3 more Osteopathic schools opening

[(nicedream)]

Programs really shouldn't come online until there are graduates to fill the. And if new residencis get off the ground without graduates to fill them they will fold. Just my opinion.

Exactly. You're all jumping the gun, relax.

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[Thousandth]

Well, to be fair, if a DO student matches into an AOA residency, then they are automatically taken out of the ACGME match and it is counted as an 'unmatched'---that's what accounts for the 1/3 unmatched students. 1/3 of DO students aren't walking around unmatched---yet!

Are you sure about that? I do know that DO's who match are pulled from the MD match, but this means that they are not allowed to participate. If this is so then wouldnt the NRMP just pull them prior to running the match process and not use them in thier reported numbers at the end?

 

[Thousandth]

I have an issue with your numbers. 900 new graduates from 3-4 schools means 225-300 students per class. Most of the schools have clases in the 150-180 range and the new schools will most likely start with smaller class sizes and grow the size over 3-4 years.

Of the 20 schools 8 have 200+ class sizes and 2 more are close to that number. I was pushing the envelope for effect as well, but I am not hugely far off.

Also, I know of several new residencies in the works, as well as exsiting residencies that are looking to become dual-accredited and add slots. Programs really shouldn't come online until there are graduates to fill the. And if new residencis get off the ground without graduates to fill them they will fold. Just my opinion.

These programs need to be in areas outside of the current locations and they need to be in more specialties other than primary care. These two issues are what is hurting the AOA match the worst.

 

[NonTradMed]

Are you sure about that? I do know that DO's who match are pulled from the MD match, but this means that they are not allowed to participate. If this is so then wouldnt the NRMP just pull them prior to running the match process and not use them in thier reported numbers at the end?

Because that's how they compile the numbers, osteopaths that don't match into their system are counted as 'nonmatches'. I don't know why they are counted as such. Why does it matter? It's not really 'their' students that are not matching, and having to go through and count the DO students that matched in the AOA matches is EXTRA WORK (you know, like they'd have to communicate with the AOA match and compare students to see which student was pulled because of a match from AOA etc). Do a search, there's plenty of threads that has mentioned this before (especially in the osteo and residency forums).

For what its worth, all the schools that I've interviewed at, even the ones with average stats, has talked about their 90+% match rate with single digit scramble rate difference (i.e 90-95% get their first or second choice etc). The difference I saw between allo and osteo matches is that the osteo schools tend to do more primary care and end up in community hospitals and more allo students specialize.

 

[beastmaster]

You really have no idea what you are talking about do you?

The fact of the matter is that 3-4 new DO schools will produce close to 900 new grads a year. Now since you like facts so much try these on. 1) If you forget about having a choice of specialty and location and you had every single DO stundent currently graduating go into a DO program there will be fully one THIRD of that class wihtout a residency position. Again this is just body filling a spot and not saying that you want X residency.
2) Of the 1500 DO's who applied to the ACGME match this year a THIRD of them did not match. Thats 500 people! I wonder what an additional 900 would do?
3) MD schools are increasing there student output by 10-15% over the next several years. MD's go into MD residencies. More MD's mean less ACMGE slots for everyone who is not a graduate of a US MD school.
...
Do some homework before making blanket statements.

As several have pointed out, you yourself are wrong. 900? None of the 3 schools have a proposed class size above 200. Two have proposed 100, I believe. So in terms of numbers you're off by a factor of two. So much for "facts."

As for MD's being guaranteed spots just because they are MDs, absurd. If demand far exceeds supply of desired residency slots these new MDs will simply not match.

But as for your last foolish statement, every hospital in America deciding to close their doors to training DOs, please describe to me in detail a hypothetical set of circumstances, and who this direct executive order would come from, that would force all of these hospitals, with a backbone of staff and residency directors who are themselves DOs, to suddenly and with consideration of legal and economic ramification execute this order. Please, wise one, elaborate on this. Because you simply look foolish for suggesting that 300 new DOs would break the back of a profession that developed from scratch into what it is now, and then to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.

 

[Thousandth]

As several have pointed out, you yourself are wrong. 900? None of the 3 schools have a proposed class size above 200. Two have proposed 100, I believe. So in terms of numbers you're off by a factor of two. So much for "facts."

I like how you zero in on one exageration. But as it has been said before, there are more than 3 new schools in the pipeline.

As for MD's being guaranteed spots just because they are MDs, absurd. If demand far exceeds supply of desired residency slots these new MDs will simply not match.

To restat, MD schools are increasing there enrollment 15%. DO schools are opening up. This means more docs for a slowly increasing number of residencies. I am saying that if things become tight for MD students matching then they are well within their power to a) favor MD's b) DIS-allow DO's from participating!

