3rd Year Med Student Loses Appeal

[2021Doctor]

Re: Sina Chenari v. George Washington University

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[Psai]

This sounds really stupid on both sides

 

[BurghStudent]

Pursuant to University procedures, Goldberg formed an
Honor Code Council subcommittee to investigate. After
holding a hearing, the subcommittee issued a report
recommending Chenari’s dismissal for academic dishonesty.
The subcommittee forwarded its recommendation to the
Medical Student Evaluation Committee, and in a written
statement to that Committee Chenari took responsibility for
his “deplorable behavior” toward the proctor, acknowledging
his “clear violation of the most basic rules of th[e]
University.” Chenari Dep. Ex. 37 at 1. He nonetheless asked
for leniency because, he insisted, his “behavior did not
involve deception” and he had no prior disciplinary
infractions. Id. After a hearing, the Committee unanimously
recommended Chenari’s dismissal. The Medical School Dean
then reviewed the reports, met with Chenari, and upheld the
recommendation of dismissal.

They pulled a Drake, and went 0 to 100 real quick. Seems kind of heavy-handed.

 

[ChymeofPassion]

"The proctor reported Chenari to the medical school’s
administration, as did another student present at the exam."
You know what they say about sniches

 

[mimelim]

This sounds really stupid on both sides

Interested to hear what you think the school did that was stupid.

Pursuant to University procedures, Goldberg formed an
Honor Code Council subcommittee to investigate. After
holding a hearing, the subcommittee issued a report
recommending Chenari’s dismissal for academic dishonesty.
The subcommittee forwarded its recommendation to the
Medical Student Evaluation Committee, and in a written
statement to that Committee Chenari took responsibility for
his “deplorable behavior” toward the proctor, acknowledging
his “clear violation of the most basic rules of th[e]
University.” Chenari Dep. Ex. 37 at 1. He nonetheless asked
for leniency because, he insisted, his “behavior did not
involve deception” and he had no prior disciplinary
infractions. Id. After a hearing, the Committee unanimously
recommended Chenari’s dismissal. The Medical School Dean
then reviewed the reports, met with Chenari, and upheld the
recommendation of dismissal.

They pulled a Drake, and went 0 to 100 real quick. Seems kind of heavy-handed.

For the sake of people who don't enjoy reading legal proceedings and the fact that these always devolve into the details of the case, this is my paraphrasing, please feel free to correct on facts or if I appear biased in how I translated.

#1 NBME exam finishes and student continues to work.
#2 Proctor asks student to stop and he refuses.
#3 Proctor tries to physically take the exam and the student blocks him and continues to work.
#4 Proctor/2nd student report #1-3 to the school.

#5 Associate dean interviews student about the incident.
#6 Student says, "needed to" finish, "probably made a mistake"
#7 Dean forms an honor code subcommittee as per university guidelines.

#8 Honor code subcommittee recommends dismissal on grounds of academic dishonesty to the MSEC.
#9 The student acknowledges "deplorable behavior" and "clear violation of the most basic rules of the University", requests leniency because "behavior did not involve deception" and has no history of other infractions.
#10 MSEC Recommends unanimously dismissal.
#11 Dean reviews MSEC report and tells student they are being expelled.

#12 Student appeals to provost saying, "behavior did not involve deception", "no prior infractions".
#13 Provost reviews reports and upholds expulsion.

#14 ~18 months later, Student sues the school for breach of contract (claims he did not violate the honor code) and violation of the Rehabilitation act (did not accommodate for his ADHD and discrimination against him because of his disability)
#15 Federal court decides in summary judgement in favor of the school.

#16 Case is appealed. Appeal court finds "obvious breach of Honor Code" and "sufficient evidence for dismissal"
#17 They reject all 4 of his arguments calling them "absurd" multiple times and even say to one of them, "so absurd that it hardly requires a response".

