37 reasons not to be a military dentist

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navdoc47

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37 reasons not to be a military dentist (please feel free to reply to
my post to add more):

I took my military physician post and tweaked it for you dentists. I have a few good friends who are military dentists, and from their input, I am able to share with you some valuable insight.

Virtually nobody is staying in military dentistry. Your pay is not even near to being competitive. The only folks staying in are those who are going on for specialty training.

And to add insult to injury, I hear that your typical 1 yr of dental internship will no longer count as part of your 4 yr payback.
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1-6. when you deploy for 6+ months, you'll enjoy a daily schedule that will look something
like...

1) no sex while your civilian counterparts enjoy a normal sex life. Someday you'll look fondly at the days when you or your spouse didn't need Viagra.

2) crappy food while your civilian counterparts enjoy choice restaurants (I heard food in iraq is decent, but I can assure you that food on a ship sucks, and food w/Marines via MREs or ‘trayrats' doesn't even deserve the term ‘food'.)

3) no broadband internet while your civilian counterparts enjoy itunes and the like.

4) stay in a work environment 24/7 while your civilian counterparts enjoy weekends and holidays off.

5) sleep in a crappy rack/cot (it doesn't deserve the term 'bed')/crap in port-o-pottys while your civilian counterparts enjoy queen/king sized beds and flushing toilets. If you're out in the field, you'll enjoy sleeping on the ground.

6) repeat over and over, daily, for approximately 180+ days,
meanwhile, the rest of society is enjoying high def television, plumbing,
broadband internet, the freedom to go out and shop/dine/romantic
evenings/etc, raising a family and spending thousands of more hours with their spouse.

But of course, if you prefer living in a tent, trying to pass time playing cards with your coworkers, then hats off to you !

7. serve your country while the CEOs of defense companies and contractors (Halliburton) are serving themselves richly. okay this
doesn't help, but I like to make fun...

8. YOU LOSE BIG IF YOU TAKE AN HPSP SCHOLARSHIP: you're a sucker to take the HPSP scholarship - I like to call it a "MAFIA loan" (small short term rewards via a little more money during dental school, but ultra heavy payback).

What's the average dentist earnings? About 225K
What will you earn as a military dentist? About 67K

(base pay as O3 with less than 2 yrs service is 3292 per month, plus average of 1500 for BAH, plus 192 for BAS plus 250 for VSP = 63,000 per year

Then add your generous ASP yearly bonus of $4,0000

And your income is around $67,000 per year.

WHEN YOU'RE MISERABLE CAUSE YOU'RE DEPLOYED, AWAY FROM FAMILY, WILL THIS BE WORTH IT, JUST TO SAVE AN EXTRA $1000 PER MONTH IN STUDENT LOAN PAYMENTS WHEN YOU COULD BE MAKING 200K PER YEAR PRACTICING GENERAL DENTISTRY.

If the price of your freedom is worth less than that $1000 per month student loan payment, then by all means, sign up.

9. GOODBYE AUTONOMY: kiss your right to feeling privileged as a dentist good-bye. you will do what they tell you, go where they tell you, no questions asked (you can ask all you want, but will fall on deaf ears). you might get lucky and get to live in a nice area, but you might also get to live in less cultural/popular areas like 29 Palms CA (middle of desert, east of palm springs), Okinawa, Guam, Norfolk VA, Meridian MS, Ingleside TX, Camp Le Jeune NC, Guantanamo Cuba, among others. Remember you're a dentist - why subjugate yourself to a chain of command? - be all you can be - ie your own boss.

10. TIME IN DENTAL SCHOOL DOES NOT COUNT: the military doesn't respect the time you spent during dental school if you want to make the military a career. For instance, an officer who did not go to dental school can retire at 42 (start at 22, do 20 yrs). but minimum for dentists is 46. Then to insult you even more, your time in dental school does not count in the pay chart. This matters because a LT (O-3) with less than 2 yrs in service makes roughly $3200 per month in base pay, whereas if you had over 4 yrs, you would make $4000 per month in base pay despite being in the same rank - that's a difference of $800 per month.

IT'S A SHAME THAT TIME DURING DENTAL SCHOOL DOES NOT COUNT TOWARDS ACTIVE DUTY TIME. MSCs (medical planners) CAN GET THEIR MASTERS DEGREE IN HEALTH ADMIN AS A CIVILIAN, GET PAID AS AN E4 AS WELL AS TUITION, AND THAT TIME COUNTS TOWARDS RETIREMENT. THEY EVEN ACCRUE LEAVE. SO MEDICAL PLANNERS CAN RETIRE AT 42, BUT YOU WITH A DENTAL DEGREE CAN RETIRE AT 46.

11. ADMINISTRATIVE JOBS: makes me laugh how one of the advertisements in military is "don't have to worry about setting up your practice". well they more than make up for it by giving you plenty of administrative duties on top of seeing patients - lol.

12. NO CHOICE IN YOUR EQUIPMENT: you can't change things like you can with your own practice. you get to enjoy folks working under you who rotate as often as you do (and therefore need constant training). don't like the old computer you're working on? well in your own practice, you can change that. in the military, you won't, unless you have that admin job.

13. YOUR EVALUATIONS: fitness reports - this is the most humorsome part the military that takes away any feeling of autonomy and privilege. to make a higher rank after you've been in for awhile, your fitness reports need to be filled with bullets (stuff you've done in addition to seeing patients) - so have fun racking up the admin duties to show how good of a manager you are. failure to do so will result in you being very frustrated at not making captain/colonel (O-6). oh and lots of a$$ kissing can often beef up fitness reports to make you more competitive than your colleagues. do yourself a favor - don't enter an arena you don't need to be in, and remember that NOT joining the military means you don't have to deal with the bs associated with fitness reports.

14. FIGHT FOR FREEDOM, BUT DON'T EXPECT ANY FOR YOURSELF: in the military, you're under the Uniform Code of Justice. odds are, this won't affect you. but lord help you if you've put in 10+ yrs, trying to make it a career, then you get pulled over for DUI. in the civilian world, nobody will penalize your career as easily as the military. interestingly, it's still illegal to have sex in an adulterous affair, it is illegal to have a homosexual relationship, it is illegal to have anal sex (heterosexual too), and it is illegal to have sex with a prostitute (even if it's legal for civilians). you will even be told which areas are off-limits because of previous crimes - not a big deal unless something happens to you in that area. basically my point is you give up a ton of freedoms (because when you work in the military, you subject your life to conditions similar to communism/dictatorship). these freedoms don't become apparent until you find yourself stuck in a situation. just ask LT Kelly Flinn (previous AF pilot convicted for adultery).

