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40% of DO intern spots fill

Discussion in 'Medical Students - DO' started by fuegorama, Feb 13, 2007.

  1. fuegorama

    fuegorama Senior Member
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    From the prez.
    "Today is “Match Day”! Match Results are in for the 2007 AOA Match Program for osteopathic medical students seeking internship and residency positions. Approximately 40% of the osteopathic graduates matched into an osteopathic internship position! The National Matching Services, Inc., which coordinates the osteopathic Match, reports that a total of 1,575 individuals participated in the 2007 Match; 181 did not match and 217 will serve in the military. 1,508 (includes military) of the 3,173 total osteopathic graduates did not participate in this year’s Match. The AOA intern/resident registration program includes 2,688 approved positions, and 2,189 funded positions, 925 of which were unfilled as of today's match. Learn more about the Match on DO-Online. Congratulations to all osteopathic medical students who matched today!"

    This was posted in another thread. It needs its own.
    Thoughts?
     
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  2. Kuba

    Physician 10+ Year Member

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    you mean 63% of positions fill? or 40% of osteopathic grads match into AOA internship?
     
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  3. VALSALVA

    VALSALVA sh*t or get off the pot
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    You know where I stand Feug...it's pathetic, but mostly just plain unprofessional of the AOA to not provide, at minimum, the same amount of post-grad slots as there are osteopathic graduates.
     
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  4. VALSALVA

    VALSALVA sh*t or get off the pot
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    Yes and Yes
     
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  5. Pansit

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    Forgive me for I am still new but what exactly happens to the students that do not end up matching? Do they go ahead towards the allopathic match and what happens if they dont match there? Do they have to wait for next year or can they still try to claim the unfilled positions? Thanks
     
  6. Doc2007

    Doc2007 Member
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    If you do not match into Osteopathic or Allopathic program, you can scramble to get a spot. If you cannot match through scramble, you will have to wait a year and apply next year.
     
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  7. S_Talos

    S_Talos Member
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    Let's be realistic, where will the funding come from? The government won't fund residencies that aren't being filled every year. Even if AOA could get them, they won't stay funded unless they all fill, which they won't. If only 1575 applied for AOA residencies, how can they justify having 1000 more, when they already have 2200 slots?
     
  8. S_Talos

    S_Talos Member
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    Out of 1575 that applied for osteopathic residencies only 181 did not match. So 89% of those that took part in the osteopathic match, matched.

    So 40% out of all grads matched in osteopathic residencies, 6% tried but did not match in osteopathic. I assume the other 54% chose to participate in the allo match only.

    That isn't as bad as some people are making it out, when you consider these but look at what it really means.

    Considering that as the statement says, 925 slots are still unfilled as of now? How does that demonstrate a need for more?
     
  9. Pansit

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    well it depends on the residencies...if they are very good programs in sought after locations then maybe they would fill up. If you are just going to start up programs just for the sake of starting them, then nobody will try to match into them. They would have to be great programs to begin with. What about increasing AOA residencies in the most competitive fields (ortho, neurosurg, derm, plastics..etc)...I doubt those spots would go unfilled everyyear.
     
  10. olliemctuffy

    olliemctuffy Member
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    What % of the residencies are in Michigan and PA? Moreover, what % of positions other than rotating internship, fp and im are in those 2 states? If the AOA wants us to do AOA residencies, they need to start putting them in more locations and start offering more than fp and im. For example, there are no residencies of any kind in the states of WA or OR. Want to go there- can't go AOA. In all of New England, there is only FP, IM, NMM and the ubiquitous rotating internship. About that rotating internship, some are at sites where it is the only offering, meaning you'd go there and be a scutmonkey for a year, then have to move somewhere else. No thanks!
     
  11. Kuba

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    Im also assuming some of those 6% that did not match only ranked a couple programs and decided if they didn't get thsoe they would go to allo match, right?
     