#18 Student argues that he told the school he had ADHD 2 months prior to text issue. Dean flatly denies this.
#19 Appeals court says that you can't throw out case in summary judgement based on "he said, she said," but that it doesn't matter because the student did not seek accommodation.
#20 Student acknowledges that he did not seek accommodation, but "repeated notifications to the administration created an obligation" to investigate and implement accommodations.
#21 Court finds that records "are abundantly clear" that accommodations were offered.
#22 School officials had offered him referrals for counseling and therapy twice, both times he did not follow up because he "did not have time".
#23 Appeals court upholds dismissal.


Could easily see a school going lighter on something like this, but by the same token, obvious violation is an obvious violation.

 

[SpartanWolverine]

Interested to hear what you think the school did that was stupid.



For the sake of people who don't enjoy reading legal proceedings and the fact that these always devolve into the details of the case, this is my paraphrasing, please feel free to correct on facts or if I appear biased in how I translated.

#1 NBME exam finishes and student continues to work.
#2 Proctor asks student to stop and he refuses.
#3 Proctor tries to physically take the exam and the student blocks him and continues to work.
#4 Proctor/2nd student report #1-3 to the school.

#5 Associate dean interviews student about the incident.
#6 Student says, "needed to" finish, "probably made a mistake"
#7 Dean forms an honor code subcommittee as per university guidelines.

#8 Honor code subcommittee recommends dismissal on grounds of academic dishonesty to the MSEC.
#9 The student acknowledges "deplorable behavior" and "clear violation of the most basic rules of the University", requests leniency because "behavior did not involve deception" and has no history of other infractions.
#10 MSEC Recommends unanimously dismissal.
#11 Dean reviews MSEC report and tells student they are being expelled.

#12 Student appeals to provost saying, "behavior did not involve deception", "no prior infractions".
#13 Provost reviews reports and upholds expulsion.

#14 ~18 months later, Student sues the school for breach of contract (claims he did not violate the honor code) and violation of the Rehabilitation act (did not accommodate for his ADHD and discrimination against him because of his disability)
#15 Federal court decides in summary judgement in favor of the school.

#16 Case is appealed. Appeal court finds "obvious breach of Honor Code" and "sufficient evidence for dismissal"
#17 They reject all 4 of his arguments calling them "absurd" multiple times and even say to one of them, "so absurd that it hardly requires a response".

#18 Student argues that he told the school he had ADHD 2 months prior to text issue. Dean flatly denies this.
#19 Appeals court says that you can't throw out case in summary judgement based on "he said, she said," but that it doesn't matter because the student did not seek accommodation.
#20 Student acknowledges that he did not seek accommodation, but "repeated notifications to the administration created an obligation" to investigate and implement accommodations.
#21 Court finds that records "are abundantly clear" that accommodations were offered.
#22 School officials had offered him referrals for counseling and therapy twice, both times he did not follow up because he "did not have time".
#23 Appeals court upholds dismissal.


Could easily see a school going lighter on something like this, but by the same token, obvious violation is an obvious violation.

Sounds like he did stupid things and had a shaky defense. To be expelled for panicking on a Shelf exam though... yikes. Can't help but wonder in a somewhat 'extreme' situation like this (was this really academic dishonesty?) if the school was basically looking for an excuse to get rid of him secondary to prior issues.

 

[Lannister]

#2 Proctor asks student to stop and he refuses.
#3 Proctor tries to physically take the exam and the student blocks him and continues to work.

I had this exact same experience as a TA. Dude got what he deserved.

 

[BurghStudent]

Interested to hear what you think the school did that was stupid.



For the sake of people who don't enjoy reading legal proceedings and the fact that these always devolve into the details of the case, this is my paraphrasing, please feel free to correct on facts or if I appear biased in how I translated.

#1 NBME exam finishes and student continues to work.
#2 Proctor asks student to stop and he refuses.
#3 Proctor tries to physically take the exam and the student blocks him and continues to work.
#4 Proctor/2nd student report #1-3 to the school.

#5 Associate dean interviews student about the incident.
#6 Student says, "needed to" finish, "probably made a mistake"
#7 Dean forms an honor code subcommittee as per university guidelines.