But as for your last foolish statement, every hospital in America deciding to close their doors to training DOs, please describe to me in detail a hypothetical set of circumstances, and who this direct executive order would come from, that would force all of these hospitals, with a backbone of staff and residency directors who are themselves DOs, to suddenly and with consideration of legal and economic ramification execute this order. Please, wise one, elaborate on this. Because you simply look foolish for suggesting that 300 new DOs would break the back of a profession that developed from scratch into what it is now, and then to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.

Foolish would be attributing a coment not made by someone to that person. I never said EVERY hospital in the US. There are still DO residencies. This is what the profession as a whole would have to fall back on.

Look the major point here is that the AOA needs to plan for the worst and hope for the best. Right now all it is doing is hoping for the best with very little foresight.

 

[Thousandth]

Because that's how they compile the numbers, osteopaths that don't match into their system are counted as 'nonmatches'. I don't know why they are counted as such. Why does it matter? It's not really 'their' students that are not matching, and having to go through and count the DO students that matched in the AOA matches is EXTRA WORK (you know, like they'd have to communicate with the AOA match and compare students to see which student was pulled because of a match from AOA etc). Do a search, there's plenty of threads that has mentioned this before (especially in the osteo and residency forums).

I dont see how that reasoning makes sense. If you matched to a DO residency you are pulled by the system. Then they know you matched to a DO program. Where is the extra work. Not arguing with you, just saying that if thats really the way it happens it makes no sense.

 

[Echinoidea]

Obviously, allopathic residencies are not going to disallow DO's overnight based on some mandate from above. What I think we're all worried about is a decrease in the acceptance and hospitality towards DOs secondary to an increased graduating physician pool.

I just don't expect an allopathic residency director to deny spots to MDs in order to accomodate the swelling number of osteopathic students.

 

[beastmaster]

What I think we're all worried about is a decrease in the acceptance and hospitality towards DOs secondary to an increased graduating physician pool.

But there is no historical evidence to suggest this. Over the last several decades the opposite has happened, as new DO schools opened up and the population of graduating DOs swelled, more have penetrated the allopathic world and have even made the idea of a combined match discussable. If there were only 2 DO schools right now instread of 20, then perhaps I can envision a mandate to close the doors to DOs -- no one would feel the effect of it. With 25? Even the thought of it could send unhealthy ripples through the healthcare world that could do very serious damage, but that's why only we med students are naive enough to even think about it.

 

[NonTradMed]

I dont see how that reasoning makes sense. If you matched to a DO residency you are pulled by the system. Then they know you matched to a DO program. Where is the extra work. Not arguing with you, just saying that if thats really the way it happens it makes no sense.

They just label people who were pulled from the system 'unmatched', like they count anyone who didn't match into their system as unmatched for whatever reason. Why should they have to breakdown the reasons for not matching? It seems like if I was a monopolistic organization, it would be far easier to say anyone who didn't match as unmatched regardless of their success in the 'other' match system, rather than say 'ok, this person matched into AOA, this person didn't match into AOA or our match, this person matched into our match etc'.

The two match systems are somewhat separate from each other, hence the nonsensical factor of having two different matches one after another. It would take extra work to set up a that communication network between the two systems---and for what benefit? So we get to service the 15% DO students and tell them this is how many of you people that got into the AOA? It's extra legwork for a constituent that does not serves their primary constituent (MD students).

EDIT: Of course, if 1/3 of DO students AREN'T matching at all, then there should be a lot of more unemployed, unlicensed DO students around, right? I have seen no indication of any DO school that has anything less than an 90%+ match success....so either I just got lucky with my schools with their high match rate, or some schools are only managing 50% match rate which I have not heard of from any school.

 

[ProZackMI]

Check out the AOA blog at feed://www.do-online.osteotech.org/blog/xml-rss2.php

Thoughts? Comments? It's being discussed in the pre-DO forum, but I wanted to see what my fellow matriculated DO students thought. I'm kind of at a loss right now. When Prez. Shettle came to visit, I got the impression that the huge expansion was over and that the number was going to stabilize. Guess not. The joke is on us.

I really feel apprehensive about this. I don't think it bodes well at all for the future of our profession.

I think it's great. Even though I'm an MD, I only see DOs for my own tx. I think more osteo med schools is a good thing. More physicians who are educated here in the US (which means less dependence on FMGs) and more physicians (both primary care and specialists) who will treat patients holistically.

Personally, I love you guys. First rate health care with compassion and kindness. I hate to say it, but you don't get that too often with all tx.

The more DOs out there, the better off we will be!!!

 

[futuredo32]

I think it's great. Even though I'm an MD, I only see DOs for my own tx. I think more osteo med schools is a good thing. More physicians who are educated here in the US (which means less dependence on FMGs) and more physicians (both primary care and specialists) who will treat patients holistically.

Personally, I love you guys. First rate health care with compassion and kindness. I hate to say it, but you don't get that too often with all tx.

