400k+ to 500k+ to become a dentist. 1 million dollar to become an orthodontist???

[hahadino2771]

here is a very interesting analysis from financial expert's point of view. After working my butt off for a few years, I found that I only paid back the interests* of my students loans that have been accumulating from my first day at dental school. Now, I still have long ways to go to pay back the principal portion of my student loans.

Save early or you will back pay back more = )

good luck to current dental students

https://www.studentloanplanner.com/number-1-job-america-dentist/

https://www.studentloanplanner.com/cost-estimates-of-dental-school/

It Costs A Million Dollars to Become an Orthodontist – The Keen Dentist

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[sgv]

here is a very interesting analysis from financial expert's point of view. After working my butt off for a few years, I found that I only paid back the interests* of my students loans that have been accumulating from my first day at dental school. Now, I still have long ways to go to pay back the principal portion of my student loans.

Save early or you will back pay back more = )

good luck to current dental students

https://www.studentloanplanner.com/number-1-job-america-dentist/

https://www.studentloanplanner.com/cost-estimates-of-dental-school/

It Costs A Million Dollars to Become an Orthodontist – The Keen Dentist

Yeah, that's how interests works.

 

[deleted696582]

I'm one of the people who has advocated for going the least expensive route in schooling if possible. I completely agree that undergrads and dental students should try to save their money wherever possible. This is where research and planning is key if you truly want to live that "dentist lifestyle" most of us have dreamed about.

With that being said, I think the article about the cost to become an orthodontist is a bit misleading. The author's scenario is one where the orthodontist attends NYU undergrad, NYU dental school, and NYU ortho residency. That's probably the most expensive route possible. That's something completely within your control.

Even if your family isn't helping with your undergrad expenses, it's feasible to come out of undergrad with 40k of loans or less. Internships and college jobs can lower this further. In-state schools definitely allow for this relatively low debt load. The name of your undergrad school has almost no bearing on your acceptance to dental school, and I'm inclined to think it's the same for other healthcare schools too.

It's still possible to come out of dental school with less than 350k of debt if you don't go to a private school and you try to go in-state. There are plenty of other ways to save money during school as well. I don't know much about ortho residency costs, but all in all, you could become an orthodontist for roughly 600k to 700k. That's still a crazy amount, but it's just that the article was little bit misleading. It shouldn't have to cost that much.

I'd imagine someone can get by as a debt-laden specialist and dentist just fine, but your lifestyle choices (family expenses and practice, house, and car purchases) for a while would probably be heavily impacted by your debt.

 

[2TH MVR]

Funny how some of us Orthodontists paid less than 100K in school loans and I'm not the brightest guy in the world.

Scholarship for 2 of the 4 yrs undergrad. Had a part-time job to pay for living expenses. Inexpensive state dental school (Nebraska) where the cost of living is ridiculously inexpensive. Stipend during ortho residency. It can be done. If you are not a capable student ... then you will end up paying a lot for the private and for-profit schools. NYU? Seriously? Talk about skewed data.

 

[osseointegration]

In a stipend-based ortho residency now with 245k debt total (undergrad+dental school). Go to your state school, kids.

 

[jda02624]

In a stipend-based ortho residency now with 245k debt total (undergrad+dental school). Go to your state school, kids.

How many stipend-based ortho residency programs are there? I didn't think there were many left.

 

[hahadino2771]

I have no idea.. it was shocking for me to see the opportunity cost of becoming an orthodontist, especially in this economy, job market, and pool of overproduced orthodontists.

Is there any recent grad orthodontist who wants to share your experience?

 

[Munks]

How many stipend-based ortho residency programs are there? I didn't think there were many left.

There are only a few stipend programs (off the top of my head 3 NY hospitals, Rochester, UCLA), but there are still a fair amount of programs that have relatively reasonable tuition. In my opinion (take it as you will), as long as you stay away from the combination of 3 year + extremely high tuition programs (ie: NYU, Columbia, UNLV, USC, Roseman) you'll be relatively okay. Nothing like 'the good old days', but no 1 mm in debt concern (which that on its own is ridiculous that that's a standard to be measured against).

I have no idea.. it was shocking for me to see the opportunity cost of becoming an orthodontist, especially in this economy, job market, and pool of overproduced orthodontists.

Is there any recent grad orthodontist who wants to share your experience?

Recent grad orthos, recent grad GPs, all the same - all chime in to say keep costs low and actually learn what loan terms mean, what interest rates mean, and read threads on how much in monthly payments things end up costing. It's easy to say 'oh I'll pay $300k in tuition when I'm making $150k+yr', but to actually see what a $4k/mo payment plan looks like, or the difference between pre and post-tax income, is something that many pre-docs don't understand until they start paying.

 

[TanMan]

Although our debts may have been large, I always advocate people to pay as little as possible so that you can open your own office. The difference between your associate income and owner income is so great, that the initial investment is worth paying the bare minimum on your loans. Think of the opportunity cost.

