3 years out of dental school. AMA!

[bjpenn]

I stumbled back on SDN out of boredom, and reading some posts made me realize how much I wish I had someone to ask about how dentistry is after school. As a pre-dent you focus so much on just getting in, but not many really know how it is after school. I graduated from NYU in 2013 and I'm currently working as an associate in a small corporate dental chain. Feel free to ask me anything.

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[dp93]

did you do a GPR/AEGD? why/why not?

 

[bjpenn]

I thought about it, but didn't want to apply to programs all over again. My impression of the programs was that you would be on-call, do lots of emergencies, and mostly extractions. Those GPRS/AEGD where you do implants/cosmetics are far and few. I heard in some programs you learn how to re-tx endos as well as get experience extracting 3rds, but I thought the upside to working right away was better.

I recall some of my colleages in gpr/aegd worked with disgrunted assistants, minimal/outdated equipment and materials. Didn't want to deal with that.

However, some people used gpr/aegd to increase their chances in a speciality program. My friend did a 2 year gpr and got accepted into pedo, so I guess it was right for him.

 

[dp93]

was it difficult to find work? Feel free to not answer this, but how was the starting salary?

 

[acemason]

Thanks for this thread.

Do you feel like you were adequately prepared to handle business aspects of managing a practice coming out of school?

 

[bjpenn]

It's not difficult to find work, but its difficult to find good work ie. efficient office, competent staff, good materials, and good pay. I was lucky to find a well paying job in a very rural area. Most of my friends are not making nearly as much because they chose to live in big cities. I have no idea how they manage esp due to all the loans they have to pay back.

I don't manage a practice- I just handle the dentistry part. The pros and cons are:
Pros: I don't have to manage staff, I just do the dentistry and go home
Cons: I have incompetent managers thinking they run the office and taking credit for things, so its a constant reminder to just block them out.

I've talked to lots of people about the future of dentistry in 10 years. Not to be too pessimistic, but the golden age is past us. If you think about it, most people goto school, buy a house, car, and a job. We do the same thing, but throw in the cost of a practice. Dentists have some of the highest startup costs, and there's no guarantee you'll be successful. I thought the same thing as you guys where I've never seen a homeless dentist. However, most dentists won't tell you if they are struggling, but a lot are.I work with a pedodontist and he says his colleagues in nyc are living paycheck to paycheck.

 

[dp93]

It's not difficult to find work, but its difficult to find good work ie. efficient office, competent staff, good materials, and good pay. I was lucky to find a well paying job in a very rural area. Most of my friends are not making nearly as much because they chose to live in big cities. I have no idea how they manage esp due to all the loans they have to pay back.

I don't manage a practice- I just handle the dentistry part. The pros and cons are:
Pros: I don't have to manage staff, I just do the dentistry and go home
Cons: I have incompetent managers thinking they run the office and taking credit for things, so its a constant reminder to just block them out.

I've talked to lots of people about the future of dentistry in 10 years. Not to be too pessimistic, but the golden age is past us. If you think about it, most people goto school, buy a house, car, and a job. We do the same thing, but throw in the cost of a practice. Dentists have some of the highest startup costs, and there's no guarantee you'll be successful. I thought the same thing as you guys where I've never seen a homeless dentist. However, most dentists won't tell you if they are struggling, but a lot are.

so would you agree going to cheaper school is usually better option?

 

[bjpenn]

Cheaper school is the best, but sometimes your only choice at dentistry is an expensive school.

 

[jeffk805dent]

While bjpenn speaks the truth, technically the golden age of every profession is over. Which basically means the economy sucks even if the unemployment rate has dropped.

 

[Jackthesparrow]

If you are thinking about going into a specialty after dental school, which area has the most potential(especially money) with minimum of risk?

 

[B0wMNj]

This may be a stupid question but, how do you go about finding a job after dental school, and what are the benefits of working at a corporate chain vs private practice? And if I were to start working in nyc what salary would I expect my first few years as an associate?

Thanks, I love these AMAs btw.

 

[bjpenn]

If you are thinking about going into a specialty after dental school, which area has the most potential(especially money) with minimum of risk?

Anywhere rural. If you're gonna try and do ortho in say, LA, you will have a huge uphill climb ahead of you because there are about 10 orthodontists in every direction you want to practice. Not only that, you have to compete with the 20 general dentists who also offer comprehensive ortho and invisalign.

