55% Img match rate

[sga430]

i heard the match rate this year for IMGs is 55%. If you decide to go to a foreign school and don't match, don't be suprised. In comparison more than 90% of US grads match. This alone should deter someone from going to a foreign school. Even if one matches, this stat tells you how much harder it is, especially somthing like ortho or radio. Stay in America. Case closed.

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[Faebinder]

ya.. Don't mean to be negative but I agree... Page 3 of this link on nrmp.

54.5% of active green cards/ Non-US citizens FMGs don't match.

50.0% of active US citizens (IMGs) don't match.

 

[Blitz2006]

On the surface it looks bleak,

but it also depends where you go to school.

I read somewhere that of the 50%ish that do get matched, it is something like 35-40% of those that are from Western European/Carribean schools (these aren't concrete numbers, but approx.). So really, if you go to a solid British school or a place like St.Georges/SABA, things aren't so bad So yeah, IMGs are at a strong disadvantage, but I don't think its as bleak as people make it sound.

A lot of people that don't match struggle to do well on USMLEs because english is their second language, etc.

I'm sure if english is your first language, you do a couple electives in the U.S and obtain some solid LORs, you can achieve your goal.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[sga430]

i dont mean to be bleak. i matched and i am an IMG. however many high school seniors (like me at one time) are clueless and just think about getting into a med school without looking ahead.

also my stat demonstrates by reason how IMGs are effectively shut out of 90% of the specialites. (of course there are exceptions.)

 

[leorl]

I've told you before. everyone choosing the IMG path knows this before going. If they didnt, they didnt do enough (read: any) research beforehand and have no grounds to be surprised. The data is readily availailable on the nrmp website. I am going to start closing these threads.

SDN's purpose for the international forums is not to discourage people from going. It's to encourage those who have made a choice to go, and those who already at foreign schools. We already know that odds are not the most favorable and have chosen reasons to go abroad other than job security. SDN provides person experiences and advice, knowing that those who chose the IMG path have gone a potentially harder route.

 

[Blitz2006]

i dont mean to be bleak. i matched and i am an IMG. however many high school seniors (like me at one time) are clueless and just think about getting into a med school without looking ahead.

also my stat demonstrates by reason how IMGs are effectively shut out of 90% of the specialites. (of course there are exceptions.)

You missed my point.

My point was that where in the world you graduate also plays a large role. If you graduate from a school and from a country that is relatively 'unknown' in the U.S, then yes, you will most likely be 'shut out'. However, if you graduate from schools/countries that have a good reputation within the U.S, its not so bad.

I have tons of friends who have matched from Caribbean/Ireland/UK, in solid specialities too (e.g. Orthopedics, Neuro, Gen Surgery).

Is it tougher as an IMG? Of course. But thats like what people told us in highschool about getting into med school, thats its 'tough' and 'probably won't happen'.

Look where we are now..

 

[Droopy Snoopy]

The other day I was looking at the match statistics from that NBME report and was struck by the number of FMGs that only rank one or two programs. Is this simply due to these applicants getting fewer interviews, or is there some fundamental misunderstanding whereby FMGs aren't fully informed about the match process? Because putting only one program on a ROL is a recipe for disaster no matter where you're from.

 

[sga430]

also imgs dont apply wide enough. i applied to over 170 programs in psych and recieved 48 invites. i could only go to 44 interviews and i matched at #19 on my RoL. it is a good solid university program in a decent city. my strategy worked.

also i beleive many IMGs are still misinformed and go abroad for the wrong reasons. i believe this forum will be doing a diservice if it only presented one view only. yes there are imgs who do get into ortho surgery, etc but this is often the exception. one should be forewarned if there is even the slightest possibility they would like ortho or derm, to atleast try getting into a us med school. if they cant get into a us med school then there is a good possibility they would not be able to get into ortho coming from a foreign school.

 

[Shah_Patel_PT]

You missed my point.

My point was that where in the world you graduate also plays a large role. If you graduate from a school and from a country that is relatively 'unknown' in the U.S, then yes, you will most likely be 'shut out'. However, if you graduate from schools/countries that have a good reputation within the U.S, its not so bad.

I have tons of friends who have matched from Caribbean/Ireland/UK, in solid specialities too (e.g. Orthopedics, Neuro, Gen Surgery).

Is it tougher as an IMG? Of course. But thats like what people told us in highschool about getting into med school, thats its 'tough' and 'probably won't happen'.

Look where we are now..

the match rate of US citizens at schools like Ross and St George is close to 80%.

 

[Blitz2006]

Check out this thread:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=378855

Not so shabby is you ask me.

 

[Prop]

Being an FMG (not US citizen) and studying in western Europe, I have given this alot of thought.

At first, the 50-55% matching rate for IMG's was discouraging, and I thought that I would never get the opportunity to practice in the US.

However, when You think about it, that's what we should expect. People going to US med schools will always have the best choices for residency (and that's how it should be in my opinion), and the rest of us will have to do with the leftovers.