Edit: Don't make the same stupid mistake I made by paying off my student loans fast in the beginning. It feels good, but it's a bad decision in the long run.

 

[321931]

Although our debts may have been large, I always advocate people to pay as little as possible so that you can open your own office. The difference between your associate income and owner income is so great, that the initial investment is worth paying the bare minimum on your loans. Think of the opportunity cost.

Edit: Don't make the same stupid mistake I made by paying off my student loans fast in the beginning. It feels good, but it's a bad decision in the long run.

That's crazy amount of money. Good luck to all those people in that sinking boat.

 

[charlestweed]

In just six months after graduation, I accumulated close to a million dollars in debt. In addition to the $450k student loan debt, my wife and I took out more loans to purchase a house, furniture, a perio practice for my wife and 2 leased German cars. Back then, our daily pay rates weren’t as high as they are today. One place paid me as little as $750/day and my wife as little as $500/day. A today new grad ortho (if he/she can find a job or is willing to travel) gets at least $1200/day. My income didn’t increase significantly until I started my own office 4 years later.

With close to a million in student loan debt, a new ortho grad may not be able have a nice house and drive a nice car like us right away but he/she can certainly save enough to start his/her own office in a very short time with the associate income. While working P/T for someone else, he/she can start a new office and gradually move up from there.

 

[charlestweed]

Since the pathway to become a dentist/orthodontist is very long and expensive, one needs to have early and careful planning... as early as high school years. You don’t just wake up one day and decide that you want to become a dentist. While in high school, take and pass as many AP classes as possible to improve the chance of getting accepted to a good cheap local university. Stay with the parents while in college to save $$$ in rent and food. Since the tuitions at the state schools are not too high, some parents can help pay for them. If the parents are low income, a student should be qualified for grants and/or scholarships and should be debt free after 4 years of college. Study hard, work hard, and set goals early in life will help a lot later.

 

[321931]

In just six months after graduation, I accumulated close to a million dollars in debt. In addition to the $450k student loan debt, my wife and I took out more loans to purchase a house, furniture, a perio practice for my wife and 2 leased German cars. Back then, our daily pay rate weren’t as high as they are today. One place paid me as little as $750/day and my wife as little as $500/day. A today new grad ortho (if he/she can find a job or is willing to travel) gets at least $1200/day. My income didn’t increase significantly until I started my own office 4 years later.

With close to a million in student loan debt, a new ortho grad may not be able have a nice house and drive a nice car like us right away but he/she can certainly save enough to start his/her own office in a very short time with the associate income. While working P/T for someone else, he/she can start a new office and gradually move up from there.

Agree. But now-a-days the Ortho is having a tougher time.

Good luck trying to find an old Orthodontist to buy from...doesn't happen.
Good luck starting up and fighting the corporate Ortho, the integrated GP/Ortho practice, and the GP who does ortho practice (invisalign, 6 month smile or even full blown ortho)
Good luck trying to find a decent associateship where you don't get trapped in some crappy practice. Aka, you can't just quit because patient's are in middle of treatment.

Ortho in my neck of the woods (the old timers) are doing well for themselves. The new ones are dying for referals, and some actually open 2 practices in different areas because they cannot make one work full time.

I think the face of ortho is def changing and the outlook doesn't look good. I would rather be a GP, buy a 1 mil practice, and be a super GP. Just my opinion.

 

[Steins;Gate]

Agree. But now-a-days the Ortho is having a tougher time.

Good luck trying to find an old Orthodontist to buy from...doesn't happen.
Good luck starting up and fighting the corporate Ortho, the integrated GP/Ortho practice, and the GP who does ortho practice (invisalign, 6 month smile or even full blown ortho)
Good luck trying to find a decent associateship where you don't get trapped in some crappy practice. Aka, you can't just quit because patient's are in middle of treatment.

Ortho in my neck of the woods (the old timers) are doing well for themselves. The new ones are dying for referals, and some actually open 2 practices in different areas because they cannot make one work full time.

I think the face of ortho is def changing and the outlook doesn't look good. I would rather be a GP, buy a 1 mil practice, and be a super GP. Just my opinion.

Would you say general dentistry is more attractive than ortho, all things considered?

1 mil practice netting 400K make sense?

 

[LordOfOMS]

That's crazy amount of money. Good luck to all those people in that sinking boat.

Follow me, and I will not let the boat sink.

 

[321931]

Would you say general dentistry is more attractive than ortho, all things considered?

1 mil practice netting 400K make sense?

Uh. Yes.

400k student loans. 1 mil practice. Net 400k on 4 days a week, 250-300 after paying back loans instantaneously.

Versus

Double your student loans. Start-Up 400-500k ortho practice. Net 0 while trying to build your practice. Negative Income while associating while trying to battle the changing model of orthodontist clinics.