 

[bjpenn]

This may be a stupid question but, how do you go about finding a job after dental school, and what are the benefits of working at a corporate chain vs private practice? And if I were to start working in nyc what salary would I expect my first few years as an associate?

Thanks, I love these AMAs btw.

Craigslist, or any other employment website online.

Corporate Chain:
Pros: probably would get paid more, easy to find a job
Cons: work like a dog, see tons of patients, possibly longer hours, materials could suck

Private Office:
Pros: could find a mentor thats willing to train you
Cons: really hard to find, pay probably less, patients want to see the main doctor not you, most don't want you for full time

If you start working in NYC, you probably would get paid around 500/a day. which might not be guaranteed You might think thats good, but thats nothing to cover your standard of living. I've had friends that work a couple of jobs part time, or some that have jumped from job to job. It takes time to find a job, and it also takes time to get credentialed with insurances, and to get used to the office. Also, if you don't see a decent amt of patients you will be slow. Speed is very important because you get paid based on the procedures you do. Dentistry is physically demanding on the body, but its even more tough to manage patients. You're on a schedule and while we wish that we had all the time in the world to spend with a patient, its not like that. Some patients have unrealistic expectations, or don't value their teeth.

 

[KBE91]

This post is very helpful -- Thank you @bjpenn -- and thank you for your response on my other post.
How long do you plan to stay at your current dental chain? What is your next step (if you've thought about it already)?

 

[bjpenn]

This post is very helpful -- Thank you @bjpenn -- and thank you for your response on my other post.
How long do you plan to stay at your current dental chain? What is your next step (if you've thought about it already)?

I want to stay as long as I can stand it in order to pay off my loan.

In terms of my next step I have several options:
- do a startup in the same city where I currently work
- do a startup in a sunburb of a big city
- partner up with some friends in another city

To me, positive cash flow and low risk are the keys to success.

 

[kidsaremypassion]

Bjpenn,
Thanks a lot for being open about your experiences after dental school. So often we see upperclassmen graduate and pretty much dissapear, while we wonder how they are really doing. How was the adjustment going from seeing 2-3 patients a day and sometimes spending hours on a procedure to make it as ideal as possible, to more of a private practice style? Is there anything you would have done as a 4th year to improve your efficiency or speed?

 

[gatsby121]

BJ,

you're a legend man, that fight with florian had me jumping out of my seat and dude that headkick you landed on diego was incredible....I was sad to see the way things ended with Edgar but your career is unparalleled. enjoy retirement! haha but seriously...

heading straight into a corp. chain seeing a lot of patients straight out of school, how confident were you in your abilities? what procedures did you pass on that first year? in hindsight what could you have done to prepare yourself to be a more comprehensive dentist straight out of the gate?

 

[dds2b219]

Thank you for this thread. Very helpful. If you don't mind me asking I have a few questions: seeing as you went to NYU; how did you get by financially in school? Loans, scholarships? How is your repayments considering you went to a very expensive school, is it hard to meet your payments and live comfortably each month? I ask only because I am faced with the decision of two very expensive schools and thinking about repayment is very stressful at this point. Thanks!!

 

[Screwtape]

What was your total loan balance from schooling? What was your starting salary? How much has it increased? How rural is "very rural"?

 

[THS]

Not to be too pessimistic, but the golden age is past us.

While bjpenn speaks the truth, technically the golden age of every profession is over.

Jordan Belfort (the real guy portrayed by Leonardo DiCaprio in The Wolf of Wall Street) "...enrolled in the Baltimore College of Dental Surgery; however, he left after the dean of the school said to him on his first day at the college: "The golden age of dentistry is over. If you’re here simply because you’re looking to make a lot of money, you’re in the wrong place."[16][17]"


This was back in the 70's and dentists were saying the same thing. If the "golden age" even existed, it must not have lasted long. Dentists are still doing fine, and will continue to do fine. Go where you are needed, and you will be fine.

Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Belfort

 

[jeffk805dent]

Jordan Belfort (the real guy portrayed by Leonardo DiCaprio in The Wolf of Wall Street) "...enrolled in the Baltimore College of Dental Surgery; however, he left after the dean of the school said to him on his first day at the college: "The golden age of dentistry is over. If you’re here simply because you’re looking to make a lot of money, you’re in the wrong place."[16][17]"


This was back in the 70's and dentists were saying the same thing. If the "golden age" even existed, it must not have lasted long. Dentists are still doing fine, and will continue to do fine. Go where you are needed, and you will be fine.

Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Belfort

true. But you can make that case for other professions as well. Plus you have to keep in mind not all patients in a rural area will go to the dental office and that if you open a dental office with enough patients to keep your office running. Another dentist opens an office and boom the ratio of patients can go drastically down. A very successful office needs to be rural but not Gobi Desert/Siberia kind of rural.

 

[Coloradoboulder]

How did your colleagues that went into the military after dental school?

 

[jenfromdablock]

I stumbled back on SDN out of boredom, and reading some posts made me realize how much I wish I had someone to ask about how dentistry is after school. As a pre-dent you focus so much on just getting in, but not many really know how it is after school. I graduated from NYU in 2013 andstaI'm currently working as an associate in a small corporate dental chain. Feel free to ask me anything.

With loans, I'm guessing you have 300k ish, are you on PAYE or just standard repayment?

 

[bjpenn]

Bjpenn,
Thanks a lot for being open about your experiences after dental school. So often we see upperclassmen graduate and pretty much dissapear, while we wonder how they are really doing. How was the adjustment going from seeing 2-3 patients a day and sometimes spending hours on a procedure to make it as ideal as possible, to more of a private practice style? Is there anything you would have done as a 4th year to improve your efficiency or speed?

Yea, I went from seeing 2-3 to seeing around 20-40 on a daily basis. I work hard, but I've been able to increase my speed dramatically. The easiest/efficient thing I would do as a 4th year is to go spend time in OS and learn how to extract teeth. If you're lucky, maybe you can learn to extract impacted wisdom teeth. As far as speed, there is nothing in dental school you can do to increase it because school is so full of red tape ie. faculty signatures, paperwork, etc.

 

[bjpenn]

Jordan Belfort (the real guy portrayed by Leonardo DiCaprio in The Wolf of Wall Street) "...enrolled in the Baltimore College of Dental Surgery; however, he left after the dean of the school said to him on his first day at the college: "The golden age of dentistry is over. If you’re here simply because you’re looking to make a lot of money, you’re in the wrong place."[16][17]"


This was back in the 70's and dentists were saying the same thing. If the "golden age" even existed, it must not have lasted long. Dentists are still doing fine, and will continue to do fine. Go where you are needed, and you will be fine.

Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Belfort

I agree with you, but everyone's definition of "fine" is different. I spent a lot of time in school and had to deal with tons of bs. I want to be compensated for that. You on the other hand are going to a much cheaper school so I commend you for that. You won't have to face nearly as much stuff as me and everyone else who went to private schools do.

 

[bjpenn]

BJ,

you're a legend man, that fight with florian had me jumping out of my seat and dude that headkick you landed on diego was incredible....I was sad to see the way things ended with Edgar but your career is unparalleled. enjoy retirement! haha but seriously...

heading straight into a corp. chain seeing a lot of patients straight out of school, how confident were you in your abilities? what procedures did you pass on that first year? in hindsight what could you have done to prepare yourself to be a more comprehensive dentist straight out of the gate?

I was really confident, but I realized I wasn't as fast as my more experienced colleagues. I probably did 3-4 endo total my first year just because of the sheer volume of patients I had(my office triple books), but I doubled the amt of endo I did just this past month. I do more pedo stainless steel crowns now too this year. In hindsight, I would learn how to extract teeth faster. That's the easiest thing you could do while in school; go down to OS and shadow as much as you can. You need a limited amount of tools for that, and the rest is technique and knowing what not to do.

 

[bjpenn]

How did your colleagues that went into the military after dental school?

I have a good friend in the air force right now. She did one year aegd after graduation that didn't count towards her service, and now is just completing her first year in turkey. I'm jealous she's been able to do some perio surgeries, full bony ext of wisdom teeth, and endo re-treats. However, shes off in some far place away from friends and family. She's gonna be really skilled when she gets out and debt free, but the military life is not for everyone. She complained to me the other day about how her boss is a prick and doesn't help anyone and is just concerned with production numbers. Kinda like most corporate dental offices here.