That being said, I'm sure it's possible for anybody to land a residency position in the US, You just have to do Your best on the boards, and really stand out from the rest of the bunch (research, publications, US clinical experience, etc).

For a person going to med school in the Caribean or western Europe, I think the level of knowledge is comparable with that of any US grad (I do admit that some of the US schools are way ahead of the rest of the world, but this is the very elite ones, the rest is similar to most western European schools).

I'm not trying to say that med schools in the rest of the world are inferior or anything, I've met many excellent students and doctors from India, Pakistan and so on... the point is, that in my country we also prefer local students or doctors instead of people trained in other countries.
I guess this is because it's easier for a local person to understand the culture and way-of-thinking, and that's an important asset for a health proffesional, since we're dealing with other people all the time.
This supports my argument that most students from Caribean and western European med schools should be able to match in a US program, since the culture and way-of-thinking is very similar, and we should fit right in with the rest of the people.

In conclusion, I think the best thing an IMG can do to improve his/hers chances of getting that residency spot (besides the obvious ones mentioned earlier), is to really understand the US culture end mentality. Because, if You don't understand them, how would You expect them to understand You?

 

[Winged Scapula]

also imgs dont apply wide enough. i applied to over 170 programs in psych and recieved 48 invites. i could only go to 44 interviews and i matched at #19 on my RoL. it is a good solid university program in a decent city. my strategy worked.

also i beleive many IMGs are still misinformed and go abroad for the wrong reasons. i believe this forum will be doing a diservice if it only presented one view only. yes there are imgs who do get into ortho surgery, etc but this is often the exception. one should be forewarned if there is even the slightest possibility they would like ortho or derm, to atleast try getting into a us med school. if they cant get into a us med school then there is a good possibility they would not be able to get into ortho coming from a foreign school.

I don't think leorl or anyone else means to make this forum representative of only "one side". Rather we encourage professional and valid discourse on every subject.

The problem is that the vast majority of your posts ARE one-sided, without admitting there are lots of reasons why some FMGs/IMGs do not match:

1) the match stats do NOT contain info on those who take "pre-matches"; this is a large number in the FMG community, thus the NRMP stats are skewed

2) as you note, a lot of FMGs do not apply wisely; they only apply to couple of programs.

3) many may suffer visa or language issues.

At any rate, the reasons for low match rates are legion. Our role here is to HELP those that may be considering such a decision as to go abroad for medical school or come to the US for residency training. There is nothing wrong with telling FMGs/IMGs that they are not likely to be the exception to the rule and match into Plastics. We freely admit that it is difficult but rather than practically suggest that it cannot be done, why not offer examples and suggestions as to how it *might* be done successfully.

 

[sga430]

on the psych thread i offer such advice on how to get a psych residency after med school. in this thread the advice on how to get a residency is mainly in the form of which school to go to in order to accomplish this to those in high school.

 

[paheli]

If the match rate for IMGs is is in the mid-50s, I'm somewhat relieved. I thought it is much more difficult. Not saying that getting in got any easier for me now, but it means I only need to be able better than half the applicants who applied. Also, not saying that that's all that I need to do. USCE and LoRs are still very important. But, if you consider stats, to enter in to premier technological or medical institutes where I come from[India], their acceptance rates after the qualifying exam are in the single digits. So, actually, the picture isn't that bleak. I think it's doable.
But, I should continue to treat this exam with the respect it deserves!

 

[CatsandCradles]

i heard the match rate this year for IMGs is 55%. If you decide to go to a foreign school and don't match, don't be suprised. In comparison more than 90% of US grads match. This alone should deter someone from going to a foreign school. Even if one matches, this stat tells you how much harder it is, especially somthing like ortho or radio. Stay in America. Case closed.

I was wondering, could those numbers be a reflection that some IMGs don't speak English as their first language - and so they had a harder time with the examinations and rotations?

I imagine that for Americans doing medical schools overseas, the match number would be much better.

 

[leorl]

yes, the OP seems to like to state the obvious and exaggerate it into some disastrous hinderance. It's terribly annoying. Having said that, I have met quite a few US IMGs who have failed either step 1 or step 2, mainly because they don't realize at the time how much study needs to be devoted towards it, and finding time for dedicated study in a foreign school can be difficult.

 

[Faebinder]

I was wondering, could those numbers be a reflection that some IMGs don't speak English as their first language - and so they had a harder time with the examinations and rotations?

I imagine that for Americans doing medical schools overseas, the match number would be much better.

Matching is all about your scores now a days. With the availability of USMLE world wide and J-1 visa given like candy, the number of applicants has jumped up the roof. Any doctor now anywhere in the world can take the steps and apply to get residency here in the US, with pretty much no limitation. It was much easier to be a foreign graduate back in the days when the USMLE was not offered world wide.

The number of IMG/FMG applicants each year continues to increase as well since the year before continues to provide a list of applicants that did not succeed in the match of the year before. So for you to match, you have to be above the curve that everyone world wide has set for you in your field. Speaking English natively helps as long as it helps you do better on the USMLE, otherwise, no one really care if you got an accent. You will still get an interview based on your scores.

