MD 1st Year almost done - Seriously thinking about quitting

[anbuitachi]

Except for the little point where as a PA you are always subservient to a physician, in one way or another. You don't make your own decisions. Many here would not be able to do that. I know I wouldn't.

I don't think it will be that many years away before PA are allowed to practice independently, at least in some states. We seem to be moving towards a 'mid level' type of healthcare system as a way to lower cost... unfortunately.
And I agree some, especially for those with a huge ego, that may be an issue, but i think many people wont see that as a problem. It's a stress free environment if you have a good employer and with the # of jobs out there, it shouldn't be that hard to find. When you are covered by a physician, you don't really have to worry about malpractice, cause they'll sue the MD.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[SterlingMaloryArcher]

I don't think it will be that many years away before PA are allowed to practice independently, at least in some states. We seem to be moving towards a 'mid level' type of healthcare system as a way to lower cost... unfortunately.
And I agree some, especially for those with a huge ego, that may be an issue, but i think many people wont see that as a problem. It's a stress free environment if you have a good employer and with the # of jobs out there, it shouldn't be that hard to find. When you are covered by a physician, you don't really have to worry about malpractice, cause they'll sue the MD.

Just think how weird the nomenclature would be of the title "Physician Assistant" who isn't supervised by a physician. I think the PA scope is maxed out as it is. I was extremely surprised to find out that PA's can fulfill Virginia's Level I Trauma Center 24/7 staffing by surgical subspecialists criteria (for the initial trauma response/workup, not actually doing trauma surgery independently.) But the next level of independence would contradict the most fundamental definition of a PA. I'm not saying it couldn't happen. For example, I predict a new title and independent license will be awarded as a kind of "Primary Care fast-track." The FNP basically is, but I could easily see a grandfather/bridge program for PA's to earn recognition & licensure as a non-doctoral, independent practice role.

 

[PreMedMissteps]

Obviously, if the OP will hate being a doc then move on.

That said, I can't help feel that the OP might later regret not finishing and then what? No med school would ever again accept him. Med school can suck. The first two years can really suck. If it's mostly just the classroom aspect of the first two years, suck it up and get thru it.

Everyone here has likely been told by doctors or M3s and M4s that they hated those first two years and loved moving onto clinical rotations. Hell, I've even been told by a few docs that they hated science classes....but they still find their careers rewarding. (But realize that all careers have negative aspects ... you've seen the bumper sticker: the worst day fishing is better than the best day at work.)

OP, do some soul searching. If you were to quit, would it later bother you? Imagine your family dynamic. Sometimes coming from a family of doctors and then not becoming one, can make one feel like an outsider. But of course, if the career wouldn't be a vocation for you and you don't have the heart for it, then move onto the path that's right for you.

 

[Inception8888]

Your posts suggest a few things:

You seems to equate passion with being naive or blindly in love with something. Nothing in life is perfect or easy. You compromise always in life. Every time you chose something you're turning down something else.

You seem entitled. You come across as the privileged child of two doctors who was raised to believe life can be tamed to fit you. Welcome to being a grown up, it kinda sucks sometimes. A lot of times. You just have to pick what aspects of pain you want to deal with.

You're young. That will pass. One way or another you're gonna wake up and be 30. 35. 40. What are you going to regret more, spending thousands of hours training to be a physician at the expense of some number of social events/parties/fun OR are you going to regret waking up at the age of 40, still worrying about how to make ends meet, and having blown through your youth with nothing to show for it?

See, you can't have it all. You cannot accomplish great things without sacrifices. On the other hand, not everyone needs to accomplish great things. And the definition of great is different from one person to the next.

Leaving medicine might be the right thing for you. And please understand, anything that seems critical of your post is an outsider's view of the situation, which presumably is why you started this thread. It's so that maybe others point out flaws in your thought process so that you can adjust your thoughts and arrive at the best possible decision.

Good luck.

Sorry, but your post comes off as complete BS and elitist. She is 23 and if she is bright enough to get into medical school, I am more than sure she is more than capable doing well in any other field. You're basically implying that she is going to do nothing but party if she does not get her MD? Are you saying that not being an MD means not having existence nor a purpose for living and she will live an unstable life full of regrets? There are many other professions that can provide excellent stability and good income. Also, good income is highly subjective. Strictly financially speaking MD fare better than a garbage man but Bill Gates would look at MD income and be like "wow I just made that in 2 minutes, with what that cardiologist made in a year with ZERO liabilities." Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg do not even have bachelors degrees and they became billionaires. A good idea and hard work will get you anywhere. Medicine is just ONE option on the grand scheme of life.

I have a lot of other friends who are MDs and they have regrets. They love the job because they love people and the money is comfortable but they would say that they feel trapped at times. Everyone has a different perspective. If it works for you...that's great.

Also, doctors can also have insecure jobs as well. Loss of license, being fired for lack of performance or just not billing depending on the work modalities are real issues, lowered reimbursements, high malpractice costs, burnout, etc.

 

[bannie22]

Intern year is brutal so far. But I have a wife. And she needs nice things.

So gotta keep the hustle up. I thought about quitting first year of med school but I think most jobs suck. Unfortunately there's no job that pays you 1 million dollars a year to sit on the couch and play xbox.

you have no clue what you are talking about.
im not the most familiar with xbox, but the world of esports is $$$ and will only continue to grow rapidly.

 

[Spodermin]

Were you by any chance forced into medicine; given that both your parents are physicians?

 

[bbbcccppp]

I only read the original post plus a few. First don't make any major life decisions when you feel off balance, hyper aware, depressed or unstable. Also not when you feel a compelling pressure to make a major decision. In other words I am guessing wait at least a month or 2 to make this decision

Big decision and unfortunately I think you have 87654321 pros and 87654321 cons either way.

You would be around patients or X-rays or pathology slides and not around other doctors primarily. I don't have a single close Dr friend after many years of practice. Just the way it worked out for me.

