2012-2013 Duke-NUS Graduate Medical School

[bm87dxb]

Hi all - Tried to avoid SDN as much as possible to avoid the tension of the MS game (not been very successful but oh well) so rather late in the posting game but I recently received an acceptance offer for Duke-NUS MD/PhD as well as an Irish Medical School. I absolutely love both schools and both locations which doesn’t make things easy. Right now my decision is hinging on….WAIT FOR IT…. Of course the most extensively discussed bond period.

I love the idea of being a part of academic medicine (hopefully splitting time between research and the clinic) which from the sounds of it is starting to grow in Singapore and is already well established in the United States. Though I totally understand the reasoning behind the bond period, an MD/PhD particularly is a long commitment already and the bond period on top of that kind of (albeit loosely) seals potentially living in Singapore….for a long time if not forever. Going to try to squeeze in a visit now but if for whatever reason, I decide Singapore is not the place for me later on – an American residency+fellowship (if it all works of course) +returning to Singapore to complete my bond period sounds exhausting (apart from potentially having to repeat residencies – still need to do some more research on that topic though) while Dublin would allow me to keep my options open although not an MD/PhD offer. Ugh.

I am going to discuss it with the school but was just wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this particular situation or personal experience comparing Duke-NUS w/ Irish medical schools while making their decision? Any input would probably be helpful. Sounds like most of the folks going there as of right now are folks who are from the region or folks from north America who have strong ties.

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[ih371990]

Hi all - Tried to avoid SDN as much as possible to avoid the tension of the MS game (not been very successful but oh well) so rather late in the posting game but I recently received an acceptance offer for Duke-NUS MD/PhD as well as an Irish Medical School. I absolutely love both schools and both locations which doesn’t make things easy. Right now my decision is hinging on….WAIT FOR IT…. Of course the most extensively discussed bond period.

I love the idea of being a part of academic medicine (hopefully splitting time between research and the clinic) which from the sounds of it is starting to grow in Singapore and is already well established in the United States. Though I totally understand the reasoning behind the bond period, an MD/PhD particularly is a long commitment already and the bond period on top of that kind of (albeit loosely) seals potentially living in Singapore….for a long time if not forever. Going to try to squeeze in a visit now but if for whatever reason, I decide Singapore is not the place for me later on – an American residency+fellowship (if it all works of course) +returning to Singapore to complete my bond period sounds exhausting (apart from potentially having to repeat residencies – still need to do some more research on that topic though) while Dublin would allow me to keep my options open although not an MD/PhD offer. Ugh.

I am going to discuss it with the school but was just wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this particular situation or personal experience comparing Duke-NUS w/ Irish medical schools while making their decision? Any input would probably be helpful. Sounds like most of the folks going there as of right now are folks who are from the region or folks from north America who have strong ties.

I think you are doing all the things that you need to do to figure this out. But here's my opinion, take it with a grain of salt.

I sincerely believe that not many will be able to do their residencies in the US. So, for the most of us, residency will be done in Singapore. Although the residencies are US-style based, they are not ACGME accredited (rather ACGME-I accredited) so there may be extra hoops to jump through if you want to go back to the US and practice. This you'll have to look up licensing regulation, and I believe it's different in each state (but I haven't spent much time researching this). Also, Duke-NUS is not LCME approved, so you will be applying to residencies in the US as a FMG/IMG (but that's probably same as your Irish school).

Like you mentioned, if you do residency in the states and then have to go back to Singapore for the bond, it really sucks and it just sounds like a really really stressful idea. I'm not all too sure that is worth it. For someone who wants to practice in Singapore but want US training, it might be a good idea. But, if you're getting resident pay during the bond period that...I'm not sure that's something you'll want to do. You'll have to check with Duke-NUS on this though.

Also, life happens. What if PhD is taking longer than 4 years? What if you get married/have a kid? What if suddenly family needs you around? How about the quality of life/lifestyle in each area? Will you enjoy staying in Singapore? I mean, just some other questions to think about. Perhaps, these are not the biggest factors at the moment, but I think it's worth giving some thought. Maybe giving these questions some thought will help you decide.

Btw, I love the idea of academic medicine too

 

[medstudentsg]

I'm a graduating student from Duke-NUS and chanced upon this thread while googling for something and saw concerns about the service agreement, etc.

I think I can relate to these concerns since I am a foreign student who is going to the US for my residency and returning to Singapore afterwards to fulfill the bond.

