2019 USNWR Rankings

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thecad said:
So you think I should account for something that hasn’t happened/might not happen? This whole inferiority complex where you defend NYU at every opportunity only makes me think less of the school tbh.
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USNWR was obviously very important to you. I'm sorry for your loss. Don't worry though we won't make you come to our inferior institution.

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thecad said:
So you think I should account for something that hasn’t happened/might not happen? This whole inferiority complex where you defend NYU at every opportunity only makes me think less of the school tbh.
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Everyone’s going to defend their own institution generally (unless you absolutely hate your school like I do my UG). I don’t think it has anything to do with inferiority complex. Langone is a great school without a doubt and it’s pointless trying to argue if it’s justified as Top10 because it’s USNEWS, and anyone who knows any better doesn’t take it seriously. Go somewhere where you will be happy and that is your number 1 school.
 
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How do you think Harvard/the rest of the top 20 stack up against international medical schools? Cambridge, Oxford, UCL, Karolinska Institutet...etc.
 
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thecad said:
Yea I don’t really care about that ranking, which is why the first post I made was defending NYU. I’m talking about how he tries to interject NYU into everything and even makes up numbers to try and make his institution seem better.



This was about med schools with the lowest debt. Northwestern grads have an average dept of 180k, NYU with an average debt of 170k— numbers that are far above the median. Meanwhile washu,stanford,hms grads have half that amount. But somehow he came to the conclusion that NYU is one of the most budget friendly schools lol.
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Haha I was joking that those schools would be top 3 because they're the most expensive. I'm honestly not trying to antagonize you, I just really want to go home but can't until 4.
 
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thecad said:
Yea I don’t really care about that ranking, which is why the first post I made was defending NYU. I’m talking about how he tries to interject NYU into everything and even makes up numbers to try and make his institution seem better.



This was about med schools with the lowest debt. Northwestern grads have an average dept of 180k, NYU with an average debt of 170k— numbers that are far above the median. Meanwhile washu,stanford,hms grads have half that amount. But somehow he came to the conclusion that NYU is one of the most budget friendly schools lol.
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I think it was sarcasm though
 
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thecad said:
Mb then. I honestly thought these three super rich schools would be in the running for best finaid
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Nope. You would think but a lot of the money gets funneled back into real estate and aggressive expansion for NYU. Not much actually gets back to students in the form of scholarship while tuition/dorm/living expenses continue to rise like crazy. I guess when you’re the second largest estate owner in NYC, you get to be a top3.
 
Regardless of rankings, from a purely informational standpoint this seems to be the closest thing to MSAR for DO schools, unless someone has found a better option.
 
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I think we can all agree on one thing. It would have been much more fun if Harvard fell from no. 1. We must break free from our US News overlords! I remember when I was in high school and Princeton beat Harvard for no. 1. I think people developed epilepsy from it.

I think if I was picking between the Manhattan schools right now, Columbia being closer to Levian's bakery would play a bigger role for me than these rankings.
 
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Maybe I'm an idiot, but do these matter at all? I don't understand why they are always such a big deal. I feel like it's just some useless ranking some random company puts up.
 
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rabbott1971 said:
Regardless of rankings, from a purely informational standpoint this seems to be the closest thing to MSAR for DO schools, unless someone has found a better option.
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I think DO schools should start their own ranking system. Participating in US News is so useless for them. The majority of them aren't affiliated with universities which automatically puts them at an extreme disadvantage. Idk why they even bother participating.
 
pioneer22 said:
no way nyu lasts
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There is precedent for this kind of thing. You know good old U Chicago undergrad, which has consistently been ranked among HYPSM for years, has a single digit admit rate and top 1% SAT scores?

Yeah...in 2002, they were ranked #39 and had a 42% admit rate.

If a school figures out the right things to focus on, they can jump up and stay there, and while it takes 10+ years everyone eventually just accepts that they're in the elite a.f. crowd for reals.
 
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efle said:
There is precedent for this kind of thing. You know good old U Chicago undergrad, which has consistently been ranked among HYPSM for years, has a single digit admit rate and top 1% SAT scores?

Yeah...in 2002, they were ranked #39 and had a 42% admit rate.

If a school figures out the right things to focus on, they can jump up and stay there, and while it takes 10+ years everyone eventually just accepts that they're in the elite a.f. crowd for reals.
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Agreed; that assumes NYU is and will be the best school in NYC, but Columbia is and likely will remain the best in NYC, with debt-free medical school, $1+ billion in research and $500+ million donations this year.
 
pioneer22 said:
Agreed; that assumes NYU is and will be the best school in NYC, but Columbia is and likely will remain the best in NYC, with debt-free medical school, $1+ billion in research and $500+ million donations this year.
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What do you mean by debt free? They give out aid to low income students, but what if you're parents make a decent education but won't pay for your education?
 
