41 Secrets You Doctor Would Never Share (Reader's Digest)

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Secret 156:

Your knees hurt because you weigh 350 pounds. Period. They will not get better until you lose the equivalent of a normal-sized adult.

Secret 158:

Gastric Bypass is a dangerous surgery the long-term consequences of which we are only now beginning to understand. Get a good surgeon, preferably one who will talk you out of it.

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Secret 156:

Your knees hurt because you weigh 350 pounds. Period. They will not get better until you lose the equivalent of a normal-sized adult.

Secret 158:

Gastric Bypass is a dangerous surgery the long-term consequences of which we are only now beginning to understand. Get a good surgeon, preferably one who will talk you out of it.

Panda, it amazes me how people believe medicine is a cure-all service. Seriously, how many morbidly obese people develop serious knee/hip/low back pain and can't seem to figure out the cause has something to do with not being able to see your own feet in the shower?!?

On another note, my dad was a practicing orthopod for almost 40 years(old dad...). He told me the other day that chiropractic medicine was taking up more than half of my home states workers comp budget, dealing with back pain "suffered" on the job. Do you think workers comp or any government subsidized insurance should pay for craprocraptic care?
 
Complementary and Alternative Medicine = CAM?

If any of you have time to respond -- What's the weirdest "alternative medicine" 'cure' you've ever seen or heard of? I'm kind of curious...I've never really encountered alternative medicine myself.
 
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I know the CVS I work at sells some stuff that's supposed to be good for your gums and teeth. Really, it's just 18% salicylic acid. That must feel great!

A woman who'd badly cut her hand put oregano in the wound for some reason.

"Sweet oil" is one of my personal favorites. While it isn't as stupid as the two above, I always love it when people pay $4 for an eye-dropperful of olive oil. I've long since stopped trying to explain to people that they're getting ripped off and just smile and sell the stuff.
 
Reiki is still to me the funniest thing I have ever heard of as a "therapy". I even met a woman once who was treating her dog's stroke with acupuncture and reiki.

What really surprised me though was when I later related this story to the group I was with from my school there was actually someone who seemed to be a true believer in the crowd. (mentioned how he thought accupuncture was stupid but the reiki thing really works!) I think it is funny how cam believers will dismiss other cam but love their own.
 
Complementary and Alternative Medicine = CAM?

If any of you have time to respond -- What's the weirdest "alternative medicine" 'cure' you've ever seen or heard of? I'm kind of curious...I've never really encountered alternative medicine myself.

I think it's pretty hard to top homeopathy for pure insanity. The basic premise is that the more dilute these magical substances become, the more powerful they are.

It's intellectually the equivalent of trying to argue against the Laws of Thermodynamics. 2+2=5.
 
Heh, these are great! I got asked a general question about complementary and alternative medicine in my "mock interview" with my medical sciences committee. I think I answered something judicious like "I'd be interested in considering alternate therapies with a strong history of efficacy."
 
Secret 134:

CAM is ******ed. People who believe in it are ******ed. I refrain from rolling my eyes and calling you a ****** when you tell me about your homeopathic medications because I am a good Southern boy and my mama raised me better than that. A shrug and a "Well, it's your money, do what you want with it," is not an endorsement of whatever idiotic crystal or mind-body crap you are into this week.

See my response here:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=6795309#post6795309
 
The thing about all of these "don't come to the hospital unless it's serious because you're wasting resources" posts is that you're not taking into account the educational bias that allows you to make the assessment of whether it is indeed serious or not. Sure, a patient shows up with a headache and coughing up blood and you're annoyed because it's just an advanced cold. The blood is just from irritation due to coughing too much and the headache is just from some congestion. Any person with a bit of sense could have just looked that up on the internet and figured that out, right?

However, isn't that what we're trying to avoid? The arrogance of patients who come in with their WebMD print-outs demanding treatment for an illness you, as a trained physician, know they don't have? Patients misdiagnosing themselves based on an add they saw on TV?

Yes, most likely with those symptoms the patient just has a cold and it is nothing to worry about. They probably know that even, and as a physician is it even easier to recognize that right away because, hell, you're the doctor. You have the training. They don't. That's the point.

But personally, as a physican, I would rather my patients took the "better safe than sorry" approach and sought medical attention if they thought something might be wrong. Hell, there might actually be! Would you want that to go untreated because a patient was too "considerate" of the demands on hospitals and didn't want to burden them with his/her little ol' headache?
The arrogance of physicians dismissing their patients complaints or becoming annoyed because a patient is taking up the physicians time asking too many questions is disturbing to me. I am aware of the demands on physicians, but don't forget that you're providing a service to them because they don't have the training that you do. Have some patience and compassion with that understanding when they come to you with seemingly trivial problems.

Point is, it's easy for us to dismiss their problems because we have the knowledge that allows us to weigh in on their gravity, but for patients without that privilege, coughing up blood and pain behind the eye can be a very, very scary thing. I would hope that as physicians you would have more sympathy toward that.

Wow, sorry, that was long-winded. tl;dr. ;)
 
The thing about all of these "don't come to the hospital unless it's serious because you're wasting resources" posts is that you're not taking into account the educational bias that allows you to make the assessment of whether it is indeed serious or not. Sure, a patient shows up with a headache and coughing up blood and you're annoyed because it's just an advanced cold. The blood is just from irritation due to coughing too much and the headache is just from some congestion. Any person with a bit of sense could have just looked that up on the internet and figured that out, right?

