2 Fs in organic chemistry !!

[girlscientist]

Hi everyone,
I took organic chem 2 a few semesters back and got an F( I was working full time). I took it again last semester with a full load and got what amounts to another F(work and a family emergency contributed along with a horrible professor). How will med schools look at this? Will I ever get in anywhere? I have a 3.5 ( 3.4 sci)lots of research experience and good recommendations.I'll also be taking the MCAT this august and I'm aiming for over a 30. Any advice and suggestions will be appreciated. Is there any hope at all? Thanks

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[Mossjoh]

Hmm, this is a concerning. A lot of what med schools look for are people who can balance their school load with other things happening in their life. The family problems are clearly a reason why one's work may suffer,yet work seems not to be so valid. By the way, what did you get in first semester orgo? That may make a difference. Two F's certainly don't look good, however I think if your other grades are better, it can only be a speed bump, but don't let it turn into a mountain.
Your GPA is pretty average for med school applicants. I would definetely suggest getting a high score on the MCAT, especially the Biological Sciences section. This could prove you know the Orgo.

Anyway, I wish you luck.

Mossjoh

 

[jf]

What school did you go to that you got those grades? It is really important that you take that class again and really do well (an A). As a result, you may prove that you can handle that level of difficulty. As for your personal reasons for not doing well, although I'm sure you had to make it through some tough times, dont use them as a crutch. All of us have had to work, and have gone through tough times, but if you can succeed than that shows the med schools your character. DONT I repeat DONT use your personal issues as a reason for your orgo grades!

Med school is very tough and demanding and you need to be able to remain focussed in order to succeed.

Have you taken the MCAT's yet? It will be extra important for you to do well, so study hard. I recommend taking them in april rather than august, it will give you a leg up.

Good luck!

 

[docuw]

I would think that med schools will not like that at all. The fact that you actually RETOOK the class and still got an F is not good. My school puts grades side by side and doesnt erase them when you retake I guess, so people who have had to retake havent been happy even if they got a good grade the 2nd time.

My advice would be to step it up. You MUST get an A in that class IMHO. I dont know the circumstances surrounding your personal issues, but noone should really have the same issues or ones as bad the 2nd time they took a class. And everyone works... many of us near 40 hrs/wk (after school till 10pm doing research or what have you).

 

[BigBill]

My situation is a little similar in that I took it with a full load and two labs with a full time job. This made my schedule at about 23 hrs of school and 40 hrs of work. I got a D+ then retook it and got a B under similar circumstances. What I did was take two semesters of biochem to get over that problem and it seems to have worked because I just was accepted to a graduate post-bacc. What I think you should do is Retake with it being the only thing in your schedule at night or something then maybe take advanced orgo from a graduate school. That should erase the problem. Of course you should get A's in both. Hope this helps.

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[lilycat]

Find out if you can retake again -- throw yourself on the mercy of the prof, the Chair of the Chem Dept., the Registrar, whoever. Make them feel sorry for you if you have to. Get an advisor on your side if you can. You must retake that class, and you must do well (A) -- make it your priority. If your current undergrad won't let you retake, take it over the summer at another school (are you at a private university now? Maybe you can take orgo during summer session at your state school?) Retaking this class and doing WELL is essential.

Ideally though, you want to retake it at your current school. What I wanted to add is that, if it is not their policy to allow more than one retake, you must be very persistent, and not give up until you have exhausted all your possibilities. This was one of the best things I learned in undergrad -- if you really want something bad enough, you can usually find a way to make it happen. You have to take initiative, be strong and be persistent.

[This message has been edited by lilycat (edited March 22, 2001).]

 

[dfleis]

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[studenttrauma]

I attend USC (South Carolina) @ the branch in Spartanburg. I finished Organic Chemistry last year and received A's in both semesters. The final exam in the second semester is cum. for the entire year. It was my understanding that our professor was to be the hardest in the state. Professors at other colleges had confirmed this rumor to me. This year I decided to take an advanced 600 Level organic chemistry class at a private college near by and to my surprise it seemed easier than the actual class was at my local university. I believe that Organic Chemistry is what you make it. I will be honest and say that I did not receive A's because I am smart, but rather because I spent at least 2 hrs every night on it and at least 5 hrs on sat and sun. I also studied at least 6 hrs every week over winter break and spring break. To prepare for Organic I watched videos over the summer before. You really have to make the class your life. I did take microbiology and biochemistry, and Physiology at the same time and received A's in those classes also. The Physiology and Micro went together, and the Biochem and Organic helped each other out. YOU CANNOT WORK FULL TIME OR HAVE OTHER THINGS GOING ON IN YOUR LIFE DURING ORGANIC.

