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229 on Step 1
- Thread starter liquid magma
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it seems hopeless. maybe u should drop out of medical school now. i feel for u, and ur lousy "229"
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You got to be kidding ... right!! Of course, you should still apply ... your application is more than board scores and AOA. All of that helps but if you have no character ... no volunteer activities...no research ... no outside interest other than studying ... then ... you might be doomed. However, 229 is an excellent score ... especially when the average is like 215. And ... in my opinion ... after you get those interviews ... you may not even want to go there. I ranked BWH as 5th on my list and MGH as 10th. So .. the best ... may not be the right choice for you!!!
Good Luck!
Good Luck!
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Residency programs receive a tremendous number of applications for a limited number of spots. For this reason, programs have adopted various screening criteria to whittle down a larger applicant pool into a smaller, more manageable number. It is this group that are extended interview invitations. Obviously, to stand any chance of matching into a program, you need to make this first cut, so to speak.
As I mentioned the screening criteria vary from program to program. Some programs rely heavily on the USMLE step 1 score. If you exceed their cutoff, you make it to the next round while others have devised formulas which incorporate third-year clerkship grades and other factors (along with the board score) to aid in their decision-making.
I do not have any specific knowledge about UCSF or Harvard and what happens behind the scenes there but it is my hope that you will receive responses from students who have interviewed there with step 1 scores < 230.
But for a minute, let's take the worse case scenario. Let us suppose that both programs do not consider applicants with step 1 scores < 230. Is there anything that can be done to help such an applicant secure an interview?
The answer is yes. I'd like to offer you several examples.
1) Every medical school has faculty members that are nationally and internationally recognized for their expertise and work. Their work brings them into contact with faculty at places like Harvard and UCSF. Collaborative efforts ensue and strong working relationships are established. What does this mean for you? If you can impress this type of attending at your own school, you can secure a fantastic letter of recommendation. When it comes time to apply for residency, the decision-makers at Harvard and UCSF may be quite impressed that such a big name was willing to go to bat for you. An attending such as this one can also make calls on your behalf, helping you to secure an interview.
2) If you study the background of faculty at your medical school, I am sure you will find faculty who were on staff at UCSF or Harvard (or received some of their training there). If you can get to know these attendings and impress them with your work, they can call their colleagues (who they probably know fairly well) on your behalf, once again helping you secure an interview.
3) Why not consider doing an elective or rotation at UCSF or Harvard? Once you are there, you can focus all your efforts on impressing them. You will have a Harvard or UCSF attending who will be able to write a letter for you/speak on your behalf.
These are just some options. Remember that as you move up the ladder, your contacts and who you know can make a big difference.
Hope this helps and good luck with everything,
Samir Desai, MD
Assistant Professor of Medicine
Baylor College of Medicine
As I mentioned the screening criteria vary from program to program. Some programs rely heavily on the USMLE step 1 score. If you exceed their cutoff, you make it to the next round while others have devised formulas which incorporate third-year clerkship grades and other factors (along with the board score) to aid in their decision-making.
I do not have any specific knowledge about UCSF or Harvard and what happens behind the scenes there but it is my hope that you will receive responses from students who have interviewed there with step 1 scores < 230.
But for a minute, let's take the worse case scenario. Let us suppose that both programs do not consider applicants with step 1 scores < 230. Is there anything that can be done to help such an applicant secure an interview?
The answer is yes. I'd like to offer you several examples.
1) Every medical school has faculty members that are nationally and internationally recognized for their expertise and work. Their work brings them into contact with faculty at places like Harvard and UCSF. Collaborative efforts ensue and strong working relationships are established. What does this mean for you? If you can impress this type of attending at your own school, you can secure a fantastic letter of recommendation. When it comes time to apply for residency, the decision-makers at Harvard and UCSF may be quite impressed that such a big name was willing to go to bat for you. An attending such as this one can also make calls on your behalf, helping you to secure an interview.