However, isn't that what we're trying to avoid? The arrogance of patients who come in with their WebMD print-outs demanding treatment for an illness you, as a trained physician, know they don't have? Patients misdiagnosing themselves based on an add they saw on TV?

Yes, most likely with those symptoms the patient just has a cold and it is nothing to worry about. They probably know that even, and as a physician is it even easier to recognize that right away because, hell, you're the doctor. You have the training. They don't. That's the point.

But personally, as a physican, I would rather my patients took the "better safe than sorry" approach and sought medical attention if they thought something might be wrong. Hell, there might actually be! Would you want that to go untreated because a patient was too "considerate" of the demands on hospitals and didn't want to burden them with his/her little ol' headache?
The arrogance of physicians dismissing their patients complaints or becoming annoyed because a patient is taking up the physicians time asking too many questions is disturbing to me. I am aware of the demands on physicians, but don't forget that you're providing a service to them because they don't have the training that you do. Have some patience and compassion with that understanding when they come to you with seemingly trivial problems.

Point is, it's easy for us to dismiss their problems because we have the knowledge that allows us to weigh in on their gravity, but for patients without that privilege, coughing up blood and pain behind the eye can be a very, very scary thing. I would hope that as physicians you would have more sympathy toward that.

Wow, sorry, that was long-winded. tl;dr. ;)

Doesn't matter. It is a lack of common sense and a well-developed entitlement mentality that brings many of the Holy Underserved to the Emergency Department.

Don't lecture me on patience and compassion. I have probably seen something like 10,000 patients in the last three years (since I have been a resident, I mean) to your zero. Being patient and compassionate does not mean you have to be blind and stupid. Calling, for example, the ambulance for a paper cut, something I have seen twice this year, is inexcusable. Same with calling the ambulance because a family member is in the department and you couldn't get a ride or afford a cab. The "patient" got to the department at a cost of $375 to Medicaid, took up space for an hour until she could get some lunch, "eloped," and spent the rest her stay with her relative, all the while eating up a couple of hundred bucks to work up her bogus complaint.

Her relative asked me if we could send an ambulance to pick her up.

And my mother, my grandmother, and every other member of my family can recognize a cold or a minor illness with no medical training whatsoever. It is the "better safe than sorry" approach that is the root of the high cost of American medical care. Oh the stories I could tell.
 
The thing about all of these "don't come to the hospital unless it's serious because you're wasting resources" posts is that you're not taking into account the educational bias that allows you to make the assessment of whether it is indeed serious or not. Sure, a patient shows up with a headache and coughing up blood and you're annoyed because it's just an advanced cold. The blood is just from irritation due to coughing too much and the headache is just from some congestion. Any person with a bit of sense could have just looked that up on the internet and figured that out, right?

However, isn't that what we're trying to avoid? The arrogance of patients who come in with their WebMD print-outs demanding treatment for an illness you, as a trained physician, know they don't have? Patients misdiagnosing themselves based on an add they saw on TV?

Yes, most likely with those symptoms the patient just has a cold and it is nothing to worry about. They probably know that even, and as a physician is it even easier to recognize that right away because, hell, you're the doctor. You have the training. They don't. That's the point.

But personally, as a physican, I would rather my patients took the "better safe than sorry" approach and sought medical attention if they thought something might be wrong. Hell, there might actually be! Would you want that to go untreated because a patient was too "considerate" of the demands on hospitals and didn't want to burden them with his/her little ol' headache?
The arrogance of physicians dismissing their patients complaints or becoming annoyed because a patient is taking up the physicians time asking too many questions is disturbing to me. I am aware of the demands on physicians, but don't forget that you're providing a service to them because they don't have the training that you do. Have some patience and compassion with that understanding when they come to you with seemingly trivial problems.

Point is, it's easy for us to dismiss their problems because we have the knowledge that allows us to weigh in on their gravity, but for patients without that privilege, coughing up blood and pain behind the eye can be a very, very scary thing. I would hope that as physicians you would have more sympathy toward that.

Wow, sorry, that was long-winded. tl;dr. ;)

I'm not saying your post isn't without merit -- b/c I see your point and it is a good one. But headache + hematemsis is not a bogus complaint and this soon-to-be EM resident does not plan on viewing it as such.

We get more annoyed with the stuff that really idiotic like,

"My left knee has hurt for 2 years."
"I vomited today."
"I threw my back out lifting my couch, can I get 1 million Percocet, a sandwich, and a note excusing me from work until 2010?"
 
I'm not saying your post isn't without merit -- b/c I see your point and it is a good one. But headache + hematemsis is not a bogus complaint and this soon-to-be EM resident does not plan on viewing it as such.

We get more annoyed with the stuff that really idiotic like,

"My left knee has hurt for 2 years."
"I vomited today."
"I threw my back out lifting my couch, can I get 1 million Percocet, a sandwich, and a note excusing me from work until 2010?"

Or that time my attending, the charge nurse, and the patient care manager were all bugging me to go see a patient who had been waiting in his room for a few hours ( I was busy). The guy was an otherwise healthy thirty-year-old man with a complaint of "back pain" who, when I asked him how long it had been hurting said, "Since high school."

