252, 261, OET, YoG 2016, US IMG, 3 US LOR, applied to 370 IM programs, got 7 interviews, Why?!!!!!!!

[Herobiro]

Appreciate any input!!!

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[Lawpy]

Wait you graduated from school in 2016? That may be a problem

Gonna tag @NotAProgDirector for advice

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

I believe YOG is what's the issue...

 

[GoSpursGo]

Moving to ERAS.

As others have said, YOG is the problem. Surely you realized it would be a problem, given that you applied to 370 programs. The fact that you have received 7 interviews means that, in all likelihood, you will succeed in getting a spot, which is all one can hope for when you're an IMG who graduated 5 years ago.

 

[Herobiro]

Guys .. YOG is less than 5 years ago.. so it shouldn’t be a huge problem..
yes it’s not ideal .. but with these scores, and no visa needed, and applying for just IM ...
guys come-on..

I guess it’s getting insanely impossible for the above average IMGs to match then 😅

I hope someone might think of something other than YoG. Cuz it’s not even past the 5 years cut off!!

 

[Animalcules]

YOG is a huge deal, especially if you haven’t touched a patient since.

LOR may be subpar.

Personal statement may be off putting.

US-IMG is never an advantage.

If you think of the 5 year cut-off as a dichotomous variable, you are mistaken.

 

[mcat_taker]

Guys .. YOG is less than 5 years ago.. so it shouldn’t be a huge problem..
yes it’s not ideal .. but with these scores, and no visa needed, and applying for just IM ...
guys come-on..

I guess it’s getting insanely impossible for the above average IMGs to match then 😅

I hope someone might think of something other than YoG. Cuz it’s not even past the 5 years cut off!!

YOG is certainly a problem. I don’t think you understand how rapidly untrained doctors de-skill and lose knowledge. Residency is fast paced and there’s a reason why some programs only want recent grads because historically they tend to be the most successful.

rather than complaining maybe you should have applied to residency less than 5 years after finishing med school.

 

[Herobiro]

Maybe it was a mistake to share this on SDN.. since it’s mostly not IMG-friendly .. and SDN is known for disrespectful and harsh comments

..................................................

GoSpursGo,

Well .. I know I will get a spot this year but I wanted to know if this low number of interviews is normal or covid has something to do with it or what!

Surely you realize that the YOG thing is a different hidden version of Ageism..But no need to dive into that topic now ...

So, I wasn’t planning on applying to that number of programs .. but I just did it out of trying to be as safe as possible.. thinking more interviews never hurt.. but never expected it to be this way.. I hope others with similar circumstances will share their experiences so we could get a better idea.

............................

Animalcules,

I agree that YOG is a big deal for programs but I don’t think it should be a huge deal in the context of my application..

I have worked with patients in clinics and hospitals since I graduated..

Got complemented for my LoRs and personal statement during the interviews I had ..

yes a US-IMG is not and advantage, but the number of IMG matched is increasing every year to cover the shortage of doctors in the US..

And of course I don’t think of it as dichotomous variables..

......................................

Anyway .. I am sharing my story to get a better understanding of my situation and to help others in the same boat .. get a prospective about how hard it’s getting to secure a residency spot.
Still waiting for a reasonable response ,maybe from someone with similar circumstances..

 

[GoSpursGo]

GoSpursGo,

Well .. I know I will get a spot this year but I wanted to know if this low number of interviews is normal or covid has something to do with it or what!

Surely you realize that the YOG thing is a different hidden version of Ageism..But no need to dive into that topic now ...

So, I wasn’t planning on applying to that number of programs .. but I just did it out of trying to be as safe as possible.. thinking more interviews never hurt.. but never expected it to be this way.. I hope others with similar circumstances will share their experiences so we could get a better idea.

Your stats are great, good for you. YOG is not ageism, it is realistic concern that your skills may have atrophied by being out of clinical practice/training for 5 years. If you have additional experiences during that time that would mitigate this concern then maybe you should share that information with the class.

I'm still not sure exactly what you're complaining about... 7 interviews is great.