#8 Honor code subcommittee recommends dismissal on grounds of academic dishonesty to the MSEC.
#9 The student acknowledges "deplorable behavior" and "clear violation of the most basic rules of the University", requests leniency because "behavior did not involve deception" and has no history of other infractions.
#10 MSEC Recommends unanimously dismissal.
#11 Dean reviews MSEC report and tells student they are being expelled.

#12 Student appeals to provost saying, "behavior did not involve deception", "no prior infractions".
#13 Provost reviews reports and upholds expulsion.

#14 ~18 months later, Student sues the school for breach of contract (claims he did not violate the honor code) and violation of the Rehabilitation act (did not accommodate for his ADHD and discrimination against him because of his disability)
#15 Federal court decides in summary judgement in favor of the school.

#16 Case is appealed. Appeal court finds "obvious breach of Honor Code" and "sufficient evidence for dismissal"
#17 They reject all 4 of his arguments calling them "absurd" multiple times and even say to one of them, "so absurd that it hardly requires a response".

#18 Student argues that he told the school he had ADHD 2 months prior to text issue. Dean flatly denies this.
#19 Appeals court says that you can't throw out case in summary judgement based on "he said, she said," but that it doesn't matter because the student did not seek accommodation.
#20 Student acknowledges that he did not seek accommodation, but "repeated notifications to the administration created an obligation" to investigate and implement accommodations.
#21 Court finds that records "are abundantly clear" that accommodations were offered.
#22 School officials had offered him referrals for counseling and therapy twice, both times he did not follow up because he "did not have time".
#23 Appeals court upholds dismissal.


Could easily see a school going lighter on something like this, but by the same token, obvious violation is an obvious violation.

I agree. Student could have been smarter about this.

Just seems like there was a lack of malicious intent. "Academic dishonesty" is a little misapplied imo. Now the system is out one doctor, he's out $XYZ and some years lost. There was a better way for the school to uphold it's standards and let this guy learn from his foolishness.

 

[mimelim]

Sounds like he did stupid things and had a shaky defense. To be expelled for panicking on a Shelf exam though... yikes. Can't help but wonder in a somewhat 'extreme' situation like this (was this really academic dishonesty?) if the school was basically looking for an excuse to get rid of him secondary to prior issues.

I agree. Student could have been smarter about this.

Just seems like there was a lack of malicious intent. "Academic dishonesty" is a little misapplied imo. Now the system is out one doctor, he's out $XYZ and some years lost. There was a better way for the school to uphold it's standards and let this guy learn from his foolishness.

Personally, I don't think that it is disputable that he violated the honor code. I likewise think that it should be up to the school to determine if a particular honor code violation is deserved of expulsion or some other punishment. In this case, the Dean, MSEC (composed of peers/other faculty I assume) and the provost, all unanimously thought that it was appropriate. They know more details than we do, so personally, I defer to the group directly involved at least some (if not most of whom) are independent and have no stake (as the courts said).

I would read this differently than you though. He knew at the time what he was doing was wrong. Despite indications from the proctor x3, he continued to work. We can argue back and forth about whether this is correctable or not. We can also argue the benefits and the negatives of a harsh policy when it comes to being a deterrent. In my experience as an educator, many students don't take academic dishonesty seriously because there is a sense that most other students don't take it seriously and it is often easy to get away with things. I've seen things at every level, from my classmates in high school to my co-residents now. It is pervasive and people generally don't stop, even after being reprimanded.

I will also say that all of those people that decided that dismissal was the correct course, knew the costs. They know the cost of losing a student for the school (they have a vested interest in keeping him). They also know the personal costs to that student. Yet, they all thought that this was the right call.

 

[SpartanWolverine]

Personally, I don't think that it is disputable that he violated the honor code. I likewise think that it should be up to the school to determine if a particular honor code violation is deserved of expulsion or some other punishment. In this case, the Dean, MSEC (composed of peers/other faculty I assume) and the provost, all unanimously thought that it was appropriate. They know more details than we do, so personally, I defer to the group directly involved at least some (if not most of whom) are independent and have no stake (as the courts said).

