1st Choice Residency Match Percent

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Enginerds

New Member
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2006
Messages
76
Reaction score
0
Well like many of you I'm trying to decide between schools and one of the most telling criteria to me seems to be the percent of 1st choice matches for residency. I though we could start a thread that showed this info. Also please list the source of your information (The info below is from USNews):

DMU-COM: 74.7%

NSU-COM: 75%

PCOM: 70.6%

Western: 51.4%

Members don't see this ad.
 
I think that statistic is completely meaningless. The school didn't get those guys their residencies. They did it themselves with hard work and smarts.

If you want a residency at a certain place that happens to be a core site for School X, then School X might be a good idea. Otherwise, you'll set up your elective rotations at places you might want to do a residency and make your contacts that way.

Go to the school you like best.
 
This is a very misleading statistics and probably tells as much about the school's advising as the quality and how highly it is regarded.

For instance, perhaps western doenst do a great job of keeping sub-par students from applying for and ranking competitive residencies. Or perhaps DMU has a firm grasp on their students and will prohibit a student from applying certain programs without thier consent.

Remember that since it comes down the the computer program, just based on luck and what others choose a person could get their second or third choice rather than their first.

A better statistic that US news probably has is the % that match to their top 3. That still will be misleading though based on the percentage of the class that applies for competitive residencies. So if a school has a larger percentage of their students applying for Derm, ortho, ophtho, plastics, ent, rads etc they will have a smaller percentage match to their top 3.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
This is a very misleading statistics and probably tells as much about the school's advising as the quality and how highly it is regarded.

For instance, perhaps western doenst do a great job of keeping sub-par students from applying for and ranking competitive residencies. Or perhaps DMU has a firm grasp on their students and will prohibit a student from applying certain programs without thier consent.

Remember that since it comes down the the computer program, just based on luck and what others choose a person could get their second or third choice rather than their first.

A better statistic that US news probably has is the % that match to their top 3. That still will be misleading though based on the percentage of the class that applies for competitive residencies. So if a school has a larger percentage of their students applying for Derm, ortho, ophtho, plastics, ent, rads etc they will have a smaller percentage match to their top 3.
I don't disagree with you. It may not be completely due to the education the school provides, but the end result of attending medical school is moving on to a residency. If school A does better job of putting people into their choice of residency than school B, regardless if it is due to a better "advising", I think that it is a benefit to the students. I've been at schools with poor advisors, and it is really a handicap because you have to do all your networking without support.

As for schools that match people into more competitive residencies having a lower 1st choice match, I don't buy that. I would say that PCOM has more people going to competitive specialties than Western (based on looking at their match lists) but there is a significantly higher percentage of 1st choice matches for PCOM.

Tex, I think that you are correct that the student will earn the residency they get, but it doesn't hurt to have help from your schools networking resources. You and I are similar in that we both have worked hard to overcome poor GPAs. I have no doubt that we will both succeed because we understand that if we work hard we can accomplish what we set out to. But the fact is if you are trying to get into a competitive residency, your schools networking connections and reputation can open more doors for you, with all other things being equal (boards, grades, LORs etc).
 
I think its from match.com

DMU and NSU put their students with hot chicks at a very high rate, whereas Western students end up with fat chicks a lot of the time.
 
Uhh, exactly which "match" does this data represent? AOA match? ACGME match? This is pretty useless.
The data provided does not say whether is is AOA match or a combination of AOA & ACGME, or strictly ACGME. I sent your question to USNews people, I'll post when I get a response. These stats are from the 2006 match results.
 
I think its from match.com

DMU and NSU put their students with hot chicks at a very high rate, whereas Western students end up with fat chicks a lot of the time.
That's because there are no hot chicks in the inland empire, and if there were all the UCLA and USC students would take them...
 
I've tried to dig up meaningful information for DO's and match rates. It's really almost an unanswerable question based on the number of variables involved. I tend to agree with Tex on this. I think your performance is likely the biggest variable involved. Schools reputation must have something to do with it on some level, but I doubt it's measurable.
 
I think its from match.com

DMU and NSU put their students with hot chicks at a very high rate, whereas Western students end up with fat chicks a lot of the time.