Or my all-time favorite chief complaint: "My ass is sweating."
 
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a...paper cut? :wow:

Yup. And in my city, EMS does not have the ability to refuse transport. Hence my comments about lack of common sense in our system. Now, to be fair it was a deep paper-cut but a little soap and water and a band-aide was all it needed. The patient called the ambulance because she didn't want to wait in the waiting room and didn't want to ride the bus.

Our charge nurse met EMS at the ambulance bay doors and routed her directly to the waiting room. Then, after she was seen, given a band-aide, and discharged she kicked up a fuss and tried to first get an ambulance to take her back home and then a cab voucher.

List of Mistakes:

1. Giving her an ambulance ride: $300.00
2. Not triaging her directly home: $200.00 for a simple level 2 visit.
3. Giving her a bus token: $1.50
4. Not revoking her Medicaid or for abusing the system:
 
But personally, as a physican, I would rather my patients took the "better safe than sorry" approach and sought medical attention if they thought something might be wrong.

Will you give you patients your phone number so they can call you at home and at all hours...just to be safe I mean?
 
a...paper cut? :wow:
Yeah, I've gotten a 911 call at least twice for that. Granted, sometimes it's for someone who is mentally handicapped and doesn't know any better, but there are plenty of healthy and reasonably intelligent people who call for stupid reasons as well.
 
I'm not saying your post isn't without merit -- b/c I see your point and it is a good one. But headache + hematemsis is not a bogus complaint and this soon-to-be EM resident does not plan on viewing it as such.

We get more annoyed with the stuff that really idiotic like,

"My left knee has hurt for 2 years."
"I vomited today."
"I threw my back out lifting my couch, can I get 1 million Percocet, a sandwich, and a note excusing me from work until 2010?"
Or "can you take me to my doctor's appointment in the ambulance? No? Okay, I'll just go to the ER instead."

At the ER, he'll rack up a huge bill only to be told "Yes, you should have gone to see your doctor." God forbid the man drive his own car to his doctor's appointment. Yes, he had his own car, and yes, I could tell that he was exaggerating his pain.
 
...But personally, as a physican, I would rather my patients took the "better safe than sorry" approach and sought medical attention if they thought something might be wrong.....

(From my now defunct blog.)


Zero Defect

You get what you pay for.

Consider the space shuttle, a technological marvel conceived in the 1970s to revolutionize space transportation by using a reusable space vehicle to drastically decrease the cost-per-pound of lifting payloads into orbit. First flown in 1981, the fleet of incredibly complex and expensive orbiters have yet to achieve their stated purpose of making launches economical and have instead become something of a boondoggle to NASA, sucking vast amounts of money out of less glamorous but probably more important space endeavors. It turns out that disposable rockets are significantly cheaper on a cost-per-pound-to-orbit basis because they are less complex, unmanned, and do not have to be refurbished between flights. The cost of the shuttle program has been almost $150 billion dollars or a little more than one billion dollars per flight for each of the 117 missions. Unmanned rockets, even big ones, aren’t nearly that expensive.

The shuttle is more expensive than was hoped largely due to a rigid zero-defect mentality on the part of NASA. Even a minor malfunction can result in the complete loss of the crew and a two billion dollar vehicle. Consequently, NASA takes an already legendary obsession with perfection to a new level to ensure the absolute reliability of the orbiter before each launch. This obsession is built into the vehicle through redundant systems and meticulous quality control, carries on to the launch where the smallest anomaly can scrub the mission (leading to costly defueling and reinspection), and finishes with an exhaustive post-flight check where the engines and most major sub-systems are disassembled and inspected.

At every stage of the process a small army of engineers and technicians orchestrate a clumsy bureaucratic exercise to document contractually stipulated compliance with procedures and specification. And yet, despite their best efforts, to date there have been two catastrophic losses of crews and vehicles for a failure rate of about two percent.

It wasn’t supposed to be this way but perfection isn’t cheap. If you adopt a zero-defect mentality, you are going to have to pay for it and you will rapidly reach a point where large amounts of money need to be spent for infitessimal increments of improvement.

Consider modern American medicine which, because it operates in a predatory legal environment, is also expected to be zero defect. It is hard for some people to believe but a physician can be sued by a patient who he treated many years before for a condition that may of may not have been the presenting complaint but which was not discovered at the time even though a reasonable standard of care was used. The patient may even have been told to return if the symptoms did not resolve but for whatever reason was “lost to follow-up” or whichever creepy, politically correct phrase is selected to divorce the patient from his responsibilities, in this case the responsibility to be concerned enough about his health to be more than a passive observer or some kind of oblivious passenger.

The physician’s records will be scrutinized by a rapacious attorney and any mistake or omission, no matter how slight, will be used to construct a case which, while perhaps not the multi-million dollar jackpot of which all indigent patients dream, may likely be settled out of court to avoid the expense of a trial. It’s a living for many attorneys.

This zero defect mentality costs money and very little of it improves patient care. Mostly it goes to cover the massive cost of defensive medicine which is what, I would dare say from personal experience, most of American medicine comes down to. We know better of course, but it is a lot easier to obtain the CT or order the test than to defend your perfectly reasonable, evidence-based rationale for not obtaining it. We also probably admit many more people than need to be admitted out of the fear of allowing patients to be responsible for their own outpatient follow-up.