The more DOs out there, the better off we will be!!!

That's so awesome to hear such D.O. positive comments!
I agree with the more D.O.'s the better sentiment, but they need to come with new osteopathic residencies.

 

[Taus]

Well not necessarily more residency spots (as there are tons unfilled each year)......but maybe MOVING those consistantly unfilled residencies to DESIREABLE LOCATIONS.....if that was feasible I think it would solve many problems....keep in mind this is all hypothetical...

 

[(nicedream)]

You can't just plunk new residencies down in places with no history of medical education and no teaching hospitals and have them be quality programs. Allopathic residencies are at long-established teaching hospitals, some university, some university-affiliated community programs, with experienced faculty, large patient volume, and educational infrastructure that facilitates a high quality learning experience.
As it is, many existing osteopathic programs are at small community hospitals with little experience in resident education and limited pathology - if you were to move programs to new, desirable locations (FL/CA, wherever) they would have to be at community hospitals with likely no history of teaching whatsoever. The large teaching hospitals are all affiliated with allopathic schools - that, to me, is the main obstacle to widespread quality osteopathic GME.
If high quality GME is to be instituted, it would necessitate the building of large academic hospitals and recruitment of experienced educators in every field. The prospect is daunting.

 

[Taus]

Agreed...I guess dual-accreditation (as is done in many internships/TY years) being done to residencies would be one of the only plausible way to accomplish the spreading out of the Osteo GME....

I'm assuming that would require the transferring of willing DO PD's from consistantly unfilled programs to new residencies at established locations....and the cooperation bw AMA/AOA (unlikely on the AOA side)....I'm sure the AMA would love the offer of more teaching faculty for their residents from our side (ie helping them while helping ourselves....but regardless....this is a very unlikely situation...

 

[DrBowtie]

But there is no historical evidence to suggest this. Over the last several decades the opposite has happened, as new DO schools opened up and the population of graduating DOs swelled, more have penetrated the allopathic world and have even made the idea of a combined match discussable. If there were only 2 DO schools right now instread of 20, then perhaps I can envision a mandate to close the doors to DOs -- no one would feel the effect of it. With 25? Even the thought of it could send unhealthy ripples through the healthcare world that could do very serious damage, but that's why only we med students are naive enough to even think about it.

You are correct but if there are 15% more MD grads, they will only be filling those Allo residencies thus forcing some FMGs and DOs to less desirable spots or out completely.

It would be bad business for the AMA not to have all of its allo graduates be able to get a residency. I could see a guideline being put in place if the competition gets too stiff to take US MDs over FMGs or DOs. I'm not saying 3 new schools will do that but if the expansion rate persists then it might.

 

[realmdo]

Actually, schools have plenty of pull. See, there is something called the ACGME which regulates MD schools. And unlike your AOA, the ACGME actually tries to make sure that MD graduates can get into MD residency programs-- ie, they won't allow MD schools to open unless they can prove that they have adequate basic science, research, clinical experiences at the site, and that their graduates will be able to match into an MD residency.

And guess who the directors of virtually all these residency programs are-- MDs who also depend on the ACGME for accreditation (just like the med schools, along with LCME). And ironically, since DOs will not allow MDs to match into DO residencies can you guess the only place MDs can go-- MD residencies. So obviously since both entities are controlled by the same group and they dont want to have MDs get squeezed out of MD spots. So who gets kicked out? IMGs, FMGs, and DOs. And there need not be an official edict saying DOs cannot get in, programs just will stop accepting them because they have "plenty of qualified applicants" from their home program or applying with an MD.

Also I think its hilarious that you lack the mental ability to realize that an unchanging supply of residencies plus an increase in medical students means someone is going to get left out. Perhaps you should go back and review your elementary school arithmetic and come back in a few hours once you've wrapped your head around this quasi-Fermat's Last Theorem problem.

Increasing the dually credited programs will solve the problems. b/c many slots can't be filled by US MD anyway. We've already seen this trend in primary care field. Who knows what's going to happen in other specialties in the future.

 

[Plinko]

Where is the new school in Texas going to be? Who is it affiliated with?

It is rumored to be the University of Texas-El Paso, School of Medicine. It would be an MD school. I'm sure if the funding went through or not.

 

[Bill_Brasky]

When the AOA Prez came to WVSOM the reason, as I understood it, for all the new osteopathic schools opening up is simple, the coming physician shortage. With the end of the baby boomers, that most selfish of generations, comes a huge demand for more doctors. Estimates show that MD schools will not be able to take up the demand, so that will leave the US medical system two options: either rely on DOs or drastically lower the standards for taking international docs. Even the most DO-hating MDs I think would say better the devil you know than the devil you don't, and take DOs (hopefully). The AOA is trying to make sure that the DO option will be numerically valid.

