Bottom Quartile Student Wanting to do General Surgery. WAMC?

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Eyeh8bullies

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OMS3 here. So I didn't expect this... but I love the OR. I really really want to do surgery at this point, but who knows, it may change, but I doubt it.

Step 1: 23X; COMLEX 1: 55X

Obviously, I'm only interested in categorical positions.

I read and understood that NRMP data is out there for osteopathic students. For someone with my step score, the match rate for ACGME is ~72% right now, which is very discouraging (isn't it risky?). But less than <50% chance for someone with my COMLEX score. However, with the merger happening, idk whether it hurts/improves my chances. So any input would be greatly appreciated! Especially for those who recently matched.

Also, I have another red flag in that I am in the bottom quartile in my preclinical class.... How much will this affect me?

And ultimately my question is this: what are my chances?

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Your chances are pretty solid w/ that USMLE score in comparison to someone w/ 700+ Comlex and no USMLE.

Goals from here to maximize your chances are to do a Sub-I in surgery to get a solid LOR, 3-4 more great LORs, 240+ on Step 2, and 4-6 away rotations during 4th year.

I’m at a teaching hospital and every 4th yr DO student who wants GS is doing about 4 away surgical rotations.

If you love surgery, then do surgery. Your stats are solid. Nobody gives a crap about preclinical grades except gunners who are stuck still in premed mode with either no USMLE or a mediocre Step 1. It’s comical bc they are now trying to compensate for their crappy board scores w/ volunteer hrs during 3rd yr.
 
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your stats won't be the barrier, it's just surgery is traditionally a hard specialty for DOs. So in addition to the post above (LOR, aways, good step 2 etc.), I'd also consider applying to the previously AOA programs as well, yes they may be smaller, but hey they know DOs.
 
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You did decentbon step. Should have a chance. Agree with black coffee. Lol @ people who do bad on step then think clubs and uhhh volunteering matter to residency directors. Can’t pad a bad board score for competitive stuff
 
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Thank you everyone! I noticed that even people with 240-250 the percentage jumps up to only 80%, suggesting that the bigger barrier is the fact that I am a DO.

So to sum up:
Do well on step 2
Do well clinical and get good LOR
Do several sub i
Apply broadly, and include the former AOA accredited (now acgme accredited) programs

If I do these, I have a decent shot at matching.

If anyone else has differing opinions, please post and let me know!
 
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If anyone else has differing opinions, please post and let me know!
Try to get a case study or something. It will probably not be what makes or breaks your application, but it will be seen positively and a topic for interview conversations
 
Also, interested in this topic. I had mid 230s.
 
Thank you everyone! I noticed that even people with 240-250 the percentage jumps up to only 80%, suggesting that the bigger barrier is the fact that I am a DO.

So to sum up:
Do well on step 2
Do well clinical and get good LOR
Do several sub i
Apply broadly, and include the former AOA accredited (now acgme accredited) programs

If I do these, I have a decent shot at matching.

If anyone else has differing opinions, please post and let me know!

Good summary.

Recommend having a backup plan also. Its better to have one and not need it than to not have one. Doesn't mean you have to apply to a bunch of places in a different specialty, just have something planned.

Also, interested in this topic. I had mid 230s.

Also interested with 230 step but <500 COMLEX

Same rules apply for you two. Low COMLEX generally is not a big deal seeing as how you're applying mainly ACGME. Just apply broadly as above.
 
Good summary.

Recommend having a backup plan also. Its better to have one and not need it than to not have one. Doesn't mean you have to apply to a bunch of places in a different specialty, just have something planned.





Same rules apply for you two. Low COMLEX generally is not a big deal seeing as how you're applying mainly ACGME. Just apply broadly as above.


Can you specify what you mean by backup plan? I feel like the only true backup plan for the plan/summary I outlined above is... applying to another specialty? I'm a little confused. I was hoping that all the former AOA programs were a "back up" plan.
 
Try to get a case study or something. It will probably not be what makes or breaks your application, but it will be seen positively and a topic for interview conversations

Funny thing - I have a pending case report and I got added to a surgery related research project recently! So excited!
 
Can you specify what you mean by backup plan? I feel like the only true backup plan for the plan/summary I outlined above is... applying to another specialty? I'm a little confused. I was hoping that all the former AOA programs were a "back up" plan.