 

[Redpancreas]

You’re not going to get the best answers on SDN (in terms of how regular/fair your yield was) as we are primarily American medical graduates. Speak with your own classmates or other IMGs who have been or know people in your situation. From my perspective though with some understanding of the system and how programs recruit, you sat out 4 entire ERAS cycles post graduation. Your scores don’t matter at this point. Additionally, FMG>American IMG because the latter had the option to train in the US and deferred to either save time/avoid competition (but then took 4 extra years). I can understand if you had to sit out 1 to get USCE, or maybe 2 because you wanted to ensure USCE or something got messed up, but then not 3, but 4? The cut off is like 5 years and they say that because it’s the most they’re willing to accept, it’s not an all or nothing cut off but a spectrum of acceptance they’re judging applicants on. Also, you didn’t have to make in roads to find USCE as you likely have residence and people who you can ask locally. You also applied to 300+ programs and had the $ to travel off shore so it wasn’t an issue of funding.

All that being said you have 7 ACGME approved programs willing to have you and you will most likely match Internal Medicine, there are people with your scores who graduated foreign medical school in 2019/20 with 2-3 interviews now.

Some people get 18 interview invites, some have 3. On Match Day, we all get one and that’s where we train. I recently uncovered a brown paper bag with all folders of all the amazing places I’d interviewed at a few years back. I threw them away. They’re not trophies/achievements, they were means to an end I didn’t choose. At the end of the day, you train at 1 place.

I can also understand the 252/261 and feeling like you may not belong at the places that gave you a chance, but that’s actually the case for most IMGs who apply for the American system...and scores don’t mean everything. If you really feel that way though, be ready to work day 1.

 

[Herobiro]

Your stats are great, good for you. YOG is not ageism, it is realistic concern that your skills may have atrophied by being out of clinical practice/training for 5 years. If you have additional experiences during that time that would mitigate this concern then maybe you should share that information with the class.

I'm still not sure exactly what you're complaining about... 7 interviews is great.

I somewhat agree with you although there are other aspects to YOG thing .. but it’s not my intention to discuss here.
As I said, I shared this trying to get better understanding.. my peers with similar or less experience got way more IV .. that’s why alO am a little concerned.
If this is the new normal .. or If I had higher expectations than I should.. it’s good to know.

Thanks you for giving some reassuring words! Stay safe!

 

[Herobiro]

You’re not going to get the best answers on SDN (in terms of how regular/fair your yield was) as we are primarily American medical graduates. Speak with your own classmates or other IMGs who have been or know people in your situation. From my perspective though with some understanding of the system and how programs recruit, you sat out 4 entire ERAS cycles post graduation. Your scores don’t matter at this point. Additionally, FMG>American IMG because the latter had the option to train in the US and deferred to either save time/avoid competition (but then took 4 extra years). I can understand if you had to sit out 1 to get USCE, or maybe 2 because you wanted to ensure USCE or something got messed up, but then not 3, but 4? The cut off is like 5 years and they say that because it’s the most they’re willing to accept, it’s not an all or nothing cut off but a spectrum of acceptance they’re judging applicants on. Also, you didn’t have to make in roads to find USCE as you likely have residence and people who you can ask locally. You also applied to 300+ programs and had the $ to travel off shore so it wasn’t an issue of funding.

All that being said you have 7 ACGME approved programs willing to have you and you will most likely match Internal Medicine, there are people with your scores who graduated foreign medical school in 2019/20 with 2-3 interviews now.

Some people get 18 interview invites, some have 3. On Match Day, we all get one and that’s where we train. I recently uncovered a brown paper bag with all folders of all the amazing places I’d interviewed at a few years back. I threw them away. They’re not trophies/achievements, they were means to an end I didn’t choose. At the end of the day, you train at 1 place.

I can also understand the 252/261 and feeling like you may not belong at the places that gave you a chance, but that’s actually the case for most IMGs who apply for the American system...and scores don’t mean everything. If you really feel that way though, be ready to work day 1.

I really appreciate your honest and realistic response.

Regarding the reasons why I went to school out of the US and waited after .. or the financial situation.. there is a lot to said there and it is far from what u think ..

Don’t get me wrong.. I am happy and proud I made it all the way to this point..
All what I wanted is get prospective regarding how regular/fair my situation is!

but you brought up a good point that may explain how the programs thought of my application ..

maybe it’s good for other IMGs to know that this is the situation after 4 year of graduation... Not 6 or 8 years .. so everyone can plan ahead and have realistic expectations.
It seems that’s this this the new normal then 😅 I guess.

