• Advice You're Thankful for Contest

    Now that it's getting close to Thanksgiving, we're running a contest to hear advice you've received that you're most thankful for! This can be any type of advice and the advice with the most reactions will win!

    JOIN CONTEST

50 Unfilled Anesthesia Spots?

About the Ads

Impromptu

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Feb 19, 2009
600
204
  1. Attending Physician
    Those spots may fill in the scramble, but 50 is a big number. I wonder if applicants are getting too good at trying to convince programs that they are their number 1 choice so that programs are unable to discern those that really want to go there vs those that don't.

    All the excess interviewing hurts the pocketbook of the applicants and the programs. But that is how the game is played these days.
     

    bigdan

    SDN Donor
    15+ Year Member
    Dec 30, 2002
    2,492
    605
    Ann Arbor
    1. Attending Physician
      I'll be interested to see which places didn't fill; maybe applicants are actively avoiding ranking places for whatever reason. If there are 50 programs with one open spot, I'm not sure what to make of it - if there are a couple places that don't match 6 or 8 each, that's tell you something...
       

      xbulletin

      Full Member
      Feb 3, 2011
      64
      2
        There may be a strong push among applicants to ignore prelim interviews and just go to as many anesthesia interviews as possible. These applicants are likely ranking categorical programs highly, making them more desirable (there was a higher proportion of unfilled advanced spots).

        It may be likely some places (both high and low end) are not ranking all interviewed applicants and waiting for the scramble. They know they can pick up top-notch applicants who failed to make surgical subspecialties/derm and would be happy to have anesthesia as a backup plan.
         

        McGillGrad

        Building Mind and Body
        10+ Year Member
        15+ Year Member
        Dec 21, 2002
        3,915
        22
        1. Resident [Any Field]
          I said this last year and was thustly lambasted for being a fool. Gas is becoming easier for American grads to secure whilst remaining difficult for IMGs. It is cyclical and is probably because people fancy surgery more this year.
           

          xbulletin

          Full Member
          Feb 3, 2011
          64
          2
            These are stats from 2010 match. I counted ~57 unmatched, so its essentially unchanged

            Program / Quota / Matched

            Anesthesia
            Harbor-UCLA Med Ctr-CA 4 3
            Loma Linda University-CA 10 7
            U Connecticut Hlth Ctr 5 2
            Yale-New Haven Hosp-CT 18 13
            Med Coll Georgia-Augusta 5 4
            Loyola Univ Med Ctr-IL 4 3
            Loyola Univ Med Ctr-IL 9 7
            U Maryland Med Ctr 7 4
            U Massachusetts Med School 2 0
            U Massachusetts Med School 4 2
            UMDNJ-R W Johnson-Piscataway 9 7
            SUNY HSC Brooklyn-NY 3 2
            SUNY HSC Brooklyn-NY 15 4
            University at Buffalo SOM-NY 8 5
            Case Western/MetroHealth Med Ctr-OH 7 5
            University of Toledo-OH 4 2
            Temple Univ Hosp-PA 6 5
            Medical University of SC 9 6
            Texas Tech U Affil-Lubbock 4 1
            University of Virginia 4 0
            West Virginia University SOM 3 2
            Trans + Anesth: UT Knoxville 6 5
             
            • Like
            Reactions: 1 user

            Osteoimperfecta

            Full Member
            Jul 25, 2010
            178
            2
              There may be a strong push among applicants to ignore prelim interviews and just go to as many anesthesia interviews as possible. These applicants are likely ranking categorical programs highly, making them more desirable (there was a higher proportion of unfilled advanced spots).

              It may be likely some places (both high and low end) are not ranking all interviewed applicants and waiting for the scramble. They know they can pick up top-notch applicants who failed to make surgical subspecialties/derm and would be happy to have anesthesia as a backup plan.

              IMO this is the most ridiculous way to get residents. Trying to fill up your program with radiology/surgery/derm/etc rejects makes no sense. No sensible PD would want a candidiate who decided on anesthesia within 12 hours.
               

              xbulletin

              Full Member
              Feb 3, 2011
              64
              2
                Maybe. But let's say you're a PD at a lower tier program. Most of the people you interviewed have step scores 200-210. They come from institutions that don't impress you much. You can fill your program with them, if you want. Or you can leave a couple open for the scramble-- you catch a couple derm applicants with 238s who didn't make it. Or maybe very good anesthesia candidates that applied to too many top programs and they didn't bite.

                Either way, that person with the better grades, higher board scores, whatever is a more desirable candidate than someone with low scores who happened to do an extra month of anesthesia elective during medical school. That first group excelled during med school and will likely excel during residency, even if it wasnt their first choice specialty.
                 