I would read this differently than you though. He knew at the time what he was doing was wrong. Despite indications from the proctor x3, he continued to work. We can argue back and forth about whether this is correctable or not. We can also argue the benefits and the negatives of a harsh policy when it comes to being a deterrent. In my experience as an educator, many students don't take academic dishonesty seriously because there is a sense that most other students don't take it seriously and it is often easy to get away with things. I've seen things at every level, from my classmates in high school to my co-residents now. It is pervasive and people generally don't stop, even after being reprimanded.

I absolutely agree that it is up to the school; I generally have confidence that the administration and those involved in student dismissals/retention have logical and thorough reasoning behind what they do. As they say in the verdict, the issuance of a diploma means that the school has good faith in a student to perform at a level that reflects well on their institution. Having served on my school's disciplinary committee, I can also vouch that most cases like this are not isolated events in so far as the students pulling off this kind of thing often have long, documented histories of questionable actions.

 

[LutGholein]

I had a girl in my calculus class a few years back panic at the end of our first calculus exam that semester---our professor told us to stop after the timer went off and began collecting papers-- I stopped and looked around and saw her scribbling for about a good 5 mins as people left the exam room and she "accidentally" forgot to turn in her exam so she turned it by the time everyone left(except the professor). She did this throughout the semester(not stopping after quizzes were over).

When people panic they do the most bizarre things-- this girl seemed like a nice enough person-- she eventually went on to work for NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory and I guess when I read this I feel bad for the guy because it may have been his first academic infraction and I think the price is deep--he should be reprimanded--I just wish I knew how did this lead to the unanimous decision of kicking him out--i'm sure it's for good reason no doubt but i'm curious what discussion occurred in that committee.

 

[BurghStudent]

Hell I know people from undergrad who had cheat circles and in a few years, one of them will be doing boob jobs and tummy tucks. Some get through smh.

 

[Lannister]

When people panic they do the most bizarre things

It's one thing to panic and keep working after time is called. But I think it's a whole different issue when you physically block the proctor from taking your exam. That, to me, is evidence of malicious intent.

 

[Goro]

In my, and others experiences, this is highly unlikely to have been his first infraction. It's more like the "tip of the iceberg".

My gut suspicion is that if this were truly a first time offense, the school would have been more likely to suspend him for a year, make him get counseling, and probably attend some sort of ethics classes. Most med schools go out of their way to salvage student careers, especially once one gets past Boards.

I am surprised at how many of you think that your word is worthless. Written agreements seem to mean nothing.

I guess when I read this I feel bad for the guy because it may have been his first academic infraction and I think the price is deep--he should be reprimanded--I just wish I knew how did this lead to the unanimous decision of kicking him out--i'm sure it's for good reason no doubt but i'm curious what discussion occurred in that committee.

 

[Lawpy]

Interested to hear what you think the school did that was stupid.



For the sake of people who don't enjoy reading legal proceedings and the fact that these always devolve into the details of the case, this is my paraphrasing, please feel free to correct on facts or if I appear biased in how I translated.

#1 NBME exam finishes and student continues to work.
#2 Proctor asks student to stop and he refuses.
#3 Proctor tries to physically take the exam and the student blocks him and continues to work.
#4 Proctor/2nd student report #1-3 to the school.

#5 Associate dean interviews student about the incident.
#6 Student says, "needed to" finish, "probably made a mistake"
#7 Dean forms an honor code subcommittee as per university guidelines.

#8 Honor code subcommittee recommends dismissal on grounds of academic dishonesty to the MSEC.
#9 The student acknowledges "deplorable behavior" and "clear violation of the most basic rules of the University", requests leniency because "behavior did not involve deception" and has no history of other infractions.
#10 MSEC Recommends unanimously dismissal.
#11 Dean reviews MSEC report and tells student they are being expelled.

#12 Student appeals to provost saying, "behavior did not involve deception", "no prior infractions".
#13 Provost reviews reports and upholds expulsion.

#14 ~18 months later, Student sues the school for breach of contract (claims he did not violate the honor code) and violation of the Rehabilitation act (did not accommodate for his ADHD and discrimination against him because of his disability)
#15 Federal court decides in summary judgement in favor of the school.