Gilakend said:
Maybe I'm an idiot, but do these matter at all? I don't understand why they are always such a big deal. I feel like it's just some useless ranking some random company puts up.
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In the words of Rafael Rivera (of NYU) himself, "basically people let some magazine dictate where they want to spend four years at medical school."
 
Saifa said:
In the words of Rafael Rivera (of NYU) himself, "basically people let some magazine dictate where they want to spend four years at medical school."
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That was pre top 3 ranking. I guarantee by the time the first 2018-2019 interview cohorts get to NYU in autumn, there will be signs up showing off the rank.
 
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LuciusVorenus said:
I think we can all agree on one thing. It would have been much more fun if Harvard fell from no. 1. We must break free from our US News overlords! I remember when I was in high school and Princeton beat Harvard for no. 1. I think people developed epilepsy from it.

I think if I was picking between the Manhattan schools right now, Columbia being closer to Levian's bakery would play a bigger role for me than these rankings.
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Stanford was the #1 UG in the 1980s. Yale was #1 in the early 1990s. Harvard was #1 in the mid 1990s. Princeton and Harvard were both #1 in late 1990s, and CalTech actually took #1 in 2000! Harvard and Princeton were tied for #1 in the mid 2000s, switched off around ~2010 and Princeton has been sole #1 since 2014. The point being that there is pretty good movement amongst the top schools. With the top school getting 100/100 and the #2 always getting 98/100 in the USNWR.

HMS has been #1 in every single ranking of USNWR and it's never even been close. It will never fall from #1
 
toyland94 said:
Stanford was the #1 UG in the 1980s. Yale was #1 in the early 1990s. Harvard was #1 in the mid 1990s. Princeton and Harvard were both #1 in late 1990s, and CalTech actually took #1 in 2000! Harvard and Princeton were tied for #1 in the mid 2000s, switched off around ~2010 and Princeton has been sole #1 since 2014. The point being that there is pretty good movement amongst the top schools. With the top school getting 100/100 and the #2 always getting 98/100 in the USNWR.

HMS has been #1 in every single ranking of USNWR and it's never even been close. It will never fall from #1
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Have faith!
 
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toyland94 said:
Stanford was the #1 UG in the 1980s. Yale was #1 in the early 1990s. Harvard was #1 in the mid 1990s. Princeton and Harvard were both #1 in late 1990s, and CalTech actually took #1 in 2000! Harvard and Princeton were tied for #1 in the mid 2000s, switched off around ~2010 and Princeton has been sole #1 since 2014. The point being that there is pretty good movement amongst the top schools. With the top school getting 100/100 and the #2 always getting 98/100 in the USNWR.

HMS has been #1 in every single ranking of USNWR and it's never even been close. It will never fall from #1
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I'm imagining an alternate reality where a huge part of ranking was the average winter temperature, and Stanford was always #1 out of HYPSM by a huge margin, and everyone talked about how Stanford was a class of its own and turning down a full ride to Yale to go there totally could make sense.
 
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efle said:
That was pre top 3 ranking. I guarantee by the time the first 2018-2019 interview cohorts get to NYU in autumn, there will be signs up showing off the rank.
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It may or may not have already been printed on the back of the admissions folders
 
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I think we can all agree that schools which are over-ranked are NYU, Mayo, UCLA and the under-ranked ones are Yale, UChicago, and UMichigan.

Knowlegeable people know that the top research schools are: HMS, Hopkins, UCSF, Duke, Penn, Columbia, WashU, Yale, UChicago, Stanford, Michigan

What Makes a Top Research Medical School? A Call for a New... : Academic Medicine

^this actually takes into account how successful graduates are as researchers and is therefore a measure of the academic education.
 
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LuciusVorenus said:
I think DO schools should start their own ranking system. Participating in US News is so useless for them. The majority of them aren't affiliated with universities which automatically puts them at an extreme disadvantage. Idk why they even bother participating.
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Again I'm not interested in rankings, but in the information that you get on allopathic schools from MSAR -- there is no equivalent compendium of information on DO schools that I know of, and for thirty bucks (coincidentally same price as MSAR) you can have that a version of similar info from USNWR.
 
ranson said:
I think we can all agree that schools which are over-ranked are NYU, Mayo, UCLA and the under-ranked ones are Yale, UChicago, and UMichigan.