Dude, you are funny. I laugh at almost every post.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Tex, I think that you are correct that the student will earn the residency they get, but it doesn't hurt to have help from your schools networking resources. You and I are similar in that we both have worked hard to overcome poor GPAs. I have no doubt that we will both succeed because we understand that if we work hard we can accomplish what we set out to. But the fact is if you are trying to get into a competitive residency, your schools networking connections and reputation can open more doors for you, with all other things being equal (boards, grades, LORs etc).

I agree with you Enginerds. Whether it should matter or not, going to certain schools does matter and opens more doors than going to some others. There are some (a minority) that are able to break this stereotype. But, you do have to admit that going to a prestigious school opens more doors while going to a Carib med school likely closes more doors no matter how you rock some of the step exams (again, in general....I'm not referring to the exceptions like "well 2 out of 150 grads from school X last year matched into surgery"). I'm not sure why some people still argue going to certain schools whether it be a more prestigious school or a school that graduates more students who get 1st residency choice doesn't matter.

Some members here have first tried the MD route only and failed. When they couldn't make it to an MD school due to their low stats, now they jump on the DO bandwagon and state how a person's performance in med school regardless of MD/DO or the name of the school matter. This type of statement is so hypocritical. I'd like to ask why they didn't even apply to DO schools the first time around.

In an ideal world one's performance and knowledge should be the only thing that matters. But, that isn't so. Certain schools producing students who get more % of 1st choice residency preference may not tell you the entire story. But, it does give you some insight.
 
How could you possibly know? Seriously.

I assure you that if you can do the work in this business, it will get you a gig. Someone who went to Prestigious School X will not be chosen over someone from a school that is not well-known if he or she is incompetent. There are things like clinical rotations and board scores that put everybody on a level playing field, so that there is an objective way to judge med school grads, as opposed to looking simply at where they went to school.

I went the MD route the first time and didn't apply DO because I didn't know what the hell a DO was. I had heard of it, but I didn't really get it until a few events occurred:

1. I went to a dermatologist appointment. The guy turned out to be a DO. I found this out when I mentioned that I had just applied to medical school. He told me that he actually felt that he had MORE opportunities as a DO than he would have had as an MD.

2. A guy who has been mentoring me through this process told me that he thought that PCOM was every bit as good of a school as his school, when it comes to educating physicians. By "his school", I mean the University of Pennsylvania, where he was a professor and oncologist (he is now with the NIH). He told me that an older applicant like myself, particularly one with an athletic background, might be a good fit for a DO school. This guy is a buddy of my uncle's. My uncle is a microbiologist at Stanford, and they went to school together.

3. I started volunteering at the trauma center, and there were DO's left and right.

Until then, I just didn't get it. I didn't even know what a DO was until well into my pre-med education. Nobody knows what the hell DO's are, but it really doesn't matter once you're out of school.

People (who are stupid) always cite the fact that DO schools don't put a lot of people into specialties. Well no ****. That's what they try to do. As a result, people who want to be generalists and primary care physicians are attracted to DO school. As are older applicants who may not want to spend a long time doing residency and fellowship training.

So maybe a lot of DO schools are taking people who couldn't get into MD schools. There could be a variety of reasons for this, and they don't all have to do with how smart people are. Those who really aren't as smart may be stuck doing something they don't want to do. Those who are will show.

The fact of the matter is, once you've graduated from medical school, if you can get the job done, you will be given a chance. If I go to medical school, do well, get good recs, make the right contacts, and do as well as I think I should on my boards, then I will have my choice of surgery residencies that will certify me for critical care, and I will be chosen over people who went to prestigious MD schools.

Why? Because I know these people, and I am smarter than most of them. I was pre-med with tons of people who ended up at Baylor and UT-Southwestern. I remember tutoring them for MCAT prep and various other subjects.

And my assessment of the situation isn't from my own imagination. Aside from the UPenn oncologist, I've also got a neurosurgeon who went to UT-Southwestern helping me with this process, and a whole slew of MD's and DO's from the trauma center where I volunteer. Their message is all the same: show that you're willing to work hard, and that you can do the job at a high level, and you will write your own ticket, regardless of where you go to school.