#16 Case is appealed. Appeal court finds "obvious breach of Honor Code" and "sufficient evidence for dismissal"
#17 They reject all 4 of his arguments calling them "absurd" multiple times and even say to one of them, "so absurd that it hardly requires a response".

#18 Student argues that he told the school he had ADHD 2 months prior to text issue. Dean flatly denies this.
#19 Appeals court says that you can't throw out case in summary judgement based on "he said, she said," but that it doesn't matter because the student did not seek accommodation.
#20 Student acknowledges that he did not seek accommodation, but "repeated notifications to the administration created an obligation" to investigate and implement accommodations.
#21 Court finds that records "are abundantly clear" that accommodations were offered.
#22 School officials had offered him referrals for counseling and therapy twice, both times he did not follow up because he "did not have time".
#23 Appeals court upholds dismissal.


Could easily see a school going lighter on something like this, but by the same token, obvious violation is an obvious violation.

So looks like that student did something really stupid and malignant. The school isn't at fault because looks like their unanimous decision at various levels was based on multiple sources of evidence demonstrating that student's ill behavior. And the courts agreed with the school's decision, even noting the student's arguments were stupid and baseless.

In a nutshell, the student was stupid and malicious and was rightly kicked out.

 

[Astra]

Hell I know people from undergrad who had cheat circles and in a few years, one of them will be doing boob jobs and tummy tucks. Some get through smh.

of course the cheater would become a plastic surgeon

either that or derm

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

In my, and others experiences, this is highly unlikely to have been his first infraction. It's more like the "tip of the iceberg".

My gut suspicion is that if this were truly a first time offense, the school would have been more likely to suspend him for a year, make him get counseling, and probably attend some sort of ethics classes. Most med schools go out of their way to salvage student careers, especially once one gets past Boards.

I am surprised at how many of you think that your word is worthless. Written agreements seem to mean nothing.

This is just your guess that it is not his first infraction. I think if more existed, it would have come out in the case.

I think this makes both the student and the school look terrible. Dismissing the student over misjudgment of a few seconds is ludicrous. Not listening to instructions is also pretty bad. Not a case for dismissal but definitely for being reprimanded.

 

[MareNostrummm]

If he was humble and apologetic about it during the initial inquiry he probably would have been given a second chance.

 

[ace_inhibitor111]

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCOURTS-dcd-1_14-cv-00929/pdf/USCOURTS-dcd-1_14-cv-00929-0.pdf

More details on the case. Makes it a lot more clear what really happened.

 

[Lawpy]

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCOURTS-dcd-1_14-cv-00929/pdf/USCOURTS-dcd-1_14-cv-00929-0.pdf

More details on the case. Makes it a lot more clear what really happened.

Interested to hear what you think the school did that was stupid.



For the sake of people who don't enjoy reading legal proceedings and the fact that these always devolve into the details of the case, this is my paraphrasing, please feel free to correct on facts or if I appear biased in how I translated.

#1 NBME exam finishes and student continues to work.
#2 Proctor asks student to stop and he refuses.
#3 Proctor tries to physically take the exam and the student blocks him and continues to work.
#4 Proctor/2nd student report #1-3 to the school.

#5 Associate dean interviews student about the incident.
#6 Student says, "needed to" finish, "probably made a mistake"
#7 Dean forms an honor code subcommittee as per university guidelines.

#8 Honor code subcommittee recommends dismissal on grounds of academic dishonesty to the MSEC.
#9 The student acknowledges "deplorable behavior" and "clear violation of the most basic rules of the University", requests leniency because "behavior did not involve deception" and has no history of other infractions.
#10 MSEC Recommends unanimously dismissal.
#11 Dean reviews MSEC report and tells student they are being expelled.

#12 Student appeals to provost saying, "behavior did not involve deception", "no prior infractions".
#13 Provost reviews reports and upholds expulsion.

#14 ~18 months later, Student sues the school for breach of contract (claims he did not violate the honor code) and violation of the Rehabilitation act (did not accommodate for his ADHD and discrimination against him because of his disability)
#15 Federal court decides in summary judgement in favor of the school.