I wonder if job change will address everything that you are feeling. Please take this as concern but is it possible that a counselor or professional might help your decision? I believe that I would basically be very similar to my current self no matter what job I had decided upon. For example How does an athlete know if they should study or aim for the pros. It's gotta be tough. High risk high reward either way. Passion is great but it can become a cliche. I wouldn't look for an easy answer

On the other hand I have a sibling who needed a less stressful job to make himself happy. He went through three different iterations of jobs. Not a doctor but just felt his job stresses too heavily. Basically needed to work in a company to feel calm.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[ACSurgeon]

Sorry, but your post comes off as complete BS and elitist. She is 23 and if she is bright enough to get into medical school, I am more than sure she is more than capable doing well in any other field. You're basically implying that she is going to do nothing but party if she does not get her MD? Are you saying that not being an MD means not having existence nor a purpose for living and she will live an unstable life full of regrets? There are many other professions that can provide excellent stability and good income. Also, good income is highly subjective. Strictly financially speaking MD fare better than a garbage man but Bill Gates would look at MD income and be like "wow I just made that in 2 minutes, with what that cardiologist made in a year with ZERO liabilities." Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg do not even have bachelors degrees and they became billionaires. A good idea and hard work will get you anywhere. Medicine is just ONE option on the grand scheme of life.

I have a lot of other friends who are MDs and they have regrets. They love the job because they love people and the money is comfortable but they would say that they feel trapped at times. Everyone has a different perspective. If it works for you...that's great.

Also, doctors can also have insecure jobs as well. Loss of license, being fired for lack of performance or just not billing depending on the work modalities are real issues, lowered reimbursements, high malpractice costs, burnout, etc.

You're taking my post out of context. The OP made a comment about the time commitment and wasting their youth in school. 99.99% of successful people work their tail off for a long time. Zuckerberg and Gates are the exception not the rule. And doctors don't just do better than garbage collectors. They do better than 90-95% of working people.

My point: you have to make sacrifices to accomplish great things. Whatever that might be. Most people won't fall into a billion dollar idea. MD is not the only great thing, and not is it the greatest thing for everyone. The OP is already in med school, so in a lot of ways, becoming a doctor might be the Most obvious path to success. If the OP leaves med school, they may or may not find a different path to success.

 

[bbbcccppp]

Didn't he take a seat from only 1?

Caboose issue?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[bbbcccppp]

Except for the little point where as a PA you are always subservient to a physician, in one way or another. You don't make your own decisions. Many here would not be able to do that. I know I wouldn't.

Agree. It would be hard to have the skills of the definitive decisioner without the authority


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[grapefruit17]

you have no clue what you are talking about.
im not the most familiar with xbox, but the world of esports is $$$ and will only continue to grow rapidly.

No i know quite a bit. Sc w3 wow cod etc. know them all. To be that level of good and profit, is insanely hard. Therefore it's not a realistic expectation

 

[grapefruit17]

And dota 2

 

[Brahnold Bloodaxe]

I agree with the OP on the gist of his complaints even if the outcome I draw from them is completely different.

Does medical school suck? Hell yeah, who in their right mind wants to spend their 20's studying the whole day.
-So what though? Before I went to med school I worked a job that paid pretty well, not six figs but not far from it. My everyday existence was not very different from my existence as a med student: wake up, go sit at a desk for 10 hours, go to hotel and go to sleep soon after. If you're single, working a 9-5 for 80k is not a very different lifestyle than studying medicine at 20k when it comes to how much freedom you have to "enjoy" your life.

Do I think the majority of my classmates are insufferable punks? Yes, but I think the majority of the US population are insufferable punks, especially in the big cities where I had to work so it's a wash.

Will I enjoy the practice of medicine, thus making the sacrifice "worth it?"
-No idea, probably not, and I don't care much either way. You work to earn a paycheck, not to "self actualize." Self actualization is what you do when you're not working, and practicing medicine is working. Last time I checked, there are still ways to make $300k as a physician while working 6 months out of the year, and if that continues to be the case when I'm an attending it will most certainly have been worth it. I'll eat the sheit sandwich of medical school for a few more years for the privilege of working whenever I want, taking time off whenever I want, and making beaucoup bucks while I'm at it.

Ironically, I think those who enter medicine for "selfish" reasons are more likely to come out the other end satisfied with their decision than those who at 22 years old don't care about the money and just want to "help people." The first category are more realistic about the reality of the world and human nature in general, so are less likely to be disappointed by the reality of "being a doctor" than those who hold "being a doctor" in some kind of mythical esteem that cannot help but fall short of the reality.

 

[deleted480308]

Agree. It would be hard to have the skills of the definitive decisioner without the authority


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

A PA does not have the skills of the definitive decision maker

 

[bbbcccppp]

A PA does not have the skills of the definitive decision maker

Granted. Potential might be a better choice of words.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[bbbcccppp]

Intern year is brutal so far. But I have a wife. And she needs nice things.

So gotta keep the hustle up. I thought about quitting first year of med school but I think most jobs suck. Unfortunately there's no job that pays you 1 million dollars a year to sit on the couch and play xbox.

Executive Vice President in charge of Xbox game testing. boom.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[ACSurgeon]

I agree with the OP on the gist of his complaints even if the outcome I draw from them is completely different.

Does medical school suck? Hell yeah, who in their right mind wants to spend their 20's studying the whole day.
-So what though? Before I went to med school I worked a job that paid pretty well, not six figs but not far from it. My everyday existence was not very different from my existence as a med student: wake up, go sit at a desk for 10 hours, go to hotel and go to sleep soon after. If you're single, working a 9-5 for 80k is not a very different lifestyle than studying medicine at 20k when it comes to how much freedom you have to "enjoy" your life.

Do I think the majority of my classmates are insufferable punks? Yes, but I think the majority of the US population are insufferable punks, especially in the big cities where I had to work so it's a wash.

Will I enjoy the practice of medicine, thus making the sacrifice "worth it?"
-No idea, probably not, and I don't care much either way. You work to earn a paycheck, not to "self actualize." Self actualization is what you do when you're not working, and practicing medicine is working. Last time I checked, there are still ways to make $300k as a physician while working 6 months out of the year, and if that continues to be the case when I'm an attending it will most certainly have been worth it. I'll eat the sheit sandwich of medical school for a few more years for the privilege of working whenever I want, taking time off whenever I want, and making beaucoup bucks while I'm at it.