Now whether Random Stupid Person X will allow a DO to be his or her physician or not is another story. But there are enough Random Stupid Person Y's who prefer DO's, for whatever reason, and few enough DO's, that this will balance out.

Again, this whole school prestige/MD/DO nonsense is a construct of the idiot pre-med imagination.
 
Certain schools producing students who get more % of 1st choice residency preference may not tell you the entire story. But, it does give you some insight.

Not really...and let me explain why. Let's take the PCOM class that matched in 2005 as an example. Granted this is the AOA match, because the other figures aren't available. Yet, most of PCOMs graduates entered the AOA match. Now PCOM is considered to be one of the best DO schools, right? So they should have one of the best % of first choice rates, right? Well....technically they are at 91%, with 136 of 149 getting their first choice. Well...that must mean they had a lot of Anesthesiology matches, right? Ummmmm....no. They had zero. Well....what about diagnostic radiology? They probably had lot's of those, right? Ummmmm...no. They didn't have any of those matches either. Hmmmmm......well, I know they must have had a bunch of surgery matches, right? After all they have one of the best, if not the best, surgical programs aroung. How'd they do there? Well....actually they had zero match into surgery too.

At this point you must be thinking just exactly where did all those % 1st choice matches go to then. Traditional Rotating Internships....well, actually only 75% of them went to Traditional Rotating Internships. That was their first choice, huh? Yep. That was their first choice. Not anesthesiology, not radiology, not even surgery. 112 people in that class chose a Traditional Rotating Internship as their first choice. Why? Because the state of Pennsylvania won't give them a license to practice medicine unless they do. It won't matter if they move to Georgia, or Iowa, or North Dakota....but if they stay in PA then they need it.

How then can you possibly say that the % of first choice really matters for PCOM? The same applies to some other schools. It's just not that big of a deal.

If you want to take it farther, however, you can use that number of 70.6% in the OP and extrapolate how many people from PCOM got their 1st choice in the allopathic match. They had 245 total graduates. 96 entered the allopathic match. If 70.6% (from USNews) of 245 graduates got their 1st choice, then 39% (37 of 96) got their 1st choice. Hmmmmm...I still don't know what fields they chose, though, so it really doesn't tell me very much.
 
I think I love you. You'll be a great, level-headed doc

How could you possibly know? Seriously.

I assure you that if you can do the work in this business, it will get you a gig. Someone who went to Prestigious School X will not be chosen over someone from a school that is not well-known if he or she is incompetent. There are things like clinical rotations and board scores that put everybody on a level playing field, so that there is an objective way to judge med school grads, as opposed to looking simply at where they went to school.

I went the MD route the first time and didn't apply DO because I didn't know what the hell a DO was. I had heard of it, but I didn't really get it until a few events occurred:

1. I went to a dermatologist appointment. The guy turned out to be a DO. I found this out when I mentioned that I had just applied to medical school. He told me that he actually felt that he had MORE opportunities as a DO than he would have had as an MD.

2. A guy who has been mentoring me through this process told me that he thought that PCOM was every bit as good of a school as his school, when it comes to educating physicians. By "his school", I mean the University of Pennsylvania, where he was a professor and oncologist (he is now with the NIH). He told me that an older applicant like myself, particularly one with an athletic background, might be a good fit for a DO school. This guy is a buddy of my uncle's. My uncle is a microbiologist at Stanford, and they went to school together.

3. I started volunteering at the trauma center, and there were DO's left and right.

Until then, I just didn't get it. I didn't even know what a DO was until well into my pre-med education. Nobody knows what the hell DO's are, but it really doesn't matter once you're out of school.

People (who are stupid) always cite the fact that DO schools don't put a lot of people into specialties. Well no ****. That's what they try to do. As a result, people who want to be generalists and primary care physicians are attracted to DO school. As are older applicants who may not want to spend a long time doing residency and fellowship training.

So maybe a lot of DO schools are taking people who couldn't get into MD schools. There could be a variety of reasons for this, and they don't all have to do with how smart people are. Those who really aren't as smart may be stuck doing something they don't want to do. Those who are will show.