#16 Case is appealed. Appeal court finds "obvious breach of Honor Code" and "sufficient evidence for dismissal"
#17 They reject all 4 of his arguments calling them "absurd" multiple times and even say to one of them, "so absurd that it hardly requires a response".

#18 Student argues that he told the school he had ADHD 2 months prior to text issue. Dean flatly denies this.
#19 Appeals court says that you can't throw out case in summary judgement based on "he said, she said," but that it doesn't matter because the student did not seek accommodation.
#20 Student acknowledges that he did not seek accommodation, but "repeated notifications to the administration created an obligation" to investigate and implement accommodations.
#21 Court finds that records "are abundantly clear" that accommodations were offered.
#22 School officials had offered him referrals for counseling and therapy twice, both times he did not follow up because he "did not have time".
#23 Appeals court upholds dismissal.


Could easily see a school going lighter on something like this, but by the same token, obvious violation is an obvious violation.

so i take it that mimelim's summary is effective tl;dr for the details of the events?

 

[Lucca]

While the facts of the case seem pretty clear, I also get the feeling that this guy was on the admin's radar and when presented with such a clear violation they took the opportunity to drop the hammer.

 

[BeddingfieldMD]

This definitely can happen. I remember our proctors being really hard core when it comes to standardized exams during med school. You might get a slide with bubbling in one last answer after they call time, but no way would they let you do a couple dozen like that. And it seems like he probably panicked and was refusing to turn in his exam and such. He was halfway through his MS3 year, so he should have known med school is no joke when it comes to the exams. When time is up, it's up.

 

[Turkishking]

I had this exact same experience as a TA. Dude got what he deserved.

Yeah I remember reading your post about that.

 

[RogueBanana]

" When the proctor attempted to physically remove the exam, the plantiff became aggressive, covered his exam with both arms and continued to bubble in answers despite being told three times to put his pencil down."

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes....

I don't understand how you could show a proctor that level of disrespect, in addition to blatant disregard for the rules of the institution and expect things to work out for you.

Did he think she'd just say: "Oh man, you got me, your answers are on the sheet! I can't do anything now, good job kid, you're a clever little devil"

 

[mwsapphire]

*sigh*This is why you should transfer answers as you go, I've been afraid of situations like this since HS. But, I do believe the punishment was a bit *too*harsh.

 

[mwsapphire]

I absolutely agree that it is up to the school; I generally have confidence that the administration and those involved in student dismissals/retention have logical and thorough reasoning behind what they do. As they say in the verdict, the issuance of a diploma means that the school has good faith in a student to perform at a level that reflects well on their institution. Having served on my school's disciplinary committee, I can also vouch that most cases like this are not isolated events in so far as the students pulling off this kind of thing often have long, documented histories of questionable actions.

True. I generally think that when people get stomped on for what seems like minimum dishonesty, there were more likely than not bound to do something more dishonest later on, but there's always some doubt I guess.

 

[Goro]

There's plenty of data that shows that dishonest doctors start out as dishonest students, and that's why my clinical colleagues especially take professionalism very seriously.

The perverse thing about this case is that the worst outcome if the student had not acted out would have been an F, followed by a remediation. OK, so no Gen Surg in his future, but he'd still end up as a doctor!

True. I generally think that when people get stomped on for what seems like minimum dishonesty, there were more likely than not bound to do something more dishonest later on, but there's always some doubt I guess.

 

[mwsapphire]

There's plenty of data that shows that dishonest doctors start out as dishonest students, and that's why my clinical colleagues especially take professionalism very seriously.

The perverse thing about this case is that the worst outcome if the student had not acted out would have been an F, followed by a remediation. OK, so no Gen Surg in his future, but he'd still end up as a doctor!

He could have even retaken it, couldn't he have? Risking a fail/retake is soooo much better than risking this kind of disciplinary action.

 

[Goro]

Of course.

He could have even retaken it, couldn't he have? Risking a fail/retake is soooo much better than risking this kind of disciplinary action.