Ironically, I think those who enter medicine for "selfish" reasons are more likely to come out the other end satisfied with their decision than those who at 22 years old don't care about the money and just want to "help people." The first category are more realistic about the reality of the world and human nature in general, so are less likely to be disappointed by the reality of "being a doctor" than those who hold "being a doctor" in some kind of mythical esteem that cannot help but fall short of the reality.

It's nearly impossible to know what you're getting into until you're in it. Maybe former nurses or PAs or inpatient pharmacists who decide to go back to med school actually have an idea.

For most pre-meds, they get into medicine mostly based on theoretical things they think will give them satisfaction at work and in life. Being a physician gives you a very stable job, great pay, and automatic high degree of credibility and respect in your community. Yes, doctors aren't as revered as they once used to, but you can't tell me your local church attendees, butcher, barber etc won't have some level of respect for you without even knowing you, just based on profession.

My advice: if you're mostly just interested in helping people and have a bleeding heart, maybe go to nursing school or go work for a charity or a cause. However, if you enjoy helping people, enjoy the sciences, and have an incredible work ethic and ability to tolerate delayed gratification for a nice life and paycheck at the end, medicine might be right for you. But it really has to be a combination of all things. If you're just doing it for the money, you'll be too miserable for too long and might not tolerate all the obstacles, difficult personalities, and frank abuse that is medical education.

 

[Brahnold Bloodaxe]

My advice: if you're mostly just interested in helping people and have a bleeding heart, maybe go to nursing school or go work for a charity or a cause. However, if you enjoy helping people, enjoy the sciences, and have an incredible work ethic and ability to tolerate delayed gratification for a nice life and paycheck at the end, medicine might be right for you. But it really has to be a combination of all things. If you're just doing it for the money, you'll be too miserable for too long and might not tolerate all the obstacles, difficult personalities, and frank abuse that is medical education.

I agree with the bleeding heart part but not necessarily the "for the money" part. I guess it depends how someone grew up. For me, if I could pound rocks in the hot sun for 10 hours a day every other month with no fear of the work ever running out and make 300k a year doing it, I'd be cool with it. I figure medicine will at least be no worse than turning big rocks into small rocks so it will be difficult for life to fall short of my expectations.

 

[ACSurgeon]

I agree with the bleeding heart part but not necessarily the "for the money" part. I guess it depends how someone grew up. For me, if I could pound rocks in the hot sun for 10 hours a day every other month with no fear of the work ever running out and make 300k a year doing it, I'd be cool with it. I figure medicine will at least be no worse than turning big rocks into small rocks so it will be difficult for life to fall short of my expectations.

The problem with that is, you can easily lose hope and fail to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Harsh labor with instant pay might be easier to tolerate than 8 years of borrowing a lot of money and feeling like failure could happen at any point, followed by another 3-10 years of training with varying types of challenges. Add to that, if you have to support a family, it's hard for them to wait 10 years for you to start earning good money. That's why I'd be worried about someone who's doing it just for the money.

 

[anbuitachi]

Just think how weird the nomenclature would be of the title "Physician Assistant" who isn't supervised by a physician. I think the PA scope is maxed out as it is. I was extremely surprised to find out that PA's can fulfill Virginia's Level I Trauma Center 24/7 staffing by surgical subspecialists criteria (for the initial trauma response/workup, not actually doing trauma surgery independently.) But the next level of independence would contradict the most fundamental definition of a PA. I'm not saying it couldn't happen. For example, I predict a new title and independent license will be awarded as a kind of "Primary Care fast-track." The FNP basically is, but I could easily see a grandfather/bridge program for PA's to earn recognition & licensure as a non-doctoral, independent practice role.

True but they can easily get past this by either proposing a name change, which i think some already wanted, or just getting a 'doctorate in PA degree', (like what nurses are doing) and you can start introducing yourself as Dr. XYZ, and no one will know you are a PA.

 

[Slytheryn]

Before I reply to the other comments, I just want to give a big THANK YOU to all who answered and tried to help me.
I really appreciate every input, even the ones that disagree with me, actually I thank a lot to the ones who disagree with me and it wasn't my intention even for a second to be rude to any of you, I just manage this thread in a "debate-style" and I find it important that all of us speak our minds.

Currently I'm still in the middle of exams and I'm still focusing on them, despite these conflicting thoughts inside of me, so I am still thinking about this decision, I still haven't quit.

There were some of you who thought that I might need counseling : thanks, but I am fine and I won't jump off a building
I just talk about things in an intense way and it might give different impressions to different people.

The reason for why I'm taking this so seriously is that I truly like Psychiatry, it was the only field in which I truly loved shadowing a physician and it is a field that I am genuinely interested about and that I could see myself mastering.
I'm conscious that there is a process that has to be completed to get to any destination, but I can't help having some moments of reflection in which I question whether doing a process that I dislike 90% is worth doing just to get to the destination.
I don't even think about this because I would be lazy or entitled, but I think about this to make sure that I can complete this process without becoming the type of bitter and burned-out doctor in the end, because that would make the whole journey pointless, given the fact that I want to become a psychiatrist, which means that my number one priority is to maintain a very powerful mental health.
This is the most important thing for me and this was the reason for why I questioned Med school and I can understand that there are lots of people out there who have different priorities, so for them this is not a concern at all.
I just wanted to explain why this is very important to me.

 

[Medstart108]

I would still have some exams to pass, but I have passed many also, however I had probably the most brutal existential twists in my entire life and now I just can't seem to find enough motivation to continue on this path. This field, in which I put so much hope and effort, turns out to be another deal-breaker for me.

Why is that ?