 

[bjpenn]

Thank you for this thread. Very helpful. If you don't mind me asking I have a few questions: seeing as you went to NYU; how did you get by financially in school? Loans, scholarships? How is your repayments considering you went to a very expensive school, is it hard to meet your payments and live comfortably each month? I ask only because I am faced with the decision of two very expensive schools and thinking about repayment is very stressful at this point. Thanks!!

Loans. My repayment is a couple thousand a month, but I can make it no problem because I make a lot of money. The problem is crapload of taxes you have to pay. Loan repayment isn't tax deductible; well only a small, negligible amount of it is. If you only have the option of going to an expensive school, choose the least expensive one. Don't think about the loan while you're in school. There are so many other things to think while trying to stay sane. You're committed, but my goal here is to just show you how it is after school.

 

[bjpenn]

What was your total loan balance from schooling? What was your starting salary? How much has it increased? How rural is "very rural"?

My loan balance was more than 300k. My starting salary was more than 200k. I'm planning to not take as much vacation this year, so I'll be able to make a little more. Very rural...heres an example: on the weekends, I just goto costco and the mall. If you want to eat healthy, the only option is jasons deli.

 

[bjpenn]

With loans, I'm guessing you have 300k ish, are you on PAYE or just standard repayment?

I consolidated all my loans and got a really good interest rate, and I just pay the minimum monthly. I then pay off a huge lump sum bc it makes me feel like i'm really chipping away at the debt.

 

[rendal]

Loans. My repayment is a couple thousand a month, but I can make it no problem because I make a lot of money. The problem is crapload of taxes you have to pay. Loan repayment isn't tax deductible; well only a small, negligible amount of it is. If you only have the option of going to an expensive school, choose the least expensive one. Don't think about the loan while you're in school. There are so many other things to think while trying to stay sane. You're committed, but my goal here is to just show you how it is after school.

Do you know if the loan repayment is considered tax deductible if you own your own practice as opposed to being an associate? I would imagine that it could be considered a business expense. I've been looking into this for a while and haven't gotten a definitive answer.

 

[bjpenn]

Do you know if the loan repayment is considered tax deductible if you own your own practice as opposed to being an associate? I would imagine that it could be considered a business expense. I've been looking into this for a while and haven't gotten a definitive answer.

I'm in independent contractor even though I'm an associate. No way this is considered a business expense.

 

[dentalmagic]

My loan balance was more than 300k. My starting salary was more than 200k. I'm planning to not take as much vacation this year, so I'll be able to make a little more. Very rural...heres an example: on the weekends, I just goto costco and the mall. If you want to eat healthy, the only option is jasons deli.

So Riverside? That's not too rural is it?

Edit: nvm just realized Jason's deli is a chain ... ?

 

[Hopeandpray]

Thank you for giving us a glimpse of life on the other side, I am also worried about taking on so much debt but it sounds like you are managing ok. Did most of the students that graduated with you land jobs before graduation? Are you happy you went into Dentistry or would you rather be doing something else? P.s. cute dog!

 

[Coloradoboulder]

Yea thank you very much for doing this. Also at the corporate chain they pay you that much? Wow.

 

[jenfromdablock]

I consolidated all my loans and got a really good interest rate, and I just pay the minimum monthly. I then pay off a huge lump sum bc it makes me feel like i'm really chipping away at the debt.

1. Weren't your loans from FAFSA, so how did you get a really good interest rate? SoFi? Once you do that, you can't apply for IBR or PAYE
2. Where in the world did you find a 200k+ position...and how rural is rural?

 

[bjpenn]

yup i did sofi! how did you find out about it? is it really popular now? my rate is around 3.5%. I looked into IBR, but just seemed too confusing to me. I felt confident that if I could reduce the interest rate, I could pay it off.

very rural...heres an example: on the weekends, I just goto costco and the mall. If you want to eat healthy, the only option is jasons deli

 

[bjpenn]

Yea thank you very much for doing this. Also at the corporate chain they pay you that much? Wow.

uh..I see about 20-40 patients a day. its not much considering how many patients I see.

 

[jenfromdablock]

yup i did sofi! how did you find out about it? is it really popular now? my rate is around 3.5%. I looked into IBR, but just seemed too confusing to me. I felt confident that if I could reduce the interest rate, I could pay it off.

very rural...heres an example: on the weekends, I just goto costco and the mall. If you want to eat healthy, the only option is jasons deli

1. Yes SoFi is pretty popular, but you realize you can't do IBR or PAYE anymore right? You said your loans are 300k, how much are your monthly payments and for how long do you expect to have them there? I'd like to run your numbers.
2. Nice!