2) If you study the background of faculty at your medical school, I am sure you will find faculty who were on staff at UCSF or Harvard (or received some of their training there). If you can get to know these attendings and impress them with your work, they can call their colleagues (who they probably know fairly well) on your behalf, once again helping you secure an interview.
3) Why not consider doing an elective or rotation at UCSF or Harvard? Once you are there, you can focus all your efforts on impressing them. You will have a Harvard or UCSF attending who will be able to write a letter for you/speak on your behalf.
These are just some options. Remember that as you move up the ladder, your contacts and who you know can make a big difference.
Hope this helps and good luck with everything,
Samir Desai, MD
Assistant Professor of Medicine
Baylor College of Medicine
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liquid magma,
you're an idiot. if you think you have no chance with your credentials, what will happen to all of us other saps? and yet, average people still make it into top programs.
you're an idiot. if you think you have no chance with your credentials, what will happen to all of us other saps? and yet, average people still make it into top programs.
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I am a third year med student and feel that I have not gotten much guidance from my school on how to go about the whole residency application process. I did ask my 1st year of med school how much emphasis I should put on volunteer work, etc. and was told that I should concentrate on being the best student that I could and gathering the most knowledge. I did this. Now I am reading that if your application looks like you did nothing but study, you will be overlooked.
I did a lot more than study, but it does not show up as volunteer work. I have excellent marks and a very high Step I score. Other than that, I think I'll have good LORs and hopefully Junior AOA. Nothing else.
Do you think this is enough to go to a top program without any of the volunteer credits on my resume?
I did a lot more than study, but it does not show up as volunteer work. I have excellent marks and a very high Step I score. Other than that, I think I'll have good LORs and hopefully Junior AOA. Nothing else.
Do you think this is enough to go to a top program without any of the volunteer credits on my resume?
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hey, that reminds me! have you guys heard the one about the gunner who did well on step I, aced their rotations, and had absolutely no common sense? it's funny man.......funnnnnny. i guess there's more to intelligence than grades. who woulda thunk it.
E
endo
I think the cut-off for volunteer work at the top programs is ~20,000 hours. Without more than this amount you are doomed. Sorry to be the one to have to break the awful news to you.
-endo
-endo
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Hey yahoos,
Give the kid a friggin' break...
All liquid magma was asking for was someone to step forward and share if they got an interview at those places with less than a 230.
Liquid magma, it's tough to figure out the whole residency process, but I'd take Dr. Desai's advice very seriously. He knows what he's talking about. And don't let these other *****s get to you. It's easy to act like a jackass when your future is being decided by a computer program.
Hop Toad, obviously volunteer work is not your thing -- otherwise you would have done it. Do what gets you excited -- whether it be studying, research, lawn bowling, etc. It'll show through on your application and personal statement. High Step I and junior AOA should be plenty to get interviews at 99% of the IM programs out there. Then it's just a matter of your personality.
Med03IBD, you're a ******.
-M
Give the kid a friggin' break...
All liquid magma was asking for was someone to step forward and share if they got an interview at those places with less than a 230.
Liquid magma, it's tough to figure out the whole residency process, but I'd take Dr. Desai's advice very seriously. He knows what he's talking about. And don't let these other *****s get to you. It's easy to act like a jackass when your future is being decided by a computer program.
Hop Toad, obviously volunteer work is not your thing -- otherwise you would have done it. Do what gets you excited -- whether it be studying, research, lawn bowling, etc. It'll show through on your application and personal statement. High Step I and junior AOA should be plenty to get interviews at 99% of the IM programs out there. Then it's just a matter of your personality.
Med03IBD, you're a ******.
-M
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To everyone who said something on my behalf...thanks!
Just to let you all know, I have not given up hope yet, I just wanted to see if anyone got interivews at my two dream schools with Step 1 scores below the supposedly magic number of 230. That's all.