• I realized I don't want to spend the rest of my life with the people in this field. I don't want to offend anyone and I know many of you are great persons, but there is simply an excess of those types of persons that I don't want to deal with on a daily basis.
• Both my parents are doctors and they are still very hypocritical and puzzled about the reason they chose Medicine: they say it was passion, but for most part of my life, I saw them struggling; I saw them doing it mostly for the money, because back in their times the investment was way smaller and the profit was way bigger, so I think it was a great career choice for them, however it wasn't something they were genuinely passionate about and I see the same thing at my peers ( a dishonest person will always recognize another dishonest person, so it's not hard to tell who is truly passionate about it and who is faking it ); I would say that it just shows on their face that if someone would give them the salary for the rest of their lives as a physician, they would quit pursuing Medicine - because their passion is a forced and faked passion, if there would be no money in it, many would quit
• Finally, the most important part : I had my own "military philosophy" about life a few years ago and I said that I'm going to grab all the extremely unattractive parts of Medicine and I'm going to use them to discipline myself, but I just don't want this anymore and not because I couldn't do it, but because I don't see a point in doing it anymore. I'm waking up every morning and thinking to myself that "You're 23, you're 23, you're 23....." and I see everything going so slow and so monotonous every single day, and I'm thinking to myself that yes, I wanted this very much, but I don't want to spend my youth becoming a full-time robot, living up to others' expectations all the time, rushing like a headless chicken, etc.

Besides this, I have a very wild and non-conformist nature, so there is something inside me that rebels against this whole Medical culture.
Quoting George Carlin's words ( it fits perfectly this situation ) : " F*ck those people. F*ck that ****. Look at this stupid ****. " - Somehow no matter how great I think the Medical field could be, the reality always makes me think about the previous statements.

I listened to more than a hundred different people who work in the field, the ones who have actually found some peace and joy, and I've come to the conclusion that they all made compromises one way or another. I wouldn't be able to make these compromises and I think I would never truly fit in.

This is not even an easy decision for me, because honestly I have nothing to go to, if I quit Medicine, I have to start from scratch in any field, so it's not like I'm taking the easy way out or that I would be a coward, actually I'm terrified of what is ahead of me if I quit. The only thing that wouldn't be a problem is the debt, because I don't have a debt to pay back ( yes, I know for many of you this is an enormous thing, but trust me, the fact that I have no skills whatsoever or idea about what to do with my life is crippling enough ).

Thanks for reading, maybe some of you can relate or even if not, any opinion is welcomed !

I understand what you are feeling. It gets worse dramatically during clerkship in my opinion. A lot of the positives of medicine, the science, the helping people, the curing illness, the future of research rears its big ugly head when you hit the wards. The reason is because the reality is just so much worse than the textbook case. The first time you diagnose a CHF case will be interesting, but what real life shows you is that this CHF case is in someone who doesn't care to take care of themselves, doesn't want to leave hospital and you diagnose something in this patient and present the case to a resident who is burnt out and doesn't care about your diagnosis, or tells you to stop caring, or tells you you didn't do enough physical exam and you go from resident to resident getting yelled at, patient to patient dealing with their gripes and complaints and people feel happy to dump on you. Everyone expects you to be perfect, but no one is, and you constantly hear the message that "you chose this field" or "quit if you don't like it", as if it is that easy.

I wish I could say it gets better, but it probably won't. If you are seriously contemplating quitting in first year, think of a good alternative career route. Don't quit without a plan, that is a recipe for regret. Explore that alternative career plan before you dive in. Quitting is irreversible, so don't do it lightly, but I would not fault you one bit for quitting and while I personally am afraid to quit, I do have days where the workload and added stress is overwhelming and I regret going into med.

 

[Slytheryn]

There is no "perfect" job.

I am not the type who is obsessed with perfection. I was once that type, but I re-trained my mind to erase this concept of "perfection" and just take the pain with the pleasure, because this creates the contrast in life and I wouldn't have it any other way.

However, I think that there is that type of pain that you just embrace, because you know it's worth it, and there is the other type of pain that makes you not enjoy even the pleasurable parts.
I think there is a lack of understanding when it comes to the concept of pain and discomfort. For example, if we take a professional football team's training : a guy who has an athletic body with broad shoulders, powerful legs, well-formed muscles and strong limbs is going to feel a totally different pain than the guy who is incredibly skinny, has weak musculature and fragile bones.
Of course that both of them are going through discomfort, but it would be ridiculous to say that both of them are experiencing the same level of discomfort. At the end of the day, the athletic guy has significantly higher chances to be satisfied with his career than the skinny guy, and it has nothing to do with the fact that he would handle better hard work, it's just that he is more suitable for that type of job. The skinny guy has a higher risk of quitting, simply because the type of discomfort he experiences is not worth it.

The same type of denial and lack of self-knowledge is happening in Medicine also for many people and then we wonder why are depression and suicide rates so high. All this for what ? Because they don't accept that not everyone is made for Medicine, no matter how much effort is put into it ( and especially, how much money is invested in it ).

I know things in US are harder, because you have crippling debts compared to Europe. Here we have many Medical schools that don't leave students with such high debts.
So obviously I don't want to be a smartass and pretend that what I wrote can be applied to everyone, but for those who aren't burdened by the debt, it's worth to consider it.
I heard from US students that "I swear I wouldn't think twice about quitting Med school if I wouldn't have the debt !" - Well, guess what, here many people don't have any debt and they still don't quit, although they would like it. The pride and the fear of social judgment doesn't let them quit, it has nothing to do with money.

My father is a cardiologist and he also teaches in Med school. Often times he told me what a shame it is that the quantity of students increases, but the quality of doctors decreases every year. He's saying that he wouldn't want to work with 50% of the students that are in Med school, because most of the time they are nervous, bitter, superficial, confused and robotic.
He said that if they would be more honest with themselves and if they would dare to actually do what they really want to do, they wouldn't be this way - actually, they would leave Med school and he would finally get rid of them
Only the fact that so many of them are so shallow and susceptible to social conditioning that they are willing to go through all this training for some prestige tells a lot about a person.

 

[Inception8888]

You're taking my post out of context. The OP made a comment about the time commitment and wasting their youth in school. 99.99% of successful people work their tail off for a long time. Zuckerberg and Gates are the exception not the rule. And doctors don't just do better than garbage collectors. They do better than 90-95% of working people.