The fact of the matter is, once you've graduated from medical school, if you can get the job done, you will be given a chance. If I go to medical school, do well, get good recs, make the right contacts, and do as well as I think I should on my boards, then I will have my choice of surgery residencies that will certify me for critical care, and I will be chosen over people who went to prestigious MD schools.

Why? Because I know these people, and I am smarter than most of them. I was pre-med with tons of people who ended up at Baylor and UT-Southwestern. I remember tutoring them for MCAT prep and various other subjects.

And my assessment of the situation isn't from my own imagination. Aside from the UPenn oncologist, I've also got a neurosurgeon who went to UT-Southwestern helping me with this process, and a whole slew of MD's and DO's from the trauma center where I volunteer. Their message is all the same: show that you're willing to work hard, and that you can do the job at a high level, and you will write your own ticket, regardless of where you go to school.

Now whether Random Stupid Person X will allow a DO to be his or her physician or not is another story. But there are enough Random Stupid Person Y's who prefer DO's, for whatever reason, and few enough DO's, that this will balance out.

Again, this whole school prestige/MD/DO nonsense is a construct of the idiot pre-med imagination.
 
How could you possibly know? Seriously.

I assure you that if you can do the work in this ...

I'm not necessarily talking about prestige. Though I can imagine that to the average person a physician trained at a world renowned school will come with the assumption of being a better Dr., rightfully or wrongfully so. I mean in my opinion, the Kroger brand of canned corn tastes the same as the Green Giant, but despite the fact Kroger is cheaper and tastes the same the majority go with the Green Giant. People tend to associate more with a household name, or at least a name they are familiar with, be it between DO/MD, DO/DO or MD/MD. Yes I know that your quality and skill as a physician will eventually create your own reputation, but I don't think it would hurt to have a "more prestigious" name on your degree (if there is such a thing). And yes like you say, there is probably a minority of people who would prefer DO, but I'm not trying to compare DO/MD here.

I was speaking more to the fact that some schools seem to do a better job of promoting their students. Now you can attack that statement and say that it is just stupid pre-med perception and in the real world it makes no difference, but you have to get your foot in the door somewhere and I am saying that having a school that helps promote their students by having strong networking ties, through whatever channels they may be (name recognition, # of Alumni out there, hospital relationships with the school etc.), can only help make the battle easier. This is not to say that you cannot make your own destiny, sure if you work hard enough you are likely to get what you want, but I don't use a typewriter over MS Word just because I know if I work hard enough I will get the same end result. I want to choose the school that give me the best of everything. If I have choices between where I can go I want to make the best choice. I want to choose the school with the best resources.

Now maybe I am looking at the wrong data, looking at matchlists seems to tell me what students went into, but as you say who the hell knows what those students wanted. For all we know they could all want primary care but some had to settle for general surgery. Looking at percent of 1st choice seems to tell me what percentage of students got the residency they wanted. I don't know any other way to compare how well a school promotes and advises it's students. And again, if I was only accepted to one school I wouldn't even care about these numbers because I wouldn't have to make a decision on where to go. And maybe these statistics shouldn't even be part of my decision, but being a scientific thinker like most people on here, I am trying to find a logical way to compare the schools.

And scpod, I understand the point you keep bringing up. I know a number of students would put traditional rotating as there 1st choice if they want to practice in one of those 5 states. Does this mean that this statistic is useless? I don't think so. I'm not saying you need to agree with me. But I don't think looking at these stats, being fully aware of the possible discrepancies in the data and how it relates to specialties, is worthless or stupid. I am not dumb enough to base my entire decision on this statistic, but it is something to consider in the overall decision making process.

In the end if I see there is no logic to these numbers (like many of you have stated) I'll probably just go somewhere near the beach.
 
In the end if I see there is no logic to these numbers (like many of you have stated) I'll probably just go somewhere near the beach.

In the end, you must get an interview in order to get a residency. The number one thing that stops people from getting an interview is board scores. I think it's especially true if you are a DO applying to ACGME residencies. Did you know that University of Florida's cut off for their IM residency is 600? Yep, 200 points above passing for an IM residency-- 100 points above the average score. It doesn't matter where you graduated from...if you don't have a 600, you don't get an interview.