I appreciate all the encouragement, though I certainly would have preffered hearing positive stories from others in my situation. I am guessing that the lack of positive responses is an indication of how rare it is to match at these places with average board scores and high grades.
I also have been doing everything I can to strengthen my cv and overcome a less than stellar Step 1 score. I just finished a Howard Hughes Fellowship and got a couple of papers under my belt, I chaired a committee with our dean to rewrite our curriculum. And, like I said, I've been getting mostly honors at a med. school where the grading is based almost entirely on evaluations done by residents and attendings (shelf scores are almost never used), which means that people think I am easy to work with.
I guess what I am trying to say is that I am frustrated b/c I feel as though I have done all the "right" things, and just because of one test score--which, though not as high as some, is not bad either--the schools I want to go to won't even grant me an interview.
Just to let you all know, I have not given up hope yet, I just wanted to see if anyone got interivews at my two dream schools with Step 1 scores below the supposedly magic number of 230. That's all.
I appreciate all the encouragement, though I certainly would have preffered hearing positive stories from others in my situation. I am guessing that the lack of positive responses is an indication of how rare it is to match at these places with average board scores and high grades.
I also have been doing everything I can to strengthen my cv and overcome a less than stellar Step 1 score. I just finished a Howard Hughes Fellowship and got a couple of papers under my belt, I chaired a committee with our dean to rewrite our curriculum. And, like I said, I've been getting mostly honors at a med. school where the grading is based almost entirely on evaluations done by residents and attendings (shelf scores are almost never used), which means that people think I am easy to work with.
I guess what I am trying to say is that I am frustrated b/c I feel as though I have done all the "right" things, and just because of one test score--which, though not as high as some, is not bad either--the schools I want to go to won't even grant me an interview.
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I'm only an M1, but since no one has pointed this out...
I can't speak for San Francisco, but Brighams and MGH - while the most prestigious - are not the only Boston or even Harvard hospitals out there. 🙂 There's Beth Israel Deaconess, which is where I'd especially hope to have a shot at three years from now (a Temple 2002 grad matched) as well as Cambridge and Mount Airy. And that's not counting the many Tufts and BU hospitals too. With your credentials I'm sure if you want to relocate there for residency, you will. Good luck!
I can't speak for San Francisco, but Brighams and MGH - while the most prestigious - are not the only Boston or even Harvard hospitals out there. 🙂 There's Beth Israel Deaconess, which is where I'd especially hope to have a shot at three years from now (a Temple 2002 grad matched) as well as Cambridge and Mount Airy. And that's not counting the many Tufts and BU hospitals too. With your credentials I'm sure if you want to relocate there for residency, you will. Good luck!
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Liquid,
I would say that if the computers let you in the door, you have a much more impressive resume than I do. I'm not really worried about having interviews granted, it's the matching that really matters.
I am not a person that played the political games in my med school class. This may end up being a big mistake, but it was just not in me, so I would not have been good at it anyway. I don't even hang out with any other med students. I am very social though.
It will be very interesting to see how this plays out. I wish you a lot of luck. I don't believe for a second that you have to have 99th percentile board scores to do well in the match. It's just like getting into med school, a crap shoot.
I do think there are some real dorks on this board. You may be able to get a great Step 1 score with no common sense, but you can't fool everyone in your rotations without some "people" skills.
I would love to hear some stories of what people have heard out in the real world with how matches came out with people they actually knew.
Thanks.
I would say that if the computers let you in the door, you have a much more impressive resume than I do. I'm not really worried about having interviews granted, it's the matching that really matters.
I am not a person that played the political games in my med school class. This may end up being a big mistake, but it was just not in me, so I would not have been good at it anyway. I don't even hang out with any other med students. I am very social though.
It will be very interesting to see how this plays out. I wish you a lot of luck. I don't believe for a second that you have to have 99th percentile board scores to do well in the match. It's just like getting into med school, a crap shoot.