A healthy respect for the possibility of error is part of medicine and cannot be discounted. On the other hand, what we have today is an abject terror of making a mistake. Unfortunately, unlike NASA, we are not working with professionals who have contractual obligations that they must honor, at least none that are enforceable. The trendier hospitals make a big deal about their carefully crafted Statements of Patient Rights and Responsibilities but it’s all just fluff to keep Press Ganey, the insatiable God of the Bureaucracy, happy. In our medical system, patients have no responsibilities and therefore the physicians must play a constant game of chess with opponents who moves their pieces at random and out of turn.

The public has to decided what it wants. They can have a reasonable level of relatively inexpensive medical care that relies as much as possible on the clinical judgment of physicians and their own high level of personal accountability with the understanding that occasionally something is going to be missed or they can have a hugely expensive system of medical care where everybody gets the million-dollar workup on the rare chance that something is caught that would otherwise not have been.
 
Will you give you patients your phone number so they can call you at home and at all hours...just to be safe I mean?

You're completely over exaggerating my point and being ridiculous. Giving out your phone number so your patients can call at all hours isn't taking a "just to be safe" route. There are plenty of other physicians available to treat my patients when I am not on call. So no, I would not. Giving my phone number isn't the way to keep my patients are safe; it's just unnecessarily crossing a boundary.

Yes, you could likewise argue that having an ambulance take a patient to the ER because he has a paper cut is likewise unnecessary to keep your patient safe. I'm not disagreeing with you there. You took my argument to an extreme. I hope that you honestly don't think I'm in favor of frivolous doctor visits. And without specifics, maybe I was also simply misunderstanding your and other's initial complaints because I would completely agree that the cases you outlined since my post were outrageous.

*However*, while it is not not necessary to give out my number, or to have a patient demand an ambulances because they have a sweaty ass, I do believe that it is important to be understanding of people's medical ignorance and to be patient when it rears its ugly head, regardless of the inconvenience it causes you. Seems like this is a moot point anyway, since you and I were referring to different ends of the spectrum. *shrug*


I have probably seen something like 10,000 patients in the last three years (since I have been a resident, I mean) to your zero.

That's pretty presumptuous of you to assume I've never seen patients. You don't know my professional history, correct? I could be a CRN for all you know.

While yes, I have not seen patients as a physician, I worked as a medical assistant for the past year at a very busy practice. In that time, by my calculations, I interacted with an estimated 10,000 patients (or rather, 10,000 patient visits). While I wasn't treating them directly, I was responsible for taking their history, assisting in their surgeries, patient education, managing their prescription requests, pathology results, etc. Yes, yes, it is nothing like being a treating physician, but my point is that I do have experience with patients and their ridiculousness, including the unreasonable expectations they place on their doctors.

"The doctor is unavailable right now. No, she's unavailable. Well if you must know, she's breastfeeding her son. Um, no, no.. she *can't* do that later so that you can be fit in to get a cortisone shot. Yes, I understand that you have a pimple and the big party is tonight, but it's 4:45 and our office closes in fifteen minutes..."

Regardless of how many patients I've seen myself, I actually think the catch-all, impenetrable defense of "I've been in practice for x number of years, so I know better" is what gets physicians in trouble in some cases. Personally, I think that it's this type of arrogance that leads to a huge disconnect between physicians and their patients. This is that attitude to which I was referring. It's an ivory tower type mentality.
 
Doesn't matter. It is a lack of common sense and a well-developed entitlement mentality that brings many of the Holy Underserved to the Emergency Department.

Don't lecture me on patience and compassion. I have probably seen something like 10,000 patients in the last three years (since I have been a resident, I mean) to your zero. Being patient and compassionate does not mean you have to be blind and stupid. Calling, for example, the ambulance for a paper cut, something I have seen twice this year, is inexcusable. Same with calling the ambulance because a family member is in the department and you couldn't get a ride or afford a cab. .

I disagree with your "lack of common sense". Most people don't know what to look for with their conditions. Your "common sense" may be far different from someone without medical training. And, I'm sure your family is better educated than most Americans.

Now, for your examples below, those are clearly ******ed. Hopefully there aren't too many of those types of people driving up costs.

My point is...even if you exclude the homeless drunk and the idiot who comes in with paper cuts...I think you are still only talking about a small fraction of what's wrong. The world will always be full of idiots. Railing against it does no good. Either fix it how you deal with it or tolerate it. The "people are dumb" rant is useless.
 
I disagree with your "lack of common sense". Most people don't know what to look for with their conditions. Your "common sense" may be far different from someone without medical training. And, I'm sure your family is better educated than most Americans.

Now, for your examples below, those are clearly ******ed. Hopefully there aren't too many of those types of people driving up costs.

My point is...even if you exclude the homeless drunk and the idiot who comes in with paper cuts...I think you are still only talking about a small fraction of what's wrong. The world will always be full of idiots. Railing against it does no good. Either fix it how you deal with it or tolerate it. The "people are dumb" rant is useless.
So you do agree that people should use common sense? Otherwise, why shouldn't they take the ambulance to the ER for a paper cut?
 