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  12. VALSALVA

    VALSALVA sh*t or get off the pot
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    Not everyone wants to to FP, Peds, or IM, so those open slots will always be open. It seems like once critical mass is reached for those primary care slots, it's hard to talk anyone else into jumping into one (especially when they want to do something like, say...ENT or EM or what not).

    The AOA should put a moratorium on opening up new schools for "x" amount of years. Use that time to develop the internships and residencies already in existance, convert some of those primary care residency slots into non-primary care spots (by doing hard physician recruitment) and perhaps open a few more. Imagine what the numbers are going to look like when the new schools start pumping out grads! What would happen if, all of a sudden, the M.D.'s made it harder for D.O's to match into their programs. Imagine what would happen if more D.O. grads actually did participate in the Osteo. match. There are lots of scenarios which could be disasterous.

    I guess what I'm most irked by is the AOA's blatant hypocrisy in wanting us to remain distinct, but not providing all of it's members with ways to do it.
     
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  13. Pansit

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    Maybe it's there mantra of generating "primary care" physicians that prevent any of this from happening. I guess they are just hoping that at some point there will be so many graduates that they will end up taking those primary care positions that are currently unfilled
     
  14. jhug

    jhug 1K Member
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    ockham's razor says there are only a few reasons programs don't fill...
    1- poor location
    2- poor quality
    3- poor field of medicine
    80% of AOA residencies are in 5 states with little/nothing west of Ohio...an unacceptably reprehensible geographic disparity. The quality of AOA residencies is of major concern. I refuse to allow our profession settle for mediocrity and, therefore, inequality...if you are training in a small rural hospital with 25 beds...with a preceptor...you are not being adequately trained for current medicine...maybe in AT Still's day of blood-letting and mercury that was sufficient, but in today's world, that level of teaching is deplorable and unacceptable...it will lead to undertrained DO's and, ultimately, will be the demise of our profession...we must stop accepting mediocrity as the standard and demand more of our leaders and our GME...
    How many ortho, derm, radiology, anesthesia, surgery, path, spots are there? How many IM/FM/Peds spots are there west of Ohio?
    If a program has not filled in 3, 4, 5 years the funding for those spots should be taken and put to some use...opening quality residencies...especially out west where they will fill (if they are of quality) If the AOA can't do that...they need to get out of medicine and let someone who can come in and do the job.
     
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  15. uro

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    Is this a problem with a lot of the osteopathic residencies? Or just one or two?
     
  16. jhug

    jhug 1K Member
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    obviously there will be both AOA & ACGME residencies that are questionable...when you look at the 950+ spots that didn't fill you can see where they are and what they are about...
     
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  17. Shodddy18

    Shodddy18 Senior Member
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    Your argument is so twisted...
    40% of osteopathic slots did not fill! Why would the AOA create more post grad programs if 40% of them are not filled every year. I think it would be irresponsible for the AOA to staff and fund more residency slots, when 40% of existing slots go unfilled each year. If anything the AOA should consider putting more money into existing slots to improve them. Many of the existing programs are great programs, but some are not. Both the great and the not so great programs that already exist should be improved before new programs are developed. Maybe then 40% would not go unfilled, and we could discuss the opening of new programs.
     
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  18. uro

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    Yeah, that sounds like a lot. I still don't quite understand it though. For example, here's one that I just pulled out at random from do-online.org:

    PA 125286 PCOM/PHILADELPHIA CONSORTIUM PHILADELPHIA EM 3 1 2

    If I'm reading this right it shows that this program in Philly had 3 available slots, but only 1 of them filled. Philly seems like a nice town to get a lot of exposure to EM, and I see in the EM forum that a lot of DO students want to go into to EM, so I don't understand why they just didn't go to this one?
     
  19. Jack Daniel

    Jack Daniel In Memory of Riley Jane
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    Some here are criticizing the AOA for its lack of residencies, etc. My question is this: does the AOA really have the ability to create new residencies or start up a specialty residency anywhere it wants? I don't think it does. I'm under the impression that residencies have more to do with federal funding issues than the AOA.
     