15. TRAINING: Training, training, training. First you get a taste of it at OIS - several wks of boot camp style living (early to bed, early to rise). You get to learn things that will be vital to your future success as a dentist - the first thing that comes to mind is marching in formation. Your civilian friends in the meantime can stay home, enjoy their time, but suffer the consequences of not knowing how to march in formation. To get a taste of your valuable training at OIS, go to their website, look at their FAQ at https://otcn.netc.navy.mil/ois/index...issn/index.cfm

My favorite is "Are OIS students allowed personal phone calls?...prohibited during the first 2 weeks of training".

oh you'll love C4 training too - that's 10 days or so of living spartan, showering in communal showers (when you're not camping), completing your bowel movements in port-o-pottys, crappy food, the usual - kind of like conditions in a deployment.

16. REQUIRED COMPUTER TRAINING: navy knowledge online (and similar other training) - every so often, you'll get to update your computer training as you sit in front of a screen for many hrs, clicking thru outrageously slow 'learning modules'.

17. NOT ALWAYS 30 DAYS VACATION: they say you get 30 days of paid vacation per year. this isn't always the case. also remember that leave days count even if it's the weekend. once you report to a command, you will often have difficulty taking all 30 days of leave per year. over time this will build up, and if you carry more than 60 days of leave on the books, you can end up losing it. leave is money...

18. LOST SPOUSE INCOME: those with spouses who want careers too:
The military is the absolute worst place to be, given that you have no idea where you will be in 2 yrs and the frequent moving. so if you join the military, if your spouse loses out on a good job making good $$$/pension benefits, then you just unintentionally killed thousands of $$$ of potential earnings. if your spouse does not work or works for very little, then the military won't hurt. but if your spouse is a school teacher who would make a nice pension in retirement, your spouse will never see those benefits moving from school district to school district.

19. YOUR CONTRACT: guess why they have 3-4 yr contracts/scholarships? cause when people find that they've been duped, the contract keeps them roped in. Yes you can quit and go AWOL, but then you'd be breaking the law, and that's not very convenient. if this were truly a great job, do you really think they would have contracts greater than 1 yr?

20. HIGH TURNOVER: the military finds that it is cheaper to have high turnover (don't give many incentives to keep people in, but make up for it in recruiting those who are open-minded to being duped). Nobody is staying in military dentistry, except the few who decide to do specialty training.

21. NOT SO GREAT RETIREMENT: your retirement pay is the same as any officer who didn't go to dental school (less if you count the fact that officers entering the service straight out of undergrad will end up retiring 4 yrs sooner than you). I haven't figured out the VA retirement system - perhaps one's retirement there is proportional to one's job (and therefore better). And how good is retirement pay? well after 20 yrs it's 50% of your base pay (ie same for everyone in that rank, regardless of what job or degrees you have). The 2005 base pay for 0-5 (typical rank for those retiring at 20 yrs) is $6793. Your retirement pay is the average base pay for your previous 3 yrs, so it's a little less than 50% of $6793 in today's dollars. But for sake of simplicity in calculating, 50% is $3396 monthly, ie $40758 annually. Not a bad pension if you didn't go to dental school.

YOU GET TO WORK FOR THE ONLY EMPLOYER IN THE COUNTRY THAT COMPENSATES DENTAL RETIREMENT AT THE SAME LEVEL AS NURSE RETIREMENT.

22. SKETCHY EDUCATION FOR CHILDREN. if you're stationed overseas with children, hope your children enjoy being taught by teachers contracted abroad (and no, these teachers are not typically Philips Exeter material). I have heard good things about overseas schools however. But if for some reason you don't like the school system in Guam or wherever, what private school choice do you have? - nothing.

23. FINANCIAL LOSS WHEN MOVING: DLA (dislocation allowance) - approx $2K for officers to help off-set the cost of your move every 2-3 yrs. however keep in mind the closing costs if you sell your home - at least 15K for a cheap home (130K). Obviously the realtor's fee is much higher the more expensive your home is. the closing costs for a home in San Diego or Washington DC - lol - absolutely hilarious compared with the compensation of DLA. In the business world, an upper lvl manager will be paid many thousands more for having to move (30K-70K).

24. LOST HOME INVESTMENT. the #1 investment is one's home in america. However with moving every few years, don't expect your home to be your investment. most people in the military rent, very few go thru the trouble of keeping their home long-term.

25. SLAVE LABOR. remember that when you sign a contract, there is no limit to the hours you can work. Not always abused to the extreme, or else everyone would leave. However it is abused from time to time, like when you deploy. Imagine what the military would have to pay a dentist to go 6 months in a war zone, in a wonderful place like Iraq - upwards of 500K i'm guessing? the Pentagon gets one hell of a deal if you sign up

26. GREAT FOR PRIVATE PRACTICE. for every year spent in the military, that is a year lost in building up your practice.

27. MOVING (an experience you'll learn to love). the moving company will document every scratch and nick on your furniture, but when it's delivered with more nicks and scratches, you won't get compensated unless it's broken. And even if you could get compensated, odds are you won't bother yourself with filing a claim since you won't want to waste your time to file the claim in person (they purposefully make you file it in person, cause if you could file it by mail, that would generate more claims). So over the years, your furniture will get dinged and damaged, all at your own expense. Typical sequence goes like this: you buy new furniture, then you move, then you notice there are scratches but not enough to make yourself file a claim, then you move again
(typically every 2-3 yrs) at which point the previous move's scratches are recorded as unclaimable for the current move, then you notice more scratches after move #2, but since those new scratches aren't enough for a claim you don't bother (and move #1 scratches which were recorded as having already existed can't be claimed at this point), then the cycle continues every time you move, to where finally you have furniture completely dinged/scratched that can't be compensated. i apologize for the run-on sentences - heh.

28-30: PERSONAL DEVELOPMENT: personal reasons to join the military as a dentist (in addition to what the recruiter tells you):
a) you hate your family (i'm not saying that military dentists hate their family, i'm simply saying that if you're the rare person who does hate their family, you'll love the military given all the time you'll be away from them).
b) the thought of being away while your child is born is appealing (for males) - this happens often, given deployment schedules.
c) if you're single, you like to stay single (kind of hard to develop a relationship if you're in middle of nowhere or on deployment or stationed in Okinawa, Diego Garcia, or Guam).

31. Sometimes you have the opportunity to be a guinea pig. Just ask the folks who previously tried refusing the anthrax vaccine. In all likelihood you'll enjoy receiving smallpox and anthrax vaccines. My personal favorite is the anthrax vaccine. It's got one hell of an after-kick. Smallpox is pretty cool to observe when someone has a bad reaction too.

32. I think one of the biggest reasons why people don't stay beyond their commitment is the fact that they don't factor in the stress on their family with regards to deploying or moving. They think, "i can handle a deployment to iraq, a ship, afghanistan, move overseas, etc". But when they complete all of these events, they find that things take a greater toll than they had expected with regards to their family. Thoughts include, "hmmm...my son or daughter missed a lot of time with me...don't need to do that to them again". Then voila, off to civvy world they go

33. If you're a pet lover, you'll want to keep your pets down to 2 cats or dogs (or 1 of each). If you go overseas, you will have restrictions. Go to Japan, and enjoy following a whole list of stuff to bring them over (you may have to keep them quarantined for 6 months). All in all, a big headache.