It seems like some of the debate may simply result from the difference between ER vs. outpatient clinic/private practice (?)
 
Ativan is a great Emergency Medicine drug. It breaks seizures, sedates, and is the one thing you can safely give for almost every toxicological emergency you can think of.

that's fine, as long as you aren't giving it to the nervous nellies, the insomniacs, the back pain, or the people who just need a refill. Even in the above cases you mentioned, it has the capability of creating monsters the rest of us have to deal with, so use it judiciously :)
 
Secret 54:

Most medical care, as a percentage of dollars spent, is only marginally effective. The Number Needed To Treat for statins, for example, to prevent one heart attack in otherwise healthy people with no other comorbidities but elevated lipids is something like 1000. That means that 999 people in that category taking statins will spend a lifetime wasting money for a miniscule risk reduction.
.

Just to be fair Panda, I agree with 90% of your posts and feel they are a tremendous contribution to everyone's knowledge. I think you are enraged for many of the same reasons I am. The system makes no sense . It does a consistently poor job at putting the money and resources where it is needed most.

However, on the statins...I would disagree with that NNT. Plus, you are also forgetting other complications that statins prevent...there is some evidence it reduces dementia, claudication, stroke, DEATH from MI, etc. If you are going to pick on a useless intervention, I wouldn't make it statins.
 
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So you do agree that people should use common sense? Otherwise, why shouldn't they take the ambulance to the ER for a paper cut?

I think that you should either A. make litigation less of a lottery bonanza and give practitioners more leeway in refusing care
and/or
B. as Panda said, have some copays to make people think a little.


Asking people to "have more common sense" is useless. You have to incentivize them to use their common sense.
 
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If there's a main point I think is worth emphasizing, its Panda's lovely point of making people "smart shoppers".

That is a fantastic term and dead on. If we could turn our system into one of "smart shoppers", about 60% of our current problems would be improved or disappear completely.

Inappropriate ambulance rides...using expensive prescription drugs...expensive surgeries...expensive end of life care....all this stuff goes out the window once people learn they will be paying for it on their own. And you'll see virtually NO change in outcomes. I promise.
 
Asking people to "have more common sense" is useless. You have to incentivize them to use their common sense.
Oh, then I do agree with you. I guess it was less of "they should use common sense" rather than "common sense should be imposed on them in a way that they will understand" - i.e., their wallet. Not a serious complaint? $25, please, and triage is that way.
 
I disagree with your "lack of common sense". Most people don't know what to look for with their conditions. Your "common sense" may be far different from someone without medical training. And, I'm sure your family is better educated than most Americans.

Now, for your examples below, those are clearly ******ed. Hopefully there aren't too many of those types of people driving up costs.

My point is...even if you exclude the homeless drunk and the idiot who comes in with paper cuts...I think you are still only talking about a small fraction of what's wrong. The world will always be full of idiots. Railing against it does no good. Either fix it how you deal with it or tolerate it. The "people are dumb" rant is useless.

Whoa. The point of this thread was "Secrets Your Doctors Would Never Share." I deal with "ass sweating" like I do any other patient and it is this kind of patient that contributes to the freak show atmosphere I love about Emergency Medicine.

But mark me well. I probably see two or three "frequent fliers" on every shift out of a total of about twenty patients. These are people who have been to our Emergency Department twenty times in one year and the Lord only knows how many times at the other major hospital in town. They are huge consumers of medical resources and many of them get expensive workups every couple of months because even hypochondriacs and malingerers get sick. My biggest abuser came in one day with a perforated bowel and God help the physician who would have sent him home even though he has an extensive history of crying wolf. Of course, that time he definitely had a surgical abdomen (rigid, guarding, pain not touched by the usual dilaudid bribe).
 
I disagree with your "lack of common sense". Most people don't know what to look for with their conditions. Your "common sense" may be far different from someone without medical training. And, I'm sure your family is better educated than most Americans.

Now, for your examples below, those are clearly ******ed. Hopefully there aren't too many of those types of people driving up costs.

My point is...even if you exclude the homeless drunk and the idiot who comes in with paper cuts...I think you are still only talking about a small fraction of what's wrong. The world will always be full of idiots. Railing against it does no good. Either fix it how you deal with it or tolerate it. The "people are dumb" rant is useless.

I come from a completely normal middle-class family and my mother did not haul us into the emergency room at three AM for a cold or some diarrhea.
 
If any of you have time to respond -- What's the weirdest "alternative medicine" 'cure' you've ever seen or heard of? I'm kind of curious...I've never really encountered alternative medicine myself.
One treatment that apparently is useful for a number of symptoms contains ground up sharkskin. Except it was approximately 0.00000001% of the treatment.
Calling, for example, the ambulance for a paper cut, something I have seen twice this year, is inexcusable.
Two things I witnessed while volunteering in the ER this past year:
1) A lady called for an ambulance, because she was eating popcorn and found out it had expired in 2000.
2) Parents brought their daughter into the ER because she was having a... tantrum.
 
I come from a completely normal middle-class family and my mother did not haul us into the emergency room at three AM for a cold or some diarrhea.