My point: you have to make sacrifices to accomplish great things. Whatever that might be. Most people won't fall into a billion dollar idea. MD is not the only great thing, and not is it the greatest thing for everyone. The OP is already in med school, so in a lot of ways, becoming a doctor might be the Most obvious path to success. If the OP leaves med school, they may or may not find a different path to success.

No, not taking anything out of contexts and my garbage man reference is actually ONE example. Please, read between the lines before posting. 90-95% of the working people? Do you actually have statistics on that? Do not reference Glassdoor.com, MSNBC, CNBC as your resources for incomes of various professions and their annual incomes. Higher annual incomes also do not equate to higher net worth...you seem to be confusing the 2. Reference the article by the The White Coat Investor regarding physicians who have high annual income but low net worths. Also, read the article written by an internist who took a job in California and called the profession...the 1 million dollar mistake. There are only a handful of countries that can afford to pay their doctors very well. The US pays their physicians the best in the world. Countries like China, India, Pakistan, any nation in Africa, South America...never see well off incomes. My cousin, who lives in a different country, just finished her medical degree and her dad said they really don't make anything in their country and wanted to send her daughter to New York to work there instead. So don't use American incomes references as the norm around the world either. Why do you think there is a high influx of physicians around the world that want to come to the US besides better standard of living for their professions? I don't think its because they're huge fans of watching baseball and eating apple pie. They want the comfortable lifestyle for their profession.

Again, Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg are examples. Half my friends do not have bachelors degrees. They are self taught in computer programming and make 6 figure incomes. Another friend of mine runs an extremely successful car sales company. Has a house in Florida, Chicago, a new boat, sports cars, etc. Another friend of mine has a bachelors degree and works for Google and has no liability, 6 figure income and was valedictorian of our high school when we graduated. I am MORE than sure he could have been a neurosurgeon at Harvard IF he had the passion for medicine, which he said he never did. Another, valedictorian in our school, started an educational company and its doing very well...also could've been a brilliant doctor since he was a straight A student in sciences and mathematics and has been in gifted programs since he was 8 years old. Medicine was also not his passion.


MY point: Yes I agree that you have to make sacrifices and work extremely hard to do well in ANYTHING in life BUT the theme of your comments is centered as NOT BEING PHYSICIAN = LIFE FAILURE. If you had just said..."hey not being a physician is not the end of the world...however if do you want to succeed in anything you have to make sacrifices whether it being longer days, more projects, tougher clients, more traveling in whatever profession you choose."...then I would be like yes i TOTALLY agree.

 

[ACSurgeon]

No, not taking anything out of contexts and my garbage man reference is actually ONE example. Please, read between the lines before posting. 90-95% of the working people? Do you actually have statistics on that? Do not reference Glassdoor.com, MSNBC, CNBC as your resources for incomes of various professions and their annual incomes. Higher annual incomes also do not equate to higher net worth...you seem to be confusing the 2. Reference the article by the The White Coat Investor regarding physicians who have high annual income but low net worths. Also, read the article written by an internist who took a job in California and called the profession...the 1 million dollar mistake. There are only a handful of countries that can afford to pay their doctors very well. The US pays their physicians the best in the world. Countries like China, India, Pakistan, any nation in Africa, South America...never see well off incomes. My cousin, who lives in a different country, just finished her medical degree and her dad said they really don't make anything in their country and wanted to send her daughter to New York to work there instead. So don't use American incomes references as the norm around the world either. Why do you think there is a high influx of physicians around the world that want to come to the US besides better standard of living for their professions? I don't think its because they're huge fans of watching baseball and eating apple pie. They want the comfortable lifestyle for their profession.

Again, Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg are examples. Half my friends do not have bachelors degrees. They are self taught in computer programming and make 6 figure incomes. Another friend of mine runs an extremely successful car sales company. Has a house in Florida, Chicago, a new boat, sports cars, etc. Another friend of mine has a bachelors degree and works for Google and has no liability, 6 figure income and was valedictorian of our high school when we graduated. I am MORE than sure he could have been a neurosurgeon at Harvard IF he had the passion for medicine, which he said he never did. Another, valedictorian in our school, started an educational company and its doing very well...also could've been a brilliant doctor since he was a straight A student in sciences and mathematics and has been in gifted programs since he was 8 years old. Medicine was also not his passion.


MY point: Yes I agree that you have to make sacrifices and work extremely hard to do well in ANYTHING in life BUT the theme of your comments is centered as NOT BEING PHYSICIAN = LIFE FAILURE. If you had just said..."hey not being a physician is not the end of the world...however if do you want to succeed in anything you have to make sacrifices whether it being longer days, more projects, tougher clients, more traveling in whatever profession you choose."...then I would be like yes i TOTALLY agree.

I repeatedly point out that it's ok to not be a physician. I kept my comment general about anything worth accomplishing will require hard work and sacrifices, because when you're getting killed as a medical student, it's easy to have the delusion that you can leave medicine and make bank without making sacrifices.

Instead of giving me anecdotes of your friends, maybe quote statistics of American households. How many households earn more than 200k/year?

Salary does not equal net worth. Duh? Just because physicians are likely to manage money poorly and not build a net worth is not a reflection of the profession or not making enough money. That internist in California could easily earn more and spend less in almost any other state in the country.

For someone already in medicine, they can work hard and stay on the conveyer belt to becoming an attending and have more of a financial guarantee than any other profession. Again, give me statistics not your anecdotes. I can start counting the number of engineers and computer programmers that I know that were laid off or had to move their families a million times to stay employed.

I'm not trying to convince the OP to stay in medicine or leave. Just trying to help them see both sides of the argument.

 

[Inception8888]

I am not the type who is obsessed with perfection. I was once that type, but I re-trained my mind to erase this concept of "perfection" and just take the pain with the pleasure, because this creates the contrast in life and I wouldn't have it any other way.