-Bill Brasky

"Third: Did you know Bill Brasky is the godfather of my son?

Fourth: Bill Brasky?

First: He's a big fella!

Second: Oh yeah, he's a big guy! Goes about 6'7", 385.

Third: Well, anyway.. he shows up at the church in his golf pants, caked in mud. Well, ol' Bill Brasky pushes the priest aside and says, "I'll baptize that piece of calamari!" Then he pours Scotch all over my baby son and says, "There! You're baptized!"

Fourth: And your son is blind to this day!

First: Yeah, he makes brooms somewhere in Georgia, doesn't he?

Third: I have no idea. [ pause ] To Bill Brasky!

Together: Bill Brasky!!"

 

[Bill_Brasky]

There will be a new MD school in Texas, it will be an expansion of the Texas Tech system, making the Texas Tech facilities there their own medical school. The campus is already being completed, so the money came through.

-Bill Brasky
"Third: Did you know Bill Brasky is the godfather of my son?

Fourth: Bill Brasky?

First: He's a big fella!

Second: Oh yeah, he's a big guy! Goes about 6'7", 385.

Third: Well, anyway.. he shows up at the church in his golf pants, caked in mud. Well, ol' Bill Brasky pushes the priest aside and says, "I'll baptize that piece of calamari!" Then he pours Scotch all over my baby son and says, "There! You're baptized!"

Fourth: And your son is blind to this day!

First: Yeah, he makes brooms somewhere in Georgia, doesn't he?

Third: I have no idea. [ pause ] To Bill Brasky!

Together: Bill Brasky!!"

 

[corpsmanUP]

I can only speak from my own experience. I am a 4th year MS applying to EM. I have received some impressive interview invites from some 33 of the 40 ACGME programs I aplied to. These include Mayo, Duke, Pitt, Cleveland Clinic Foundation, UTSouthwestern, Indiana University, UI Peoria, U Iowa, Maricopa, Emory, UIC Christ, LSU-BR, USF, OSU-Columbus, Maryland shock trauma, and many more. The rejects came from classical DO-hating institutions like Carolinas, and Vanderbilt.

But if a PD wants to turn down someone like me with top %ile boards, ranking, and experience, in favor of someone with the mere initials MD. Something tells me I could get interviews with this solid an application in year between now and the end of my lifetime. So I m not worried. A DO that wished to survive in the allopathic world better bring his game to play!

 

[jhug]

the reason, as I understood it, for all the new osteopathic schools opening up is simple, the coming physician shortage.

what a wonderfully altruistic load of crap! If the AOA really is concerned about the physician shortage...why aren't they seeing this noble cause through to the end by providing quality post-graduate education with the addition of all these schools??? You can open up all the new programs you want, but what good are all these new grads when you can't train them? If the AOA is going to hold on to this whole "our training is different then yours" how do they justify the fact that almost daily they are driving us to depend on the evil, non-people-only-symptom-treating allopathic world???

 

[OSUdoc08]

what a wonderfully altruistic load of crap! If the AOA really is concerned about the physician shortage...why aren't they seeing this noble cause through to the end by providing quality post-graduate education with the addition of all these schools??? You can open up all the new programs you want, but what good are all these new grads when you can't train them? If the AOA is going to hold on to this whole "our training is different then yours" how do they justify the fact that almost daily they are driving us to depend on the evil, non-people-only-symptom-treating allopathic world???

The physician shortage is in primary care.

There is no lack of AOA primary care positions, and DO's easily match into ACGME primary care positions anyway.

Therefore, you cannot disprove that the opening of the new schools is to address this shortage, solely based on the limited specialty positions.

 

[GregsAnatomy]

what a wonderfully altruistic load of crap! If the AOA really is concerned about the physician shortage...why aren't they seeing this noble cause through to the end by providing quality post-graduate education with the addition of all these schools??? You can open up all the new programs you want, but what good are all these new grads when you can't train them? If the AOA is going to hold on to this whole "our training is different then yours" how do they justify the fact that almost daily they are driving us to depend on the evil, non-people-only-symptom-treating allopathic world???

Don't forget that from a time a school expands its class size or a new school opens, it has 4 years to establish new residencies for those graduates. This is assuming, of course, that each school maintains a number of residencies equal to the number of graduates. (Does anyone know if the AOA requires this??? I'm guessing not...)

That said, in response to our increasing class size, NSU added residencies in family med and derm this year, and new programs in general surgery and emergency med are expected to begin next year.

 

[jhug]

as of the JAOA November 04 issue, there were 200 MORE students than residency spots TOTAL! let alone primary care...
my gripe isn't that there is not a need for physicians...i have a really hard time when our embarrassment of a professional body comes to my school as says i should do a DO residency because i need to be true to my profession...yet they are doing nothing to improve our residencies...there is a reason the the surplus of students still don't fill the programs available...they are a) in parts of the country no one wants to go to and b) they don't provide the education we expect.
so i would say, instead of solely pushing more and more DO students in to a funnel that eventually leads us to the ACGME...why not improve our post-graduate education (for starters...if a program hasn't filled in...say 5 years...MOVE IT WEST!!!)