Knowlegeable people know that the top research schools are: HMS, Hopkins, UCSF, Duke, Penn, Columbia, WashU, Yale, UChicago, Stanford

What Makes a Top Research Medical School? A Call for a New... : Academic Medicine

^this actually takes into account how successful graduates are as researchers and is therefore a measure of the academic education.
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Except that the vast majority of us will never enter academic medicine, and even less non-PSTP students will ever have NIH funded labs. "These rankings don't agree with my preconceived notions of good schools, so let's look for new rankings that do."

I wish it was illegal to rank schools.
 
ranson said:
I think we can all agree that schools which are over-ranked are NYU, Mayo, UCLA and the under-ranked ones are Yale, UChicago, and UMichigan.

Knowlegeable people know that the top research schools are: HMS, Hopkins, UCSF, Duke, Penn, Columbia, WashU, Yale, UChicago, Stanford

What Makes a Top Research Medical School? A Call for a New... : Academic Medicine

^this actually takes into account how successful graduates are as researchers and is therefore a measure of the academic education.
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I wouldn’t say UCLA is over ranked since their rank didn’t really change; 11 last year and somewhere in top 13 before.

Then again I’m super biased as I interviewed here and patiently awaiting a decision. If I cop a rejex I’ll be sure to return and edit my comment.
 
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efle said:
That was pre top 3 ranking. I guarantee by the time the first 2018-2019 interview cohorts get to NYU in autumn, there will be signs up showing off the rank.
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They absolutely will. I still have my packet from this interview season where they had Number 11 in usnews all over it
 
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There has been a lot of debate here, but I think the heart of the issue (for me at least) is not what the final rankings are necessarily, but how those rankings were determined. It would be one thing if NYU had made a steady effort over many years to tangibly enhance its rankings, but instead they made a huge jump just because USNWR arbitrarily changed the methodology. If NYU is in fact no better a school than it was last year, then it's patently absurd for such a huge ranking jump to occur (in fact, I think this applies to Mayo too).

Of course, I can easily reconcile this by saying the actual rankings are poorly conceived. But that doesn't change the fact that people still put stock into these rankings. NYU already put out a glowing press release. I guarantee that even Mayo, previously "too good" to provide complete information to USNWR for rankings, will now gloat about these new rankings. But the fact that the peer-assessment scores don't match well with the overall rankings points toward a fatal error in the conception of this methodology.
 
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LuciusVorenus said:
Except that the vast majority of us will never enter academic medicine, and even less non-PSTP students will ever have NIH funded labs. "These rankings don't agree with my preconceived notions of good schools, so let's look for new rankings that do."

I wish it was illegal to rank schools.
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Academic medicine is the whole point of attending a research intensive medical school. If you’re looking for good medical training you get it almost everywhere in the US. The point of going to a top research school is to work with academic leaders in the field and conduct high quality research. If you want to be in private practice or just be a solid clinician then there is no point to attend one of these schools over any other.
 
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Willy38 said:
Academic medicine is the whole point of attending a research intensive medical school. If you’re looking for good medical training you get it almost everywhere in the US. The point of going to a top research school is to work with academic leaders in the field and conduct high quality research. If you want to be in private practice or just be a solid clinician then there is no point to attend one of these schools over any other.
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Unfortunately in IM to have a good chance of matching into a cards or GI fellowship you need to go to a well known program which means you need to apply from a well known med school. Most of the kids at these schools aren't going to end up being in academic medicine. Very few doctors actually do.
 
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toyland94 said:
It seems you don't know much about HMS since you're from the west coast, let me help you out. HMS' main teaching sites are BWH, Children's, Beth Israel, and Dana-Farber (all within a block or two of campus). It would be preposterous to not include those. There are some students at HMS who never even step foot in MG. MG could be included in the list too, but it's not in Longwood and just as many students rotate in the other listed hospitals as MG. HMS has CLEARLY been leagues ahead of every other medical school for centuries. They are 100/100 by USNWR and have received a perfect score in literally every single edition (whether it's a research, peer rank, or MCAT heavy methodology year). Most years, the #2 school (whether it's Hopkins, UCSF, WashU, Penn, or Stanford) is ~80-85 out of 100. The difference in the 2019 ranking between #1 HMS and #2 Hopkins is same as the difference between #2 Hopkins and #22 UC San Diego. HMS is, and always will be, in a league of it's own. I agree that'd it'd be silly to go to #1 over a Penn full-tuition, or hometown Stanford/UCSF just for the ranking, but let's not pretend HMS isn't in a league of its own. HMS is ranked #1 in all 7 of the specialty rankings. No other top 10 besides Hopkins (which has one specialty tied with HMS) and UCSF (which has 2 top 3's) come even close to that.
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This is satire, right?