Unfortunately, many student I had classes with have made A's in everything and then failed Organic MULTIPLE TIMES. This is not uncommon. Organic teaches you a different way of thinking. Medical Schools want Doctors to be able to think Qualitatively, Quantitatively, and Analytically. This may be the end of the road for you my friend...I'm not sure what they will do, even with A's on the third try. By that time thy figure that you have just memorized everything and have not actually built the thought processes that they desire for you to have. But good luck!

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"You will remember some of what you hear, more of what you read, much of what you see, and almost all of what you experience and unser stand fully" Unknown

 

[docuw]

dfleis...

Who said applying to Med School was fair?!?!? There are plenty of people that might make good doctors who never get in. It surely isnt fair.

As far as your second comment: Lots of people work full time and pay for school etc. and still get As. Thats the point - not that you did bad b/c others dont have to work hard to pay for school b/c their parents pay, but rather b/c you did bad in comparison to all those others who were working full time and also got As.

-DocUW

 

[rxfudd]

Not only that, I would imagine that med schools would raise an eyebrow at an applicant who did not work (or volunteer) during college. As great as the 4.0 might seem, people who do not work at least part time are at a distinct disadvantage. So I would say that the comparison between people who paid for their own school and those who did not (and those who took out loans) is still appropriate.

 

[dfleis]

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[girlscientist]

I want to thank everyone who responded. I am in no way using my personal problems or work schedule to justify failing but they did contribute. I was doing very well in the class but failed the final which was 50% of my grade, ending up with a D which is not passing at my school, hence requiring me to retake the class. I understand the concepts very well and my MCAT scores will reflect that.There's got to be more to getting in to medical school that a set of grades on a paper. I am a published author,I've done lots of volunteer work in hospitals. I've presented my research at many national conferences. I've been exposed to health care for numerous years now and there's just no other job for me. I sincerely believe that. It's unfortune that my dream could be dependent on one grade.

 

[BigBill]

Sounds like this is the only hurdle and there may be a possible cure. First, DO NOT RETAKE ORGO AT YOUR SCHOOL. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting the same results. You and your school are not hitting it off and the aura of failure is lingering. Change your scenery and atmosphere on the subject. Take it a university with a reputable program and GET an A. Make sure it is the only thing you have. Then there are some options. You can enter a masters program in organic chemistry and do well. If you pull that off then what can a medical school say about organic. You could enter a masters in general chem and take advanced organic chemistry and due well. The same results, what can they say. Also you can retake and due a graduate post bacc, (Im at MCV) due well and it would leave no doubt as to your potential. Last you could get 11 or above on mcat and that would do it. I guess what you need to do is turn it in to your strength. This would erase your problem and satisfy their questions. How could they deny you admittance based on organic when you have a masters in it. Hope this helps.

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[docuw]

I think that it is POSSIBLE to get into medical school with a D in Orgo, but very UNLIKELY. So many of us are doing research, getting published, experience in healthcare... it is almost the norm these days. Orgo is one of the fundamental courses that you must do well in though. My advice would be to take the damn class one more time. Take it this summer quarter. Then really step it up. A good MCAT on the Bio Sciences scores will obviously look good with a low Orgo grade, but the adcoms may also see this as just being that you had lots of Bio questions and very few Orgo questions...

Take it again, get an A, get into medschool.

-DocUW

 

[Refuter]

Where do you go to school. Orgo is different in most schools.

 

[docuw]

Who are you talking to? Orgo (short for Organic Chemistry) is pretty much the same across the board. Not much you can change about cis/trans conformations.]

-DocUW

 

[girlscientist]

I attend Long Island University.

 

[moo]

If you failed organic, then you are going to have to take it again, otherwise you will have ZERO chance of making it, since orgo is a "prerequisite" course.

Of course, I hated orgo myself. B-/B over two semesters... Actually I was more pissed at the instructor for giving a killer final both semesters than anything... I had an A going into both finals but got screwed on both of them.

 

[lilycat]

Personally, I disagree with BigBill's advice a little -- I think you have to retake orgo at your school, if they will let you -- otherwise, it may look like you lucked into an easier program elsewhere and couldn't hack it at your school.

 

[UGBoI]

>I finished Organic Chemistry last year and received A's in both semesters. The final exam in the second semester is cum. for the entire year. It was my understanding that our professor was to be the hardest in the state. Professors at other colleges had confirmed this rumor to me. This year I decided to take an advanced 600 Level organic chemistry class at a private college near by and to my surprise it seemed easier than the actual class was at my local university. .......... I did take microbiology and biochemistry, and Physiology at the same time and received A's in those classes also.