34. I almost forgot to mention. When you deploy, you don't get weekends off. So imagine you were deployed to Iraq for 6 months...that's a lot of weekends to miss out on. The only time you would get off, in that situation, is leave time of 30 days per year (and yes, weekends do count during leave !!!).

35. If you're single, you're going to have a very rough time trying to fix your love life with the click of a mouse button. Your match.com pursuits will be very challenging when you write back saying you can't go on a date for the duration of your deployment :p

36. You think you can enjoy seeing the world in the military? Most married people, when traveling abroad, don't seem to enjoy their travels when they're spouse isn't around. To further complicate things, you will enjoy all sorts of restrictions when you're out on 'liberty'. These include having a 'liberty buddy' (they don't want you exploring by yourself) as well as Cinderella curfews. If you stay overnight in a hotel (at your own expense), you'll enjoy calling at 6am to 'check in'.

37. Dentists are deployed to war zones. Pity the person who receives a disabling injury, for I hear it's tough to perform procedures if you've lost a limb.

But of course, the best reasons to work in the military are that you're not self-serving, you don't mind working a lot more (lose countless weekends during deployments) for a fraction of civilian pay, you don't mind risking your life or limb, and you love the idea of working in the military. Most people are great to work with, and that's the best quality i can think of (but people are great to work with in civilian world too).

CONCLUSION: suck it up and borrow the money (you'll have much more "sucking it up" down the road if you take an HPSP scholarship).

But if you're the OCPD type (obsessive compulsive personality disorder) and you hate the idea of borrowing money (even though a few years down the road you can make 225K per year), then please sign up !!!

Don't let the military fool you with 20K here and there. They know you're broke, so those small figures seem large. If you simply look ahead just a bit, you'll see that your professional riches will be many times greater as a civilian.

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For the most part I can't say navydoc is wrong, pretty much it's all true. Some of it not quite as dark all the time, but when you're deployed or doing a hardship tour you'll notice all of it more.

To be fair, for the first 4 years you are paying back your loans, the pay isn't that bad if you consider they are paying back your school (about another $50k/year). After that all bets are off.
 
K i may not be there yet, but from what I have been told from people doing it right now. It's nowhere near as bad as this is making it out to be. Maybe this is true with Navy medicine...or maybe its just one person's experience, but I think this is probably going to a slight extreme. It pretty much seems like all this is just replacing the word(s) "doctor/physician" w/ "dentist" and assuming that it holds true. I have seen the milmed forums...and its nothing but bash bash bash. Let's try not to have that here. I think everyone in the dental forum has been done a pretty good job to keep this strictly informative. Not as a means to detour anyone from what they've signed up for. I'm not saying navdoc is wrong..maybe this is this is his experience and the experience of his counterparts. But i dont think there is as much crap to deal w/ in the military dentistry than military medicine. Oh, the avg dental salary is not 225k..4-5yrs out of school you wont come close to touching that amount. I mean, a successful owner of a private practice can maybe pull that off...but thats not the norm. Ah screw it...i'm goin back to bed
 
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While things aren't as dark as navydoc makes them out to be, it's important to hear from someone who is really unhappy with their military career choice, just like it is from someone who's gung ho military. This forum lets everyone speak their mind in hopes of giving people considering the scholarship a chance to hear from everyone. And there are more people getting out than staying in, so people who have done the job are moving on for some of the above reasons. And as he said most of those staying in are staying for education.

I was too lazy to go through and respond to everything before, but I will now. Most of it is true though, here are a few things I'd offer in reply to his post (organized by his numbered reasons):

1. No sex during deployments, true and it sucks, but it's fun making up when you come home, honeymoon all over again.

4/34. I actually only work a 5 day week in Iraq, not that there's anything to do when you are off. Part of that is because we have more dentists than chairs and they really should send someone home though.

5. In the army most deployed soldiers get beds now, though the mattresses aren't great, it's better than the ground.

8. Shamrock is right average dental salary is closer to $125k/year in private, about equal to the military salary plus your scholarship value. And loan repayment doesn't stop at $1,000 a month for 4 years, most loans are at least 10 yrs. Financially the HPSP isn't bad, but justifying staying in longer is hard.

14. DUI's and adultery aren't really looked upon anymore favorably in the civilian world. If you like going to the slums and hanging out with druggies and prostitutes it will cramp your style.

15. C4 isn't that bad, this is the military, not a 4 star resort, training is about enduring hardship, and dentists spend little time in the field compared to the rest of the army. If you don't like getting a little dirty every once and a while the military isn't for you.

19. Contracts are a bad thing in my opinion, but necessary in the case of the HPSP so the military gets their money back. My wifem also a dentist, signed a contract on the civilian side that she just fought to get out of. Just know what you are getting into before you sign one. If you are considering an HPSP, talk to someone at a local military clinic and volunteer enough time shadowing to see the good and the bad, not just a day to walk through.

21. Few civilian counterparts provide any retirement, so you have to fund that all yourself. Doesn't matter if you don't stay a full 20 though.

24. My parents bought a home and rented it out their entire career and did well renting it out. They sold it at a great profit when they retired and bought a house where they wanted.

26. The military does give you a chance to get your skills up and learn things from specialists you wouldn't get the opportunity to in private practice. No specialist is going to teach you something that will take away his referrals.

37. I won't say you are completely safe over here but serious injuries for medical personnel are rare, but some have been killed also (not dentists though).

To balance out the post the few advantages of the military HPSP are:
1. Chance to get your speed and skill up.
2. Education opportunities, official and just working with specialists.
3. Health, disability, malpractice, and life insurance are covered.
4. Patriotism, treating soldiers, they deserve it.
5. No loan repayment.

Those of you considering a scholarship are at an advantage. I applied and got locked in long before 9/11. Now you know that if you join you will most likely be deployed, you can make a decision as to whether you think you can endure it or not. Knowing that before you go in is a good thing in my opinion. For those of you that are single though, consider that you may meet the women of your dreams in dental school and you need to make sure she is going to stick with you through all your obligations.
 
Just to clarify about my wife's contract.

It was a contract at a civilian private practice, not a government contract.

Be aware of any place that wants you to sign a contract before you start working. In private practice, negoiate a 90 day trial period where either you or the clinic can quit or let you go with no fault. Also be wary of a contract that requires you to give more notice before quitting than they need to give you before letting you go.

If you can't get a trial period, then shadow someone there to see what the working environment is really like.
 
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I'm in agreement with BQuad for the most part. I do think HPSP for dental is a great deal. Medical side gets hosed by that GMO tour. No such thing on the dental side. Also, you figure most physicians want to specialize, whereas majority of dentists are in primary care. If you do the math as Bquad did, I think dental HPSP is not such a bad deal financially.