Ultimately i think it is irresponsible (yet typical) that the AOA is building itself up on the idea of improving health care in america when in reality it is the ACGME that is fulfilling that role.

 

[futuredo32]

my gripe isn't that there is not a need for physicians...i have a really hard time when our embarrassment of a professional body comes to my school as says i should do a DO residency because i need to be true to my profession...yet they are doing nothing to improve our residencies...there is a reason the the surplus of students still don't fill the programs available...they are a) in parts of the country no one wants to go to and b) they don't provide the education we expect.

Ultimately i think it is irresponsible (yet typical) that the AOA is building itself up on the idea of improving health care in america when in reality it is the ACGME that is fulfilling that role.[/QUOTE]

I completely agree!!!

 

[docbill]

AOA should team up with walmart and open a school at every location.

The DO profession is / was a nice small profession.. kind of chic... but now they are just lowering the quality. No brand name status anymore.

 

[Elysium]

good point. you've got to wonder how much profitability factors into the decisions to open these new schools. it makes some do schools seem like the itt of the medical world. the touro thing really amazes me, too. why does such a new school need to open up two branches?

I can tell you right now that TUCOM has absolutely no business opening up another school. In order to fill the first class they had to take students with "questionable" stats (I know this first hand) and the second class is also filled with people with sub 23 MCATs and 3.0 GPAs. Out of 100 something students several have already decelerated/left. The faculty is mostly composed of professors who have never taught medical school before (with a few exceptions; there are some teachers that are good) and the whole program is basically under the control of an overweight egomanical sociopath anatomy instructor who delights in destroying student's spirits. The notion that the quality of applicants isn't going to be watered down by the introduction of several more questionable DO schools is absurd. There simply aren't enough highly qualified people to fill those spots. It'll be interesting to see what the board pass rate will be for these new schools - I suspect it'll be fairly horrific. That said, there are a handful of intelligent folks at the new schools that will make great (or competent) docs. That, though, is the exception to the rule. I hope the AOA (also questionable) puts a stop to these greedy bastards and reins in these schools before things get more out of control.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

I can tell you right now that TUCOM has absolutely no business opening up another school. In order to fill the first class they had to take students with "questionable" stats (I know this first hand) and the second class is also filled with people with sub 23 MCATs and 3.0 GPAs. Out of 100 something students several have already decelerated/left. The faculty is mostly composed of professors who have never taught medical school before (with a few exceptions; there are some teachers that are good) and the whole program is basically under the control of an overweight egomanical sociopath anatomy instructor who delights in destroying student's spirits. The notion that the quality of applicants isn't going to be watered down by the introduction of several more questionable DO schools is absurd. There simply aren't enough highly qualified people to fill those spots. It'll be interesting to see what the board pass rate will be for these new schools - I suspect it'll be fairly horrific. That said, there are a handful of intelligent folks at the new schools that will make great (or competent) docs. That, though, is the exception to the rule. I hope the AOA (also questionable) puts a stop to these greedy bastards and reins in these schools before things get more out of control.

doesn't touro actually control the number of people who can sit for the boards, so if you aren't doing well, they don't let you take them? if that's true, i guess their pass rate will remain high but like 20 people will take the test. thanks for the touro insight -- opening three schools in, what, ten years is a little fishy.

 

[size_tens]

I have a few issues with some of the arguements being made on this thread:
1) The insistence of MD program bigotry in which the establishment is preventing DO's from matching into top MD programs. Look guys the last time I checked there was an abundance of highly qualified MD grads applying for top MD residencies. The fact that many competitive programs accept very few DO's does not necessarily make them biased: they are simply choosing the best applicants for the program.
2) Complaining about the location and quality of DO GME: the information was freely available at the time you applied DO. Things are unlikely to change in a major way any time soon. I don't think a dual match would make that much of a difference in terms of DO's matching into top MD residencies. If anything there would simply be more DO's matching into primary care MD spots, leading to even more unfilled DO residency positions.
3) And no the AOA cannot simply make a bunch more derm or ortho residency positions out of thin air. Those types of spots are highly regulated.