Thanks for your reassuring words at the end! Stay safe!

 

[GoSpursGo]

Let's please try to keep the discussion civil. Telling people they're going to be a terrible doctor or being overly condescending doesn't help anyone.

I'm not sure that there is anywhere else to take this discussion if the OP doesn't want to provide additional information, but the thread will be closed if insults keep getting sent back and forth.

 

[Redpancreas]

I really appreciate your honest and realistic response.

Regarding the reasons why I went to school out of the US and waited after .. or the financial situation.. there is a lot to said there and it is far from what u think ..

Don’t get me wrong.. I am happy and proud I made it all the way to this point..
All what I wanted is get prospective regarding how regular/fair my situation is!

but you brought up a good point that may explain how the programs thought of my application ..

maybe it’s good for other IMGs to know that this is the situation after 4 year of graduation... Not 6 or 8 years .. so everyone can plan ahead and have realistic expectations.
It seems that’s this this the new normal then 😅 I guess.

Thanks for your reassuring words at the end! Stay safe!

Yeah, thank you! You as well! Two points to your response.

1.) Programs aren't truly looking at your application with the aforementioned presumptions/feelings. That was more my editorializing and trying to assess fairness given my knowledge of residency recruitment/admissions. They have filters not limited to: YOG<X years, First Time Applicant, US Medical Graduate, etc. It's really the filters that did you in. I'm assuming the (1) YOG>X yr combined with (2) Non-US Medical Graduate combination got you filtered out at most places. No one's got the time to do a holistic review on every single candidate. They save that for when they narrow it down to a reasonable number. Program Directors are not interested in digging for untapped potential, they're risk averse and looking for the safest applicants with proven metrics.

2.) You do not need to take on the burden on educating other IMGs. All the ones I know are well aware of the urgency and are simultaneously studying for the USMLE in medical school (many schools are actually starting to teach to it and many form study groups to help each other out.). They then knock out Step 1, 2, and 3 q3 months at a time after they graduate while doing USCE simultaneously (usually in NYC) but plenty find opportunities in Miami, Philadelphia, Cleveland, Detroit (other hot zones) so if they graduated May 2016, they've got more than enough time ready for the ERAS 2017-2018 cycle. Some try to do it simultaneously like a AMG and make it happen. They know that YOG is a thing and most mention it in their one-liner when asking someone to prognosticate their candidacy.

I know you don't want to discuss the situation. There are lots of unfortunate situations. The system's not perfect and we have to settle for what it is and take what we get and hope that any strengths we have present themselves down the road somehow, someway.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

It's hard to answer your question, because there are so many variables at play.

You mentioned on an earlier thread that you had incorrectly answered the ERAS question about ability to work. You fixed it relatively quickly, so hopefully this did not play much of a role. Personally I think the question on ERAS is silly - if you couldn't do the job, why apply?

School plays a role. Some programs have more experience with some schools. If you're coming from a less-well-known school, that might play a role. Your scores are great, but it's possible that some programs have no experience with your school and instead decide to focus on schools from which they have had students in the past.

The grad delay may also be playing a role. Often mentioned on SDN is the "5 year cutoff". Each program can make their own cut off. But realistically, its more of a gradient than a cutoff -- programs that set a cut off of 5 years won't consider those with 6+, but they may still be less inclined to take those with a 4 year gap. I also agree that it may depend what you've done in the gap -- clinical work is probably preferred in some programs.

Lack of US experience might be an issue. You haven't mentioned how much of it you have had during your training. Also possible that you were initially interested in a different field than IM -- if you had research, rotations in something else, programs might feel you just wouldn't be happy.

It's also possible that you may just not "fit" with programs. Let's say you did lots of research in the gap. You'd have great scores, and great research. It's possible that Univ programs might decline to interview you because of the gap/unknown school. And then community programs might decline due to too much research / scores too good - they are worried you're likely to go somewhere else. This sucks -- seems like you just can't win and slip through the cracks.

Normally, I'd say that it's possible that your applications didn't cover a broad enough array of programs. Honestly that seems impossible with 370 of them. Even if you applied to the top 100 places (however that's measured), you'd still have 270 applications.

