2009 ADA Practice Income Survey

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NonTradHopeful

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This is a question that is always asked on SDN, "What is the average salary for <insert specialty here>". The most accurate source (in my opinion) for salary info is the ADA Practice Income Survey. Places like salary.com use stats from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, which only has salary info on people who are EMPLOYED (this is only about 10-15% of dentists), therefore it is inaccurate. The ADA's survey gives a more accurate depiction of what dentists and their respective specialties could be expected to make 5+ years out of dental school.

DISCLAIMER: Please do not respond with the typical "people shouldn't do dentistry for the money" crap. I'm not posting this info in order to start a debate about what the "proper" reasons are to get into dentistry. These are merely statistics that answer a question that MANY predents ultimately have.

Practice Net Income:

General Practice Dentists: $233,200
Periodontists: $279,540
Orthodontists: $290,200
Pediatric Dentists: $346,070
Endodontists: $366,340
OMFS: $516,260


Source: https://www.ada.org/sections/professionalResources/pdfs/09_sdpi.pdf
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A pediatric dentist makes more than an orthodontist? Are you sure that's true...?
 
How about prosthodontist? Anyone has any idea how much they make? :idea:
 
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AtlantaBraves said:
A pediatric dentist makes more than an orthodontist? Are you sure that's true...?
Click to expand...

Yes...instead of asking, click on the link I posted, and read it for yourself. These are the types of misconceptions I think need to be cleared up. Trends in dentistry are constantly changing. Being an Orthodontist is no longer a ticket to the flashy life. Orthodontists made TONS of money in the 90's, but now their demand may be going down or their field might be getting saturated...so the trend has changed. Now, Endos make a lot of money, but in ten or 15 years, they might not.

This is how salary trends often work in dentistry...there is usually an "in" specialty that everybody wants. Eventually that changes.

The lesson: choose the specialty that you ENJOY (instead of the one that is "in"), and eventually you will earn a decent living doing what you have a passion for.
 
AtlantaBraves said:
A pediatric dentist makes more than an orthodontist? Are you sure that's true...?
Click to expand...

I actually heard about this, something about new medicaid program for kids covering more comprehensive preventive dental care increased their annual income. Something about combining CHIP with Medicaid, can a current dentist verify this??
 
Greater variance in income is seen within specialties than between specialties. Income depends more on practice location, philosophy, and infrastructure rather than the type of specialty.
 
NonTradHopeful said:
Yes...instead of asking, click on the link I posted, and read it for yourself. These are the types of misconceptions I think need to be cleared up. Trends in dentistry are constantly changing. Being an Orthodontist is no longer a ticket to the flashy life. Orthodontists made TONS of money in the 90's, but now their demand may be going down or their field might be getting saturated...so the trend has changed. Now, Endos make a lot of money, but in ten or 15 years, they might not.

This is how salary trends often work in dentistry...there is usually an "in" specialty that everybody wants. Eventually that changes.

The lesson: choose the specialty that you ENJOY (instead of the one that is "in"), and eventually you will earn a decent living doing what you have a passion for.
Click to expand...

Sorry about that. I did not see the link at first. For the future though, you might wanna try to not sound so arrogant...
 
i thought dentists worked under the barter system? like i do your teef and you give me some bacon so i can bring it home for the wife
 
To UCLAzy:

You serious? Dentist actually take shells and stones for their work and exchange them for goods. We are well beyond the barter system.
 
Is it just me or do those salaries look WAY too high?
 
Ewt812 said:
To UCLAzy:

You serious? Dentist actually take shells and stones for their work and exchange them for goods. We are well beyond the barter system.
Click to expand...

nah man gotta get paid. ive seen a dentist work out a payment that included some odd jobs like snow removal or something like that.
 
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Erhatstil said:
nah man gotta get paid. ive seen a dentist work out a payment that included some odd jobs like snow removal or something like that.
Click to expand...

My dad used to do crap like this all the time. I think he got the roof on our original house built with a few crowns. I'll be all over bartering if I can make it work when I'm out.
 
JBieber said:
Is it just me or do those salaries look WAY too high?
Click to expand...


Depends on where you practice really, I live in a rural area, a town of about 15-18k to be exact and there are 4 dentists here.. I know a few of them take home 4-500k a year as General practice... They all informed me that they could work and make as much as they would like, but only working 4 days a week is something they all have in common.
 
JBieber said:
Is it just me or do those salaries look WAY too high?
Click to expand...