 

[ClubberLang]

I have a few issues with some of the arguements being made on this thread:
1) The insistence of MD program bigotry in which the establishment is preventing DO's from matching into top MD programs. Look guys the last time I checked there was an abundance of highly qualified MD grads applying for top MD residencies. The fact that many competitive programs accept very few DO's does not necessarily make them biased: they are simply choosing the best applicants for the program.
2) Complaining about the location and quality of DO GME: the information was freely available at the time you applied DO. Things are unlikely to change in a major way any time soon. I don't think a dual match would make that much of a difference in terms of DO's matching into top MD residencies. If anything there would simply be more DO's matching into primary care MD spots, leading to even more unfilled DO residency positions.
3) And no the AOA cannot simply make a bunch more derm or ortho residency positions out of thin air. Those types of spots are highly regulated.

i fully agree with your first statement. If you are qualified, you will get the spot. there is going to be some bigotry anywhere you go or in any field you go into. not that i am defending it, but we are human, not perfect, so it is to be expected that you are going to bump into an as-hole or two. and the fact that programs are expanding and new ones are opening without maintaining the quality of education is watering down the quality of DO physicians being trained, not helping the situation. just my $.02

 

[jhug]

i agree with your first statement as well...

as for #2...at your interview did they tell you that the AOA is opening DO schools faster than you can say O-MS??? Did they bring up the fact that there aren't enough (total) AOA residencies for all DO graduates today...let alone the five or six new programs opening over span of two years? Did they mention that there is an AOA EM residency in a rural area where you see an average of one patient every 3 hours!!! Did they tell you that if you add all the DO FM/IM residencies west of Ohio you get the whopping total of 13!!! I'm not talking about derm or ortho...i'm talking bread-and-butter DO primary care residencies!

See, when i was applying, i had this terrible trust in that the AOA actually had some idea of why it existed...i figured there were educated men and women directing this profession into a bright and beautiful future...and the day you realize, while the president of the AOA and his fat little side-kick are making fools of themselves, that your profession has no direction/future/hope...and that the biggest push is getting TV SHOWS to air more DO time...it's a bit late to say i should have known better!

As for primary care residencies appearing out of thin air...that's where the AOA again is totally lost...you can't hold someone in the CV4 position and hope that their CSF is going to produce some magical moment in a distant cosmos that will spontaneously produce a quality educational environment...IT WILL TAKE PRODUCTIVE WORK! and that, my friend, is why we don't stand a chance!

Maybe it's because i didn't know this when i spent some good quality time researching DO programs that i vent on here...or maybe it's because i'm hoping to find that there are some out there that agree that our profession is going in the ENTIRELY wrong direction and i'll find some solice in knowing they will work to improve it as well...

 

[size_tens]

Maybe it's because i didn't know this when i spent some good quality time researching DO programs that i vent on here...or maybe it's because i'm hoping to find that there are some out there that agree that our profession is going in the ENTIRELY wrong direction and i'll find some solice in knowing they will work to improve it as well...

Let's be realistic here. There are more than enough residencies for all US medical grads in both MD and DO programs. This is evidenced by the fact that many spots go unfilled each year. In terms of training, any program that follows official guidelines should teach you what you need to know in order to be a competent, board-certified physician. It would seem that despite all these new schools opening up, you are still doomed to be collecting six figure salaries while managing the health of your patients.

 

[silas2642]

I can tell you right now that TUCOM has absolutely no business opening up another school. In order to fill the first class they had to take students with "questionable" stats (I know this first hand) and the second class is also filled with people with sub 23 MCATs and 3.0 GPAs. Out of 100 something students several have already decelerated/left. The faculty is mostly composed of professors who have never taught medical school before (with a few exceptions; there are some teachers that are good) and the whole program is basically under the control of an overweight egomanical sociopath anatomy instructor who delights in destroying student's spirits. The notion that the quality of applicants isn't going to be watered down by the introduction of several more questionable DO schools is absurd. There simply aren't enough highly qualified people to fill those spots. It'll be interesting to see what the board pass rate will be for these new schools - I suspect it'll be fairly horrific. That said, there are a handful of intelligent folks at the new schools that will make great (or competent) docs. That, though, is the exception to the rule. I hope the AOA (also questionable) puts a stop to these greedy bastards and reins in these schools before things get more out of control.

Yeah, but if you're worried about securing a good residency, think of it this way: programs know that newer schools tend to be weaker programs, and I think that this will definitely factor into where people will match. If underqualified applicants are going to these new schools and barely cutting it, then this is going to show. The people who aren't going to match aren't going to be the top DO students, they're going to be the weakest ones from schools that exist to make money and not good physicians.

 

[beastmaster]

*WARNING*

I can only imagine how many pre-med are reading this silly drivel and scratching their heads. I only hope you guys apply a modicum of critical reason in reading the posts here. It's bordering on the ridiculous now, people venting their anger disguised as an argument grounded in bias and speculation.

 

[docbill]

That is so true. SDN is the place where most pre-meds find out about DO option. The first thing they read on here is negative attitute and insecurity. Also sub par training and residency options.

 

[Echinoidea]

Yes, we need to hide these issues from them so that they think Osteopathic medicine is a wonderful magic land with absolutely no problems.