 

[RogueBanana]

There's plenty of data that shows that dishonest doctors start out as dishonest students, and that's why my clinical colleagues especially take professionalism very seriously.

The perverse thing about this case is that the worst outcome if the student had not acted out would have been an F, followed by a remediation. OK, so no Gen Surg in his future, but he'd still end up as a doctor!

My thoughts exactly!
He had an opportunity to take the loss, learn from it, and try again.

Sure he would have to say goodbye to being top of his class, but it sounds like his grades weren't great anyway, so its not like that one bad test would be the thing that stops him from matching surgery. He probably didn't have a chance in the first place.

Which makes the situation even more annoying because he made it 100x worse than it had to be, by refusing to accept the consequences of his actions (or lack thereof lol). He could have done the right thing, re-taken it, and ended up matching the same as if it hadn't happened.

 

[Lannister]

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCOURTS-dcd-1_14-cv-00929/pdf/USCOURTS-dcd-1_14-cv-00929-0.pdf

More details on the case. Makes it a lot more clear what really happened.

After reading that I have more sympathy for the guy. He deserved to be expelled, but I seriously cannot imagine being expelled from medical school. Just the thought makes me sick. It would probably feel like your entire world was ending.

 

[RogueBanana]

After reading that I have more sympathy for the guy. He deserved to be expelled, but I seriously cannot imagine being expelled from medical school. Just the thought makes me sick. It would probably feel like your entire world was ending.

I mean, he did it to himself. Hard to feel bad for someone who acted like a child when they had the option to act like an adult.

 

[Lannister]

I mean, he did it to himself. Hard to feel bad for someone who acted like a child when they had the option to act like an adult.

Like I said, he deserved it. Doesn't mean you can't feel bad for him. It was probably the worst day of his life when he got the expulsion notice.

 

[RogueBanana]

Like I said, he deserved it. Doesn't mean you can't feel bad for him. It was probably the worst day of his life when he got the expulsion notice.

of course, that would easily be the worst day of my life if I were him. I'm not saying we can't empathize with a man losing his dream. But we can take warning from his actions so that we do not share his fate.

 

[Psai]

It seems pretty overboard to expel a third year medical student for not following the rules for this test. Maybe he had a pattern of behavior but that's irrelevant.

 

[DokterMom]

He could have even retaken it, couldn't he have? Risking a fail/retake is soooo much better than risking this kind of disciplinary action.

Of course.

Bubbling in a few extra answers is a stretch.
Continuing after the first "Stop!" up until the proctor reached out to take the exam is a further stretch.
I can understand a panic response. Not good, but understandable -- Fail the course-worthy

But physically preventing the proctor from taking the exam? A way over the line increment in behavior and a failure to correct that demonstrates lack of judgement and poor impulse control. This guy was a lawsuit waiting to happen.

 

[Goro]

Indeed. This was a guy who would have been on SDN in a few years with a post in the residency forum entitled "Dismissed from residency program. What to do??"

Bubbling in a few extra answers is a stretch.
Continuing after the first "Stop!" up until the proctor reached out to take the exam is a further stretch.
I can understand a panic response. Not good, but understandable -- Fail the course-worthy

But physically preventing the proctor from taking the exam? A way over the line increment in behavior and a failure to correct that demonstrates lack of judgement and poor impulse control. This guy was a lawsuit waiting to happen.

 

[LoveBeingHuman:)]

I think the main issue is the disregard for policies. The policies are there to ensure fairness. If someone is willing to blatantly disregard a policy he/she clearly knew was important, what kind of things will this person think will be ok to disregard once he or she becomes a physician. If time had been called up and he was still working, but stopped as soon as the proctor told him to (and he subsequently apologized and said he didn't hear the proctor call times up), that may still be ok. But this was conscious disregard for policy.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Not sure why so many people seem to think the school was out of line or overreacted. He didn't just bubble in a few answers past time. He physically tried to prevent the proctor from taking the exam. That isn't just a lapse in judgement for a few seconds.