I hear your frustration. The gap may have been unavoidable due to your personal issues. Attending a US school similar. You expected a better yield. The good news here (already mentioned) is that your chance of matching with those stats and 7 interviews is quite good. With that, your career takes off. Best of luck.

 

[Herobiro]

It's hard to answer your question, because there are so many variables at play.

You mentioned on an earlier thread that you had incorrectly answered the ERAS question about ability to work. You fixed it relatively quickly, so hopefully this did not play much of a role. Personally I think the question on ERAS is silly - if you couldn't do the job, why apply?

School plays a role. Some programs have more experience with some schools. If you're coming from a less-well-known school, that might play a role. Your scores are great, but it's possible that some programs have no experience with your school and instead decide to focus on schools from which they have had students in the past.

The grad delay may also be playing a role. Often mentioned on SDN is the "5 year cutoff". Each program can make their own cut off. But realistically, its more of a gradient than a cutoff -- programs that set a cut off of 5 years won't consider those with 6+, but they may still be less inclined to take those with a 4 year gap. I also agree that it may depend what you've done in the gap -- clinical work is probably preferred in some programs.

Lack of US experience might be an issue. You haven't mentioned how much of it you have had during your training. Also possible that you were initially interested in a different field than IM -- if you had research, rotations in something else, programs might feel you just wouldn't be happy.

It's also possible that you may just not "fit" with programs. Let's say you did lots of research in the gap. You'd have great scores, and great research. It's possible that Univ programs might decline to interview you because of the gap/unknown school. And then community programs might decline due to too much research / scores too good - they are worried you're likely to go somewhere else. This sucks -- seems like you just can't win and slip through the cracks.

Normally, I'd say that it's possible that your applications didn't cover a broad enough array of programs. Honestly that seems impossible with 370 of them. Even if you applied to the top 100 places (however that's measured), you'd still have 270 applications.

I hear your frustration. The gap may have been unavoidable due to your personal issues. Attending a US school similar. You expected a better yield. The good news here (already mentioned) is that your chance of matching with those stats and 7 interviews is quite good. With that, your career takes off. Best of luck.

Your response is really comprehensive ... u covered multiple interesting points ..
thank you for being honest and sincere! And hopefully it’s going to work out at the end 😅.

 

[Herobiro]

Yeah, thank you! You as well! Two points to your response.

1.) Programs aren't truly looking at your application with the aforementioned presumptions/feelings. That was more my editorializing and trying to assess fairness given my knowledge of residency recruitment/admissions. They have filters not limited to: YOG<X years, First Time Applicant, US Medical Graduate, etc. It's really the filters that did you in. I'm assuming the (1) YOG>X yr combined with (2) Non-US Medical Graduate combination got you filtered out at most places. No one's got the time to do a holistic review on every single candidate. They save that for when they narrow it down to a reasonable number. Program Directors are not interested in digging for untapped potential, they're risk averse and looking for the safest applicants with proven metrics.

2.) You do not need to take on the burden on educating other IMGs. All the ones I know are well aware of the urgency and are simultaneously studying for the USMLE in medical school (many schools are actually starting to teach to it and many form study groups to help each other out.). They then knock out Step 1, 2, and 3 q3 months at a time after they graduate while doing USCE simultaneously (usually in NYC) but plenty find opportunities in Miami, Philadelphia, Cleveland, Detroit (other hot zones) so if they graduated May 2016, they've got more than enough time ready for the ERAS 2017-2018 cycle. Some try to do it simultaneously like a AMG and make it happen. They know that YOG is a thing and most mention it in their one-liner when asking someone to prognosticate their candidacy.

I know you don't want to discuss the situation. There are lots of unfortunate situations. The system's not perfect and we have to settle for what it is and take what we get and hope that any strengths we have present themselves down the road somehow, someway.

Everyone should find a mentor like you!
Thanks again for your honest input...

 

[rokshana]

Guys .. YOG is less than 5 years ago.. so it shouldn’t be a huge problem..
yes it’s not ideal .. but with these scores, and no visa needed, and applying for just IM ...
guys come-on..

I guess it’s getting insanely impossible for the above average IMGs to match then 😅

I hope someone might think of something other than YoG. Cuz it’s not even past the 5 years cut off!!