Ditto. Actually my family growing up was considerably less than middle-class and I can only recall anyone going to the emergency room once (my brother fell and bit his tongue hard enough that it wouldn't stop bleeding and required stitches). AND we didn't have insurance half the time but we didn't go running off to the emergency room every time we had the flu - we were handed a bowl and the TV remote and told to go lie down after being given some ibuprofen. Hell, I've been to the ED twice in my life and it was during the same week of my freshman year of college. I broke my nose and then 5 days later was back for acute appendicitis. But I see so many other people just run off to the ER for ever deep splinter or superficial burn smaller than a dime - its ridiculous.
 
I'm pretty sure I know the truth of medical training and career. My dad's moved >5 times as an oncologist. I've also worked before coming to med.

What is true is that Law2Doc comes across as condescending about 50% of the time.

I've read Panda's blog already (which he recently shut down). Why don't you stop making assumptions.

You know the truth of medical training and career? That statement seems a little arrogant to me b/c I'm not sure all experiences and perspectives are quite the same.

L2D is pretty reasonable and fair, never condescending.
 
Just to be fair Panda, I agree with 90% of your posts and feel they are a tremendous contribution to everyone's knowledge. I think you are enraged for many of the same reasons I am. The system makes no sense . It does a consistently poor job at putting the money and resources where it is needed most.

However, on the statins...I would disagree with that NNT. Plus, you are also forgetting other complications that statins prevent...there is some evidence it reduces dementia, claudication, stroke, DEATH from MI, etc. If you are going to pick on a useless intervention, I wouldn't make it statins.

Well look, statins and most other drugs are advertised by their relative risk reduction of a certain event, say a heart attack in the case of statins. But it's relative risk reduction you see. If I say that patients with no other risk factors (diabetes, smoking, heart failure) have a twenty percent reduction in relative risk of a heart attack (which is how some statins are touted), it only means that there is a twenty percent reduction in an already low risk. Most otherwise healthy people do not die of heart attacks so if your risk per year of a heart attack is one percent, a twenty percent reduction in the relative risk means that your risk decrease from one percent to 0.8 percent. Significant statistically but is this reduction worth the cost of keeping 10 million people on statins for their whole lives? Is there, for example, a significant mortality benefit for relatively healthy people who are never-the-less put on statins for slightly elevated cholesterol?

Note that I am not talking about people with diabetes, heart failure, and other risk factors who have a very large reduction in their actual risk of a heart attack. I'm just pointing out an example of a marginally effective but expensive treatment. Now, if statins were as cheap as aspirin it might be cost-effective to give 'em to everybody but there are also side effects to consider which also cost money.

As for reducing dementia and the other things, some evidence is a far cry from strong evidence.
 
Or take Namenda, another very expensive drug that is supposed to reduce the symptoms of dementia. I suppose you could make a case to give it to people with early signs of Alzheimer's but why is every single end-stage Alzheimer's patient, people who have not spoken a coherent word in two years or moved from their bed except when lifted by the minimum wage keepers in the warehouses in which they are stored, on it? What possible benefit can it have. It doesn't even work that great in early stages of dementia but giving it to someone who is fed through a tube, breathes through a hole in the neck, and has been given a colostomy to prevent their stool from infecting their massive sacral decubitous ulcers is insane. Totally useless but we do it anyways.

I harp on the subject of futile care as you may notice. Some of the things we do, like resuscitating an eighty-year-old cancer patient with metastatic disease in the brain and every other organ, are completely insane. Insane and cruel. Big whoop. Because the family cannot let go, we shock and ventilate them back to life for another week or two of twilight death in the ICU at a cost of four thousand dollars per day or life. I have seen this hundreds of times.
 
Secret Zero:

If you combined the money we spend on totally futile care of terminally ill and rapidly dying patients, on marginally effective therapies that have an effect on mortality measured in days and months, on self-limiting problems of otherwise healthy people, and on people who knowingly abuse and misuse their taxpayer supported medical care we would probably spend half as much as we do now with no effect on life expectancy or any other metric you care to use as an indicator of health.
 
Secret Zero:

If you combined the money we spend on totally futile care of terminally ill and rapidly dying patients, on marginally effective therapies that have an effect on mortality measured in days and months, on self-limiting problems of otherwise healthy people, and on people who knowingly abuse and misuse their taxpayer supported medical care we would probably spend half as much as we do now with no effect on life expectancy or any other metric you care to use as an indicator of health.

We could then use all that money to hire people to slap twinkies out of the hands of Americans, drag them to the gym, and beat them with sticks until they exercise for an hour 4x/week. I'm pretty sure we would see life expectancy soar and incidence of preventable death plummet.
 
Well look, statins and most other drugs are advertised by their relative risk reduction of a certain event, say a heart attack in the case of statins. But it's relative risk reduction you see. If I say that patients with no other risk factors (diabetes, smoking, heart failure) have a twenty percent reduction in relative risk of a heart attack (which is how some statins are touted), it only means that there is a twenty percent reduction in an already low risk. Most otherwise healthy people do not die of heart attacks so if your risk per year of a heart attack is one percent, a twenty percent reduction in the relative risk means that your risk decrease from one percent to 0.8 percent. Significant statistically but is this reduction worth the cost of keeping 10 million people on statins for their whole lives? Is there, for example, a significant mortality benefit for relatively healthy people who are never-the-less put on statins for slightly elevated cholesterol?