Well not only does it depend on location. But i am pretty sure that these are dentists that own all or part of a private practice.

You also have to take into consideration of how the data was collected. It was a voluntary survey given to dentists. I think it is safe to say that majority of dentists did not fill it out. They could also inflate their numbers if they wanted... nobody is keeping tabs on them. I would also hypothesize that the more successful dentists are more apt to fill out the survey. They want the self satisfaction of writing big numbers, because they know they are doing well for themselves.

Lastly, the 2010 ADEA handbook quotes that GP's make an average of 204K. I think that data is back from 2004/2005 (don't have book in front of me). I am not sure how the average GP income jumped 30K a year in 4 years, especially considering the recession.

Either way the information is the best we have. Thanks for compiling it OP!
 
armorshell said:
My dad used to do crap like this all the time. I think he got the roof on our original house built with a few crowns. I'll be all over bartering if I can make it work when I'm out.
Click to expand...

:thumbup: my Dad is all about the barter system as well. Labor for labor trade is almost always a win win situation.
 
a few crowns and bridges got us a nice barn in the backyard
 
Are those net incomes reported by the ADA before or after state and federal tax,and everything that comes out of your paycheck
 
haha i love the article, remember guys you can outsource your taxes, IT solutions, cars, natural resources, but there will 2 professions that are ALWAYS safe and can never be outsourced: Dentists and Dog Walkers! lol
 
drpapaya said:
Compare those numbers to our counterparts in the MGMA survey, which also includes dentists and omfs:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=817247

Edit: The numbers reported by MGMA are after malpractice insurance.
Click to expand...

Those numbers seem crazy high, anyone know if there is merit to them?

But I mean comparing numbers in dent and med isn't really saying a whole lot because they go through residency and generally work more hours/have more call.

I can't remember what thread I saw it in (pretty sure it was copied from another thread) but someone did some workup of the hourly pay for dentistry/dental specialties vs med specialties and OMFS topped it followed by endo, and dermatology was fairly far down the list.
 
Toothguy91 said:
Are those net incomes reported by the ADA before or after state and federal tax,and everything that comes out of your paycheck
Click to expand...

Im not 100% sure, but I think these figures are BEFORE taxes and overhead was subtracted (basically these figures = Gross income)
 
OneThree said:
Those numbers seem crazy high, anyone know if there is merit to them?

But I mean comparing numbers in dent and med isn't really saying a whole lot because they go through residency and generally work more hours/have more call.

I can't remember what thread I saw it in (pretty sure it was copied from another thread) but someone did some workup of the hourly pay for dentistry/dental specialties vs med specialties and OMFS topped it followed by endo, and dermatology was fairly far down the list.
Click to expand...

I recall that post as well-- but they used numbers by the AMA, of which only 30% of all US physicians are members.
 
cbizzle7994 said:
what the irs don't know don't hurt 'em
Click to expand...

Amen. I plan on using the barter system. Small things like 1-2 fillings for a transmission flush or brake change. Anyone actually know of someone who got audited for this?
 
NonTradHopeful said:
This is a question that is always asked on SDN, "What is the average salary for <insert specialty here>". The most accurate source (in my opinion) for salary info is the ADA Practice Income Survey. Places like salary.com use stats from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, which only has salary info on people who are EMPLOYED (this is only about 10-15% of dentists), therefore it is inaccurate. The ADA's survey gives a more accurate depiction of what dentists and their respective specialties could be expected to make 5+ years out of dental school.

DISCLAIMER: Please do not respond with the typical "people shouldn't do dentistry for the money" crap. I'm not posting this info in order to start a debate about what the "proper" reasons are to get into dentistry. These are merely statistics that answer a question that MANY predents ultimately have.


Practice Net Income:

General Practice Dentists: $233,200
Periodontists: $279,540
Orthodontists: $290,200
Pediatric Dentists: $346,070
Endodontists: $366,340
OMFS: $516,260


Source: https://www.ada.org/sections/professionalResources/pdfs/09_sdpi.pdfhttps://www.ada.org/sections/professionalResources/pdfs/09_sdpi.pdf
Click to expand...



These staistics look like the gross income. :thumbup:
 
UltimateHombre said:
Well not only does it depend on location. But i am pretty sure that these are dentists that own all or part of a private practice.