                • Like
                Reactions: 1 user
                About the Ads

                Orin

                Full Member
                10+ Year Member
                Jul 27, 2009
                1,275
                619
                  top tier programs arent ranking everyone they interview, and are trusting in being able to pick from the scramble, in my opinion

                  Most of the PDs/admin staff/etc we talked to are not/were not prepared for a scramble. In next year's controlled scramble, this may be a reasonable strategy.

                  isn't it just programs holding spots for outside the match applicants?

                  Yeah, some of those available scramble spots though were supposedly being held, or they didn't like my phone voice :laugh:
                   

                  pgy13

                  Junior Member
                  10+ Year Member
                  Sep 28, 2005
                  126
                  3
                    Most of the PDs/admin staff/etc we talked to are not/were not prepared for a scramble. In next year's controlled scramble, this may be a reasonable strategy.



                    Yeah, some of those available scramble spots though were supposedly being held, or they didn't like my phone voice :laugh:

                    Remember, if these are advanced positions that didn't fill, the program has a whole year to find someone to take that spot. No need to deal with it on scramble day. Plenty of disillusioned surgeons that will start to appear in a few months.
                     

                    Trajan

                    Senior Member
                    15+ Year Member
                    Jun 3, 2002
                    305
                    6
                      Maybe. But let's say you're a PD at a lower tier program. Most of the people you interviewed have step scores 200-210. They come from institutions that don't impress you much. You can fill your program with them, if you want. Or you can leave a couple open for the scramble-- you catch a couple derm applicants with 238s who didn't make it. Or maybe very good anesthesia candidates that applied to too many top programs and they didn't bite.

                      Either way, that person with the better grades, higher board scores, whatever is a more desirable candidate than someone with low scores who happened to do an extra month of anesthesia elective during medical school. That first group excelled during med school and will likely excel during residency, even if it wasnt their first choice specialty.

                      I disagree. Many PD's are likely wary of a US grad who fails to match with a 240. Anesthesia is not that competitive for US MD's, and if you don't match with stellar scores, it may indicate a significant personality issue that came out on interviews. The two most prestigious programs where I interviewed made it clear that once you're at the interview stage, they don't care if applicant A scored 17 points higher than applicant B. Remember, team work is important in anesthesia, and no one wants to put up with an obnoxious resident for three years, high scores or not.

                      But, yes, if you're a PD at a low tier program who wants to raise your program's mean USMLE scores, holding out for the scramble will probably get the higher scores, but may not get you better residents.
                       
                      Last edited:

                      Doctor4Life1769

                      **tr0llin, ridin dirty**
                      10+ Year Member
                      Apr 28, 2008
                      34,250
                      908
                      Where the grass is always greener
                      1. Resident [Any Field]
                        Maybe. But let's say you're a PD at a lower tier program. Most of the people you interviewed have step scores 200-210. They come from institutions that don't impress you much. You can fill your program with them, if you want. Or you can leave a couple open for the scramble-- you catch a couple derm applicants with 238s who didn't make it. Or maybe very good anesthesia candidates that applied to too many top programs and they didn't bite.

                        Either way, that person with the better grades, higher board scores, whatever is a more desirable candidate than someone with low scores who happened to do an extra month of anesthesia elective during medical school. That first group excelled during med school and will likely excel during residency, even if it wasnt their first choice specialty.

                        BAD idea.
                        No wonder this specialty fell apart. Not enough people who were genuinely in it for the right reasons, and then the CRNAs took advantage.
                        I hope you never become a PD if that is also the way you feel and think.
                         

                        periopdoc

                        Cardiac Anesthesiologist
                        Lifetime Donor
                        10+ Year Member
                        Sep 8, 2008
                        2,367
                        616
                        Kalispell, Montana
                        1. Attending Physician
                          It isn't programs "holding spots for out-of-match candidates." The spots that are reserved for these candidates do not get reported as unfilled as they were never offered to the match in the first place.

                          The "unfilled positions" were offered to the match then went unfilled because either the specific programs did not rank enough applicants or not enough applicants ranked the specific programs.

                          It isn't a significant change from last year and I expect the caliber of unfilled programs will be pretty similar to what we saw last year.

                          Incidentally some of our best residents at UW were refugees from other specialties (I was an OB refugee myself). Many of us were interested in both anesthesia and another specialty and realized we could trial the other specialty and make a decision mid-intern year without losing time.

                          - pod
                           

                          Doctor4Life1769

                          **tr0llin, ridin dirty**
                          10+ Year Member
                          Apr 28, 2008
                          34,250
                          908
                          Where the grass is always greener
                          1. Resident [Any Field]
                            It isn't programs "holding spots for out-of-match candidates." The spots that are reserved for these candidates do not get reported as unfilled as they were never offered to the match in the first place.

