become board eligible. Or, it could be a combination of the two. She obviously is dedicated, talented and appreciated by the academic institutions she has been a part of.

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Since she completed a US surgical residency, she would be considered Board Eligible (BE) regardless of where she did her undergraduate or medical school training, as long as she met other requirements (ie, possessed a US medical license, etc). The American Board of Surgery does not require practice (in or out of academics to become BE). As a matter of fact, some CT Surgery fellowships do not even require BE as they find attracting US candidates difficult, so are open to foreign trained physicians.

Not required, but since peds fellowships are among the most highly competitive (very few spots, pretty much the only surgical fellowship with more US Grad applicants than available spots - ratio is almost 2:1), in order to get a spot, people have to do something to set themselves apart.


While Peds Surg is indeed competitive, it is hardly the only surgical fellowship with more applicants than spots. Even Breast Surgery has more, as does PRS, Colorectal and Surg Onc (the ones I know about specifically). But yes the research is partly to set oneself apart, to learn how to run a lab, to make connections and to produce publications.
 
Maybe she's loving it!

Her picture doesn't capture that, does it? I suspect she is doing exactly what she wants to do, which is the ultimate.

That being said, her comment about her family is an eye-opener:

I have a husband and a son, and I definitely do not spend as much time with them as I would like. Each physician will have to find their own balance.

The Chief of CT surgeon for whom I worked often told people that his wife raised his kids. He barely had any influence on them.
 
I think in peds surgery, the 2 years of research is required to get the peds fellowship. That's 9 years standard, ugh .

And then there is a good chance that you won't get the fellowship even after all that time :scared:
 
Her picture doesn't capture that, does it? I suspect she is doing exactly what she wants to do, which is the ultimate.

That being said, her comment about her family is an eye-opener:

I have a husband and a son, and I definitely do not spend as much time with them as I would like. Each physician will have to find their own balance.

The Chief of CT surgeon for whom I worked often told people that his wife raised his kids. He barely had any influence on them.

Idk, good for her man. I don't know if we can judge how happy of a person she is from a single snapshot lol. She sounds like she knew what was coming before she got into it. Tremendous sacrifice, but if you acknowledge that and understand the sacrifices, and make it work the way you want to, then why not? She sounds like she has a great attitude though and probably an awesome surgeon. Some people are willing to go through anything and everything to create the career they want for themselves. That's what it's all about in the end.

Medicine is a weird field though. Most fields are purely set up for making cash, and so is medicine but there are so many aspects to it. Not many fields people are willing to go through more years of grueling training to make less money (I think).
 
I'm not going to comment on the medical validity of it, but we have a solution, we just put everyone on ECMO. But then we end up with an ECMO farm. At least thats what I feel like our CVICU turns into sometimes.

sigh, why I don't like this stuff. Please, give me a pulse or no pulse situation anyday...
 
I knew of a peds CT surgeon who did college + med school + general surgery residency + PhD in immunology + CT surgery + peds CT surgery (all in the US, at places like Duke and Stanford), which took 22-23 years or so.
 
two years seems to be the standard. Not exactly sure the reasoning. Definitely was NOT going to a program with mandatory research :boom:

Survivor DO

As mentioned above, one year isn't often going to be enough to collect data and get published. We aren't talking about a quick chart review like you might do in med school. Many of the people I know who did two years loved it and wished it could be three -- it generally is a very 9-5 couple of years, in the middle of an 80 hour work week residency.
 
Why anyone would want to do this to him/herself is beyond me.....
 
Wait, am I getting this right...peds specitalties are in high demand? Seriously?
 
While Peds Surg is indeed competitive, it is hardly the only surgical fellowship with more applicants than spots. Even Breast Surgery has more, as does PRS, Colorectal and Surg Onc (the ones I know about specifically). But yes the research is partly to set oneself apart, to learn how to run a lab, to make connections and to produce publications.

Sorry - Breast fellowship results aren't listed on the NRMP Fellowship Match results page (same with PRS and Surg Onc). Colorectal was exactly 1:1 US Grads to spots last year, while Peds surg had 59 US grads to 38 spots (1.55:1). Also, I think it's more important to look at US Grads only, given the inherent advantage for US Grads and the audience of this website, it appears to be the most relevant measure of a specialties' competitiveness.
 
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