Having a plan in and of itself is beneficial. I knew a lot of people that went in without understanding the SOAP, how it worked, what the schedule is, etc., without having an idea of what they were willing to settle into, etc.

Obviously having a backup specialty is a good option, but at very least, you should know what specialties that commonly end up in the SOAP you'd be willing to select, what order of preference you have, how you're going to apply, etc. I.e. make a plan in case things don't work out. Bonus points if you are able to easily adjust your personal statement to other specialties quickly.

If all that stuff is already decided before the SOAP, then that's time you can better cater your app to the programs in the SOAP. You basically have 3-4 hrs between finding out whether you matched and having programs reviewing your "new" app. Not really a lot of time to do soul-searching, come to terms with it, refine your app, AND research programs. There are also only 45 apps that you can submit total across all 3 rounds, and there are usually 100s of programs that are unfilled.
 
Try to get a case study or something. It will probably not be what makes or breaks your application, but it will be seen positively and a topic for interview conversations

Is there a reputable resource or guide online on how to to a case study/report? My school doesn't have many clinical opportunities, so I'd have to set it up myself, and don't have any prior clinical research experience.
 
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Is there a reputable resource or guide online on how to to a case study/report? My school doesn't have many clinical opportunities, so I'd have to set it up myself, and don't have any prior clinical research experience.
Every journal has a guideline of how they want their articles formatted. If you are writing a case report, you should have an attending who is guiding you on this and will serve as a co-author
 
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Last year DOs had a 50% match rate for GS overall.

Now must keep in mind that includes every applicant, some (many?) of whom had lower than average step 1 scores and perhaps even no step 1 scores.
Therefore the actual odds for you specifically could easily be considered higher than average, hopefully 65-70% match odds.

The data reported from ACGME needs to be read in fine print as well - they only show the median 50% matching data. And I do not believe they have all data (board scores) from all applicants either.

Apply intelligently - places repeatedly open to DO through their history. Broadly, with a solid PS.
 
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Last year DOs had a 50% match rate for GS overall.

Now must keep in mind that includes every applicant, some (many?) of whom had lower than average step 1 scores and perhaps even no step 1 scores.
Therefore the actual odds for you specifically could easily be considered higher than average, hopefully 65-70% match odds.

The data reported from ACGME needs to be read in fine print as well - they only show the median 50% matching data. And I do not believe they have all data (board scores) from all applicants either.

Apply intelligently - places repeatedly open to DO through their history. Broadly, with a solid PS.

Yeah it looks like once you break 230 the match rate is pretty consistently about 75% from there on. Agree OP needs to apply BROADLY and be smart about the types of programs they target.
 
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No the biggest question for me is this: should I apply to a second specialty as a back-up? i hate the thought of doing it, but I really do not want to deal with SOAP. As long as I don't apply to the same institutions, should I be fine?

It's not the most comfortable feeling, thinking about applying to another specialty... It's like the feeling of getting soda, when you asked for a water cup.
 
Here is what you should do. Get to know surgeons at a residency you're interested in for sure. Set up an appointment over the weekend, shadow at their place. Let them get to know your face. Show them you're enthusiastic. And after all that, when the right moment comes up, bring up your credentials, including your board scores. Ask them then if these are the kinds of credentials they're looking for. And even if they're not, ask them what it'll take to land a residency with them.

At the end of the day, 3rd and 4th year is all about making connections, even with great board scores. If needing good connections is mandatory, then you're better off focusing on that rather than worrying about all the what-ifs. There's no loss in trying to make connections anyway.

So instead of worrying and pouting about whether or not you need another specialty as backup, you should use this time to bolster yourself and get your face well-known among physicians.
 
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No the biggest question for me is this: should I apply to a second specialty as a back-up? i hate the thought of doing it, but I really do not want to deal with SOAP. As long as I don't apply to the same institutions, should I be fine?

It's not the most comfortable feeling, thinking about applying to another specialty... It's like the feeling of getting soda, when you asked for a water cup.

No point to plan for SOAP with your stats. The diff bet a MD and a DO like you when it comes to surgery is an in house mentor and established connections.