If you love ortho, why not just be a GP and tackle some Ortho cases. It isn't hard and it's not unheard of. A few of my friends do ortho, I have no interest.

 

[charlestweed]

Good luck trying to find an old Orthodontist to buy from...doesn't happen.

Why buy an overpriced practice from an old orthodontist? They have nothing… no patients, very few (or none) referral GPs, high overhead, old equipment, slow inefficient assistants etc. Why not start one from scratch at much lower cost?

Good luck starting up and fighting the corporate Ortho, the integrated GP/Ortho practice, and the GP who does ortho practice (invisalign, 6 month smile or even full blown ortho)

This shouldn’t be a problem. If you charge reasonable fees (even at more competitive fee than at GP offices and corp offices) and take good care of your patients, your patients will refer you more patients. People will come to see you when you accept to treat patients that most other private ortho offices ignore: ie low-income, HMO, medicaid, and plans that other ortho/GP offices don’t accept.

Need to keep the overhead low. Many colleagues have complained that things are getting more expensive and they don’t make like they used to make before. That’s because they keep buying fancy toys and then have to replace them in a few years. I use the same technology that I’ve used in the last 15+ years: tradition brackets and wires, no Invisalign, no intraoral scanner, no CBCT, no digital x ray (still use the same $14k analog pan/ceph machine), no need to waste time calling the tech supports…and I make all the ortho appliances in-house. Patients don’t know the difference between what I use and what other orthos use. What they care about is a quality tx result at reasonable fee. Accurate diagnosis and tx plan (which don’t cost you anything) are more important than many of these expensive toys.

Good luck trying to find a decent associateship where you don't get trapped in some crappy practice. Aka, you can't just quit because patient's are in middle of treatment.

Don’t just quit like other orthos before you (I am not implying you, Rainee, but rather the new grad orthos). If you work hard and treat someone else’s office as if it is your own, you can turn a bad, low pay associate job into a good one. Clean up all the mess. Deband all the overdue cases. Teach yourself by fixing other ortho’s mistakes. Take good care of your patients and more patients will refer their friends to you. When you have more starts, your pay will go up.

Ortho in my neck of the woods (the old timers) are doing well for themselves. The new ones are dying for referals, and some actually open 2 practices in different areas because they cannot make one work full time.

I wouldn’t call this a “struggle”…but it is an “efficiency” in ortho. Most successful ortho offices I know are only opened a couple of days a month. That’s because an ortho can efficiently see 60-80 patients a day. So why not book as many patients in one day and work as fewer days as possible….and use the other extra days in the week to work at another office? A general dentist cannot do that.

For the last 15+ years, I’ve traveled to 6 different offices (and my staff travel with me also) not because I have to. I am happy to do this. Who wouldn’t want to make a lot of money?

 

[Steins;Gate]

Uh. Yes.

400k student loans. 1 mil practice. Net 400k on 4 days a week, 250-300 after paying back loans instantaneously.

Versus

Double your student loans. Start-Up 400-500k ortho practice. Net 0 while trying to build your practice. Negative Income while associating while trying to battle the changing model of orthodontist clinics.

If you love ortho, why not just be a GP and tackle some Ortho cases. It isn't hard and it's not unheard of. A few of my friends do ortho, I have no interest.

Suppose you don't have any student loans. Still GP over ortho?

 

[2TH MVR]

Even if I knew what I know today .... I would still be an orthodontist over a GP. Granted I practiced in the lucrative early 90's, but I still suffered like most orthos after the 2008 crash. Suffering defined as making less money than I was accustomed to. 50% less.

Here's the reality though. 50% less than my past large take home check is still pretty good.

Practicing ortho today is definitely more challenging now than prior to 2008. It wasn't just the economy, but aligner treatment also played a large part.

I happen to believe the GP's have one of the hardest, high stress jobs around. Convincing patients they need something when they cannot really see it or feel it. Dealing with anxious patients. Patient demands. Technical and dental material stuff. I mean there are so many scenarios surrounding the care of teeth. Ortho? Crooked teeth? Okay ... I can fix that. No anesthetic. No loupes needed. Mostly reversible. Patients love the immediacy of the results with their front teeth. Lets pick some nice colored ties. How about a colored appliance. Patients are not typically scared to see the ortho, but the stress needle probably goes up a little when seeing the GP.

Nope .... I'm happy as a 2TH MVR.

 

[321931]

I am jealous of those old orthodontists... But today's generation of orthodontists have it way different. If you truly want it, go speak to new guys not the old timers (no disrespect) about what the situation is like.

 

[2TH MVR]

I am jealous of those old orthodontists... But today's generation of orthodontists have it way different. If you truly want it, go speak to new guys not the old timers (no disrespect) about what the situation is like.

Who you callin an ol' timer sonny?

