4 day week, full time job

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nexus73

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Has anyone worked out a 4 day a week employed job that classifies you as full time for benefits? I'm working my first job out of residency and working a lot more than I would like. The money is good, but I would trade it for more time away. The biggest concern is health insurance benefits, with minor concern about qualifying for PSLF loan repayment.

My dream is a 4 day week, with 6 straight hours of clinic (8am-2pm), with whatever admin/paperwork time they would allow to get me up to a full time status. Perhaps a pipe dream. How many hours does the VA require to get full time benefits?

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The last job I had offered a 4 day work week with FT benefits, however, those were 10 hour days. I would imagine 24 hours per week would get you around 120-130k per year with partial or no benefits.


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The hospitals where I work offer benefits, at a slightly higher but still reasonable rate, for 0.5 FTE and up. On acute units it can be challenging to secure part-time work unless you pair up with another provider to cover a patient load although I have seen a smaller units where two providers would cover for each other one day a week so they could work 4 days. The larger clinics in my area who offer benefits usually require 32h a week although I have heard there can be room for negotiation depending on the need and your reputation. I have always worked one 0.5 FTE for the benefits and several other part-time jobs. My strategy is to decide what I'm willing to offer and then find an employer open to it which so far has not been difficult.
 
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My dream is a 4 day week, with 6 straight hours of clinic (8am-2pm), with whatever admin/paperwork time they would allow to get me up to a full time status.
Why would you think you could count as full time with only 24 hours of billable work per week?
 
Why would you think you could count as full time with only 24 hours of billable work per week?
Because of you can get some place to give you 2 hours admin time per day you're up to 32 hours and that might count.
 
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I think inpatient is the best way to work 5-6 hours a day and get a FT salary. You will probably need to work M-F though. I do not know of any outpatient opportunities that can pay that much per hour. This may be why a mix of inpatient and outpatient often pays the most.


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I think inpatient is the best way to work 5-6 hours a day and get a FT salary. You will probably need to work M-F though. I do not know of any outpatient opportunities that can pay that much per hour. This may be why a mix of inpatient and outpatient often pays the most.


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There is the call portion too. Rounding on weekends.
 
There is the call portion too. Rounding on weekends.
Agreed. I wish they wouldn't call it "on call". When I'm "on call" on the weekends I'm "working" seeing all the patients, and I'm also on call for consults and the ED.

Has anyone had any luck getting their hospital to hire locums to cover the weekends so the regular inpatient docs don't have to?
 
at some hospitals, especially in rural areas, patients aren't always seen on the weekends by a psychiatrist. sometimes just a medicine hospitalist/NP does a sick call and does medical H and P's on the new patients.
 
Agreed. I wish they wouldn't call it "on call". When I'm "on call" on the weekends I'm "working" seeing all the patients, and I'm also on call for consults and the ED.

Has anyone had any luck getting their hospital to hire locums to cover the weekends so the regular inpatient docs don't have to?

Two of of the hospitals where I work have no weekend requirements for attendings on the acute units. This has been good for both recruiting and retention. One uses residents and PRN Psychiatrists/NPs the other hired weekend providers as staff so while paying a premium its cheaper than locum rates and better for continuity of care.
 
Because of you can get some place to give you 2 hours admin time per day you're up to 32 hours and that might count.
One of the drawbacks to being a doctor is that the only thing you can bill for is actually seeing patients. If you're spending time on their clock not seeing patients, you're not bringing in revenue. So why would they pay you for that time?

I think inpatient is the best way to work 5-6 hours a day and get a FT salary. You will probably need to work M-F though.
Any tips on finding such a job? My current outpatient job is a real slog, and I feel that the kind of inpatient job you're describing is what I need to do next. But how to find one? This seems like one of those things which, if you ask directly about it, will make you look bad. "So, will this REALLY be a... ahem... you know, FULL-time job? Wink wink, nudge nudge."
 
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Any tips on finding such a job? My current outpatient job is a real slog, and I feel that the kind of inpatient job you're describing is what I need to do next. But how to find one? This seems like one of those things which, if you ask directly about it, will make you look bad. "So, will this REALLY be a... ahem... you know, FULL-time job? Wink wink, nudge nudge."