Therefore, you need to pave your own path and make connections in the field of your interest. That means extra time with the local surgeons, possibly some paper and research with nearby surgeons, and annual surgeon meetings/conferences.
 
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No point to plan for SOAP with your stats. The diff bet a MD and a DO like you when it comes to surgery is an in house mentor and established connections.

Therefore, you need to pave your own path and make connections in the field of your interest. That means extra time with the local surgeons, possibly some paper and research with nearby surgeons, and annual surgeon meetings/conferences.

While this may certainly be true, match rate for DOs with OP's Step 1 is still in the 70s. Sure, most people match and I agree that applying broadly and making connections is going to be necessary for getting OP into that 70-some percent group, but still there's a big percentage of people that don't match.

Quite frankly, preparing for a possible SOAP is exactly what a DO applying to something even moderately competitive should do. The last thing you want is not being prepared and something happening.
 
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While this may certainly be true, match rate for DOs with OP's Step 1 is still in the 70s. Sure, most people match and I agree that applying broadly and making connections is going to be necessary for getting OP into that 70-some percent group, but still there's a big percentage of people that don't match.

While I agree completely with your point, I should point out this is only ACGME programs and that the people I know with similar stats unanimously found a spot in the AOA match if that was the route they took. The match rate likely shoots up for that cohort when you include the AOA match. If OP applies broadly to current ACGME programs and all the former AOA programs then they will likely have a chance better than 70%.

Definitely agree everyone needs a contingency plan though.
 
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While I agree completely with your point, I should point out this is only ACGME programs and that the people I know with similar stats unanimously found a spot in the AOA match if that was the route they took. The match rate likely shoots up for that cohort when you include the AOA match. If OP applies broadly to current ACGME programs and all the former AOA programs then they will likely have a chance better than 70%.

Definitely agree everyone needs a contingency plan though.

That's fair. Taking into account former AOA programs certainly will increase OP's chances.
 
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I was told by my advisor to apply to a backup specialty mainly because I am in the bottom quartile of my class for preclinicals... what a bummer, but I'll do what i have to do!
 
Your chances are pretty solid w/ that USMLE score in comparison to someone w/ 700+ Comlex and no USMLE.

Goals from here to maximize your chances are to do a Sub-I in surgery to get a solid LOR, 3-4 more great LORs, 240+ on Step 2, and 4-6 away rotations during 4th year.

I’m at a teaching hospital and every 4th yr DO student who wants GS is doing about 4 away surgical rotations.

If you love surgery, then do surgery. Your stats are solid. Nobody gives a crap about preclinical grades except gunners who are stuck still in premed mode with either no USMLE or a mediocre Step 1. It’s comical bc they are now trying to compensate for their crappy board scores w/ volunteer hrs during 3rd yr.
And network, network, network! Get good LORs from people in the field too. Target programs that have or have had DOs in the past, especially grads from your school.
 
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And network, network, network! Get good LORs from people in the field too. Target programs that have or have had DOs in the past, especially grads from your school.

@Goro what are your 2 cents about applying to a backup specialty due to my preclinical grade? Good advice? bad advice? Just curious since you've been in this business for awhile.
 
@Goro what are your 2 cents about applying to a backup specialty due to my preclinical grade? Good advice? bad advice? Just curious since you've been in this business for awhile.
If you don't land Gen Surg, it won't be due to your pre-clinical grades.

I am a firm believer in having a Plan B, as Gen Surg is, at least for my students, hard to get. Only some 25% of PDs in the field are willing to often rank/interview a DO. 25% refuse to do either.
 
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If you don't land Gen Surg, it won't be due to your pre-clinical grades.

I am a firm believer in having a Plan B, as Gen Surg is, at least for my students, hard to get. Only some 25% of PDs in the field are willing to often rank/interview a DO. 25% refuse to do either.

Thanks for the reply @Goro . Always so wise. At the end of the day, it seems like the fact that I'm a DO will hurt me the most. Also thanks @Black Coffee 24/7 @hallowmann and everyone who posted. Valuable insights and recommendations.

Alrighty people. I think i'll stop typing away at this thread, and get back to doing stuff that will actually help me match into GS. I got the input I needed. But feel free to continue to post your thoughts on this thread - it may help other readers.

Hopefully, in about a year and a half, I'll have good news to share. Until then!
 
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