Those scores aren’t really that above average ...YOG isn’t this year and IMG...red flags.

though have to admit even just a 5% return would have gotten you a decent number of interviews...you sure your LoRs were good? Were you missing a chair letter?
What have you been doing for the last 4 years? They may have wanted to see something productive.

did you contact the programs you didn’t hear from or did you get rejections from all the others?
After the match if you don’t match , you may want to contact a PD to have th go over your application to see where you have issues.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Somewhat off topic, but chair letters are not that helpful for IMG or DO candidates, in general. In IM, chair letters are really "department letters", and are a summary of your performance in all IM rotations. They are somewhat like a mini-MSPE focusing on your IM rotations only. IMG and DO candidates commonly have a chair letter (because IM programs say you should have one) and they are usually useless - these schools just have the chair write a letter which often is not helpful as the chair hasn't worked with you.

My favorite is St. George's. Their chair letter is exactly the same for every candidate. Form letter. No difference, at all, for anyone. That's the pure definition of useless.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Somewhat off topic, but chair letters are not that helpful for IMG or DO candidates, in general. In IM, chair letters are really "department letters", and are a summary of your performance in all IM rotations. They are somewhat like a mini-MSPE focusing on your IM rotations only. IMG and DO candidates commonly have a chair letter (because IM programs say you should have one) and they are usually useless - these schools just have the chair write a letter which often is not helpful as the chair hasn't worked with you.

My favorite is St. George's. Their chair letter is exactly the same for every candidate. Form letter. No difference, at all, for anyone. That's the pure definition of useless.

Yea but for my DO school sometimes you can actually work with the person who is the “chair” and the person who is the chair reviews your IM performance to write the letter...

 

[GoSpursGo]

Yea but for my DO school sometimes you can actually work with the person who is the “chair” and the person who is the chair reviews your IM performance to write the letter...

So that's just called a "letter of recommendation."

 

[valuat]

@Herobiro

So, did you match? I hope so!!!!

 

[Herobiro]

Those scores aren’t really that above average ...YOG isn’t this year and IMG...red flags.

though have to admit even just a 5% return would have gotten you a decent number of interviews...you sure your LoRs were good? Were you missing a chair letter?
What have you been doing for the last 4 years? They may have wanted to see something productive.

did you contact the programs you didn’t hear from or did you get rejections from all the others?
After the match if you don’t match , you may want to contact a PD to have th go over your application to see where you have issues.

thank u for ur response , the graph says these scores are above average not me.

Thank you for acknowledging that the response percentage was very low at least.

different hands-on positions, working with patients in a clinic and a hospital allover the four years, cuz I needed money.

Got compliments on my LORS in my IV.

As an IMG, I don't have the luxury of having a PD or even a faculty member go over my application.

I matched at a very good program in CA which was my first choice.

4 of the 7 IV were University programs... So I am guessing that what "Notaprogramdirector" mentioned was correct, regarding that most community program thought I would go for a university program.

one more thing that someone mentioned to me... most IMGs match in the east coast, so programs may have preferred IMGs located in the east coast rather than someone who needs to relocate from the west coast.

 

[Herobiro]

lastly ,,, to all who are in my situation .. I was clearly so stressed when I posted this thread ,,
In hard times when u need support ,, go for your trusted circle of people who know u and what you went through.. they will be your best support...
please don't wait for a good response here at SDN... I got insulted and yet the admins sent me a warning just for responding that this is not the way a good doctor should behave... and the smallest insult when u r in that situation could be really hard on you ..
I am not trying to shame SDN as much as I am trying to protect anyone in my situation from facing what I faced at that time.
Keep trying and trust that circumstances are going to align in your favor somehow sometime.

 

[Herobiro]

@Herobiro

So, did you match? I hope so!!!!

Thank you!
I matched at a very good program in CA which was my first choice.

 

[Animalcules]

Honestly, I would dial back the attitude before the start of residency. It won’t go over well.

This is not relevant for your situation, but you managed to rub several people that have never met you the wrong way, so this could be a career determining factor for fellowship interviews and day to day life as a resident.

This is friendly feedback, not an attack on your person. Take it or leave it.

Congrats on matching!