Get real. Pre-meds have an absolute right to understand the issues and growing pains that Osteopathic medicine is facing. How else can they make an informed decision?

I think a point that gets missed too often is that even those of us who rant and rave about the opening of new schools, lack of GME, etc., all do it out of love for the profession. I am 100% happy with my decision to go to an osteopathic school, and I can't imagine getting my medical training elsewhere. It is precisely because of this pride that I am so concerned about the future of our profession and its responsible growth.

 

[silas2642]

*WARNING*

I can only imagine how many pre-med are reading this silly drivel and scratching their heads. I only hope you guys apply a modicum of critical reason in reading the posts here. It's bordering on the ridiculous now, people venting their anger disguised as an argument grounded in bias and speculation.

I don't know what the hell to think except that I guess I'm glad I applied to allopathic schools this year because you guys are kind of scaring me.

 

[jhug]

Yes, we need to hide these issues from them so that they think Osteopathic medicine is a wonderful magic land with absolutely no problems.

THANK YOU!!!
It is so nice to know that there is someone else out there who isn't foolish enough to look the other way as the AOA ignorantly destroys our profession!!! (and doesn't think it is a good idea to keep this from future students )

don't get me wrong BM...it does dull the pain to think this all is silly little drivel...everyone will match and there will be no shortage of opportunities. But, once you come to accept the fact that by numbers EVERY SINGLE STUDENT entering a new DO program will be dependent on another group (ACGME) in order to practice as a physician...suddenly that silly little drivel is a frothing at the mouth.

I, too, am happy with my decision to be a DO...did i know that there is a HUGE self-inficted identity crisis among some of the leaders of our profession...no...OMM is really neat, and a great tool i'll use often...as for the whole "philosophy" thing...i think the AOA is showing us how important that is with their incessant determination to drive more and more DO graduates into ACGME residencies...

 

[beastmaster]

Yes, we need to hide these issues from them so that they think Osteopathic medicine is a wonderful magic land with absolutely no problems.

Get real. Pre-meds have an absolute right to understand the issues and growing pains that Osteopathic medicine is facing.

They also have a right to honest arguments. There is plenty to criticize, the decision to maybe open 3 new schools does not top the list. All I see is a bunch of hysteria and alarmism, not issues, with some of the dumbest arguments I've ever seen sprinkled in between. This kind of stuff does not advance understanding. There have been good discussions in the residency forums and such actually dealing with real issues, that posters themselves have dealt with. This thread is an embarassment.

 

[BMW19]

Why don't you guys see how us "idiots" will perform on the boards before you start bashing us. Let's be honest, is it your anatomy professor's experience that is going to make you a great physician? Half of you don't even go to freakin class, yet gripe about our "subpar" education at branch schools. Obviously we all study the same material on our own from the same books, so stop with the "new DO programs are subpar education" crap. I have brothers that went to top medical schools and never went to class. They studied on their own. The AOA is not decieving in one aspect, they actively recruit primary care. If you desparetely want to be an orthopedic surgeon, or cardiothoracic surgeon perhaps you should apply Allo.

BMW-

They also have a right to honest arguments. There is plenty to criticize, the decision to maybe open 3 new schools does not top the list. All I see is a bunch of hysteria and alarmism, not issues, with some of the dumbest arguments I've ever seen sprinkled in between. This kind of stuff does not advance understanding. There have been good discussions in the residency forums and such actually dealing with real issues, that posters themselves have dealt with. This thread is an embarassment.

 

[cardiotonic]

*WARNING*

I can only imagine how many pre-med are reading this silly drivel and scratching their heads. I only hope you guys apply a modicum of critical reason in reading the posts here. It's bordering on the ridiculous now, people venting their anger disguised as an argument grounded in bias and speculation.

very good point

 

[cardiotonic]

Why don't you guys see how us "idiots" will perform on the boards before you start bashing us. Let's be honest, is it your anatomy professor's experience that is going to make you a great physician? Half of you don't even go to freakin class, yet gripe about our "subpar" education at branch schools. Obviously we all study the same material on our own from the same books, so stop with the "new DO programs are subpar education" crap. I have brothers that went to top medical schools and never went to class. They studied on their own.

BMW-

another very good point

 

[MDmiracle]

Wow Jhug didn't know you felt quite that strong about the position the AOA is in. I guess that why your so involved in the political aspect.

On that note many of us complain that the AOA isn't or doesn't do enough to protect the profession, but few of us are involved at the political level to effect the change that we seem to so desperatly need. It's like the president, don't b_tch if you don't vote, i.e. put a voice to your complaints. The AOA is not likely to affect change from a bunch of message boards.