I do think there are some real dorks on this board. You may be able to get a great Step 1 score with no common sense, but you can't fool everyone in your rotations without some "people" skills.
I would love to hear some stories of what people have heard out in the real world with how matches came out with people they actually knew.
Thanks.
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🙁 hey mdousha, c'mon man, don't get all butthurt. it'll be ok. i tell you what, to use my reasoning: if i had any intelligence, i'd have common sense, and i wouldn't have been soo mean. chill out before you bring new meaning to the term 'sphincter tone'.
liquid..hot...MAGma - don't send your application to business school out quite yet. if you so choose that you want that kind of environment, you'll surely be strolling the halls of MGH in a little over 1 year. a friend of mine scored no where near 229, honored very few clerkships, but had great letters and work experience. he has received a phone call promising a spot at MGH. technically not a guarantee, but.....
listen to dr. desai. he's written books.
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Med03 -- alright, so i got a little fired up defending the kid...
here's why: i hate gunners just as much as the next person, but it bugs the
hell out of me when that term gets thrown on someone just because he or
she has a little bit of aspiration and a lot of drive. if liquid magma had no personality and/or was screwing over classmates, all for the sake of ending up at MGH, then, yeah, he's by all means a gunner. but otherwise, he's just a guy with lofty goals, and he just wants to know how he can make them happen.
alright, i better get back to the peds board before they notice i'm gone...
-M
here's why: i hate gunners just as much as the next person, but it bugs the
hell out of me when that term gets thrown on someone just because he or
she has a little bit of aspiration and a lot of drive. if liquid magma had no personality and/or was screwing over classmates, all for the sake of ending up at MGH, then, yeah, he's by all means a gunner. but otherwise, he's just a guy with lofty goals, and he just wants to know how he can make them happen.
alright, i better get back to the peds board before they notice i'm gone...
-M
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Liquid magma,
As you have shared more information about yourself with us, it has become clear to me that you have performed admirably in medical school. For that, you should certainly be congratulated.
Just remember that the USMLE step 1 score is just one factor, not the only factor IM residency program directors find useful in their decision-making process. While some programs do use a certain USMLE score as a cutoff, many others do not. I certainly hope that UCSF and Harvard are in the latter group. Of course, unless someone in the know responds to this discussion, it will be difficult to say one way or the other.
Although your IM director mentioned that these programs would not even look at your application, I certainly wouldn't let that stop you from an all out effort to secure a position at these programs. You should ask yourself why the IM director made such a statement. Does he or she have some specific information to base such a statement on? It's not common for residency programs to share their screening criteria (at least the specifics) with other programs.
Lara also makes a good point. There are many other residency programs in these two cities that are well regarded. Having said that, at this point in time, you seem to have your heart set on one of these two programs so we should focus our efforts on maximizing your chances to obtain a position there.
I believe you should take things one step at a time. At this point, your goal is to secure an interview. To secure an interview, program directors will look at your board score, third-year clerkship evaluations, Dean's letter, letters of recommendation, and personal statements. You should do everything you can to strengthen these components of your applications.
A lot can be accomplished in the next four to five months before you send out your applications. Make inquiries at your medical school - seek out faculty who used to be on staff at Harvard or UCSF as well as those who are prominent figures in their field. Consider doing a rotation with one of them to help you secure an excellent letter of recommendation. As I mentioned in my previous post, a phone call from one of these individuals on your behalf can do wonders for an application. Don't underestimate the power of connections.
You can, of course, do an away rotation at UCSF or Harvard. If you choose to do so, you need to get started early because spots fill up quickly. With some research, you may be able to find out who is on the residency selection committee at these institutions. Perhaps you can arrange to do a rotation under the supervision of one of these faculty members. If your performance is impressive, believe me, the attending will share that with the rest of the committee.
In summary, your efforts right now should focus on securing an interview. After all, the fact remains that you can't match into a program without being offered an interview. Once you get to the interview stage, you will have the chance to show them why they need to rank you highly.