 

[hahadino2771]

Even if I knew what I know today .... I would still be an orthodontist over a GP. Granted I practiced in the lucrative early 90's, but I still suffered like most orthos after the 2008 crash. Suffering defined as making less money than I was accustomed to. 50% less.

Here's the reality though. 50% less than my past large take home check is still pretty good.

Practicing ortho today is definitely more challenging now than prior to 2008. It wasn't just the economy, but aligner treatment also played a large part.

I happen to believe the GP's have one of the hardest, high stress jobs around. Convincing patients they need something when they cannot really see it or feel it. Dealing with anxious patients. Patient demands. Technical and dental material stuff. I mean there are so many scenarios surrounding the care of teeth. Ortho? Crooked teeth? Okay ... I can fix that. No anesthetic. No loupes needed. Mostly reversible. Patients love the immediacy of the results with their front teeth. Lets pick some nice colored ties. How about a colored appliance. Patients are not typically scared to see the ortho, but the stress needle probably goes up a little when seeing the GP.

Nope .... I'm happy as a 2TH MVR.

I am a GP. worked my butt off today, and had gross income $2000 today excluding tax. I get paid somewhere b/t 30 - 35% of adjusted production. you can do math. That is a lot of income as a recent grad while the national average is 600 - 1000 a day. I can't complain for my production today.

Today, I did
-about 30 exams including emergency / recall/ new patient visits
-several fillings using good total etch technique, isolation, liner/base, incremental composite layering, good contact / occlusion
-turned emergency pt's broken teeth into same day extraction/ bone grafting / bridge prep/temp with extraction on emergency Pt
-did couple more crowns after RCTs were done by endodontists last week
-sat down with OS to discuss implant txplans.
-I felt I worked like a dog.
-took good xrays, good intraoral photos. Worked really hard to convince** my pts why fillings are needed on cavities that passed through DEJ and what the consequences would be if treatments are not done. why crowns are needed when MODL amalgam is breaking down, and cracks are everywhere around the tooth or cusps are broken. I don't like overtreatmentplanning.
-for endodontists to make takehome gross income of $2000 with 45% collection or production pay, they only need to 3 - 4 premolar or molar root canals depending on their fee schedule. That's just seeing only 3 - 4 pts a day. That's for PPO practice. In high end area, FFS endodontists charge up to 1500 - 2000 per molar endo. Some experienced endodontists do up to 10 molar root canals a day.
-for OS to make $2000, that is equivalent to doing 2 - 4 IV sedation cases depending on fee schedule, level of impaction, risk of nerve damage. Some low paying PPO fees are still as low as $105 - 110 for surgical extraction regardless whether that #17's apex is in close proximity o IAN, but some full bony impaction can go up to $500 on cash pts. you can do the math. extra consultation fee and extra IV sedation fee. that's where extra money comes from on OS side.
-plus, specialists get paid higher on production / collection. 30-35% for GPs, 40-50% for specialists depending on area, contracts, production vs collection, PPO vs FFS, etc.

Loan is a big issue for recent grads. I don't know how you pay them off though.. whether you marry a baller or your parents are paying them off for you.

I would be scared to graduate from a residency program if I had $1 mil student loans. That's equivalent to have 70k from compound interest only. I am not sure whether that would be worth it... if loan is a lot less than $1 mil or maybe 200 - 300k, then I think it will be definitely worth it if you enjoy practicing one specific area of dentistry, if you do not get bored of it, etc.

GP money seems lucrative when residents are still in training especially when the residents do not have real world dentistry experience. However, in a long run, if specialists can manage loans, they will make more money and work less in general. Excluding the business factor of general dentist (i.e. owning multiple practices, hiring inhouse specialists, volume of hygiene patients), and assuming that GPs like me working butt off 4 - 5 days a week as an associate in high volume PPO practice, I am pretty sure that my maximum take home gross income would be $450k a year and that's the highest that I can go while that number can be easily attained by recent grad endodontists doing 4 molars a day 4 days a week traveling around GP practices.

Just my 2 cents.

conclusion: if you have passion, interest, grades, resume or whatever, specialize if you can

 

[Steins;Gate]

I am a GP. worked my butt off today, and had gross income $2000 today excluding tax. I get paid somewhere b/t 30 - 35% of adjusted production. you can do math. That is a lot of income as a recent grad while the national average is 600 - 1000 a day. I can't complain for my production today.