The sex thing... I've had sex for the past three years I've been in the military. Matter of fact, I've gotten laid a lot. I am lucky not to have been deployed though. I haven't been on the ship either. But my buddy gets laid every time he gets in port. Matter of fact, my buddy called me from Australia and told me about all the nice Aussie ladies and their great hospitality. So, I understand if you're in the sandbox that your best sex mate could be your right hand, but for the majority who aren't deployed, this shouldn't be an issue unless you are a loser who has a hard time getting laid to begin with.

Navydoc47 is correct in this fact- almost every general dentists do get out these days, and the majority of those who are staying in stay for training. I believe the retention rate was in single digits last I heard. It's still a heck of a deal in my opinion for dentists, but it definitely isn't for everyone and those interested should do thorough research and make a careful decision.
 
This is a fair post. All things need to be taken into consideration. If its not for you, fine. It was and is the right choice for me and my family. I love it.

Oh yea, I do get what ever material/equipment I need and I do whatever type of dentistry my patient's need.
 
good post....nobody ever wants to tell you the negatives...
 
Some of the things he listed as "negatives" may be negative to some, but to others are postitives.

We in the military are public servents sworn to defend the constitiution. Like it or not, we are held to a higher standard than our civilian counterparts.

These are the sacrifices we make when we raise our hand and swear (of affirm) the oath of commisioning.

Sure the UCMJ says you can't have an adulterous affair or have sex with a prostitute. I don't really see this as a negative.

Before you believe all of the 37 points, talk to one of us. I assure you its not nearly as malignant as he stated. I love my family and I spend quite a bit of time with them, even on the WEEKENDS!!

oh yea, I have always made money when I PCS'd
 
Having read this post again with my colleagues at work, I really hope that I don't ever get deployed... It seems most of those things listed is true if you get to the sandbox. We have this one guy who was deployed last year kinda agreeing with a lot of those points relating to deployment. This was done on a bad day at work...so, we were bashing the navy in general. Biggest gripe I have today is the constant changes that is the life in the military. It's the PCS season and the turnover really can make things difficult, especially when your new bosses are real POSs. Don't some of you active duty guys still feel like being in dental school some times? Still being told what to do... that post about that admin stuff stuck with me today. I'm on so many hit lists for admin things. Anyway, need to sleep this off. lol.
 
I have been checking this thread for a while and I decided to weigh in. I am prior service infantry and doing the HPSP at Pacific. During school having the scholarship is great, everyone knows that. What happens afterward is a great unkown. So I did some research. If you have never been to Dentaltown.com, you should go. It is a website similar to SDN but for practicing dentists. Someone posed the question to them if they would recommend the military or not. See for yourself what they said:

http://www.docere.com/MessageBoard/thread.aspx?s=2&f=109&t=45268&r=0#Post0

Most of the Dentists spoke positively of their experience.
 
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As expensive as most dental schools are, like Pacific I have to agree that going to school on the scholarship is great. It really helps when you can feed yourself instead of having to hope the financial aid dept decides to give a dam anytime soon.

There are negatives and positives, but name one thing in which there aren't. You have to do it knowing that you will have to take some crap from the military afterwards, but at least you won't have the burden of debt.
 
I'll tell you this.. having been practicing in the Army as a dentist.. all that was said earlier is true... the sandbox etc.. ALL TRUE! It's a horrible place to work... even worse for a female. We are treated like 18 yr old infantry privates.. can't think for ourselves.. and for those of us that do.. it's considered witchcraft.

I highly reccommend visiting a post before deciding on signing up.. it's not worth it.. I've missed out all this time on private practice. I'm getting out in April next year and won't be looking back.
 
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if you don't want to get deployed, don't join the navy. oh, also, this guy is a baby. over dramatic much? it's definitely not for everyone, weigh the pros and cons before making your decision. also, in todays navy, don't plan on being shoreside for 3-4 years of your committment.
 
if you don't want to get deployed, don't join the navy. oh, also, this guy is a baby. over dramatic much? it's definitely not for everyone, weigh the pros and cons before making your decision. also, in todays navy, don't plan on being shoreside for 3-4 years of your committment.

Here is the first to look at joining the military whether it be after school or with an HPSP or HSCP scholarship. If you aren't willing to make sacrifices for others (the mlitary and your country) and you don't want to get deployed (whether it is to the middle east or somewhere else in a supportive role), then DO NOT JOIN. THE MILITARY ISN'T FOR WIMPS!!!!! You have to make sacrifices. You really need to consider what you are willing to do for your country. If you are only in it for the attractiveness of the money, DO NOT JOIN!!!! You can always take out private loans on top of the federal ones. It just means you wil have to work a little harder to pay off the loans.
 
What are you basing this off of?

The Navy has been taking a bunch of the billets in the US and filling them with civilian contractors. This allows for a greater percentage of Navy dentists to fill billets that are operational. Therefore, compared to 5-10 years ago, you stand a greater chance of spending a portion of time filling one of these slots. You could spend time on a ship, with the Marines, or filling an overseas billet. The Navy has to distribute their assets where they are needed the most. Since they can fill CONUS slots with contractors, it allows them to fill other needs. Thus, the greater chance of having to make a sacrifice and possibly get deployed. So, to back up KDBuff and add a little to it, if you can't handle the idea of getting deployed, don't join the military. Deployments suck when away from the family. I've done two since 9/11. You'll really hate life if you only wanted to serve on land in the US.
 
The Navy has been taking a bunch of the billets in the US and filling them with civilian contractors. This allows for a greater percentage of Navy dentists to fill billets that are operational. Therefore, compared to 5-10 years ago, you stand a greater chance of spending a portion of time filling one of these slots. You could spend time on a ship, with the Marines, or filling an overseas billet. The Navy has to distribute their assets where they are needed the most. Since they can fill CONUS slots with contractors, it allows them to fill other needs. Thus, the greater chance of having to make a sacrifice and possibly get deployed. So, to back up KDBuff and add a little to it, if you can't handle the idea of getting deployed, don't join the military. Deployments suck when away from the family. I've done two since 9/11. You'll really hate life if you only wanted to serve on land in the US.

Interesting....thanks for the info. I just hear a lot of conflicting statements in these forums and in general so I was just trying to verify what KDBuff said. I know what I've gotten myself into so no worries here.

What branch are you a part of Acceptance King? Navy?
 
sorry i didn't expand, but i'll add to the previous post which summed it up pretty well. all of the first year LTs (those participating in AEGG/GPR or credentialing tour) have been pretty much told they will be going on an operational assignment after this year, ie. ship, marines, seabeas-those are two to three year billets depending where you are.

generally, for these assignments, from what I hear, I would plan on being deployed about half the time and at your command for half.
 
I'll tell you this.. having been practicing in the Army as a dentist.. all that was said earlier is true... the sandbox etc.. ALL TRUE! It's a horrible place to work... even worse for a female. We are treated like 18 yr old infantry privates.. can't think for ourselves.. and for those of us that do.. it's considered witchcraft.