However, I think that there is that type of pain that you just embrace, because you know it's worth it, and there is the other type of pain that makes you not enjoy even the pleasurable parts.
I think there is a lack of understanding when it comes to the concept of pain and discomfort. For example, if we take a professional football team's training : a guy who has an athletic body with broad shoulders, powerful legs, well-formed muscles and strong limbs is going to feel a totally different pain than the guy who is incredibly skinny, has weak musculature and fragile bones.
Of course that both of them are going through discomfort, but it would be ridiculous to say that both of them are experiencing the same level of discomfort. At the end of the day, the athletic guy has significantly higher chances to be satisfied with his career than the skinny guy, and it has nothing to do with the fact that he would handle better hard work, it's just that he is more suitable for that type of job. The skinny guy has a higher risk of quitting, simply because the type of discomfort he experiences is not worth it.

The same type of denial and lack of self-knowledge is happening in Medicine also for many people and then we wonder why are depression and suicide rates so high. All this for what ? Because they don't accept that not everyone is made for Medicine, no matter how much effort is put into it.

I know things in US are harder, because you have crippling debts compared to Europe. Here we have many Medical schools that don't leave students with such high debts.
So obviously I don't want to be a smartass and pretend what I wrote can be applied to everyone, but for those who aren't burdened by the debt, it's worth to consider it.
I heard from US students that "I swear I wouldn't think twice about quitting Med school if I wouldn't have the debt !" - Well, guess what, here many people don't have any debt and they still don't quit, although they would like it. The pride and the fear of social judgment doesn't let them quit, it has nothing to do with money.

My father is a cardiologist and he also teaches in Med school. Often times he told me what a shame it is that the quantity of students increases, but the quality of doctors decreases every year. He's saying that he wouldn't want to work with 50% of the students that are in Med school, because most of the time they are nervous, bitter, superficial, confused and robotic.
He said that if they would be more honest with themselves and if they would dare to actually do what they really want to do, they wouldn't be this way - actually, they would leave Med school and he would finally get rid of them
Only the fact that so many of them are so shallow and susceptible to social conditioning that they are willing to go through all this training for some prestige tells a lot about a person.

Hey good post BUT a lot of medical students are in debt well into the 6 figures and that will only keep going up and up with inflation. Everyone has debt. Usually student loans, credit cards, auto loans, mortgage, property taxes, malpractice insurance, CME, then add in children and a wife to that mix. Today's generation is COMPLETELY different than it used to be especially when your father went to medical school and started practicing. For decades, doctors have said the golden age of medicine, in terms of income, has long passed. We are in the tech age now. Lots of the brilliant minds are now opting to working in consulting firms and tech companies because of very liability compared to physicians and the options for excellent work life balance.

A friend of mine is an ER doc, whose in his 50's and wants to get out along with others in his profession. He says he has been trying to get into consulting or management instead. He said he's made enough money and will keep his medical license active as a fall back but he wants to try his hands at something entrepreneurial. I was like sounds good...you only live once and go for it. However, he said it's easier said than done since he has no management experience and some hospitals make it harder for you to transition out of clinical care because that's where they want you the most.

There are many reasons why physicians suicides are so high. The nature of the job is one thing along with other personal things that may push you over the edge. Burnout is super high in this profession which is not shocking by any means. You're constantly making decisions that could impact your patients lives...forever. Not to sound over dramatic or anything just saying that it is the nature of the position.

A lot of my friends are also physicians everything from ER medicine, cardiology, gastroenterology, nephrology, internal medicine, rheumatology, anesthesiology, pain medicine, gerontology, hematology/oncology, dermatology, etc. You name it. All of them will say the same thing. Over worked and most feel underpaid. They still love the actual profession but feel it's becoming bogged down with politics that they have no control over. Physicians cannot unionize and therefore may have very little bargaining power. It's all left in the hands of the AMA in DC. Til then...it has become the physicians issues.

 

[Inception8888]

I repeatedly point out that it's ok to not be a physician. I kept my comment general about anything worth accomplishing will require hard work and sacrifices, because when you're getting killed as a medical student, it's easy to have the delusion that you can leave medicine and make bank without making sacrifices.

Instead of giving me anecdotes of your friends, maybe quote statistics of American households. How many households earn more than 200k/year?

Salary does not equal net worth. Duh? Just because physicians are likely to manage money poorly and not build a net worth is not a reflection of the profession or not making enough money. That internist in California could easily earn more and spend less in almost any other state in the country.

For someone already in medicine, they can work hard and stay on the conveyer belt to becoming an attending and have more of a financial guarantee than any other profession. Again, give me statistics not your anecdotes. I can start counting the number of engineers and computer programmers that I know that were laid off or had to move their families a million times to stay employed.

I'm not trying to convince the OP to stay in medicine or leave. Just trying to help them see both sides of the argument.

I REALLY hope you understand the difference between GROSS income and NET income. You realize you have to pay a TON of taxes right? You know federal marginalized taxes rates are kind of high for higher income earners. Take a finance course dude if you're unsure about money. Unless, you're a primary care physician with a SUPER busy practice or a moderate successful specialist in a busy private practice would you be earning WELL over 200k NET...NOT GROSS. That article I was referring to had nothing to do about mismanagement about funds. It's the natural cost of income taxes, student loans, lost income from not practicing that can really add up over the years.

You proposed ZERO facts yourself and want facts in return. NO profession even medicine can guarantee security...and not because there is NOT enough work. Can you guess why? Ding ding ding ding...its because the superimposed litigious culture medical professions are employed in are not optimally conducive for security. Meaning every physician is always 1 patient away from being sued even the excellent ones. Doctors also get laid off as well. Hospitalists, anesthesiologists and ER docs get laid off if the administrators do not want their services or for the amount they are asking for because when an organization has to pay your salary you are now a liability on the balance sheet and not an asset. Hospitals, ON PURPOSE, will bid several anesthesiology groups against each other to see whose offers are better in terms of money for services. Best bidder wins. Hospitals are constantly buying out private practices thus limiting physician autonomy and income potential ALSO not to mention the BIGGEST payoff for the provider. Two words...PRACTICE EQUITY which is usually the golden parachute for a practicing physician. That also gets stripped.