From my experience, the happiest people at Duke NUS are those who are happy being in Singapore. I can't stress enough how important location is when you're thinking about spending close to a decade in a place. I know Americans who are happy about migrating to Singapore, who have chosen to complete their residencies locally and will be here to complete the bond (being in Sg during your residency counts toward the bond).

Others are not yet sure what they want to do so they are choosing to train in Singapore and if they want to move back to the US, they would repeat their residency there and not worry about returning to serve the bond. In the process, they would have fulfilled the bond while completing training.

Those who are unhappy in Singapore (no family ties, too much of a culture shock, etc) and who cannot wait to move back to the US tend to be the most unhappy. It really is a significant amount of time to spend in a place if you hate it. During residency interviews, they always stress the importance of picking the strength of the program as well as the location because your happiness will dictate how well you will do in the program. I think the same can be said about med school in this case.

For those who are richer, they will probably pay off the bond, which costs about 500k SGD (about 400k USD). Or you could serve half your bond and pay half the amount, so on and so forth. The upside is you are paid quite well in Singapore, so if you save a lot in the first three years as an attending, you might just be able to pay off the final two years.

Anyways, these are some options people are thinking about. But as some have said, if you are happy being in Singapore for the long term, definitely come! If not, better to go to a US school and skip the inconvenience.

On a side note, Duke-NUS offers generous need based aid to students regardless of citizenship so the package makes med school possible for a lot of people who don't qualify for US loans. You can also borrow money from a Singapore bank to pay the rest of tuition. So, you don't pay now (but will have to pay later with the bond).

 

[bm87dxb]

That's a good point about ACGME-I. I think no one really knows at this point what this might mean for the future of folks graduating from these accredited residencies i.e. whether it might help their return to North America or aid their potential wish to practice elsewhere in the future. Regardless, it's obviously a benefit if nothing else. Though I'm sure north americans would wish this was more clearer but the organization and has just been setup so I'm guessing this is something we would have a better answer to in the future. Not sure if you have any comments on this medstudentsg? Highly doubt it but maybe somewhere down the line this might mean not having to repeat residency if someone does want to switch to practicing in North America.

All the 'life happens' factors are actually what concerns me. Would be nice to not have the lack of flexibility with the bond looming over your head - that being said, one could think of the bond has assured employment too. As medstudentsg mentioned, I guess it boils down to how happy you are being in Singapore for a long time if not for a long long long time.

That's steep but still interesting about paying off the bond - did not know about that all. Just curious is this something the school/government makes obvious or are there plenty of hoops to jump through in order to do something like that?

 

[medstudentsg]

I don't think ACGME=ACGME-i. So it looks unlikely that training under an ACGME-i accredited program will allow you to practice in the US. Most countries have protectionist policies, and the US, for better or for worse, have not allowed physicians to practice if they haven't trained in the country.

I don't think they will hassle you if you pay off the bond. Money is money. If you try to skip the bond, not pay and disappear off the face of the earth, well that's another story.

As long as you come in with your eyes open, I think it will be fine. It's the people who decide to move halfway around the world without knowing what life is like thousands of miles away from the US that I worry about. Singapore is not the US, so don't come expecting things to work as they do in the US. Attitude is everything. If you have a poor attitude, life will be miserable. =D

 

[ih371990]

I don't think ACGME=ACGME-i. So it looks unlikely that training under an ACGME-i accredited program will allow you to practice in the US. Most countries have protectionist policies, and the US, for better or for worse, have not allowed physicians to practice if they haven't trained in the country.

I don't think they will hassle you if you pay off the bond. Money is money. If you try to skip the bond, not pay and disappear off the face of the earth, well that's another story.

As long as you come in with your eyes open, I think it will be fine. It's the people who decide to move halfway around the world without knowing what life is like thousands of miles away from the US that I worry about. Singapore is not the US, so don't come expecting things to work as they do in the US. Attitude is everything. If you have a poor attitude, life will be miserable. =D

Yeah, ACGME and ACGME-I are two different things. Who knows what will happen in the future? Maybe they'll recognize residency in Singapore in the future? But I wouldn't bank a decision this big on something that might happen.

medstudentsg, you mentioned you just matched into residency in the US. Just out of curiosity, can you tell us a little about the process (especially like extra hoops you may have to go through compared to reg. US meds) and how many matched into US residencies? Thanks!

 

[ih371990]

online forum is at 53 members (i believe 2 are not 2013 intake). So, if 56 is the target class size, there aren't many spots left.

good luck waitlisters!