What seels it once you get the interview. The number one thing program directors I've talked to want to know is, "Do you fit into our program?" The second thing is, "Are you a hard worker?" Honestly, if you are a slacker do you really think that any amount of alumni support is going to help? If you don't fit in with everyone else, do you really think they are going to want you around just because you went to X school?

Most people talk to the places they want to rank for the match and ask them if it's a good idea. If a residency says they aren't going to rank you then you won't put them down unless you just crave dissappointment. People are most likely to pick top choices where they will get ranked. You might not get your top one but most people are gonna get into the top 2 or 3 anyway, regardless of where they went to school.
 
In the end, you must get an interview in order to get a residency. The number one thing that stops people from getting an interview is board scores. I think it's especially true if you are a DO applying to ACGME residencies. Did you know that University of Florida's cut off for their IM residency is 600? Yep, 200 points above passing for an IM residency-- 100 points above the average score. It doesn't matter where you graduated from...if you don't have a 600, you don't get an interview.

What seels it once you get the interview. The number one thing program directors I've talked to want to know is, "Do you fit into our program?" The second thing is, "Are you a hard worker?" Honestly, if you are a slacker do you really think that any amount of alumni support is going to help? If you don't fit in with everyone else, do you really think they are going to want you around just because you went to X school?

Most people talk to the places they want to rank for the match and ask them if it's a good idea. If a residency says they aren't going to rank you then you won't put them down unless you just crave dissappointment. People are most likely to pick top choices where they will get ranked. You might not get your top one but most people are gonna get into the top 2 or 3 anyway, regardless of where they went to school.
scpod, I am assuming all other things being equal. I'm not expecting that because I go to "such and such" school it will get me into a residency if I have crap board scores and am a slacker.

But maybe the statistic that is a better gage of the schools acedemic quality is the average boards scores, if that is the #1 thing that stops people from getting competitive residencies. What would you consider a more important statistic when comparing schools? I'm talking strictly based on academic qualities.
 
What would you consider a more important statistic when comparing schools?

I would be the wrong one to ask because my choice wasn't really based on any statistic. I have two friends who are DOs, both orthopaedic surgeons, and they told me that it really doesn't matter where you go because the education is pretty much equal. I have some friends who are MDs too, in PEDs, OB, and 2 in cardiology. They told me that with the changes in reimbursement over the last 15 years, they would pick the cheapest school possible. Again, they didn't see a reeal advantage from one school to another. Granted, they are a small subset of the population, but I took their advice in some ways.

I realized that anyone could get a great residency if they apply themselves, regardless of school choice. I have this half insane notion that people perform better when they are happy. So, I picked places where I thought I might be happy and interviewed there. Do you know my number one criteria at the outside? NO SNOW. It sounds silly, but I hate it. Along the interview trail, fortunately, I ran into a school that I absolutely fell in love with AND ituition was only 5 grand a year more than my two state schools. Oh, and did I mention that it's next to the beach warm all year long.

As to your question... If I were really concerned with stats, I'd look at average board scores. Unfortunately, the data is not readily available. I still can't say that a school with great avg. scores will prepare me better (it might just be in the type of student they accept or the motivation) but it's the only one that truly makes sense to me. It's a tough decision in any case.:luck::luck:
 
If school A does better job of putting people into their choice of residency than school B, regardless if it is due to a better "advising", I think that it is a benefit to the students. I've been at schools with poor advisors, and it is really a handicap because you have to do all your networking without support.

The whole idea of advising is to guide people towards reality, not toward their top choice. So you do your school work and when it comes time to apply for interviews the advisor tells you what reality is. That means a student might want to rank Harvard #1 but if they are a crappy student and the school has good advising they will be pursuaded not to rank that highly and rank something else #1. So a good advising system will boost that stat tremendously.

So really it is of benefit to the student and to the school. The student doesnt rank their real #1 as #1 and has a better chance of getting a residency and the school gets better match stats. Often students want to rank a certain specialty but the advisors basically tell them they are dreaming. The student must choose another specialty or risk not matching.
 
Top