The shooting that happened last week in that New York hospital was by a physician who was getting LAID OFF. He was disgruntled with the staff. Bottom line...it can and does happen. There have been talks about telemedicine services from psychiatry and radiology from different countries that possibly effect some physician services here OR PA/NP's wanting more autonomy in different states to provide primary care medicine. One of my friends is a physician recruiter and she already said the most unhappy physicians, for her, have been the anesthesiologists because the encroachment of CRNA's and their constant ANA studies that negates the AMA recommendations of not allowing independent practice of CRNA's.

I personally think that physicians should never have to worry about stuff like that because what is being brought to society by the doctor. Physicians bring health, well being and guidance HOWEVER remember that bureaucrats, politicians and lawyers run healthcare and ironically not physicians. People with zero medical training are making legal and policy decisions in which they look at the bottom line and not what's right for the patients and physicians. They can be like well...these people can replace these professionals and we'll save this much money OR UC Berkeley and MIT are developing this machine to do that which means we can phase these people out. Anything is possible these days.

I'm saying in some ways you are correct about potential to do well in medicine, but people who have excellent academic abilities can also do well in many other areas too. So with the OP...I see her point of medicine not being right for her personality. I am sure we wish her all the best.

 

[ACSurgeon]

I REALLY hope you understand the difference between GROSS income and NET income. You realize you have to pay a TON of taxes right? You know federal marginalized taxes rates are kind of high for higher income earners. Take a finance course dude if you're unsure about money. Unless, you're a primary care physician with a SUPER busy practice or a moderate successful specialist in a busy private practice would you be earning WELL over 200k NET...NOT GROSS. That article I was referring to had nothing to do about mismanagement about funds. It's the natural cost of income taxes, student loans, lost income from not practicing that can really add up over the years.

You proposed ZERO facts yourself and want facts in return. NO profession even medicine can guarantee security...and not because there is NOT enough work. Can you guess why? Ding ding ding ding...its because the superimposed litigious culture medical professions are employed in are not optimally conducive for security. Meaning every physician is always 1 patient away from being sued even the excellent ones. Doctors also get laid off as well. Hospitalists, anesthesiologists and ER docs get laid off if the administrators do not want their services or for the amount they are asking for because when an organization has to pay your salary you are now a liability on the balance sheet and not an asset. Hospitals, ON PURPOSE, will bid several anesthesiology groups against each other to see whose offers are better in terms of money for services. Best bidder wins. Hospitals are constantly buying out private practices thus limiting physician autonomy and income potential ALSO not to mention the BIGGEST payoff for the provider. Two words...PRACTICE EQUITY which is usually the golden parachute for a practicing physician. That also gets stripped.

The shooting that happened last week in that New York hospital was by a physician who was getting LAID OFF. He was disgruntled with the staff. Bottom line...it can and does happen. There have been talks about telemedicine services from psychiatry and radiology from different countries that possibly effect some physician services here OR PA/NP's wanting more autonomy in different states to provide primary care medicine. One of my friends is a physician recruiter and she already said the most unhappy physicians, for her, have been the anesthesiologists because the encroachment of CRNA's and their constant ANA studies that negates the AMA recommendations of not allowing independent practice of CRNA's.

I personally think that physicians should never have to worry about stuff like that because what is being brought to society by the doctor. Physicians bring health, well being and guidance HOWEVER remember that bureaucrats, politicians and lawyers run healthcare and ironically not physicians. People with zero medical training are making legal and policy decisions in which they look at the bottom line and not what's right for the patients and physicians. They can be like well...these people can replace these professionals and we'll save this much money OR UC Berkeley and MIT are developing this machine to do that which means we can phase these people out. Anything is possible these days.

I'm saying in some ways you are correct about potential to do well in medicine, but people who have excellent academic abilities can also do well in many other areas too. So with the OP...I see her point of medicine not being right for her personality. I am sure we wish her all the best.

So we agree. Nothing is perfect. Never claimed it was. I said you get more of a guarantee (or security) than other professions. Trust me, I understand the opportunity cost and it sucks, but then again, life isn't rainbow and sunshines everywhere else. I'm very reluctant to encourage premeds to go to med school (unless they're adimant), but I'm equally as reluctant to encourage med students to drop out. Too easy for Med students to be burned out and thing the grass is greener elsewhere. Which, it might be for some but definitely not something to take lightly.

 

[Inception8888]

So we agree. Nothing is perfect. Never claimed it was. I said you get more of a guarantee (or security) than other professions. Trust me, I understand the opportunity cost and it sucks, but then again, life isn't rainbow and sunshines everywhere else. I'm very reluctant to encourage premeds to go to med school (unless they're adimant), but I'm equally as reluctant to encourage med students to drop out. Too easy for Med students to be burned out and thing the grass is greener elsewhere. Which, it might be for some but definitely not something to take lightly.

I do agree with exploring as many options possible BEFORE and during medical school if someone decided to do a mass exodus from medical school. Some stay and finish and use it as a backup in case their original plans do not go into fruition however MOST people do go because they're passionate about it. Series of surveys are sent out about what motivates physicians to stay and GREAT majority say its the patient satisfaction. The pay helps to live their lives but they do not feel like it defines them, in which, every physician has always said..."you want real money go into business or investing."

Medicine is a great career. You're never going to starve not saying you're ever going to live the Jay-Z/Beyonce life either but as long as a doctor is able to eat, live in a house, pay his/her bills and take care of their family its all good. I find it greatly insulting when reality stars make millions per year with no discernible skills and the educated class are struggling in a lot of different ways.

As a side note: You remember Dr. Oz getting grilled by Colombia University and wanting his resignation for his promotion of alternative based medicine with no real empirical data supporting his statement on acai berry juice being a potent anti-oxidant that can really prevent long term illnesses and etc? He had to go in front of Congress, for goodness sakes, to defend his beliefs. His statement was "I would never recommend anything to the public that I would not try on myself or my family first." He has even commented on some of the rigidity of medical literature and wanted to explore therapies besides surgery and pharmaceutical agents. The OP had a good point about that. Most of the general public does not even know what an anti-oxidant is or does unless they pull out the old chemistry book and go through oxidation-reduction reactions... unbalanced electrons that cause molecular instability and thus cellular instability. Anti-oxidants would be able to supply electrons to unstable molecules inhibiting the cascades of molecular instability in cells by reducing them hence preventing oxidation SO the literature in theory could makes sense but he gets crucified by the Ivy League traditionalists. He could have lost his post at Colombia and his credibility as a surgeon. Anything could happen in any job.