 

[pepperthelaunch]

online forum is at 53 members (i believe 2 are not 2013 intake). So, if 56 is the target class size, there aren't many spots left.

good luck waitlisters!

Aw, well good luck to you too starting first years!

 

[Medstart108]

Hey Bm87, I'm currently a med student studying in the UK and I believe that location matters. I like living here but its not my 1st choice, if everything else were the same, I wouldn't mind switching to Singapore. It really is about location. You can't spend 10 years just thinking about going back home. Its way too long to be thinking that, it will make you unhappy. Make sure you like Singapore because if you don't, honestly you will hate your decision.

 

[physiologist]

Hi everyone!

I just joined the google group. I'm really excited to start! I don't see myself as the typical North American student because I studied abroad at NUS and fell in love with Singapore. I realized that I would love to live there. My fiancé and his family are Singaporean. I have a lot of friends in Singapore and love the culture and find that I get along well with the people there.

That being said, the contract is kind of scary. It's not the 10+ years in Singapore that are the problem - I'd love to spend 10+ years there, and wouldn't mind living there permanently. However, I am worried about the stipulations that one wrong move and - BAM! Not only can they kick you out AT THEIR DISCRETION, you also have to pay however much of the bond you have to! I am not a disagreeable person. I have never had issues working in groups. My heart is certainly in the right place. I am just worried about potential bad luck - what if one professor hates me for whatever reason? What if a classmate hates me and is intent on seeing me fail? What if I make one honest mistake (as everyone does) that costs me? These scenarios can happen to anyone with one stroke of bad luck. However the stakes here would make me up to $500,000USD in debt if this would happen. Is the government magnanimous? I know this might sound paranoid but this is a huge amount of money that I really don't just have lying around. Is this a valid concern? medstudentsg and other Duke-NUS students, have you ever had any classmates or upperclassmen/underclassmen who have had issues related to the bond, have kicked out, failed out, etc.? I really want to come in with all eyes open and I'll need to do so in order to figure this all out.

You may PM me if it's a private matter.

 

[ih371990]

google group is at 58 (-2), so looks like it's up for this cycle if it's 56 for the class of 2017.

 

[ultimac]

there are seniors and more gms admins in the group

 

[ih371990]

there are seniors and more gms admins in the group

oh realli? my bad. only noted those with manager/owner status. well for what it's worth there's 58 in it so far!

 

[medstudentsg]

Yeah, ACGME and ACGME-I are two different things. Who knows what will happen in the future? Maybe they'll recognize residency in Singapore in the future? But I wouldn't bank a decision this big on something that might happen.

medstudentsg, you mentioned you just matched into residency in the US. Just out of curiosity, can you tell us a little about the process (especially like extra hoops you may have to go through compared to reg. US meds) and how many matched into US residencies? Thanks!

You're an incoming student? We have a handout for students who are interested in applying to US residencies and it has detailed information about the process. It's a little too much to type all of it in a public forum. Something that a group of people who have successfully matched compiled. Contact the Student Council president and I'm sure she'll be glad to forward you a copy once you enroll.

 

[ih371990]

You're an incoming student? We have a handout for students who are interested in applying to US residencies and it has detailed information about the process. It's a little too much to type all of it in a public forum. Something that a group of people who have successfully matched compiled. Contact the Student Council president and I'm sure she'll be glad to forward you a copy once you enroll.

Yep, incoming MS1
Quite excited for school to begin haha

 

[medstudentsg]

Hi everyone!

I just joined the google group. I'm really excited to start! I don't see myself as the typical North American student because I studied abroad at NUS and fell in love with Singapore. I realized that I would love to live there. My fiancé and his family are Singaporean. I have a lot of friends in Singapore and love the culture and find that I get along well with the people there.

That being said, the contract is kind of scary. It's not the 10+ years in Singapore that are the problem - I'd love to spend 10+ years there, and wouldn't mind living there permanently. However, I am worried about the stipulations that one wrong move and - BAM! Not only can they kick you out AT THEIR DISCRETION, you also have to pay however much of the bond you have to! I am not a disagreeable person. I have never had issues working in groups. My heart is certainly in the right place. I am just worried about potential bad luck - what if one professor hates me for whatever reason? What if a classmate hates me and is intent on seeing me fail? What if I make one honest mistake (as everyone does) that costs me? These scenarios can happen to anyone with one stroke of bad luck. However the stakes here would make me up to $500,000USD in debt if this would happen. Is the government magnanimous? I know this might sound paranoid but this is a huge amount of money that I really don't just have lying around. Is this a valid concern? medstudentsg and other Duke-NUS students, have you ever had any classmates or upperclassmen/underclassmen who have had issues related to the bond, have kicked out, failed out, etc.? I really want to come in with all eyes open and I'll need to do so in order to figure this all out.