Oh please ....... sounds like a little bragging on your part .... wouldn't you say?


>This may be the end of the road for you my friend...I'm not sure what they will do, even with A's on the third try.

That's not a very nice thing to say !!!!! Girlscientist, from your other posts .... it seems like you're well rounded! Just study hard and do well on your MCAT. Also, you might want to look into applying north of the border at a school like MAC where there are no prereqs ... and the MCAT is not required.

Good Luck!



[This message has been edited by UGBoI (edited March 22, 2001).]

 

[crisis_response_director]

girlscientist-

Before retaking orgo you might consider taking a lower level organic chemistry course. At our university we had a course that covered two semesters of orgo in one semester. It was a course for marine biology majors. It was a LITTLE lower level than the pre-med requirement. But, not too much lower considering the amount of mechanisms we had to learn. This really helped me when I took orgo part one and two. See if your college or another college offers a course similar to this before retaking the orgo requirement again. It may just help you.

good luck

 

[BlueFalcon]

Girlscientist,

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but...

Excuses are like, well you know what they're like. Anyhow, if I were in your shoes staring at back to back F's in Organic Chemistry, I would quit wasting my time and hang it up. I could shoot you sunshine and rainbows; but if you want the truth, there it is.

 

[gower]

Are you at the Brooklyn campus or C W Post?
Have you been taking evening classes only?
Did you take another science course with organic?

If you are the Brooklyn campus, did you ever discuss your program and seek advice from Dr. Andreas Zavitsas, the premed adviusor
there? He may not be available in the evening; in any case, now you should contact him. Either call his office to see if you can make an appointment or send him an email outlining your problem. 718 488 1209
FAX: 718 488 1465 [email protected]

At C W Post: Dr. Joan Shields 516 299 2492
FAX: 516 299 3022 [email protected]

Almost all premeds will tell you that organic is a tough course, that chemistry departments take no prisoners. When you work full time and take classes it is foolish to take two lab sciences together, if that is what you did. There was no hurry unless you are pushing 40. You must have heard the expression: better late than never.

But chiding you now doesn't help. You will have to repeat: you must earn C or better.
D will not do, and you must have one year of organic. If you choose not to make a third attempt at LIU, whatever you do, DO NOT TAKE IT AT A COMMUNITY COLLEGE. If you are taking evening courses only, and you are in the city, you might consider Brooklyn College, Queens College, or Hunter College. The tuition is much lower than LIU anyway.
NYU and Columbia cost an arm and a leg. Those five and CCNY are the chief suppliers of premeds to medical school in NYC. All five have postbac programs! St. Johns is another expensive possibility.

If and when you apply to medical school, don't waste precious space in the Personal Statement with an explanation of the bad grades. You might allude to it in a positive, general way with a single sentence letting them know how many hours a week you worked, and indicating any personal responsibilties you had. And then leave it alone! They will decide anyway on how much weight to give it in the context of everything else on your application, especially including MCAT scores.

ACCENTUATE THE POSITIVE, ELIMINATE THE NEGATIVE, to steal a few words from a popular song about 40 or so years ago.

If you get a medical school interview, the same advice holds. Do not waste the precious time with explanations and dwelling on the negatives. At most, enter a guilty plea and throw yourself on the mercy of the court. What is, is. What was, was. Let's move forward. Excelsior, onward and upward.

Successful people--the adcoms and interviewers--do not like crybabies. They admire people who triumph over adversity.

You have your work cut out for you now.

May the road rise to meet you; may the wind be always at your back; may the sun shine warm upon your face.

 

[BigBill]

Im the brilliant one who took organic (+lab),physics (+lab) and two other courses with a f/t job. I will agree, never do this and it was foolish. Never think I wasnt frazelled at the end of that semester, I was . As for retaking at your school my advice comes from experience. I took a class and didnt do well and took it with the same professor and the same result. Yet I do have to disagree with the naysayers. Retake it then get into a masters and make it your strength. Since you are close to New York then try Columbia, cornell, New york university. Not bad reputations. Nothing is over until you decide it is, dont quit.

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[mtg]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by gower:
whatever you do, DO NOT TAKE IT AT A COMMUNITY COLLEGE. If you are taking
•

Out of curiosity - why should you not take Orgo at a community college? The reason I ask is because the senior college I am planning on transferring to requires 1 semester of Organic as a prerequisite for their BA/Biology program. Do you see any way around it?

Thanks,
mtg