You also have to take into consideration of how the data was collected. It was a voluntary survey given to dentists. I think it is safe to say that majority of dentists did not fill it out. They could also inflate their numbers if they wanted... nobody is keeping tabs on them. I would also hypothesize that the more successful dentists are more apt to fill out the survey. They want the self satisfaction of writing big numbers, because they know they are doing well for themselves.

Lastly, the 2010 ADEA handbook quotes that GP's make an average of 204K. I think that data is back from 2004/2005 (don't have book in front of me). I am not sure how the average GP income jumped 30K a year in 4 years, especially considering the recession.

Either way the information is the best we have. Thanks for compiling it OP!
Click to expand...

In my opinion, the busy dentists who are making the big $ won't take the time to fill out these surveys. Don't forget that location makes a huge difference. You have the potential to make more money and the cost of living is lower in small towns.
 
Last edited:
Its net, not gross.

The key to understanding these studies is realizing that there are definitely confounding factors, and that the distribution is NOT normal.

What is a dentist's average net income?

The average net income for an independent private practitioner who owned all or part of his or her practice in 2008 was $207,210 for a general practitioner and $342,270 for a specialist.
Source: 2009 Survey of Dental Practice &#8211; Income from the Private Practice of Dentistry. Item code: SDPI-2009/SDPI-2009D.

What are a dentist's average annual gross billings?

The average gross billings per owner dentist in 2008 was $709,670 for a general practitioner and $1,005,030 for a specialist.
Source: 2009 Survey of Dental Practice &#8211; Income from the Private Practice of Dentistry. Item code: SDPI-2009/SDPI-2009D.
 
Ok, I don't know if people don't read all the posts or what, but, as has been said previous times by other posters, the income is net income. But this net income refers to the net income of the business after paying for things like staff, supplies, etc. This is the net income of the dental practice that the dentist recieves.

Then, for tax purposes, when filling out taxes we call this amout gross income (in relation to taxes). Gross income for the dentist may be the amount that he gets from his practice and any other income from investments, other businesses etc. This total income to the dentist is then called gross income when filling out taxes. The gross income less the taxes paid is then the "take home income" of the dentist. This is also called net income (once again in relation to taxes).

There are two gross incomes and two net incomes. One set for the dental business, one set for the dentist/business owner.

Obviously the amount that many people are discussing is not net income in relation to taxes (aka the take home pay). Dentists have other investments and other businesses that are not included in this salary survey. The net income of this survery is the net income of the practice (aka the gross income of the dentist before taxes are paid).

To make is short: the net income is the salary of the dentist. Salarys are always listed pre-tax (for the reason that people may receive the same salary, but pay different taxes based on individual's investments, etc.)

Ok, no more crazy talk about this "net income" being take-home pay after taxes.
 
Anyone know the average length of time these types of dentists are able to work? When they start to retire?

General Practice Dentists:
Periodontists:
Orthodontists:
Pediatric Dentists:
Endodontists:
OMFS:
 
itsallabout18 said:
You have a lot of faith in that they would be able to figure this out. You just don't bill.
Click to expand...

:thumbdown:

This:

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+

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=


no_irs_stickers-p217040019873223487envb3_400.jpg
 
NonTradHopeful said:
This is a question that is always asked on SDN, "What is the average salary for <insert specialty here>". The most accurate source (in my opinion) for salary info is the ADA Practice Income Survey. Places like salary.com use stats from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, which only has salary info on people who are EMPLOYED (this is only about 10-15% of dentists), therefore it is inaccurate. The ADA's survey gives a more accurate depiction of what dentists and their respective specialties could be expected to make 5+ years out of dental school.

DISCLAIMER: Please do not respond with the typical "people shouldn't do dentistry for the money" crap. I'm not posting this info in order to start a debate about what the "proper" reasons are to get into dentistry. These are merely statistics that answer a question that MANY predents ultimately have.

Practice Net Income:

General Practice Dentists: $233,200
Periodontists: $279,540
Orthodontists: $290,200
Pediatric Dentists: $346,070
Endodontists: $366,340
OMFS: $516,260


Source: https://www.ada.org/sections/professionalResources/pdfs/09_sdpi.pdf
Click to expand...