Note that I am not talking about people with diabetes, heart failure, and other risk factors who have a very large reduction in their actual risk of a heart attack. I'm just pointing out an example of a marginally effective but expensive treatment. Now, if statins were as cheap as aspirin it might be cost-effective to give 'em to everybody but there are also side effects to consider which also cost money.

As for reducing dementia and the other things, some evidence is a far cry from strong evidence.

Panda raises a good point about Number Needed to Treat: the most poorly emphasized concept in medical biostatistics. For an excellent and short article by a Harvard pediatric cardiologist see

http://www.slate.com/id/2150354/

When I am an attending this will be required reading for all of my students.
 
We could then use all that money to hire people to slap twinkies out of the hands of Americans, drag them to the gym, and beat them with sticks until they exercise for an hour 4x/week. I'm pretty sure we would see life expectancy soar and incidence of preventable death plummet.

That would be a fun job. Like I said I'm not as far to the right on these issues as some people (Panda) but I think it's important for some of the pre-meds to have a good understanding of what we are talking about when we emphasize diet/exercise.

1. When we talk about patients with poor diets, this is not your college roomate who gets stoned a few times a week and eats a bag of Doritos. These are people who quite literally almost never touch anything that isn't sweetened, salted, processed, or packaged. Fast food is a staple, as are sugary drinks.

2. When we talk about patients with sedentary lifestyles, this is not your brother who comes home from school and plays Playstation for 3 hours straight. These are people for whom a walk around the block would be devastatingly exhausting. People who could not complete a mile run even if given 15 minutes to do it.

The entire lifestyle is exactly what you would do if you designed a concerted attack on your own physical health. It's like the Special Forces of pathological processes have been brought to battle.

I'm really not trying to be patronizing, among some of my younger colleagues I have observed a real difficulty in understanding this American life. "I don't understand," one poor guy told me, "my patient says she watches what she eats and exercises 3x/week but she still can't lose weight!"
 
I come from a completely normal middle-class family and my mother did not haul us into the emergency room at three AM for a cold or some diarrhea.

that's nice, but i still see this as a pointless discussion unless you plan on educating the entire population about unnecessary ER visits. That or you make them pay a copay. Just saying "people are stupid" doesn't get you very far.
 
one other thing that bothers me...particularly about academic medicine. is that no one uses "tincture of time". About 500x during my residency I wanted to say..."well, how about we just wait and see if it improves." that is if it was not an imminent danger. Oh no...we had to work that sucker up, with 10 labs and 5 tests. Not intelligent.
 
one other thing that bothers me...particularly about academic medicine. is that no one uses "tincture of time". About 500x during my residency I wanted to say..."well, how about we just wait and see if it improves." that is if it was not an imminent danger. Oh no...we had to work that sucker up, with 10 labs and 5 tests. Not intelligent.

Reminds me of a book I read, all the residents started faking labs because the senior resident kept ordering too many invasive tests and the patients were getting worse due to the complications.

Ah yes, Bernstein Bears and the Terminal Wean

good book.
 
That would be a fun job. Like I said I'm not as far to the right on these issues as some people (Panda) but I think it's important for some of the pre-meds to have a good understanding of what we are talking about when we emphasize diet/exercise.

1. When we talk about patients with poor diets, this is not your college roomate who gets stoned a few times a week and eats a bag of Doritos. These are people who quite literally almost never touch anything that isn't sweetened, salted, processed, or packaged. Fast food is a staple, as are sugary drinks.

2. When we talk about patients with sedentary lifestyles, this is not your brother who comes home from school and plays Playstation for 3 hours straight. These are people for whom a walk around the block would be devastatingly exhausting. People who could not complete a mile run even if given 15 minutes to do it.

Have you ever watched "I Eat 33,000 Calories a Day" or "Inside Brookhaven" on TLC?

Frightening. Saddening.

Also the idea of "food deserts" is horrifying. In the land of plenty (producing 3,900 calories per person per day... yeah there's really no reason we need agricultural subsidies to prevent foreign dependence on food), there are regions of the United States in which a person would have to travel more than 20 minutes by car to get to a grocery store. :eek:

You don't have to run a marathon or even have 4-pack abs to be "in shape." Some guys out there are overweight but throw down a 24 minute 5k. Not bad.

The entire lifestyle is exactly what you would do if you designed a concerted attack on your own physical health. It's like the Special Forces of pathological processes have been brought to battle.

I'm really not trying to be patronizing, among some of my younger colleagues I have observed a real difficulty in understanding this American life. "I don't understand," one poor guy told me, "my patient says she watches what she eats and exercises 3x/week but she still can't lose weight!"

I hear you. I think it's an element of naivete. These people want to believe the patients, because the doctors themselves have had difficulty losing weight.

Also, the people think watching their carbs is being watchful of their diet. Eating 5 t-bone steaks instead of having a dinner roll is not a successful diet. I'll tell you that right now. I dunno, though. I'm not a doctor. Probably can't trust my advice... :laugh:
 
that's nice, but i still see this as a pointless discussion unless you plan on educating the entire population about unnecessary ER visits. That or you make them pay a copay. Just saying "people are stupid" doesn't get you very far.

The public has been conditioned to use the Emergency Department for minor complaints. EMTALA has seen to that. You don't have to educate the public about not going to the doctor (not just the Emergency Department) for minor complaints. You just have to make it cost something and behavior will change to take into account the new reality.