Second,
Dr. Shettle was in AZ recently where we asked him these very questions. I am paraphrasing here but the AOA has no control over who opens up new schools and ultimately only has power over them once the first class graduates and they can be accredited. IMO by then it's a little late. I think this needs ro be changed and FULL accreditation needs to be awarded PRIOR to opening the doors of any new schools.
Also, I asked the question regarding residencies and, again I am paraphrasing, his response was that because each residency is in large part funded by the federal government, and they are very reluctant to spend any more money with spots already going unfilled, it is unlikely that many new spots will open up. In reply we discussed private physician residencies, especially for fam, and peds. It was also brought up that the residency positions that do open could be privatized so that the student foots the bill or some other permutation that alleviates the federal government from responsibility.

So while I agree with many points being batted around, In order for this to be a productive discussion these concerns need to have a voice that gets to the leadership of the AOA. One voice may not induce change, but enough voices will. overtime if we continue to voice these concerns then as a organization they will have to listen or risk losing memberships and thus support and respect. Whether it is this administration or subsequent ones, sooner or later someone will get heard.

Now in the event that you are just venting during a study break ignore all of the above, Good Luck and happy studying

 

[beano]

False. I think the perfect example is a classmate of mine who is on this forum that scored ~250s on USMLE Step 1, probably in the top 10 of our class, assuming great LORs, and has been rejected at several big name residency programs because of the initials behind his name. This is happening everyday across all specialties.

Maybe it would be helpful or more significant if you knew of more than 1 such applicant that had this problem. The assumption that this person had great LORs also could be very misleading. As for this happening everyday... how do you really know? Nothing is absolutely true or false in this world.

have a great day!-B

 

[drtongue_danger]

I can tell you right now that TUCOM has absolutely no business opening up another school. In order to fill the first class they had to take students with "questionable" stats (I know this first hand) and the second class is also filled with people with sub 23 MCATs and 3.0 GPAs. Out of 100 something students several have already decelerated/left. The faculty is mostly composed of professors who have never taught medical school before (with a few exceptions; there are some teachers that are good) and the whole program is basically under the control of an overweight egomanical sociopath anatomy instructor who delights in destroying student's spirits. The notion that the quality of applicants isn't going to be watered down by the introduction of several more questionable DO schools is absurd. There simply aren't enough highly qualified people to fill those spots. It'll be interesting to see what the board pass rate will be for these new schools - I suspect it'll be fairly horrific. That said, there are a handful of intelligent folks at the new schools that will make great (or competent) docs. That, though, is the exception to the rule. I hope the AOA (also questionable) puts a stop to these greedy bastards and reins in these schools before things get more out of control.

It should be noted that the person above is a former Touro student that failed out , her view of the school is misguided. and since you are a former student how do you know what the new class is like? you really need to grow up and stop calling people names. I am sorry that you didn't do well in your class's but don't take it out on Touro

 

[ez073323]

It should be noted that the person above is a former Touro student that failed out , her view of the school is misguided. and since you are a former student how do you know what the new class is like? you really need to grow up and stop calling people names. I am sorry that you didn't do well in your class's but don't take it out on Touro

Elysium did not fail out of school. She made the active decision not to continue. Her knowledge of the current first years at Touro is through her many friends in the current second year class.

Brian

 

[drtongue_danger]

Elysium did not fail out of school. She made the active decision not to continue. Her knowledge of the current first years at Touro is through her many friends in the current second year class.

Brian

why would you "actively" not want to stay in school after the first year if not for poor performance? many of the biggest critics of the new DO school are people 1. with no clue about medical school (pre-med) 2. mis informed med- student with close to no knowlege of market condition for the medical field, and 3. those that are bitter, your friend falls under the latter.
she is mad at one teacher (gross anatomy) so that gives her the right to burn down the school and piss on it, and call everyone stuipd that stayed in school.

 

[1hotaartichoke]

Elysium did not fail out of school. She made the active decision not to continue. Her knowledge of the current first years at Touro is through her many friends in the current second year class.

Brian

so, her knowledge of the first yr class is from you guys in the second yrs. who have had some wierd turf war with the first yrs. and apparently, you guys think all the first yrs are ******ed.

are you sure she should be speaking for your class?

 

[pem8erly]

why would you "actively" not want to stay in school after the first year if not for poor performance? many of the biggest critics of the new DO school are people 1. with no clue about medical school (pre-med) 2. mis informed med- student with close to no knowlege of market condition for the medical field, and 3. those that are bitter, your friend falls under the latter.
she is mad at one teacher (gross anatomy) so that gives her the right to burn down the school and piss on it, and call everyone stuipd that stayed in school.

maybe some people have other priorities in life such as family emergencies or personal health reasons????

As a CURRENT student at Touro, I concede that the school isn't running as smooth as it should be. We have bumps and we are trying to work through those bumps. Maybe not as fast as some students (myself included) would like. I also feel that it is pre-mature to be opening up new schools when we've barely gotten off the ground and could use a lot more care and attention to make sure every student who comes through becomes a good physician.