                            The "unfilled positions" were offered to the match then went unfilled because either the specific programs did not rank enough applicants or not enough applicants ranked the specific programs.

                            It isn't a significant change from last year and I expect the caliber of unfilled programs will be pretty similar to what we saw last year.

                            Incidentally some of our best residents at UW were refugees from other specialties (I was an OB refugee myself). Many of us were interested in both anesthesia and another specialty and realized we could trial the other specialty and make a decision mid-intern year without losing time.

                            - pod

                            I'm guessing these "refugees" came from within the same hospital?
                             

                            Ronin2258

                            Prometheus Unbound
                            7+ Year Member
                            May 5, 2010
                            438
                            35
                            49
                            Lots of different places.
                            1. Attending Physician
                              I watch residentswap, though I no longer need to due to the fact that I found an Anesthesiology slot for June, (yay, me!) :soexcited: I still get their e-mails. 23 programs popped up over the course of the day yesterday, now down to 21.

                              I have discussed the cluster that this year's scramble has been elsewhere. However, the number of programs out there that used residentswap yesterday left me stunned.

                              May those that are scrambling have the best of luck.

                              I definitely concur that it is teamwork is one of the things Anesthesiology depends on. Not being a team player is no way to go through it. The last person I want to watch my back would be someone as described in this thread.
                               

                              Coastie

                              Junior Member
                              10+ Year Member
                              Oct 17, 2005
                              2,538
                              6
                              1. Resident [Any Field]
                                It isn't programs "holding spots for out-of-match candidates." The spots that are reserved for these candidates do not get reported as unfilled as they were never offered to the match in the first place.

                                The "unfilled positions" were offered to the match then went unfilled because either the specific programs did not rank enough applicants or not enough applicants ranked the specific programs.

                                It isn't a significant change from last year and I expect the caliber of unfilled programs will be pretty similar to what we saw last year.

                                Incidentally some of our best residents at UW were refugees from other specialties (I was an OB refugee myself). Many of us were interested in both anesthesia and another specialty and realized we could trial the other specialty and make a decision mid-intern year without losing time.

                                - pod

                                I've been told otherwise from friends at a few programs.
                                 

                                Doctor4Life1769

                                **tr0llin, ridin dirty**
                                10+ Year Member
                                Apr 28, 2008
                                34,250
                                908
                                Where the grass is always greener
                                1. Resident [Any Field]
                                  I've been told otherwise from friends at a few programs.

                                  Do explain.

                                  I was always told outside of match agreements are given out prior to a deadline, then after that... whatever is left is reported to NRMP as their total slots avail in the match.

                                  Example: CCF and their 25-30 spots, they give away half, and report 15 avail in the match...
                                   
                                  About the Ads

                                  periopdoc

                                  Cardiac Anesthesiologist
                                  Lifetime Donor
                                  10+ Year Member
                                  Sep 8, 2008
                                  2,367
                                  616
                                  Kalispell, Montana
                                  1. Attending Physician
                                    Outside of match spots are just that. They can be given out at any time before or after the match. These spots do not get listed in the match statistics.

                                    Programs that have out-of-match spots every year do not end up on the list of unfilled programs every year so the idea that these spots are reflected in the match statistics is incorrect.

                                    A program could hold "match spots" for out-of-match applicants if they ranked fewer applicants than they have spots available, but I don't see them doing that.


                                    -pod
                                     

                                    sev1

                                    Full Member
                                    Nov 17, 2010
                                    36
                                    0
                                      Outside of match spots are just that. They can be given out at any time before or after the match. These spots do not get listed in the match statistics.

                                      Programs that have out-of-match spots every year do not end up on the list of unfilled programs every year so the idea that these spots are reflected in the match statistics is incorrect.

                                      A program could hold "match spots" for out-of-match applicants if they ranked fewer applicants than they have spots available, but I don't see them doing that.


                                      -pod

                                      This.

                                      If a program has say 10 spots they cannot tell nrmp to only fill up the first 8. They number of open seats are listed and those that did not fill are listed. Now say they only want to fill 8 they could theoretically just list 8 candidates and hope all 8 match there and have 2 empty seats. But once they list more then 8 they could theoretically fill those seats.

                                      If they are 'holding' spots then it will not even be listed in the number of seats a program has when you fill out your rank list on nrmp website.
                                       

                                      xbulletin

                                      Full Member
                                      Feb 3, 2011
                                      64
                                      2
                                        BAD idea.
                                        No wonder this specialty fell apart. Not enough people who were genuinely in it for the right reasons, and then the CRNAs took advantage.
                                        I hope you never become a PD if that is also the way you feel and think.