Today, I did
-about 30 exams including emergency / recall/ new patient visits
-several fillings using good total etch technique, isolation, liner/base, incremental composite layering, good contact / occlusion
-turned emergency pt's broken teeth into same day extraction/ bone grafting / bridge prep/temp with extraction on emergency Pt
-did couple more crowns after RCTs were done by endodontists last week
-sat down with OS to discuss implant txplans.
-I felt I worked like a dog.
-took good xrays, good intraoral photos. Worked really hard to convince** my pts why fillings are needed on cavities that passed through DEJ and what the consequences would be if treatments are not done. why crowns are needed when MODL amalgam is breaking down, and cracks are everywhere around the tooth or cusps are broken. I don't like overtreatmentplanning.
-for endodontists to make takehome gross income of $2000 with 45% collection or production pay, they only need to 3 - 4 premolar or molar root canals depending on their fee schedule. That's just seeing only 3 - 4 pts a day. That's for PPO practice. In high end area, FFS endodontists charge up to 1500 - 2000 per molar endo. Some experienced endodontists do up to 10 molar root canals a day.
-for OS to make $2000, that is equivalent to doing 2 - 4 IV sedation cases depending on fee schedule, level of impaction, risk of nerve damage. Some low paying PPO fees are still as low as $105 - 110 for surgical extraction regardless whether that #17's apex is in close proximity o IAN, but some full bony impaction can go up to $500 on cash pts. you can do the math. extra consultation fee and extra IV sedation fee. that's where extra money comes from on OS side.
-plus, specialists get paid higher on production / collection. 30-35% for GPs, 40-50% for specialists depending on area, contracts, production vs collection, PPO vs FFS, etc.

Loan is a big issue for recent grads. I don't know how you pay them off though.. whether you marry a baller or your parents are paying them off for you.

I would be scared to graduate from a residency program if I had $1 mil student loans. That's equivalent to have 70k from compound interest only. I am not sure whether that would be worth it... if loan is a lot less than $1 mil or maybe 200 - 300k, then I think it will be definitely worth it if you enjoy practicing one specific area of dentistry, if you do not get bored of it, etc.

GP money seems lucrative when residents are still in training especially when the residents do not have real world dentistry experience. However, in a long run, if specialists can manage loans, they will make more money and work less in general. Excluding the business factor of general dentist (i.e. owning multiple practices, hiring inhouse specialists, volume of hygiene patients), and assuming that GPs like me working butt off 4 - 5 days a week as an associate in high volume PPO practice, I am pretty sure that my maximum take home gross income would be $450k a year and that's the highest that I can go while that number can be easily attained by recent grad endodontists doing 4 molars a day 4 days a week traveling around GP practices.

Just my 2 cents.

conclusion: if you have passion, interest, grades, resume or whatever, specialize if you can

What about GP owners? They seem to be doing well for themselves.

 

[321931]

What about GP owners? They seem to be doing well for themselves.

Buy the right practice, and you will be more then fine.

What is a good day consists of is about:
3 Crowns
5-10 Fills
20 Hygiene Checks
Or:
1 implant, 1-2 crowns
5-10 fills
20 hygiene checks
Or:
1 Bridge, 1 Crown
Few Fills
20 Hygiene Checks

That is easy peasy.

What a average day consists of:
1-2 crowns
<5 fills
Few holes in hygiene
or
Tons of fills
Few holes in hygiene

Bad day is bad day.

I bought the practice about 2 1/2 years out of school and netting $$$ straight off the bat on 4 days work week. Best month was last month. I make triple what I made as an associate GP. I don't do any endo, ortho, or os. Like I said business and good practice trumps all. If you truely liked ortho, you could always incorporate it into your practice. I really do think specialists make good money, but GP's- especially super GP's can. I'm sure if someone took over my practice and had ortho/endo/os skills, they could skyrocket the numbers. But I don't like to stress and prefer to just do fills and sleep tight at night.

There will always be room for specialists and they are def needed. But I would only go there if you truely liked it. My pedo guy sees 50 patients a day. Record was 80. He makes tons of money...but I could never do Pedo....I give my hat off to him.

 

[Steins;Gate]

Buy the right practice, and you will be more then fine.

What is a good day consists of is about:
3 Crowns
5-10 Fills
20 Hygiene Checks
Or:
1 implant, 1-2 crowns
5-10 fills
20 hygiene checks
Or:
1 Bridge, 1 Crown
Few Fills
20 Hygiene Checks

That is easy peasy.

What a average day consists of:
1-2 crowns
<5 fills
Few holes in hygiene
or
Tons of fills
Few holes in hygiene

Bad day is bad day.

I bought the practice about 2 1/2 years out of school and netting $$$ straight off the bat on 4 days work week. Best month was last month. I make triple what I made as an associate GP. I don't do any endo, ortho, or os. Like I said business and good practice trumps all. If you truely liked ortho, you could always incorporate it into your practice. I really do think specialists make good money, but GP's- especially super GP's can. I'm sure if someone took over my practice and had ortho/endo/os skills, they could skyrocket the numbers. But I don't like to stress and prefer to just do fills and sleep tight at night.

There will always be room for specialists and they are def needed. But I would only go there if you truely liked it. My pedo guy sees 50 patients a day. Record was 80. He makes tons of money...but I could never do Pedo....I give my hat off to him.

Thank you. How many years have you been an owner? Do you see yourself plateauing in terms of production/income?

 

[2TH MVR]

What about GP owners? They seem to be doing well for themselves.