You may PM me if it's a private matter.

I think you're overworrying. If they take you in the first place, it means you've proven yourself capable to survive medical school. Yes, I have known 2 people across 3 classes who were kicked out because they just did not have what it took to progress. Honestly, some people are not cut out to be doctors, and it was probably better for them to leave now, than to have problem afterwards as residents, physicians, etc. If you can't be a doctor, better do something else before you kill someone.

For the most part, even if you struggle, and who doesn't especially in the first year, they'll allow you chances to remediate. You can repeat exams in the first year and clinicals in the second and fourth year. You also have your teamLEAD classmates who will help you progress in the first year. But if for any reason, multiple clinical faculty think you are a danger to patients (lack of integrity, inability to learn, plain laziness, etc), then I'm afraid they'd let you go. No one will have the energy and time to fight to have you kicked out of med school based on a personal vendetta. And almost everyone in the faculty has a vested interest to see you succeed. The worst would be people who just don't care but no one is out to destroy you, don't worry. I think thus far everyone deserving has graduated or will graduate.

There was one student who had to leave for personal/family reasons and I think she's still repaying her student loans but I don't think she was held accountable for the bond. But I'm not entirely sure, something you'll have to ask the school to be sure.

 

[physiologist]

I think you're overworrying. If they take you in the first place, it means you've proven yourself capable to survive medical school. Yes, I have known 2 people across 3 classes who were kicked out because they just did not have what it took to progress. Honestly, some people are not cut out to be doctors, and it was probably better for them to leave now, than to have problem afterwards as residents, physicians, etc. If you can't be a doctor, better do something else before you kill someone.

For the most part, even if you struggle, and who doesn't especially in the first year, they'll allow you chances to remediate. You can repeat exams in the first year and clinicals in the second and fourth year. You also have your teamLEAD classmates who will help you progress in the first year. But if for any reason, multiple clinical faculty think you are a danger to patients (lack of integrity, inability to learn, plain laziness, etc), then I'm afraid they'd let you go. No one will have the energy and time to fight to have you kicked out of med school based on a personal vendetta. And almost everyone in the faculty has a vested interest to see you succeed. The worst would be people who just don't care but no one is out to destroy you, don't worry. I think thus far everyone deserving has graduated or will graduate.

There was one student who had to leave for personal/family reasons and I think she's still repaying her student loans but I don't think she was held accountable for the bond. But I'm not entirely sure, something you'll have to ask the school to be sure.

Thanks for the reassurance. Those people who were kicked out... were they responsible for the bond? Why were they kicked out... it is strange that with such a rigorous selection process with hundreds of qualified applicants rejected, that there would be students who "are not cut out to be doctors". I guess you never know until you try.

I'm really worried about all the money I'd owe in the very unlikely case that I am one of those students....

 

[medstudentsg]

Thanks for the reassurance. Those people who were kicked out... were they responsible for the bond? Why were they kicked out... it is strange that with such a rigorous selection process with hundreds of qualified applicants rejected, that there would be students who "are not cut out to be doctors". I guess you never know until you try.

I'm really worried about all the money I'd owe in the very unlikely case that I am one of those students....

Some people look better on paper than in person. Every year, you hear about people who don't match into residencies or drop out of residencies, so it happens more than you think. Thankfully, these are rare and exceptions rather than the rule.

I don't know about the bond for them. You should ask the school. All these are questions you should ask the school.

In any case, you can never be fully prepared for every possible scenario. Of course, it's good to know a lot and to be prepared. But also don't overworry; unless you don't think you have what it takes to succeed? =P

 

[pepperthelaunch]

This wait list is KILLING MEHHHH!!! When, IF EVER, is it gonna start movinngggg??


All summer I am doing the dance between me and my inbox. Well I guess re-apply it is.









*but I don't wanna re-apply *

 

[physiologist]

Reapply! If you made the waitlist it means they like you enough to consider you. Sometimes all it takes is just one more try.

 

[thelullaby99]

Reapply! If you made the waitlist it means they like you enough to consider you. Sometimes all it takes is just one more try.

It seems that they just randomly reject and wait list.