                                        I'm not sure what your point is. People scrambling into the specialty are a tiny slice of residents, so in no way are those who scramble representative of the specialty. That means nothing as far as "going in it for the right reasons" and you're drawing wild conclusions about how that led to CRNAs. And who are you define the right reasons anyway?

                                        I also never said thats how I think or felt. But realistically, a PD wants his program to look good. And if I'm a PD, I worry someone with a very low step 1 score might not pass the boards. And residency is basically useless if you can't pass the boards.
                                         

                                        nycitygas

                                        Full Member
                                        10+ Year Member
                                        Jan 6, 2011
                                        517
                                        121
                                        Texas
                                        1. Attending Physician
                                          The worst anesthesia program in the country in the worst location in america can fill if it wants. Anesthesia isnt rads or optho but competitive enough. The 50 unfilled spots for the most part come from overzealous ranking by the PD who most likely would rather take scrambler or a transfer (a gen surg/ med/ obgyn ect resident) then someone with multiple red flags (failed steps, failed rotations and so forth.).
                                          Anyways, Congratulations to our new colleagues and welcome to the best field in medicine!
                                           

                                          sev1

                                          Full Member
                                          Nov 17, 2010
                                          36
                                          0
                                            The worst anesthesia program in the country in the worst location in america can fill if it wants. Anesthesia isnt rads or optho but competitive enough. The 50 unfilled spots for the most part come from overzealous ranking by the PD who most likely would rather take scrambler or a transfer (a gen surg/ med/ obgyn ect resident) then someone with multiple red flags (failed steps, failed rotations and so forth.).
                                            Anyways, Congratulations to our new colleagues and welcome to the best field in medicine!

                                            Any program in any field can fill if they wanted to. Not really specific to anesthesia. Really at worst an fmg would be more then happy to fill random FM programs I am sure.

                                            PD rank who they want to fill, but this year is no different then any other. With the large number of seats you are bound to have some seats not fill.
                                             

                                            BrockDoc

                                            Cock your hat...
                                            10+ Year Member
                                            7+ Year Member
                                            Nov 24, 2007
                                            546
                                            11
                                            1. Resident [Any Field]
                                              The worst anesthesia program in the country in the worst location in america can fill if it wants. Anesthesia isnt rads or optho but competitive enough. The 50 unfilled spots for the most part come from overzealous ranking by the PD who most likely would rather take scrambler or a transfer (a gen surg/ med/ obgyn ect resident) then someone with multiple red flags (failed steps, failed rotations and so forth.).
                                              Anyways, Congratulations to our new colleagues and welcome to the best field in medicine!

                                              How would said medicine resident (soon to be BE/BC hospitalist) go about securing one of those spots?
                                               

                                              Arch Guillotti

                                              Senior Member
                                              Staff member
                                              Administrator
                                              Volunteer Staff
                                              Lifetime Donor
                                              Verified Expert
                                            • Aug 9, 2001
                                              8,844
                                              4,333
                                              1. Attending Physician
                                                Is there any reason the list can't be posted at this point? Match is over. Scramble is over. Etc, etc.

                                                Yes, there is a reason - hence my deletion of the three above posts.

                                                I deleted posts that contained information about unmatched positions. One post was speculative in nature, but clearly based on insider knowledge.

                                                This is no joke. The NRMP takes this very seriously and so does SDN.

                                                If I understand correctly, the data will be released on Monday at which time it will be publicly available (but don't quote me on this).
                                                 

                                                Doctor4Life1769

                                                **tr0llin, ridin dirty**
                                                10+ Year Member
                                                Apr 28, 2008
                                                34,250
                                                908
                                                Where the grass is always greener
                                                1. Resident [Any Field]
                                                  Is there any reason the list can't be posted at this point? Match is over. Scramble is over. Etc, etc.

                                                  The reason is the NRMP states that anyone who lists information about scramble spots prior to them releasing it is committing a "match violation" if caught ... so SDN is protecting everyone by following their rules and deleting those posts.
                                                   
                                                  About the Ads
                                                  This thread is more than 10 years old.

                                                  Your message may be considered spam for the following reasons:

                                                  1. Your new thread title is very short, and likely is unhelpful.
                                                  2. Your reply is very short and likely does not add anything to the thread.
                                                  3. Your reply is very long and likely does not add anything to the thread.
                                                  4. It is very likely that it does not need any further discussion and thus bumping it serves no purpose.
                                                  5. Your message is mostly quotes or spoilers.
                                                  6. Your reply has occurred very quickly after a previous reply and likely does not add anything to the thread.
                                                  7. This thread is locked.