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  20. jhug

    jhug 1K Member
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    it's tough to know why...what are the hours like, how much didactic teaching will you get, what is the pay like (this has been huge...there is a joint program where DO's make thousands less than ACGME residents...in the same hospital!). One thing is for sure...you put that program in a major hospital west of philli and i GUARANTEE that it will fill every single year!!! Which i guess is what i mean when i say "more residencies"...we need more quality residencies that reflect well on our profession, in areas that are desirable, in fields that are desiarable. Pumping more $$ in rural podunk, PA preceptor-based community center will do nothing to attract more to that program...we should take the funding from those spots, and extra $$ the AOA has to improve things, and put it toward something that will work.
     
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  21. uro

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    OK, so I think that's what I wasn't understanding. I assumed that since it listed the location as "Philadelphia" it was in a major hospital in Philly. I didn't realize it was in rural locations. But I guess that makes sense, since "consortium" refers to a group.

    But I guess it still surprises me to see that people would rather not go into EM at all than to go to these DO programs. Especially considering the competiveness of the MD EM programs. Strange.
     
  22. Wizard of Oz

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    I'm not certain of this, but I'm pretty sure it's George Bush's fault. :laugh:

    Valsalva--great name, I hope that you don't damage your eardrums.
     
  23. BklynWill

    BklynWill EM Attending
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    The argument is that there are not enough AOA-approved specialty programs. The vast majority of unfilled AOA programs are Family Medicine because many DO grads would rather try matching into an ACGME specialty residency than be forced into FM by the AOA.

    The solution to this issue is the approval of a joint match and the closing of unpopular AOA FM residencies. I know this scenario would not make the AOA or traditional DOs happy, but I think it is a more ethical alternative than forcing DO grads into primary care in order to justify the existance of our profession. :mad:
     
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  24. Jack Daniel

    Jack Daniel In Memory of Riley Jane
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    Ethical? 8 of the top primary-producing schools in the nation are DO schools. It's not a secret; nor is it coercion. I think students know going into a DO school that many programs are geared towards primary care training.

    Right now, I'm thinking about primary care. I'm also a first year. I may eat my words big time in 2-3 years. But, if I decide to pursue some specialty other than primary care and have to put up with the headaches of competing for limited surgical or anesthesia or .... residencies, I knew going in that DO schools stress primary care. I don't think the AOA is acting unethical at all.
     
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  25. Shodddy18

    Shodddy18 Senior Member
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    Dont get me wrong, I do agree with you. I think that the AOA should close unpopular underfunded sub quality programs and open up better programs, including specialties outside of the primary care realm. However that was not the subject of the OP... The goal of the AOA is to help produce more primary care physicians. So expecting them to close primary care programs to open up other specialties would be like expecting the NRA to sponsor gun control bills in congress... it goes against their goals. I know that this analogy is not completely accurate, because the AOA does endorse specialty training, but you cant just expect them to start closing primary care programs and to support other specialties. You also cant expect them to merge the osteopathic match with the allopathic one, because the ACGME does not support the agenda of the AOA. I know that this is hard for us as students because most of us are not as political as the AOA, and just want to get into a good residency program. But thats how it is.
     
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  26. RajMahal

    RajMahal Guitar Hero
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    i think it would be nice, but let's be realistic...
    first of all, increasing the number of super-specialized spots would not be congruent with the osteopathic philosophy.
    secondly, by increasing the number of spots, the fields themselves will not be as competitive.
    i think what we have here is the problem that people who are going to do something like internal med or FP would rather do it at a large, university based allopathic institution versus a small community osteopathic hospital, given the choice. And in primary care these days, it IS an option for DO's to train at such places.
    If you can handle critically ill patients in a tertiary care setting, you can handle just about anything at a community hospital. the converse is not true.
    i'm not saying one is better than the other, I'm just providing an explanation for why the DO spots don't fill. Why would DO's try and go to allopathic programs instead of of their OWN osteopathic training programs?
    things like derm, ophtho, plastics, etc are different.
    realistically, we just don't have a legitimate chance at most of the allopathic spots. granted, there are exceptions, but they are few and far between.
     