Contact inpatient hospital admins or HR for job openings? Check online ads? Physician recruiters? I am not the best person for this question. Many people I know get jobs through contacts or connections from their residency program.


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One of the drawbacks to being a doctor is that the only thing you can bill for is actually seeing patients. If you're spending time on their clock not seeing patients, you're not bringing in revenue. So why would they pay you for that time?


Any tips on finding such a job? My current outpatient job is a real slog, and I feel that the kind of inpatient job you're describing is what I need to do next. But how to find one? This seems like one of those things which, if you ask directly about it, will make you look bad. "So, will this REALLY be a... ahem... you know, FULL-time job? Wink wink, nudge nudge."

Find out who is working the inpatient units at your local medical centers. Hopefully you will know someone or have a colleague who knows someone and can do an intro. Although the pace of seeing patients isn't as non-stop as outpatient and there are some 5-6h days that is not the norm. Most are around 8 hours with call and possible weekends as Shikima noted. I don't think there is anything wrong with asking approximately how many hours they are averaging but would resist any nudging. :)
 
One of the drawbacks to being a doctor is that the only thing you can bill for is actually seeing patients. If you're spending time on their clock not seeing patients, you're not bringing in revenue. So why would they pay you for that time?

for inpatient jobs, the psychiatrist is generating revenue by being the attending for the patients, allowing the hospital to bill the daily "bed rate". In addition, the psychiatrist often supervises social workers, psychologists, and the general unit staff. Going by direct billing by the psychiatrist severely underestimates his value to the hospital.
 
for inpatient jobs, the psychiatrist is generating revenue by being the attending for the patients, allowing the hospital to bill the daily "bed rate". In addition, the psychiatrist often supervises social workers, psychologists, and the general unit staff. Going by direct billing by the psychiatrist severely underestimates his value to the hospital.
Yes, but the OP said that he wanted to work in a clinic.

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Are you child trained or willing to see young adolescents?
No and no. I would treat children if I didn't have to deal with the parents.

I currently work at an inpatient unit, and somedays are shorter than others, some 5-6 hour days, but probably 9 hours on average, with weekend work once a month. I would love this job if I could cut my patient load to 8 or 9 per day and never work another weekend.
 
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One of the drawbacks to being a doctor is that the only thing you can bill for is actually seeing patients.

True in the clinical service world. But NOT true in various other positions outside of such settings. I do work in other health industries (part-time) in which MDs/DOs can use their skills in a variety of non-clinical applications. Have you explored Non-Clinical Careers for Physicians by SEAK, Inc. for example? May often require at least 3 years of clinical work/experience beyond residency though.

If I was getting somewhat..eh,"disenchanted" with traditional work/opportunities, I would look here. Your opps are more robust than mine as a Ph.D., but I have really enjoyed working (as much as one can enjoy "work") this side of the healthcare system.
 
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Find out who is working the inpatient units at your local medical centers. Hopefully you will know someone or have a colleague who knows someone and can do an intro. Although the pace of seeing patients isn't as non-stop as outpatient and there are some 5-6h days that is not the norm. Most are around 8 hours with call and possible weekends as Shikima noted. I don't think there is anything wrong with asking approximately how many hours they are averaging but would resist any nudging. :)
I have already done inpatient as a locums doc, so I know in general what it's like. Based on my experience, if the max number of patients I could ever have per day was 12, and it were often fewer than that, I could get done before 5 every day. The ideal would be about 9.

(How people handle these inpatient jobs where you have 16-20 patients per day is beyond me.)

No and no. I would treat children if I didn't have to deal with the parents.

I currently work at an inpatient unit, and somedays are shorter than others, some 5-6 hour days, but probably 9 hours on average, with weekend work once a month. I would love this job if I could cut my patient load to 8 or 9 per day and never work another weekend.
Yeah, that's a little more than what I would want, too, but if you're not counting a lunch hour--i.e., you're actually there on average 9 hours per day, 8 to 5--that's better than I'm doing in my current outpatient job. I just do not seem to be geared toward getting notes done during allotted appointment times, so the last patient walks out the door at 4:59 and I still have a bunch of notes to finish.
 