And if he does have a pattern of this behavior, it is completely relevant. That shows even more that he is the type of person who should not be practicing medicine.

 

[DoctorCrush]

I guess my question now is, what are his options from this point onward?

 

[Pagan FutureDoc]

I guess my question now is, what are his options from this point onward?

Three years of med school debt? Let's hope he has a marketable degree to fall back on.

 

[LoveBeingHuman:)]

@gyngyn @mimelim

Do you think the school would have been more lenient if this were a school test rather than a standardized, national test?

 

[Dr.Kat]

Not sure why so many people seem to think the school was out of line or overreacted. He didn't just bubble in a few answers past time. He physically tried to prevent the proctor from taking the exam. That isn't just a lapse in judgement for a few seconds.

And if he does have a pattern of this behavior, it is completely relevant. That shows even more that he is the type of person who should not be practicing medicine.

i agree 100%

 

[Lawpy]

It seems pretty overboard to expel a third year medical student for not following the rules for this test. Maybe he had a pattern of behavior but that's irrelevant.

What? It's totally relevant, and it looks to be the case here. The dean, honors committee, provost, courts etc all had access to that student's records when making the decision in expelling that student. The student was simply a shady, deceptive, self-serving, and stupid liar (all statements made/implied in the court reviews). And the decision to expel him that was justified and upheld was very likely based on the student's past history of malignant behavior.

Not sure why so many people seem to think the school was out of line or overreacted. He didn't just bubble in a few answers past time. He physically tried to prevent the proctor from taking the exam. That isn't just a lapse in judgement for a few seconds.

And if he does have a pattern of this behavior, it is completely relevant. That shows even more that he is the type of person who should not be practicing medicine.

The shelf exam incident was likely the final straw that led the school to decide to expel that student. And rightly so. That student was malicious and self-serving.

 

[Jalby]

I tell everybody that you have to do two things to get admitted to medical school. you have to prove you can handle the coursework/pass the tests and you also have to prove you are a good likeable person. he failed on both counts.

He was already of effective probation for not being able to do well on teh tests. He delayed the start of his 3rd year for months because of his performance.

And then when he refused to comply with the orders of taking a standardized test, it showed that he didn't have the judgement to be a doctor. There are plenty of times that a doctor must make a decision that would be good for him but bad for the patient, and you have to be able to trust that the doctor does what is good for the patient. Bubbling in the answers to get the extra two minutes is a blatant refusal to abide by the rules. I don't believe for a second he "Forgot" to bubble in the answers. It's not like this is his first standardized test.

I wish him the best in luck in not being a doctor.

 

[mwsapphire]

Indeed. This was a guy who would have been on SDN in a few years with a post in the residency forum entitled "Dismissed from residency program. What to do??"

That made me laugh much harder than it should have....

 

[mwsapphire]

I think the main issue is the disregard for policies. The policies are there to ensure fairness. If someone is willing to blatantly disregard a policy he/she clearly knew was important, what kind of things will this person think will be ok to disregard once he or she becomes a physician. If time had been called up and he was still working, but stopped as soon as the proctor told him to (and he subsequently apologized and said he didn't hear the proctor call times up), that may still be ok. But this was conscious disregard for policy.

Of course that would have been okay.
Even if he was secretly hoping the proctor wouldn't notice, actively preventing him from taking the exam makes this look pre-meditated and now like some kind of mistake. When I was in HS, I almost made a "transfer" like error ( but I made it). If he was doing practice tests, he would have realized transferring answers is part of the time. He did this so he could have extra time.

 

[mwsapphire]

@gyngyn @mimelim

Do you think the school would have been more lenient if this were a school test rather than a standardized, national test?

I was thinking that too. I think the answer is yes.

 

[gyngyn]

@gyngyn @mimelim

Do you think the school would have been more lenient if this were a school test rather than a standardized, national test?

This behavior would be equally aberrant and unacceptable in any graded test.

 

[Goro]

What exactly would a student have to do to deserve an expulsion, in your view?

It seems pretty overboard to expel a third year medical student for not following the rules for this test. Maybe he had a pattern of behavior but that's irrelevant.