A friend of mine who has a masters in chemistry had to take an immunology class who was taught by an MD/PhD. On the first day of class...he asks "how many of you are planning on applying to medical school?" According to my friend, 90% of the classes hands went up. He said..."If there is absolutely ANYTHING else you rather do...just ONE thing you rather do than medicine...explore that first before committing."

Personally, medicine is awesome. It fascinates the hell out of me and I love constantly being challenged. It changes and it annoys people... but for me it's like a life long puzzle. I went over complement (classical, alternative, MBL pathways) and coagulation cascades (intrinsic, extrinsic, and common pathways) again to review and I was like "wow the human body is awesome!" Just my take.

 

[thepoopologist]

If you don't want to be a doctor, then quit

If you do want to be a doctor, then find a way to get through, whether it be a LOA for a year or decelerated program etc.

I'm all up for uncertainty and instability, but not when it comes to having a job I like and a consistent stream of money flowing in, that's why I powered through. Professionally I am "good enough" to be able to see positive changes in many of the patients I treat. Materially if my salary continues or increases I will want for nothing forever. Others in my class left after second year and became photographers and MBAs and remain happy. My personal opinion is to find a gig that you like and you're good at and pays decently well and you can then worry about other things, it doesn't need to be medicine but it should support the life you want now and in the future.

 

[ShyGuy0082]

I'm not a medical professional, I work in IT for many years. Yes we do make good money, not the same income as doctors but 6 figures is pretty much the norm for a developer with at least 3-5 years of experience. The only thing I can say, judging as layman when it comes to medicine is that I never hear mass layoffs in medicine. But it happens in almost every other field. So from my perspective medical profession has a lot better job security. That disgruntled doctor involved in the shooting is not the norm in medicine.

 

[Stagg737]

you have no clue what you are talking about.
im not the most familiar with xbox, but the world of esports is $$$ and will only continue to grow rapidly.

This is pretty exaggerated. Outside of a few guys that have pulled in 7 figures in a year (not consistently btw), the top guys in the gaming industry are pulling in less than a half mil a year, which any doctor can make if they're willing to put in the hours or are smart about their business model. Drop down to about the 20th highest earner in terms of yearly salary for gamers and they're making around 200k/year, which is less than the average for a peds physician, aka the lowest paying specialty out there. So comparing an industry where you literally have to be one of the 50 best in the world to pull in 200k to medicine where probably 75% of docs make that much is pointless.

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

DO IT OP! It only gets much more ****tier after first year!

 

[docbsb2015]

DO IT OP! It only gets much more ****tier after first year!

What year are you?

 

[DocWinter]

OP, i don't think you see what you have. Your sight is blinded by your parents assistance as you go through this angst of independence and being your own person.

I believe you are the stereotype of a young person who got into this too early and young for his own good. I'd strongly consider a LOA.

 

[Inception8888]

I'm not a medical professional, I work in IT for many years. Yes we do make good money, not the same income as doctors but 6 figures is pretty much the norm for a developer with at least 3-5 years of experience. The only thing I can say, judging as layman when it comes to medicine is that I never hear mass layoffs in medicine. But it happens in almost every other field. So from my perspective medical profession has a lot better job security. That disgruntled doctor involved in the shooting is not the norm in medicine.

No it is not the norm in medicine BUT the point is that it can and does happen. DOJ just arrested over 400+ people in a healthcare fraud case according to Jess Sessions' public announcement. Of the 400+ arrested. around 52 were physicians. Another report, according to VICE news was that the average doctor spends $300 an hour keeping the lights on in their practice. On average, they may charge up to a $100 per patient but barely receive a 3rd of that in reimbursments. We're not just talking about unemployment we're also talking about quality of life for a physician who has to double or triple their workload only to come home exhausted dealing with MORE paperwork for which they're not compensated for. Technically, doctors NEVER clock out when you think about it. Life becomes and work and work becomes life. At least, programmers have other perks like work life balance and the ability to work from home. Doctors rarely have that. Doctors also do not have paid time off. If they do NOT see patients they are not compensated for that time.

I have read articles on brand new doctors being underpaid and not being paid on time from some private practices they worked for. So do not just measure unemployment as the ONLY measuring stick for economic viability.... you have to think of quality of life as they work.

 

[Inception8888]

This is pretty exaggerated. Outside of a few guys that have pulled in 7 figures in a year (not consistently btw), the top guys in the gaming industry are pulling in less than a half mil a year, which any doctor can make if they're willing to put in the hours or are smart about their business model. Drop down to about the 20th highest earner in terms of yearly salary for gamers and they're making around 200k/year, which is less than the average for a peds physician, aka the lowest paying specialty out there. So comparing an industry where you literally have to be one of the 50 best in the world to pull in 200k to medicine where probably 75% of docs make that much is pointless.

BUT then again it's also about passion and although gamers may not have as much security as the doctor...he/she does not have the lifelong liabilities either. Physicians are slaves to the hand that feeds them...the insurance companies. Reimbursements are an annual crap shoot.

 

[WingedOx]

Med school isn't what it's like to be a physician. Med school isn't even real life.

 

[Stagg737]

BUT then again it's also about passion and although gamers may not have as much security as the doctor...he/she does not have the lifelong liabilities either. Physicians are slaves to the hand that feeds them...the insurance companies. Reimbursements are an annual crap shoot.

Depending on the field you enter there are ways around this. DPC is the best example. Plenty of FMs out there using that model pulling in 300k+ every year and working less hours than their employed counterparts. Plus, doctors can quit any time they want (realistically after paying back debt) and most have the option to comfortably retire far earlier than most other individuals. There's trade-offs either way, it's just a matter of picking what you want to sacrifice and how long you want to make those sacrifices for.