I'm sure there are outlier GPs just killing it. In my experience working with many GP referrers over the past 26 years ... I'm not sure many of them accomplished what I did financially over the years. Maybe they were ultra-frugal and lived a spartan life saving all their money .... or maybe not.

Seriously. Just be what you want to be.

 

[321931]

In my opinion, the addition of more money of production/collections plateau doesn't really matter. You will get to a point where it's like Hmm.... If we drop molar endo we lose 2-3% collections... Is it worth the stress? Na let's drop it. I guess I could buy a new iPad with the money but I would rather be stress free. I would rather enjoy my job then be high strung.

Same goes for specializing. Do it if you like it. Not for the $$$. There's no happiness in a job that pays wel but you don't like it.

 

[Steins;Gate]

In my opinion, the addition of more money of production/collections plateau doesn't really matter. You will get to a point where it's like Hmm.... If we drop molar endo we lose 2-3% collections... Is it worth the stress? Na let's drop it. I guess I could buy a new iPad with the money but I would rather be stress free. I would rather enjoy my job then be high strung.

Same goes for specializing. Do it if you like it. Not for the $$$. There's no happiness in a job that pays wel but you don't like it.

That's exactly what I wanted to hear. Great advice.

And I am guessing you love what you do now? You get to choose which procedures to do, you are the owner, and you feel professionally satisfied with your work?

 

[786783]

In my opinion, the addition of more money of production/collections plateau doesn't really matter. You will get to a point where it's like Hmm.... If we drop molar endo we lose 2-3% collections... Is it worth the stress? Na let's drop it. I guess I could buy a new iPad with the money but I would rather be stress free. I would rather enjoy my job then be high strung.

Same goes for specializing. Do it if you like it. Not for the $$$. There's no happiness in a job that pays wel but you don't like it.

“Wealth is person dependent.” ☝️

 

[321931]

That's exactly what I wanted to hear. Great advice.

And I am guessing you love what you do now? You get to choose which procedures to do, you are the owner, and you feel professionally satisfied with your work?

Job is a job. I don't think many people ever find their true passions/love-to-do job. Dentistry is tolerable. Nice to be your own boss and have autonomy. Good money on 4 day week. I can make room to play Overwatch or Dota on the weekends. Don't have to be on-call or do 60 hour tech hour weeks.

It's a good job, but I really doubt that people "love" doing it. It's a hard job on the back and emotionally tiring.

 

[InformMe123]

Suppose you don't have any student loans. Still GP over ortho?

I'm curious the answer to this question as well. Would it be more profitable to go straight into GP ownership than taking out loans for ortho? Especially, considering GP would have 2-3 years headstart on building a practice and money, I am curious which would still be more profitable?

 

[wengerout]

How about Super GP vs. OS?

 

[Medin2017]

How about Super GP vs. OS?

I imagine it's pretty darn hard to outearn an os by procedure alone since os %collections is higher from what I've read and heard. And I kind of realized I wanna practice somewhere not in the middle of nowhere (since gd is beyond saturated in most decent cities including suburban) so dental school for me became an OS or bust situation. I bet on my academics far more than the 1% chance I somehow am a god of business, and I'm not one of those who read a few business books and think I'm suddenly good at business. In any case I can still do real well as an OS with business sense too. Read enough general dentist posts about grass is greener or regrets or seeing an os pull a 20k day and even IF general was still as good as it was 20 yrs ago I'd take os any day

 

[321931]

I imagine it's pretty darn hard to outearn an os by procedure alone since os %collections is higher from what I've read and heard. And I kind of realized I wanna practice somewhere not in the middle of nowhere (since gd is beyond saturated in most decent cities including suburban) so dental school for me became an OS or bust situation. I bet on my academics far more than the 1% chance I somehow am a god of business, and I'm not one of those who read a few business books and think I'm suddenly good at business. In any case I can still do real well as an OS with business sense too. Read enough general dentist posts about grass is greener or regrets or seeing an os pull a 20k day and even IF general was still as good as it was 20 yrs ago I'd take os any day

I would totally do OS over super GP any day. But do you know how absolutely hard it is to become an OS? We are talking about top 1% in your class, and you still might not get in. In addition, you have anywhere from 4-6 years of extra training on top of 60 hour grueling hospital rotations where they grill you.

There's no question I would do OS if I could, but hey man, do your 5 year goals, 10 year goals, and you can be out of student debt, out of practice loans, and have a positive net worth of 1 mil easily if you do it right. Right now I'm surfing youtube netting top % of dental income and no student loans...while my OS bud just pulled an all nighter shift. Make your plans and do it right, but don't count on becoming an OS. If you get it, great, if you don't thats fine to. It's not for everyone.

 

[Medin2017]

I would totally do OS over super GP any day. But do you know how absolutely hard it is to become an OS? We are talking about top 1% in your class, and you still might not get in. In addition, you have anywhere from 4-6 years of extra training on top of 60 hour grueling hospital rotations where they grill you.