Good luck to you,
Samir Desai, MD
Assistant Professor of Medicine
Baylor College of Medicine
As you have shared more information about yourself with us, it has become clear to me that you have performed admirably in medical school. For that, you should certainly be congratulated.
Just remember that the USMLE step 1 score is just one factor, not the only factor IM residency program directors find useful in their decision-making process. While some programs do use a certain USMLE score as a cutoff, many others do not. I certainly hope that UCSF and Harvard are in the latter group. Of course, unless someone in the know responds to this discussion, it will be difficult to say one way or the other.
Although your IM director mentioned that these programs would not even look at your application, I certainly wouldn't let that stop you from an all out effort to secure a position at these programs. You should ask yourself why the IM director made such a statement. Does he or she have some specific information to base such a statement on? It's not common for residency programs to share their screening criteria (at least the specifics) with other programs.
Lara also makes a good point. There are many other residency programs in these two cities that are well regarded. Having said that, at this point in time, you seem to have your heart set on one of these two programs so we should focus our efforts on maximizing your chances to obtain a position there.
I believe you should take things one step at a time. At this point, your goal is to secure an interview. To secure an interview, program directors will look at your board score, third-year clerkship evaluations, Dean's letter, letters of recommendation, and personal statements. You should do everything you can to strengthen these components of your applications.
A lot can be accomplished in the next four to five months before you send out your applications. Make inquiries at your medical school - seek out faculty who used to be on staff at Harvard or UCSF as well as those who are prominent figures in their field. Consider doing a rotation with one of them to help you secure an excellent letter of recommendation. As I mentioned in my previous post, a phone call from one of these individuals on your behalf can do wonders for an application. Don't underestimate the power of connections.
You can, of course, do an away rotation at UCSF or Harvard. If you choose to do so, you need to get started early because spots fill up quickly. With some research, you may be able to find out who is on the residency selection committee at these institutions. Perhaps you can arrange to do a rotation under the supervision of one of these faculty members. If your performance is impressive, believe me, the attending will share that with the rest of the committee.
In summary, your efforts right now should focus on securing an interview. After all, the fact remains that you can't match into a program without being offered an interview. Once you get to the interview stage, you will have the chance to show them why they need to rank you highly.
Good luck to you,
Samir Desai, MD
Assistant Professor of Medicine
Baylor College of Medicine
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Since the website is in its infancy, there have been some growing pains. At the moment, it is best viewed via Internet explorer but may be static if older explorer browsers or netscape is used. Over the next few weeks, this should cease to be an issue and the site should be compatible with any browser.
On the site, you will find information about clerkships, the match, and much more. The goal is to provide students with the tools needed to tackle the challenges of medical school. This is information that I wish had been available to me when I was a medical student. It complements what you can find at other great sites such as SDN. The content is developed by a team of attendings, residents, and students who are part of the MD2B editorial advisory board.
My apologies for the difficulties accessing the site but we're working to rectify the situation. We certainly would appreciate any feedback that you all have on the site and hope that you find it useful.
Samir Desai, MD
Assistant Professor of Medicine
Baylor College of Medicine
On the site, you will find information about clerkships, the match, and much more. The goal is to provide students with the tools needed to tackle the challenges of medical school. This is information that I wish had been available to me when I was a medical student. It complements what you can find at other great sites such as SDN. The content is developed by a team of attendings, residents, and students who are part of the MD2B editorial advisory board.
My apologies for the difficulties accessing the site but we're working to rectify the situation. We certainly would appreciate any feedback that you all have on the site and hope that you find it useful.
Samir Desai, MD
Assistant Professor of Medicine
Baylor College of Medicine
I am an MDPHD student. i finished my phd a month or so before boards. what do you think my chances are for internal medicine at Harvard with a step 1 of 228. I know its kinda low and im loosing hope. if anyone with a similar profile replies i would really appreciate it.
thanks and good luck to all...
thanks and good luck to all...