 

[bjpenn]

Thank you for giving us a glimpse of life on the other side, I am also worried about taking on so much debt but it sounds like you are managing ok. Did most of the students that graduated with you land jobs before graduation? Are you happy you went into Dentistry or would you rather be doing something else? P.s. cute dog!

Yea, I'm way more than okay, but I do wish I was in a regular city and owned a home. I currently still drive my 2002 altima with 180,000 miles. It's very easy to find a job in dentistry, but its HARD to find the right job. So many owners/chains end up screwing you somehow.

In the end, everything happens for a reason. I feel like I have a tangible skill and those moments when you have a patient really appreciate what you did for them makes your day. Most days I like it, some days I don't. Dentistry is very physically and mentally exhausting. Most people hate coming to you because they are scared. I just wish dental school wasn't so expensive..it just perpetuates this corporate model that dentistry is heading towards.

 

[bjpenn]

1. Yes SoFi is pretty popular, but you realize you can't do IBR or PAYE anymore right? You said your loans are 300k, how much are your monthly payments and for how long do you expect to have them there? I'd like to run your numbers.
2. Nice!

2500/month for 15 years..yea i know I can't do ibr or paye. I think I was concerned about what happens in future..will your loan really be forgiven? I plan to pay all this off in the next 2-4 years.

 

[jenfromdablock]

2500/month for 15 years..yea i know I can't do ibr or paye. I think I was concerned about what happens in future..will your loan really be forgiven? I plan to pay all this off in the next 2-4 years.

How can you pay it off if you're dishing out only 2500 a month? 2-4 years? 200k after taxes is like what...165k? Then what? You live on 50k a year and dish out an additional 115k a year for loans?

 

[bjpenn]

yep! and I do that by living below my means, no new car, no mortgage, take 1-2 nice vacations a year. don't really buy anything either. I cook more for myself now too.

 

[jenfromdablock]

yep! and I do that by living below my means, no new car, no mortgage, take 1-2 nice vacations a year. don't really buy anything either. I cook more for myself now too.

Teach me your ways....can I PM you?

 

[bjpenn]

Teach me your ways....can I PM you?

sure

 

[jennifer kim]

Hello! this is perfect thread i was just looking for. Im currently attending a dental school, but i was wondering when you are really finding a job as a general dentist, if offices dont request GPA ? I am not doing very hot so I get worried that I wouldnt be hired. People tell me they do not ask for GPA from dental school but I wanted to make sure.

 

[bjpenn]

most offices ask for a resume, but you can omit your gpa. Most offices just want you to make sure you're not crazy, you have a good personality, and you're willing to learn, dont f*** things up, and you get along with the staff. keep in mind you're going to be really raw in terms of speed, so you make up for that by coming across the type of person you would want to hire.

I always liked to do a working interview, just so i can check out the place, see what they are working with. The more you can expect/know going into something, the better off you are.

 

[irishmom]

Some of the best hygienists from my hygiene class were the most challenged in the classroom. They rocked in the clinic. That is the most important part, IMO. May be the same in dental school. FWIW

 

[jennifer kim]

most offices ask for a resume, but you can omit your gpa. Most offices just want you to make sure you're not crazy, you have a good personality, and you're willing to learn, dont f*** things up, and you get along with the staff. keep in mind you're going to be really raw in terms of speed, so you make up for that by coming across the type of person you would want to hire.

I always liked to do a working interview, just so i can check out the place, see what they are working with. The more you can expect/know going into something, the better off you are.

does it seem like you are less qualified if you omit your gpa? i mean i guess it does, but do you knwo anybody that did omit and still got hired?

 

[bjpenn]

well i omitted mine if that makes you feel any better. actually my sister, my wife, and probably a lot of other people don't include their gpa. I've seen people with good gpas work for awhile, and get canned bc they weren't a right fit for the office. like i said, there are plenty of job offers, but the key is getting the RIGHT job and that depends on the factors i mentioned above.

but most associate jobs suck anyways. One humbling thing to realize is that you start/need to pay your dues after dental school. things take time unfortunately.