This report is highly deceptive! First of all, BLS will actually let you see salary by state, which is by far the most important feature. These salaries are for people who own their entire practice or are part owners in a fully owned practice. Likely you will not own your practice, until 50. Also, when you are first coming out of school you will likely not have the business skills, the dental skills, or the patient base to open up your own practice for a few years. This is 100% true for everyone, but it is true for the vast vast vast majority.
 
theleatherwalle said:
This report is highly deceptive! First of all, BLS will actually let you see salary by state, which is by far the most important feature. These salaries are for people who own their entire practice or are part owners in a fully owned practice. Likely you will not own your practice, until 50. Also, when you are first coming out of school you will likely not have the business skills, the dental skills, or the patient base to open up your own practice for a few years. This is 100% true for everyone, but it is true for the vast vast vast majority.
Click to expand...


Business Skills --> Have some business classes, job experience in college, natural entrepreneural skills and your set.

Dental Skill --> Become and associate or go to AEGD (spelling) and become more proficient for 2- 3 years.

Patient Base --> After 2-3 years of learning proficiency of skills, buy a practice. You have instant patient base. Set up shop in ruralish area. Patient base is quick.

---

The above leads me to belive that in 5 years you can own your own private practice with at least 1000 patient base (or in process of paying it off which in America is you owning it) with average to slightly above average dental skill and the business knowledge to run a private practice rather successfully.

Preparation, planning and persistence. These salaries are not misleading unless you mean that it gives the idea that any dentist is going to bring home more than 200k in gross income. Some dentist suck, some don't. Some make 400k some just make 110k.

I don't think netting 200k is unrealistic. Yet you must be good or above average. Too many dentists are people who could do all the upper division science classes with little social communication skills or business intuition.

So, yes. If you are smart and sociable and relatively smart concerning business procedures and such. Bringing home this salary or more is obtainable.
 
.....

These salaries are skewed. I could argue with you all day, but until you are in dental school you won't get it. To pull home 233K a year you will have to be a damn good dentist or in a good market. If you believe that kinda proficiency is possible after only a few years. Please go look at all these young private practice dentists!

The fact that you think all of those 3 steps are easy. Well it is really comical.
 
theleatherwalle said:
.....

These salaries are skewed. I could argue with you all day, but until you are in dental school you won't get it. To pull home 233K a year you will have to be a damn good dentist or in a good market. If you believe that kinda proficiency is possible after only a few years. Please go look at all these young private practice dentists!

The fact that you think all of those 3 steps are easy. Well it is really comical.
Click to expand...

Im saying to gross 233k (not without taxes and such) is obviously the average as indicated by this survey of salaires. In proficiency of skill I am not saying "mastery" but a "solid grasp" on all facets.

What is comical.
 
the average dentists i know make about 160-180k in private practice

the average dentists who are associates make about 120k. so the 150 reported by bls i think is pretty accurate.

233K for an average dentist in an average place is pretty comical.

"Business Skills --> Have some business classes, job experience in college, natural entrepreneural skills and your set.

Dental Skill --> Become and associate or go to AEGD (spelling) and become more proficient for 2- 3 years.

Patient Base --> After 2-3 years of learning proficiency of skills, buy a practice. You have instant patient base. Set up shop in ruralish area. Patient base is quick."

Business skills are usually learned. It takes awhile before you know how to manage a practice. Dental skills will take longer than two or three years to really perfect. As for a patient base. You will need to do research on the area to find out what works and what doesn't. I think you are making it to simple. I am just saying don't expect those sorta salaries until you are in your 50s. You wont be making that kinda cash in your 20s and 30s.

Anyway this my last response to this pointless thread. If you have any questions PM me.
 
corymartin2012 said:
Business Skills --> Have some business classes, job experience in college, natural entrepreneural skills and your set.

Dental Skill --> Become and associate or go to AEGD (spelling) and become more proficient for 2- 3 years.

Patient Base --> After 2-3 years of learning proficiency of skills, buy a practice. You have instant patient base. Set up shop in ruralish area. Patient base is quick.

---

The above leads me to belive that in 5 years you can own your own private practice with at least 1000 patient base (or in process of paying it off which in America is you owning it) with average to slightly above average dental skill and the business knowledge to run a private practice rather successfully.

Preparation, planning and persistence. These salaries are not misleading unless you mean that it gives the idea that any dentist is going to bring home more than 200k in gross income. Some dentist suck, some don't. Some make 400k some just make 110k.

I don't think netting 200k is unrealistic. Yet you must be good or above average. Too many dentists are people who could do all the upper division science classes with little social communication skills or business intuition.

So, yes. If you are smart and sociable and relatively smart concerning business procedures and such. Bringing home this salary or more is obtainable.
Click to expand...

True they are horrible with pt education, and social skills
 
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