I highly reccommend visiting a post before deciding on signing up.. it's not worth it.. I've missed out all this time on private practice. I'm getting out in April next year and won't be looking back.

I was a female dentist in the Navy, active duty from 82-85, and from what I've been told things are much better now than they were 25 years ago. But, like you, I did my active duty and hoped I wouldn't get called back during my inactive obligation in the Ready Reserves. Luckily, I didn't and fortunately was never deployed. I also have never looked back. Don't forget to request your Honorable Discharge papers as soon as you finish your inactive reserve commitment. It was only after I received them I felt I was done. As per another post, I'm not surprised that the military is using more civilian dentists for their domestic needs. However, this certainly ups the chance military dentists today may be deployed. Good Luck.
 
you dentists have it real good these days. Don't mess it up by joining the military. Here's an interesting article:

http://news.aol.com/story/_a/say-ahh-dental-fees-rise-care-falls/20071011092709990001

"Dentists’ incomes have grown faster than that of the typical American and the incomes of medical doctors. Formerly poor relations to physicians, American dentists in general practice made an average salary of $185,000 in 2004, the most recent data available. That figure is similar to what non-specialist doctors make, but dentists work far fewer hours. Dental surgeons and orthodontists average more than $300,000 annually.

“Dentists make more than doctors,” said Morris M. Kleiner, a University of Minnesota economist. “If I had a kid going into the sciences, I’d tell them to become a dentist.”
 
For a lot of us, it isn't about the money, the prestige, etc. If you are in it for the money, then don't join. But remember, if you take a scholarship, pay back your time, then go out to the civilian world, you will be better prepared for private practice than any dentist coming out of school.

The longer you are in, the better pay (just like private practice). An O-6 specialist makes pretty good money. Plus, when you retire after 20 yrs, you get a decent retirement pension immediately. You could go into private practice at say 47 y/o, get your private practice salary PLUS your $70K+/year pension with medical benefits.

Its not too bad, but you will never make $250K/year in the military

Remember it is not all for the $$$
 
interesting topic. Thought i might bump it and see where it goes.
 
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For a lot of us, it isn't about the money, the prestige, etc. If you are in it for the money, then don't join. But remember, if you take a scholarship, pay back your time, then go out to the civilian world, you will be better prepared for private practice than any dentist coming out of school.

The longer you are in, the better pay (just like private practice). An O-6 specialist makes pretty good money. Plus, when you retire after 20 yrs, you get a decent retirement pension immediately. You could go into private practice at say 47 y/o, get your private practice salary PLUS your $70K+/year pension with medical benefits.

Its not too bad, but you will never make $250K/year in the military

Remember it is not all for the $$$


i will be spending 8 more years in the army. that will give me approximately 15 years total. people keep saying that i might as well stay in for 5 more years to get my 20 and retirement. but the money i will make from retirement isn't worth it. i'll make much more by going into private practice 5 years sooner.

joining the military can't be about the money. the numbers don't add up, no matter how you spin them. period.

and as far as being more prepared for private practice goes....yeah, you will be able to do exams and amalgams faster.

most of the things listed are absolutely true. i don't have the energy to reply to all. many are overexaggerated though. and not all of those things are negatives.

i don't believe some to be true....i get pretty much any equipment or materials i want.....being told what areas are off-limits are treating doctors like children, but i wouldn't be going to those places anyway, so it's no skin off my back.....i thought C4 was fun....i made around $82K last year, but it's still not comparable to a private practice dentist - even when adding in the cost of dental school......
 
i will be spending 8 more years in the army. that will give me approximately 15 years total. people keep saying that i might as well stay in for 5 more years to get my 20 and retirement. but the money i will make from retirement isn't worth it. i'll make much more by going into private practice 5 years sooner.

joining the military can't be about the money. the numbers don't add up, no matter how you spin them. period.

and as far as being more prepared for private practice goes....yeah, you will be able to do exams and amalgams faster.

most of the things listed are absolutely true. i don't have the energy to reply to all. many are overexaggerated though. and not all of those things are negatives.

i don't believe some to be true....i get pretty much any equipment or materials i want.....being told what areas are off-limits are treating doctors like children, but i wouldn't be going to those places anyway, so it's no skin off my back.....i thought C4 was fun....i made around $82K last year, but it's still not comparable to a private practice dentist - even when adding in the cost of dental school......

So why not do some type of residency and make an additional 40-50k/yr for the last 3-4 years? Or is it just something that your not interested in? Just curious.
 
So why not do some type of residency and make an additional 40-50k/yr for the last 3-4 years? Or is it just something that your not interested in? Just curious.

UMKCDDS is doin oral surgery. If he gets out of the Army as soon as he can, at 15 years, he can make 500k as a civilian oral surgeon for each of those last five years. As an active duty oral surgeon he would only be making around 200k. So the five years difference of roughly 300k per year adds up to 1.5 million. It would take a long time for the retirement to make up the difference. He can join the Guard to finish out his 20 years if he really wants a retirement check.
 
I would be curious to see what the current "official" retention rates are for the 3 branches. The only Captains in the Army that I know that are staying beyond their initial commitment are specializing. I would also be curious to see an exit poll as to whether the people getting out would do it over again if they could go back in time and make the decision to join or not again. The people staying in would probably make the same decision again i'm guessing. Personally I would still join (although I wish I had joined the Air Force) because the main reason I joined wasn't money or to get school paid for, I joined to increase my chances of specializing.

I agree with what UMKCDDS said about being faster at exams and amalgams, since that is all I do. When I finished my AEGD they said I would be 5 years ahead of my dental school classmates that didn't do a AEGD or GPR. I don't buy that because all that knowledge and experience I gained in the AEGD has gotten rusty from not being used for two years, like they say "use it or lose it." When I work in private practice on my days off, it takes me 90 minutes to do a routine crown prep, which I am sure is much longer than what it would take my dental school classmates that do crowns frequently. The practice I work at doesn't do amalgams, so there goes the one thing I am fast at:( So I really don't think that the Army will better prepare you for private practice than being an associate right after school. I've heard that "after 4 years in the Army you will be better prepared for private practice than a new grad due to having four years of experience." That statement is so stupid because of course after four years you will be better prepared than someone with no experience. But if that new grad had four years of being an associate he/she would be much better prepared to open his/her own practice than someone coming out of the Army.
 
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I would be curious to see what the current "official" retention rates are for the 3 branches. The only Captains in the Army that I know that are staying beyond their initial commitment are specializing. I would also be curious to see an exit poll as to whether the people getting out would do it over again if they could go back in time and make the decision to join or not again. The people staying in would probably make the same decision again i'm guessing. Personally I would still join (although I wish I had joined the Air Force) because the main reason I joined wasn't money or to get school paid for, I joined to increase my chances of specializing.

I knew the numbers for Army and Navy 2 years ago, but I don't know today's numbers, so I won't comment on those. AF had 35% retention rate 2 years ago, but last year was even higher.
 