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  27. BklynWill

    BklynWill EM Attending
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    Yes, many DOs practice in primary care and I will probably be one of them by choice. I also agree that the AOA markets the wellness and preventive model of osteopathic medicine. However, I'm not sure that the goal of the AOA is to produce primary care physicians- I would hope it spends more time on legislation and public relations.

    Encouraging the philosophy of primary care medicine is highly school-dependent and still remains a personal decision. I never signed a contract with my profession or school stating that I intend to practice primary care. If I did, I probably would have signed up with the NHSC a long time ago.

    I strictly believe in increasing opportunities for all DO grads, regardless of what the AOA prefers. If the AOA continues to control the fate of its new graduates, we know where else we can go, if need be...

    And the major MD associations have expressed a positive opinion on the idea of the joint match. Even the Council of Osteopathic Student Government Presidents, SOMA, and AMSA support the joint match. The only body against it is the AOA.
     
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  28. San_Juan_Sun

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    I used to support the joint match. However, I feelit doesn't really benefit DO students pursuing the more competitive specialties until we have equal access in the application process.
     
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  29. Shodddy18

    Shodddy18 Senior Member
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    I agree. The AOA seems to be the only governing body opposed to a joint match. Like I said before, it is because the AOA has its own agenda. Combining the two match programs would set this agenda back. I do however believe that producing more primary care physicians is high up on their agenda. This is supported not only by their words, but by their actions. The AOA did not just arbitrarily decide to oppose a joint match. Why else would they keep so many primary care residencies open when they fail to fill year after year.
     
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  30. Shodddy18

    Shodddy18 Senior Member
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    It would benefit DO's. It will not help you to get a more competititve residency, but it would allow you to rank both programs. As it stands now, if your first choice program was allopathic, and your last choice was osteopathic, and both programs ranked you number one on their list, you would match in your last choice becuase the osteopathic match takes place first and supercedes the allopathic match. Althogh it wont improve your chances of matching into a specific program, it will allow you to match into the highest program on your list that you would have matched into without all osteopathic programs ranked behind allopathic programs from getting "first dibbs" on you regardless of that programs position on your list.
     
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  31. Jack Daniel

    Jack Daniel In Memory of Riley Jane
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    Primary care is approaching a critical point politically--it's either going to be seen as integral to our healthcare system and those residencies will become much sought after; or, it will continue to be marginalized in favor of specialists. The healthcare scene these next few years will be interesting to watch.

    Who knows, maybe 20 years from now those people in the AOA will be hailed as visionaries. :eek:
     
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  32. toothless rufus

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    If its even still around.
     
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  33. The Virginian

    The Virginian Junior Member
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    The A.O.A. may be fading more quickly than we think. If we look closely at the transitional year residencies, we can see that many are at traditional M.D. university medical centers. It seems that the "Osteopathic" internship is probably little more than another year of rotations, as an entry into a M.D. residency. If we subtract this number from the 40% claimed to be matching into A.O.A. residencies, the number is really much lower.

    I suspect that many of these residencies were begun by the medical centers to fill slots and keep their numbers up, as opposed to any initiative by the A.O.A.
     
  34. BMW19

    BMW19 Senior Member
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    Lets be honest. A majoritiy of the DO students that don't want to do DO residencies state it is b/c of the one year req. internship. Whether you think it is valuable or not is a debate for another time. But until something is done about this it will be a problem.

    BMW-



     
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  35. The_Sensei

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    Am I the only one who is surprised that 40% spots filled? I'm surprised that that many slots actually filled!
     
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  36. Pansit

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    What percentage of the 40% are non-primary care residencies?
     
  37. FutureSoxDoc

    FutureSoxDoc New Member
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    No one does this. As a fourth year, I have friends that applied to both allo/osteo programs. You rank your programs and than decide what match to go in. If DO is 1, good for you. If it is #4, than you go allo.
     