There's no question I would do OS if I could, but hey man, do your 5 year goals, 10 year goals, and you can be out of student debt, out of practice loans, and have a positive net worth of 1 mil easily if you do it right. Right now I'm surfing youtube netting top % of dental income and no student loans...while my OS bud just pulled an all nighter shift. Make your plans and do it right, but don't count on becoming an OS. If you get it, great, if you don't thats fine to. It's not for everyone.

True but I'm about 100% sure I can be around top 10 doing what I'm doing. Normally getting class highs and most ppl in my class aren't incredibly hard working so even if there's smarter ppl I outwork them.

The thing is after residency (where u still make 60k I'm sure) you're guaranteed 350+. Literally beats derm without being as competitive as derm. I realized I'm not a fan of "art" and am too anxious to be a super dentist (often doing specialty procedures from just ce courses) so this seems to be the best bet. I'll be studying for cbse early on and crush that so in case I end up outside top 10 I'll still be okay. Not to mention my school had 10+/100 go into Ortho and oms with maybe 5-15 going into peds or other specialties.

I have bear 0 debt so I'm not concerned of that but idk how successful I'd be as gd especially in places that I would want to live in (semidiverse etc)

 

[charlestweed]

I am a GP. worked my butt off today, and had gross income $2000 today excluding tax. I get paid somewhere b/t 30 - 35% of adjusted production. you can do math. That is a lot of income as a recent grad while the national average is 600 - 1000 a day. I can't complain for my production today.

For an orthodontist to produce that much, he/she only needs to see 15 patients a day (assuming that each patient pays $120-150 per monthly visit) by him/herself… no assistant needed. With the help of 2-3 more part time RDAs, he/she can see up to 60-80 patients per day. All the ortho patients are young and healthy…no crying kids, no needles, much lower liability risk.

Practicing dentistry/orthodontics/os won’t make you rich…unless you try to upsell everything. You need to invest your money wisely (in stocks, rental properties etc) so you can continue to maintain the kind of lifestyle you currently enjoy when you can no longer practice due to old age or a sudden illness. You won't know if you will still be in the same physical shape 10-20 years from now and you have a family to support. The earlier you invest and the harder you work now (when you are still healthy, have no kid or have kids but the kids are still young), the sooner you won’t have to worry about showing up for work or about facing more new competitors nearby. That’s why I tell many young kids (my kids, nieces, nephews, and patients who want to be like me) to work hard in school and try to graduate on time. Take as many AP classes in HS as they can so they don’t have to take them in college and can graduate early. Don’t use lame excuses to take a year or two off.

 

[hahadino2771]

good point. good to hear from all different kinds of specialists.

take home income of $2000 as a GP means daily production/ collection $6000+ dollar worth of dentistry work b/c I get paid somewhere b/t 30 -35% on adjusted production/ collection. In PPO setting, where fees are 40% lower than what it should be, that is a lot of back breaking job in one day.

my point is: specialize if you can, run business well, and invest wisely = )

 

[Str82th]

How about Super GP vs. OS?

I always chuckle a little when I hear the “super GP” buzz word. It doesn’t make sense for a practitioner to try and do everything. Overhead becomes too large, quality suffers, managing the various standards of care is exhausting.

It would make more sense for a GP to become good at being a GP. Think about this, most new grads can barely place a quality composite restoration in less than an hour. When and how could they possibly learn to do more complicated procedures at the level of a specialist?

I think one should not enter dentistry with the goal to be a jack of all trades, master of none.

Life will be much less stressful and equally gratifying if you are able to hone your skill set as a generalist, or limit your practice to specific procedures.

 

[wengerout]

I would totally do OS over super GP any day. But do you know how absolutely hard it is to become an OS? We are talking about top 1% in your class, and you still might not get in. In addition, you have anywhere from 4-6 years of extra training on top of 60 hour grueling hospital rotations where they grill you.

There's no question I would do OS if I could, but hey man, do your 5 year goals, 10 year goals, and you can be out of student debt, out of practice loans, and have a positive net worth of 1 mil easily if you do it right. Right now I'm surfing youtube netting top % of dental income and no student loans...while my OS bud just pulled an all nighter shift. Make your plans and do it right, but don't count on becoming an OS. If you get it, great, if you don't thats fine to. It's not for everyone.

Netting “top %” of dental income doesn’t really say much though, no? What I mean is with salaries so variable no one here knows what exactly you mean by that without a ball park #.


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[wengerout]

I always chuckle a little when I hear the “super GP” buzz word. It doesn’t make sense for a practitioner to try and do everything. Overhead becomes too large, quality suffers, managing the various standards of care is exhausting.

It would make more sense for a GP to become good at being a GP. Think about this, most new grads can barely place a quality composite restoration in less than an hour. When and how could they possibly learn to do more complicated procedures at the level of a specialist?