The majority of the 37 points is just bogus and petty. Most of the rest is exaggerated and a small amount is true.

Overall, this thread isn't worth reading.
 
I knew the numbers for Army and Navy 2 years ago, but I don't know today's numbers, so I won't comment on those. AF had 35% retention rate 2 years ago, but last year was even higher.


I'm not surprised that the AF retention rates are pretty good, I've always heard that the AF knows how to treat its people. My uncle is a LTC in the AF (not a dentist though) and he and his family have really enjoyed his 19 years in the AF. Also, an Army Captain I know that just got back from Iraq told me how crappy her situation was and how much better the deployed AF soldiers have it.
 
You know what I would like to see on this thread? An Army Dentist who has left the Army, been in private practice for a while, and posts his observations based on their new perspective.

This has been done on Dentaltown.com (I posted the link earlier in this thread). There is a lot to be said for hearing both sides of the story, but we aren't getting that here. Most of what we get here are military dentists with no full time private practice experience describing the cons of the military and the pros of private practice. Most of them do this under the guise of informing dental students "what it is really like."

Does anyone else see the irony in this? I dont mean to demean the experience or input of the Active Duty guys, it is valuable, but ultimately incomplete when making the types of comparisons and generalizations being made here.

It is as if private practice is this special place where everyone makes 125k a year (a fallacy) and life is peachy. Funny, that isn't the message I am getting from my recently graduated friends, or my mentor with 37 years in private practice.

So like I said earlier, is there anyone who has had both active duty and private practice experience willing to weigh in here for the benefit of all those seeking to make informed decisions? To only have private practice or active duty time is not enough, there needs to be both, and I want to hear their opinion based on this perspective. This needs to be done because this thread is getting borderline irrelevant and seriously pretentious/patronizing.
 
You know what I would like to see on this thread? An Army Dentist who has left the Army, been in private practice for a while, and posts his observations based on their new perspective.

This has been done on Dentaltown.com (I posted the link earlier in this thread). There is a lot to be said for hearing both sides of the story, but we aren't getting that here. Most of what we get here are military dentists with no full time private practice experience describing the cons of the military and the pros of private practice. Most of them do this under the guise of informing dental students "what it is really like."

Does anyone else see the irony in this? I dont mean to demean the experience or input of the Active Duty guys, it is valuable, but ultimately incomplete when making the types of comparisons and generalizations being made here.

It is as if private practice is this special place where everyone makes 125k a year (a fallacy) and life is peachy. Funny, that isn't the message I am getting from my recently graduated friends, or my mentor with 37 years in private practice.

So like I said earlier, is there anyone who has had both active duty and private practice experience willing to weigh in here for the benefit of all those seeking to make informed decisions? To only have private practice or active duty time is not enough, there needs to be both, and I want to hear their opinion based on this perspective. This needs to be done because this thread is getting borderline irrelevant and seriously pretentious/patronizing.

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I had a two-year HPSP in the Army, and incurred a three-year payback (one of which was an AEGD). I about to begin my sixth year in private practice. I wouldn't have done it any other way for a number of reasons. The four people with whom I most frequently speak are all "Army buddies" and are all great guys. I built stronger bonds with them in 1 to 2 years than with anyone in dental school. Anyway, the AEGD training was second to none. I was able to live in some great areas, and not so great areas. Yeah, you might get deployed somewhere, but that's part of the deal. I think you grow from all experiences you get,dental or not. Regardless of what they tell you, it isn't like you'll do veneers all day, but besides a select few, who does? More importantly, you'll have an opportunity to develop skills in endodontics (which I think is key) and operative.
 
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So like I said earlier, is there anyone who has had both active duty and private practice experience willing to weigh in here for the benefit of all those seeking to make informed decisions? To only have private practice or active duty time is not enough, there needs to be both, and I want to hear their opinion based on this perspective. This needs to be done because this thread is getting borderline irrelevant and seriously pretentious/patronizing.

there are three dentists in my clinic who had hpsp scholarships, then left the army/navy and went to private practice for between 10 and 20 years, then came back the practice as civilian contractors. there is a dentist here that had an hpsp scholarship years ago, then went to private practice for 10 years, and now has decided to come back onto active duty (because God told him to).

my father-in-law is a private practice dentist that was in the army.

many of my instructors in dental school were active duty military, then went to private practice and/or to the dental school.

i keep in touch with many friends from dental school that either started their own practices, bought a practice, or became an associate.

i'm not just talking out of my arse.
 
i'm not just talking out of my arse.

I am not saying any of the AD guys, like yourself, are talking out of your "arse"s, but I am saying you are not speaking from first hand experience, which is definitely needed in this discussion. You have to admit that at least.
 
there are three dentists in my clinic who had hpsp scholarships, then left the army/navy and went to private practice for between 10 and 20 years, then came back the practice as civilian contractors. there is a dentist here that had an hpsp scholarship years ago, then went to private practice for 10 years, and now has decided to come back onto active duty (because God told him to).

my father-in-law is a private practice dentist that was in the army.

many of my instructors in dental school were active duty military, then went to private practice and/or to the dental school.

i keep in touch with many friends from dental school that either started their own practices, bought a practice, or became an associate.

i'm not just talking out of my arse.

I agree with Jmick101 in that I have heard similar stories of guys who have a very different opinion of their compensation package in the military since they have now seen the other side. Not just monetary, but free time to spend with family, not having to worry about the running of a business, vacation time, putting away for retirement, etc.

What does the posts in DT being 2-3 years old have to do with anything? Most of the people in your above examples experienced the military and private practice dentistry over the past 10-20 years. Both of which have changed dramatically.

If the military sucks so bad then why have so many of them decided to return to it? Hmm.....shouldn't they all be financially "set" since they have been in practice for so long making the "big bucks"?

I'm just saying that there are many things that influence our experience in the military and private practice. Some people don't like the politics of military and the "other" duties one has to perform just like not everyone is good at managing their retirement future and running a business.

I really appriciate you AD guys sharing your experiences because for many the military is a big unknown. It would be nice to hear from some people like Jmick101 stated just to see if people's perceptions change once in private practice and discovering the "other" duties associated with it.
 
I am not saying any of the AD guys, like yourself, are talking out of your "arse"s, but I am saying you are not speaking from first hand experience, which is definitely needed in this discussion. You have to admit that at least.
I was in private practice for 2 years (as an associate) before I entered active duty. See my post above if you still want to know what someone with direct experience really thinks.

Private practice is a business, that you will either run or have a say in. You just can't leave the running of your business to someone else, you still have to be involved. Many people seem to think you just go into practice and never worry about anything, but that's just not the case. A friend of mine was doing that, and ended up finding out 2 years later his office manager/book keeper was embezzling money from the practice. That's money you'll never recover.