  38. Pansit

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    Thanks...this is really hard to read though...lol
     
  39. Pansit

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    i see..didnt notice that...thanks
     
  40. Shodddy18

    Shodddy18 Senior Member
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    I know. That is exactly how it works, and that is why a joint match would be beneficial... so people could do that, rank both allo and osteo programs. If your first five choices were allo, and 5-10 were osteo it would be a no brainer... apply allo. Where a combined match would be beneficial is if say, choice one and two were allo, 3 and 4 osteo, and 5 allo. With a separate match, most would decide to do the allo match. In this instance, if you were to not match your top two choices, you would be stuck with your fifth choice, because you were not in the osteopathic match. If they were combined, you likely would have matched your third choice, an osteo program, and not had to go with the fifth choice.

    Here is another crappy situation. If your first 4 choices are allopathic, something competetive, most osteopaths would want to do the osteomatch as a backup. With separate matches, Osteopaths can not do both matches, because they will probably match one of choices 5-8 (osteopathic), and this would automaticaly supercede the allo match. This would be particularly craptacular if you were lucky and would have matched one of the top 4 allo choices. If the match was combined, applicants would be able to rank both, and have the ability to match higher on their list, and still have a fall back.

    Dont get me wrong, I'm only going to apply to osteopathic programs, but it would be beneficial to many classmates if the osteo match were combined with the allo match.
     
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  41. Pansit

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    If this joint-match were to occur would allopaths be allowed into AOA residencies? would they have to take the COMLEX?
     
  42. DrMom

    DrMom Official Mom of SDN
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    Of the 922 unflled spots, 534 are traditional rotating internships and 180 are family medicine. I think this does a good job of demonstrating the problem. Simple reallocation of at least some of these spots to more competitive specialties would lead to a better match rate.

    As far a open spots in the more competitive specialties, they'll fill between now and after the MD match next month.
     
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  43. Pansit

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    I see how much the spots actually do not favor the non-primary care residencies...sorta expected that already...thanks
     
  44. Shodddy18

    Shodddy18 Senior Member
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    First of all, I dont think a joint match will ever occur. Maybe someday ERAS will allow osteopaths to participate in both match programs, and choose which program to attend after the match... but this will still not likely occur. And if it ever did occur, MD's would not take the comlex, and would most likely not be able to match into AOA programs.
     
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  45. Pansit

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    So under this circumstance the joint-match would only benefit DO's, since the AOA residencies would still be there if we wanted them...
     
  46. medmom

    medmom Senior Member
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    Well, for me, I am going to be a first year in the fall. I have NO interntion of doing the osteopthic math. Why? I am from Colorado and plan on returning. I do want to fo fp however, even at that there are VERY few residency positions in the Mountain states. The one that there is here in Colorado is in Pueblo, the armpit of Colorado. Seems more like NM if you were there, and I think there is one in Colorado Springs. Nada in Montana, Idaho, Utah, 1 in Wyoming (also an armpit). Therefore I will be doing the allo match where there are 3 residencies in Colorado I would like to go to, 1 in Idaho, 1 in Montana, etc. To me the problem is not the # of residency spots, but the location of them. Like a pp said, what about those west of Ohio?
    Oh yeah, and I don't want to do a rotating internship where I will just have to move my family again after a year.
     
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  47. Jack Daniel

    Jack Daniel In Memory of Riley Jane
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    I'm jealous. I'm betting there are some outstanding rural medicine programs in that area.
     
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  48. DrMom

    DrMom Official Mom of SDN
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    And your post demonstrates what has consistently been a huge factor in choosing specific residency programs to apply to...location.

    Most residencies (MD and DO) will do a good job of training us in our respective specialties, so we look at programs that are in areas where we'd like to live.
     
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  49. Pansit

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    Completely agree here...if the AOA wants to increase public exposure to DO's they should start by placing DO's in places that do not have significant DO exposure by placing residencies in that area. Even though I live in chicago I might still have to go for an acgme residency because there just arent that many programs.
     
  50. ifellonaplunger

    ifellonaplunger Membership Revoked
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    true dat
     

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