I think one should not enter dentistry with the goal to be a jack of all trades, master of none.

Life will be much less stressful and equally gratifying if you are able to hone your skill set as a generalist, or limit your practice to specific procedures.

I mean isn’t the whole point of being a GP to have the ability to be a “jack of all trades?”.

Of course you would have to be able to do your bread and butter first, but almost all of the successful dentist I’ve seen (in my admittedly very limited scope) have been super GP’s save for the rock star cosmetic dentist charging FFS 4K a tooth veneers.

I think regardless of the road it all requires hard work, I’m just trying to continue to pick the brains of the professionals who do post on here to find the best road for me.


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[2TH MVR]

Being a "Super GP" doesn't mean your treatment will be super. It will be adequate in most situations. I don't want to derail this thread into a turf war, but the term Super GP probably originated in those rural areas where a dentist had to be a jack of all trades. Their patients appreciated that they could get all their general and special needs done without traveling to a city to find a specialist that is a complete stranger. This is a good service for those rural patients.

A few posts here seem to relate Super GP with making more money or as much money as a specialist. Okay. So the inference, unlike the rural dentist helping his patients, is that the goal is to make a lot of $$$$$$. Of course money is a motivator, but a patient's care should come 1st.

 

[hahadino2771]

can someone define what they mean by "super GP" to all of us? = )

 

[jda02624]

I hear you have to wear sleeveless scrubs as a Super GP to show off the guns.

 

[2TH MVR]

can someone define what they mean by "super GP" to all of us? = )

You're a super GP if you have no specialist referral pads in your office.

 

[TanMan]

I always chuckle a little when I hear the “super GP” buzz word. It doesn’t make sense for a practitioner to try and do everything. Overhead becomes too large, quality suffers, managing the various standards of care is exhausting.

It would make more sense for a GP to become good at being a GP. Think about this, most new grads can barely place a quality composite restoration in less than an hour. When and how could they possibly learn to do more complicated procedures at the level of a specialist?

I think one should not enter dentistry with the goal to be a jack of all trades, master of none.

Life will be much less stressful and equally gratifying if you are able to hone your skill set as a generalist, or limit your practice to specific procedures.

He's definitely right. There's no point in being the jack of all trades unless you like the bragging rights or you are starving for patients that you need to milk every procedure possible and avoid giving it to someone else. Financially, it makes no sense if you have enough patients to sustain yourself. I don't do ortho, dentures, or complex 3rds and I couldn't be happier.

Think of your business model - I find that having a positive relationship with the orthodontist actually yields a lot of referrals back for SRP's, endos, EXT's, etc... I could do the ortho myself, but can I do it well? Probably not unless I pour tons of CE hours and I'd probably burn referrals from orthodontists.

Edit: No offense to orthodontists, I just hate trying to do any ortho. Seeing the patients every few weeks would drive me crazy.

 

[smellycarabelli69]

Super gp = a greedy dentist who overrreaches into procedure they aren’t well trained to do in order to pay off their private dental school education. Examples include pappoosing kids while they have not been properly sedated and permanently traumatizing them and screwing up endo and ortho cases and then referring to specialists. The super gp loves taking 2 hour weekend ce courses and then experimenting on people. The super gp is responsible for the profession’s race to the bottom

 

[2TH MVR]

Okay. Have to throw in a little humor before this thread gets derailed any further.

True story. My buddy who is a super GP decided that he wanted to incorporate laser treatment into his practice. The sales person convinced him that the laser could do more than just tissue plasty. My buddy started training an asst to do LASER HAIR REMOVAL in his office. So here goes the story. Mr LASER HAIR REMOVAL guy (my super GP buddy) and I were golfing and accompanied by a man and his wife. My GP buddy who is very personable started talking to the young couple about how his asst performed hair removal on his back and essentially removed all of his back hair.

I then said to my super GP buddy. "Not sure about your back, but it looks like your Asst missed and lasered the top of your head".

C'mon. I thought it was funny.

 

[yappy]

Super gp = a greedy dentist who overrreaches into procedure they aren’t well trained to do in order to pay off their private dental school education. Examples include pappoosing kids while they have not been properly sedated and permanently traumatizing them and screwing up endo and ortho cases and then referring to specialists. The super gp loves taking 2 hour weekend ce courses and then experimenting on people. The super gp is responsible for the profession’s race to the bottom

Unfortunately there is some truth to this.

 

[Bernie Sanders]

Unfortunately there is some truth to this.

Ya unfortunately. Dental schools, particularly mine, do such a $hitty job teaching you and its a struggle to get even the basics down. No way you are ready to place implants, do ortho, etc unless you are like 5+ yrs out of school

 

[321931]

Unfortunately there is some truth to this.

There might be truth to it... But do u think today's grads are going to refer stuff out when they are in debt?