Getting paid based on production, which is a reality if you own a practice and in most associateships, can be a real roller coaster. When the economy is taking a dive, it affects your bottom line in private practice. People don't have the disposable income to have all that esthetic treatment and if your practice is based on that, it can suffer.

Current calculations on military retirement are they are approximatly equivalent to having $1.2-1.8 M invested (This doesn't include TSP or any other investments you may have). For Col's with 30 years of service it's pushing the equivalent of $3M invested. Don't take my word for it, talk to a financial advisor or do your own research with the multitude of retirement calculators out there. (I have some info from a presentation put together by an AF Col and a retirement advisor for dentsits). I'll try to post it if I can.

Training in the military is second to none. No other way to look at it. Personally, my life doesn't revolve around food, shopping, and itunes, so very few of the 37 items above have a real affect on my life for the short time I would be deployed to make a difference in my life.

Very few people want to deploy and be away from their families for 6 months to a year. However, it's a risk you take if you choose to serve your country. Maybe that's enough to get you to decide the military isn't for you, maybe not. Only you can make that decision. For me, it's a small blip on the radar screen of my life. I joined to serve and I've enjoyed every minute.

Make your own list of pros and cons and make the decision based on your own desires/needs. If you have questions, ask me and I'll try to help.
 
This has been an interesting thread even though it was brought back to life after a few years. I will preface my thoughts in that I have worked on both sides. It is my opinion that there is no finer population to work on then soldiers, sailors, and airmen. I truly hope to finish my dental career working on this population and hang up the drill.
Of course this is an internet forum so take everything with a grain of salt. The biggest thing to take into consideration is the service you join. Make no mistake, being an Army dental officer is significantly different then being an Air Force dental officer. I know several that I have served with that have transferred over to the AF and they frequently remind me of the differences. The majority of non dental opportunities is what makes the Army appealing to me. These are the same things that many will find to be negative.
To get the really experience of the young dental officer you need to talk to the O-3/O-4’s as they do the majority of the dental work. As people progress in their careers many take the “adminodontist” route and unfortunately there are numerous individuals in these ranks who by their leadership(?) challenge many young officers aspirations of staying in. The previous statement wasn’t a blanket statement on all upper leadership but an observation of some. The corps is in for very challenging times with an hour glass shape, many young HPSP, minimal people in the middle, and many “sitting” at the top collecting the check.
Just some random thoughts, but I do think there is a higher probability of being happier working on this population who sacrifice so much for all of us.
 
don't get me wrong. if i had to do it all over again, i wouldn't change anything....with that said, the point is still that the military isn't for everyone.

if you are in it for the money, or just for financial reasons - don't join.

if you aren't willing to give up some of your personal freedom, individuality and autonomy, to some degree - don't join.

if you don't like being told what to do and when to do it - don't join.

if you expect to be doing lots of crown and bridge and veneers - don't join. you will spend the vast majority of your time doing amalgams and exams, unless you are a specialist or a comprehensive dentist.

the facts are that retention is poor, and most of that is due to the (perceived, or actual) lack of comparable compensation when compared to civilian counterparts. being forced to move every few years, "just because it's time" also plays a part. deployments play a part. being treated like 17 y/o privates in many ways also plays a part.

but, i think all of these things have been touched upon already, in the "ask an army dentist thread."

....and there are still many reasons TO join the military also.
 
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I'm on the cusp of making a choice between a 4 year contract with the Navy, or doing financial aid for a year, and then a 3 year contract with the AF. I really don't care that much about the monetary aspect, I figure I'll live well either way, however I'm very concerned about the type of procedures I'll be doing. I want the opportunity to do different procedures, not just exams and amalgams. I'd hate for my skills learned in dental school to erode with time.
 
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I'm on the cusp of making a choice between a 4 year contract with the Navy, or doing financial aid for a year, and then a 3 year contract with the AF. I really don't care that much about the monetary aspect, I figure I'll live well either way, however I'm very concerned about the type of procedures I'll be doing. I want the opportunity to do different procedures, not just exams and amalgams. I'd hate for my skills learned in dental school to erode with time...my whole idea about doing military is "working out the kinks" before jumping into a private practice.

my advice (and short answer) is that if you are going to take an HPSP scholarship at all, you should do the 4-year scholarship. and, if you don't at least do an AEGD, you will almost certainly be stuck doing operative, exams and pulpectomies 99.9% of the time.
 
I'm on the cusp of making a choice between a 4 year contract with the Navy, or doing financial aid for a year, and then a 3 year contract with the AF. I really don't care that much about the monetary aspect, I figure I'll live well either way, however I'm very concerned about the type of procedures I'll be doing. I want the opportunity to do different procedures, not just exams and amalgams. I'd hate for my skills learned in dental school to erode with time...my whole idea about doing military is "working out the kinks" before jumping into a private practice.
We don't have amalgam lines in the AF. I will admit, that sometimes, the mission requires all General Dentists to step up and do more operative dentistry and exams to get Airmen out the door to a deployed location, but once the rush is over, we go back to a comprehensive general practice. An AEGD is a must in my opinion. You get a chance to pick up some great skills in that one year.

In the AF, we have a policy stating a base with specialists must provide some mentoring in those specialties to those without an AEGD or other post grad training under their belt. At some bases, that program may be more robust than at others, but the bottom line is we want you to enjoy your practice. Our current corps chief has made this a priority.
 
Can someone in Navy dentistry confirm OP's #1-#6?? I've been told much differently.

Also, salary of $67k???? How accurate is this, and hopefully this is AFTER tax
 
Can someone in Navy dentistry confirm OP's #1-#6?? I've been told much differently.

Also, salary of $67k???? How accurate is this, and hopefully this is AFTER tax

It's easy to calculate salary expectation. O-3 with your number of years of service /w 10k bonus per year and 350-400 additional allowances + BAH wherever you're stationed.
 
I have been dissappointed in the 2 year trained dentists in the Air Force....I have only been associated with 7 but I would take many of my 1 year residents over the 2 year trained ones. The two year ones seem to act like specialists but practice like they have no additional training. I've heard of good ones (one in particular) but I have never had the privilege of working with one. The ones I know abhor and run from clinical practice like the plague. They'd rather do administrative stuff, teach, pontificate rather than practice like a comprehensively trained dentist. Alot of time away from clinical practice doing other things, most of which aren't relavent. Someone should start a thread about positive things about military medicine....
 
I have been dissappointed in the 2 year trained dentists in the Air Force....I have only been associated with 7 but I would take many of my 1 year residents over the 2 year trained ones. The two year ones seem to act like specialists but practice like they have no additional training. I've heard of good ones (one in particular) but I have never had the privilege of working with one. The ones I know abhor and run from clinical practice like the plague. They'd rather do administrative stuff, teach, pontificate rather than practice like a comprehensively trained dentist. Alot of time away from clinical practice doing other things, most of which aren't relavent. Someone should start a thread about positive things about military medicine....
Sorry to hear that. I know people in all specialties that seem to want to get away from clinical dentistry, it's not just 2-year trained Dentists. As a program director, I have certain requirements (by ADA standard and etc...) that take my time from the clinic. However, I make the choice to work on some of it after hours and I still get to practice. I think some people look like they are running away from practice, but they have duties they can't get out of or that someone won't let them out of.