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Oh. well, then he is going to get paid mostly for actually seeing patients.

Mostly true, but in less well-served areas clinics may pay you substantially more than they are able to collect from your direct billing if they require a medical director in order to be able operate. One of the jobs I considered was at a clinic in Vermont that had gone for two years without a psychiatrist, requiring extremely expensive use of locums in order to meet both regulatory and clinical needs. They were willing to offer a great deal for a four day week and there was no doubt that my medicaid billing would have been much less than the salary.
 
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I have already done inpatient as a locums doc, so I know in general what it's like. Based on my experience, if the max number of patients I could ever have per day was 12, and it were often fewer than that, I could get done before 5 every day. The ideal would be about 9.

(How people handle these inpatient jobs where you have 16-20 patients per day is beyond me.)

I wonder if you were getting hammered because it was a hospital using locums? The only place I worked that has needed to use locums on a regular basis can't keep psychiatrists, red flag there, and the patient load is horrendous.

The other inpatient units I work average about 8 patients although there are usually varying responsibilities such as CL or PHP and possibly an ED consult divided by the attendings but even with that its rarely more than 2 additional encounters each which is very manageable in an 8 hour day. As for lunch I usually scarf something down after I round, while charting, so not a leisurely experience but food none the less. One hospital has no weekend requirement and splits weeknight call 3 ways. The other requires 1 weekend a month with 2 days off during the week after your weekend and weeknight call split 4 ways. I feel inpatient can be more hectic but far less tedious than OP and has the opportunity to give a light day here or there when you can actually leave early. Fortunately or unfortunately if you have worked a unit for any length of time a significant number of patients will be known to you so not especially cumbersome even as a new admit.
 
I wonder if you were getting hammered because it was a hospital using locums? The only place I worked that has needed to use locums on a regular basis can't keep psychiatrists, red flag there, and the patient load is horrendous.

The other inpatient units I work average about 8 patients although there are usually varying responsibilities such as CL or PHP and possibly an ED consult divided by the attendings but even with that its rarely more than 2 additional encounters each which is very manageable in an 8 hour day. As for lunch I usually scarf something down after I round, while charting, so not a leisurely experience but food none the less. One hospital has no weekend requirement and splits weeknight call 3 ways. The other requires 1 weekend a month with 2 days off during the week after your weekend and weeknight call split 4 ways. I feel inpatient can be more hectic but far less tedious than OP and has the opportunity to give a light day here or there when you can actually leave early. Fortunately or unfortunately if you have worked a unit for any length of time a significant number of patients will be known to you so not especially cumbersome even as a new admit.
To clarify, the inpatient units where I did locums were not ones where the doc had 16-20 patients per day. I was just saying I've heard of places like that. Once I was considering moving back to the metro Northeast area where I'm from, a saturated market, and I talked to the medical director of an inpatient unit there, and it had that kind of patient load. No thanks. Satisfying my mother's nagging about seeing me more often is not worth a life like that.

The busiest inpatient unit where I did locums was supposed to have 5 psychiatrists, and when we were all there, the maximum number of patients per day per doc was 12, but we often didn't quite have our max. With 12, I could be out by 5 if I really hustled. Unfortunately, when one doc was out, which happened for several weeks in the few months I was there, thanks to vacations and 2 other docs each having a death in the family, the max was 14, AND we were virtually guaranteed to be at our max every day, which was hell for me.

The "middle" unit in terms of busy-ness was a 16 bed unit, but there was a PA who could see some of the follow-ups. So I typically only saw about 9 per day, but I had to do all the admissions, so with a 16 bed unit, 4 admissions per day was not uncommon. Also, unlike the aforementioned hospital, this place ALWAYS filled all the beds overnight. So, whereas with the other place I could always at least hope for a light day, at this place, if I discharged 4 patients one day, I walked out of there knowing I'd have 4 admissions to do the next morning.

The lightest was only intended to be a half day of work. It was a small geriatric unit; I forget the actual number of beds but IIRC there were typically 5-7 patients. And being geriatric psych patients, most of them at any given time were just hanging out waiting for nursing home placement. Piece of cake.
 
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