Now: "I have diarrhea. I'll just go to the Emergency Department. It's free and I have nothing else to do. Plus they have free sammiches'."

Pandaverse: "I have diarrhea. I could go to the Emergency Department but it will cost me twenty bucks and I need that for my cigarettes. I'll just buy some peptobismol and see how that goes."

By the way, all of the "copays" proposed to clear out some of the minor complaints are a bargain for the level of service you get in the Emergency Department.

Problem number two is that many Hospitals that have a good payer mix advertise and encourage misuse of emergency services.
 
The public has been conditioned to use the Emergency Department for minor complaints. EMTALA has seen to that. You don't have to educate the public about not going to the doctor (not just the Emergency Department) for minor complaints. You just have to make it cost something and behavior will change to take into account the new reality.

Now: "I have diarrhea. I'll just go to the Emergency Department. It's free and I have nothing else to do. Plus they have free sammiches'."

Pandaverse: "I have diarrhea. I could go to the Emergency Department but it will cost me twenty bucks and I need that for my cigarettes. I'll just buy some peptobismol and see how that goes."

By the way, all of the "copays" proposed to clear out some of the minor complaints are a bargain for the level of service you get in the Emergency Department.

Problem number two is that many Hospitals that have a good payer mix advertise and encourage misuse of emergency services.

Hey Panda,
If you are not going to blog anymore, get to work on the book. I need a few more good laughs!
 
The public has been conditioned to use the Emergency Department for minor complaints. EMTALA has seen to that. You don't have to educate the public about not going to the doctor (not just the Emergency Department) for minor complaints. You just have to make it cost something and behavior will change to take into account the new reality.

Now: "I have diarrhea. I'll just go to the Emergency Department. It's free and I have nothing else to do. Plus they have free sammiches'."

Pandaverse: "I have diarrhea. I could go to the Emergency Department but it will cost me twenty bucks and I need that for my cigarettes. I'll just buy some peptobismol and see how that goes."

By the way, all of the "copays" proposed to clear out some of the minor complaints are a bargain for the level of service you get in the Emergency Department.

Problem number two is that many Hospitals that have a good payer mix advertise and encourage misuse of emergency services.

"O wonder!
How many goodly creatures are there here!
How beauteous mankind is!
O brave new world
That hath such people in't!"

-Miranda, The Tempest, Act V, Scene I
 
Oh, then I do agree with you. I guess it was less of "they should use common sense" rather than "common sense should be imposed on them in a way that they will understand" - i.e., their wallet. Not a serious complaint? $25, please, and triage is that way.

Well, you have to incentivize doctors the right way too. As of now, we pay for procedure. Also, as Panda says, you're much more likely to get sued unless you get a confirmatory (usually worthless) test. What is the sum of these decisions? LOTS of tests.

So....
1. Docs get paid for procedures/tests
2. Tests/procedures are a buffer against getting sued
3. Patients generally "feel" better when they get a test or a drug. (the doc did something for me). Some doctors feel better too.
4. Since healthcare is free and no copay, why NOT get the test.

As you can see...everyone is incentivized to get more tests. You have to change the way business is done by incentivizing people the right way.

Pay the doctor for procedures? Well, guess what? That cardiology group that used to do 5 Cardiac CT's a month that just bought a new Cardiac CT scanner? They now do 50 per month because that Cardiac CT is getting their kid through college. You get exactly what you pay for.
 
The public has been conditioned to use the Emergency Department for minor complaints. EMTALA has seen to that. You don't have to educate the public about not going to the doctor (not just the Emergency Department) for minor complaints. You just have to make it cost something and behavior will change to take into account the new reality.

Now: "I have diarrhea. I'll just go to the Emergency Department. It's free and I have nothing else to do. Plus they have free sammiches'."

Pandaverse: "I have diarrhea. I could go to the Emergency Department but it will cost me twenty bucks and I need that for my cigarettes. I'll just buy some peptobismol and see how that goes."

By the way, all of the "copays" proposed to clear out some of the minor complaints are a bargain for the level of service you get in the Emergency Department.

Problem number two is that many Hospitals that have a good payer mix advertise and encourage misuse of emergency services.

Yep, I agree. No argument here. :)
 
Panda raises a good point about Number Needed to Treat: the most poorly emphasized concept in medical biostatistics. For an excellent and short article by a Harvard pediatric cardiologist see

http://www.slate.com/id/2150354/

When I am an attending this will be required reading for all of my students.

Great article. I always wondered why, with all these amazingly "effective" drugs out there, so many people still got sick.

Reminds me of a book I read, all the residents started faking labs because the senior resident kept ordering too many invasive tests and the patients were getting worse due to the complications.

Ah yes, Bernstein Bears and the Terminal Wean

good book.

I suck at sarcasm, so I'm proabably missing some here. It was House of God, for the record.
 
Great article. I always wondered why, with all these amazingly "effective" drugs out there, so many people still got sick.



I suck at sarcasm, so I'm proabably missing some here. It was House of God, for the record.

Buff that chart. Funny how things haven't changed. In IT land there was a book called the "Mythical Man Month" from the 70's on errors in software development. It is still applicable with folks making the same mistakes. But hey why learn.
 
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