You're citing US News rankings to support your claim that HMS has been leagues ahead of every other medical school for centuries so it must be satire.
 
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Cyberdyne 101 said:
This is satire, right?

You're citing US News rankings to support your claim that HMS has been leagues ahead of every other medical school for centuries so it must be satire.
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Yep, I'm citing USNWR, the near-consensus publicly-used ranking of graduate schools. Do you see any other SDN threads about medical school rankings for 2019? But let's look at Doximity too, the widely used app which ranks medical schools by their residency program strengths? Oh wow, Harvard is MILES ahead on that system too! Or let's look at peer-reviewed literature for which school has the most successful graduates? What's that? HMS is easily #1 there too and the authors talk about a ceiling effect for them? Let's look at the 2015 Shanghai ratings for best medical schools not in the country, but in the world? Oh, HMS is 100/100 and the next best school doesn't even top 80. Let's look at nobel laureates or surgeon genereals....HMS is way ahead there too? Hmmm, my claim that HMS is miles ahead of everyone is SOOOOO outlandish, isn't it?
 
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Yo let’s get some PRN Xanax up in this thread. Geeeeez


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
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toyland94 said:
Yep, I'm citing USNWR, the near-consensus publicly-used ranking of graduate schools. Do you see any other SDN threads about medical school rankings for 2019? But let's look at Doximity too, the widely used app which ranks medical schools by their residency program strengths? Oh wow, Harvard is MILES ahead on that system too! Or let's look at peer-reviewed literature for which school has the most successful graduates? What's that? HMS is easily #1 there too and the authors talk about a ceiling effect for them? Let's look at the 2015 Shanghai ratings for best medical schools not in the country, but in the world? Oh, HMS is 100/100 and the next best school doesn't even top 80. Hmmm, my claim that HMS is miles ahead of everyone is SOOOOO outlandish, isn't it?
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Sure, all reasonable. But it is also not outlandish to say that this is two different ways of saying their hospital network is largest and a bonus statement that MGH has good residency training in most specialties. It is not outlandish to look at the med school itself via PD ratings of its students, or admits given per year to the pool of top applicants, or the strength of the hospital most rotations are done at, and come away with other places just just as good or better.

I'm getting deja vu at this point though
 
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LuciusVorenus said:
Except that the vast majority of us will never enter academic medicine, and even less non-PSTP students will ever have NIH funded labs. "These rankings don't agree with my preconceived notions of good schools, so let's look for new rankings that do."

I wish it was illegal to rank schools.
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Except that the rankings in that article were published 3 years before the current USNWR.

LuciusVorenus said:
Unfortunately in IM to have a good chance of matching into a cards or GI fellowship you need to go to a well known program which means you need to apply from a well known med school. Most of the kids at these schools aren't going to end up being in academic medicine. Very few doctors actually do.
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Actually, students at more research intensive schools are more likely to go into academic medicine than those at less research intensive schools. Therefore, if a school is ranked high on research rankings and their future grads don't publish/work in academics, then that school's research curriculum/education is lacking.
 
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efle said:
Sure, all reasonable. But it is also not outlandish to say that this is two different ways of saying their hospital network is largest and a bonus statement that MGH has good residency training in most specialties. It is not outlandish to look at the med school itself via PD ratings of its students, or admits given per year to the pool of top applicants, or the strength of the hospital most rotations are done at, and come away with other places just just as good or better.

I'm getting deja vu at this point though
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Sure, there are metrics were HMS won't be #1. But when looking ~holistically~ I think it always rises to the top. I don't disagree with your comment at all, I was mostly irritated that someone thought it was "satire" that I was trying to argue that HMS is the best school in the country. It's not a ridiculous claim at all. Would it also be a ridiculous claim that Hopkins is just as good at HMS in many things? No.
 
ranson said:
Except that the rankings in that article were published 3 years before the current USNWR.



Actually, students at more research intensive schools are more likely to go into academic medicine than those at less research intensive schools. Therefore, if a school is ranked high on research rankings and their future grads don't publish/work in academics, then that school's research curriculum/education is lacking.
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I didn't say the paper was doing that, I was saying people in this thread were.

Also, no kidding. 15% is a bigger number than 2% but it's still not the majority of students. If you're trying to argue that the majority of students going to top 10s end up in academic careers then you're just going to have that conversation with someone who cares enough to find the data for you.
 
Honestly, though, I still don't get what the big deal is. If you think Stanford or UCSF or Columbia is a better school than NYU or Mayo then...just go there instead? More room for people on the waitlist. It's not like now you have to go to a school you don't think is that great because some website says you do. You guys are acting like your idols have been destroyed and now you need to start a new religion from scratch. Relax.
 
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