Got my rejection. Hurts more than anything, but then toothache is the worst

 

[sweetsecrets]

Hey guys I got off the waitlist. Received my acceptance early this morning. And I have been frantically making calls back home cause I'm currently in the states.

To those of you who're still waiting, hang in there. Those who didn't make it, I just want to say that I'm a reapplicant myself. I retook my A's even and have the whole world thinking I'm nuts because I actually got offers from the local universities already. All that, just for getting myself into med school. When I got rejected by Duke-NUS last year all hope was lost. I doubted throughout the months to reapplication this year, but with the encouragement of all the SDN friends I've made, I told myself to give it one last shot... and I made it.

I just want to say that I know, I truly do - I've been there in your shoes. But if medicine is your calling, you just cannot run away from it. Life's like a ticket to the amusement park. Someone asked, if it's worthy to queue for one ride that everyone is dying for, missing out on all the other rides that may be just as good. I am so glad I didn't step out of the queue now that I am about to hop on the ride.

I am actually here in the states to do my DAT, cause it allows me to be an oral maxillofacial surgeon, somewhat similar to cleft and craniofacial surgery. It was a backup plan, as this is, afterall the application cycle that I've convinced myself to be my last shot. However just before I flew here, I started to wonder if this is even a good idea. I wonder if I would like dentistry just as much, I spoke to fellow SDN people, asking them for their opinions and weighing my options out with them. And I'm just more than grateful for everything now. If you ask me, I would do it all over again.

Whenever I lose my courage throughout the past year... the courage to possibly fail again, I look back at this video my brother sent to me when I got my rejection from Duke-NUS last year. I hope it gives you courage the way it gave me, if you haven't already watched it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHGqp8lz36c

 

[hhhhhkai]

congrats sweetsecrets must have been an immense feeling!

 

[physiologist]

Congrats!! That must feel incredible!

See you in July!

 

[thelullaby99]

OMG sweetsecrets!!! Congrats! I am jealous, but CONGRATS!! You deserve this

Any ideas how many still on the waitlist hanging on for dear life? Just kidding! I'm a reject too btw, and reapplying!

 

[sweetsecrets]

OMG sweetsecrets!!! Congrats! I am jealous, but CONGRATS!! You deserve this

Any ideas how many still on the waitlist hanging on for dear life? Just kidding! I'm a reject too btw, and reapplying!

hey pm me if you need any mcat resources. i could pass it all to you.

thank you guys! see you in school, physiology.

 

[thelullaby99]

hey pm me if you need any mcat resources. i could pass it all to you.

thank you guys! see you in school, physiology.

I'm not really sure yet but thanks! Will let you know.

What improvements did you achieve between this and last year's app? I have stopped volunteering but continue doing full-time work and research.

And some shadowing (as patient translator)

 

[sweetsecrets]

I'm not really sure yet but thanks! Will let you know.

What improvements did you achieve between this and last year's app? I have stopped volunteering but continue doing full-time work and research.

And some shadowing (as patient translator)

Hey, I worked full-time doing research... and that's about it. Rewrote all my essays. Continued with my volunteer work as I have always been doing. :/ Retook my MCAT as well. Hope this helps?

 

[thelullaby99]

Hey, I worked full-time doing research... and that's about it. Rewrote all my essays. Continued with my volunteer work as I have always been doing. :/ Retook my MCAT as well. Hope this helps?

I am doing research too, but only part-time. And recently I have been neglecting my research duties because of a job.

I took MCAT twice. Don't know if I would consider a third.

I no longer volunteer. The hospitals here won't accept any, clinics too. But I got some hours of shadowing done.

Uh well..

 

[sweetsecrets]

I am doing research too, but only part-time. And recently I have been neglecting my research duties because of a job.

I took MCAT twice. Don't know if I would consider a third.

I no longer volunteer. The hospitals here won't accept any, clinics too. But I got some hours of shadowing done.

Uh well..

Hmm... I mean volunteering as in helping the community. As for shadowing I have been doing on and off here and there the past few years. :/ Hmm. if your MCAT score is good enough I think you can use the same score. I think the fact that you're still doing research is a good indicator of your interest in research, and it doesn't hurt that you're having another job. Whether it's full-time or part-time doesn't matter. In fact if you're doing it part-time on a voluntary basis I think it speaks volume of you, no? Good luck for the next application.

 

[thelullaby99]

EDIT: I removed the original post after some complain. Sorry if it sounded like an attempt to turn myself into a pitiful applicant.

 

[type12]

removed, wrong thread