 
There are guys here who have gone months without seeing patients. They then collect about 20,000 per month from uncle Sam. They staff residents 1.5 days a week and sit in their office. When they found out that I saw a full book of patients AND staffed the resident, they almost acosted me. I told them I could and I couldn't stand to see my skills die on the vine. Plus, it is just fun seeing patients and VOLUME is one of the greatest teachers and so my residents benefit from a larger volume coming through the clinic.

The phenomenol A that used to be here at this base left before I got here. He was teaching, seeing patients, doing full mouth pedo rehab to give the C's a great experience. My assistant now used to be his assistant and he was doing expose and bonds, implants, pedo, ortho, the whole nine yards. My poor A's look at clinical practice like the SNCO's look at putting on scrubs and assisting.... won't happen. So, specialists get to do exams, teach residents, generate DWV's, lecture, AND offer training to guys who don't get into the c program. My A's send periodontally involved teeth to me when I've got 15 patients on the books for the day and it is the second and last sick call patient for the morning at it is 9:30 am. They use very little of their training to teach, mentor, and lead by example and show us that those two years really do make a difference in efficiency, scope, and productivity.

The real problem is that so much young energy in the clinic (c residents and other post c residents and non resident dentists) see these guys not doing exams (we've got guys who haven't done exams in years and then expect the commander to make the specialists do the exams!), not helping with sick call, seeing class I alagams for op 6 or 8 and then taking admin time for 2 days. Then teach for 1.5 days and otherwise mire in administration. The young dentists then say, the Air Force isn't for me because that is what I am going to grow into.

In my humble opinion, every single dentist save commanders at large bases should see patients 1.5 to 2 days per week required! I know a commander of my own specialty who commands at an overseas base (not a small one) and still practices 1.5 to 2 days per week! My own commander still steals away a few half days a month and does sedations and surgery. These other imposters are on "professional welfare" and their output shows it. They invent administrative stuff and meetings so that they don't have to don scrubs and actually be what they are most valuable as- a treating practitioner.

The problem is that you can't get rid of the dead weight. I bet we could do twice as much with 1/2 to 2/3 the dentists. Instead the dead weight stays around on the gravy train: hiding in "chief of this or that roles", evading quantifiable work, sucking up bonuses, pawning off work, and feeling good about themselves because they have "been around a while". They check in at 7:30 and leave at 4:30 but what happens in the middle is appauling. I bet if you took all that wasted money and made an incentive based practice focused on clinical output/quality/efficiency, you'd have a much more elite work environment. Now, instead, you have the repository where many go who couldn't make it in private practice or couldn't handle the pressure of private practice. They are the majority of the "leadership/chief of this or that" I've seen and they make a bad stereotype for the few who are real workers.

I am going to start a thread about "37 good things about air force dentistry" so I don't get too focused on the frusterations and problems.

"The difference between a leader and a manager is that leaders do the right things and managers do things right. The Air Force dental corp needs more LEADERS." -General Graham
 
Does this apply to any females who would are entering the army as a dentist and who's counterpart is already a soldier?
 
I have worked at bases located in several states as a contractor. Caring for active duty members of our armed services is meaningful work for me. I work side by side with military doctors and have more than 5 years experience to make my own conclusions as an outsider on the inside. The 37 reasons not to join are a good portrayal of why not to join the military.

All of the items he listed as 'truths' I have personally seen. If physicians loved military medicine, wouldn't they stay in? HIGH turnover has created some real physician shortage problems for the military. The only way the military can address the issue is by giving medical students dumb enough to join a $20,000sign on bonus. This keeps the pipeline full of folks who don't know better, but once their timely comitment is up- they're out! Sadly the medical students I supervise still graduate with almost $100,000 or more in student debt even with the military's help.

Google sign on bonus for military doctors and see what you get. Its true, NAVY is now offering $252,000 sign on bonus for family practice doctors wanting to sign up to be maimed in IRAQ. Since the payback is 4 years, this only averages out $173,000, still less than one can easily make on the outside. I have spoken with recruiters in the NAVY and AIRFORCE and they confirm that not even a trickle of outside board certified physicians are even inquiring. This is because most physicians relish the limited freedom they have after so many years of indebtedness and grueling sacrifices now simply want to enjoy what is left of their "younger years."

Don't even get me started on the physicians coming back from tours overseas now disabled. Let me quote one active duty doctor afer multiple tours: "Lets just say no doctor comes back that is not affected in a negative way by one's deployment."

I wish I had a good enough command of the English language to relay to you the the tragedy, grief, sadness, and anger that so many physicians have relayed to me and others about their frustration about being enslaved in the military medical system. Honestly, the words don't exist, but suffice it to say that a day doesn't go by that one physician or another doesn't relay to me disgust at military medicine.

Everything you can do in the military medical system you can do better on the outside.
 
I have worked at bases located in several states as a contractor. Caring for active duty members of our armed services is meaningful work for me. I work side by side with military doctors and have more than 5 years experience to make my own conclusions as an outsider on the inside. The 37 reasons not to join are a good portrayal of why not to join the military.

All of the items he listed as 'truths' I have personally seen. If physicians loved military medicine, wouldn't they stay in? HIGH turnover has created some real physician shortage problems for the military. The only way the military can address the issue is by giving medical students dumb enough to join a $20,000sign on bonus. This keeps the pipeline full of folks who don't know better, but once their timely comitment is up- they're out! Sadly the medical students I supervise still graduate with almost $100,000 or more in student debt even with the military's help.

Google sign on bonus for military doctors and see what you get. Its true, NAVY is now offering $252,000 sign on bonus for family practice doctors wanting to sign up to be maimed in IRAQ. Since the payback is 4 years, this only averages out $173,000, still less than one can easily make on the outside. I have spoken with recruiters in the NAVY and AIRFORCE and they confirm that not even a trickle of outside board certified physicians are even inquiring. This is because most physicians relish the limited freedom they have after so many years of indebtedness and grueling sacrifices now simply want to enjoy what is left of their "younger years."

Don't even get me started on the physicians coming back from tours overseas now disabled. Let me quote one active duty doctor afer multiple tours: "Lets just say no doctor comes back that is not affected in a negative way by one's deployment."

I wish I had a good enough command of the English language to relay to you the the tragedy, grief, sadness, and anger that so many physicians have relayed to me and others about their frustration about being enslaved in the military medical system. Honestly, the words don't exist, but suffice it to say that a day doesn't go by that one physician or another doesn't relay to me disgust at military medicine.

Everything you can do in the military medical system you can do better on the outside.

This is the dentistry forum, so if you don't have anything positive or negative to say about dentists than go away and scare off pre-meds thinking about joining.
 
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