Being a US citizen helps with the fact that you don't need a visa, but like I said, J-1 visas are given like candy and most programs sponser it, so it's not much of an advantage.

 

[Faebinder]

yes, the OP seems to like to state the obvious and exaggerate it into some disastrous hinderance. It's terribly annoying. Having said that, I have met quite a few US IMGs who have failed either step 1 or step 2, mainly because they don't realize at the time how much study needs to be devoted towards it, and finding time for dedicated study in a foreign school can be difficult.

I know several US citizen IMGs that didn't match for multiple years. It's not exaggerated as you state it. I agree with the OP. And most of all, I disagree that it is obvious. Tell the new applicants to any off shore school that there is a 50% chance they wont find a residency spot after they graduate and might have to work minimum wages to survive while they wait years to match and then watch their reaction about going off shore. Most off shore schools tell you who matched and where but they dont tell you who/how-many didnt match.

 

[leorl]

my main point is that most people going abroad have reviewed the nrmp site prior to making their decision to study abroad, and continue following it throughout their med school life. This statistic is a very well-known one. It's not up to schools to publish it. If it is not known to someone before starting med school abroad, then they simply did not do enough research or preparation before making a decision to study abroadIt is not up to the OP to be some sort of saviour for IMGs by telling them to study in the US. Most people have already reviewed such information and made the decision to go anyway, with the correct expectations. If not, then that person is at fault for whatever false hopes and consequences ensue.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I was wondering, could those numbers be a reflection that some IMGs don't speak English as their first language - and so they had a harder time with the examinations and rotations?

I imagine that for Americans doing medical schools overseas, the match number would be much better.

The difficulty with the English language and the manner in which US examinations are administered can create problems for some FMGs. I also agree with leorl that some examinees, whether ESL or not, do not understand the need to devote study time to the examinations.

However, I think the low match rate is not soley a factor of taking the USMLEs multiple times, but rather a combination of that, bias against FMGs/IMGs, lack of planning when it comes to applying (geographically, number of programs, types of programs, etc.), lack of US experience (which is not required but I think helps a lot), etc. It also includes people who try to match decades after completing their training, some of whom may have not practiced medicine in years. IMHO, these people have almost no hope of matching.

The OP does use some scare tactics to blow the situation out of proportion. Like I tell my patients, statistics can be useful but because they are population based, they do not necessarily apply to YOU.

 

[LanceArmstrong]

Here's my story as an IMG (US citizen):

*143 IQ (1993)
*1500 on the SAT's (1997)
*Graduated Magnet High school (1998) and went to MIT
*Started stormy relationship with a beautiful woman (1999)
*Got Married (2001)
*Had a kid (2002)
*Graduate MIT with and 2.9 GPA (2.5 science), biochemistry degree, a 1 year old kid and a wife (2003)
*Decided to go to a foreign medical school due to GPA, family circumstances (2003)
*235 Step 1 (2005)
*230 step 2 (2006)
*Applied to 130 programs / 20 interviews offered / went on 18 (2006)
*Matched in my #12 choice an average Internal Medicine Community Program (2007)

In a program where I did my last rotation there were MANY FMG's from India, Pakistan, China, Ghana, Nigeria, and Americans from carribbean schools like Ross, AUA etc. doing rotations come March 15th on 2 out of all of them not including myself matched anywhere.

Finally, this is not to scare anyone - but this is my experience, so good luck in your endeavours whatever they might be.

 

[Faebinder]

Here's my story as an IMG (US citizen):

*143 IQ (1993)
*1500 on the SAT's (1997)
*Graduated Magnet High school (1998) and went to MIT
*Started stormy relationship with a beautiful woman (1999)
*Got Married (2001)
*Had a kid (2002)
*Graduate MIT with and 2.9 GPA (2.5 science), biochemistry degree, a 1 year old kid and a wife (2003)
*Decided to go to a foreign medical school due to GPA, family circumstances (2003)
*235 Step 1 (2005)
*230 step 2 (2006)
*Applied to 130 programs / 20 interviews offered / went on 18 (2006)
*Matched in my #12 choice an average Internal Medicine Community Program (2007)

In a program where I did my last rotation there were MANY FMG's from India, Pakistan, China, Ghana, Nigeria, and Americans from carribbean schools like Ross, AUA etc. doing rotations come March 15th on 2 out of all of them not including myself matched anywhere.

Finally, this is not to scare anyone - but this is my experience, so good luck in your endeavours whatever they might be.

I rest my case... the OP is correct. It aint what it used to be for US IMGs. You are lucky if you got something.

 

[ajce9]

I've told you before. everyone choosing the IMG path knows this before going. If they didnt, they didnt do enough (read: any) research beforehand and have no grounds to be surprised. The data is readily availailable on the nrmp website. I am going to start closing these threads.

SDN's purpose for the international forums is not to discourage people from going. It's to encourage those who have made a choice to go, and those who already at foreign schools. We already know that odds are not the most favorable and have chosen reasons to go abroad other than job security. SDN provides person experiences and advice, knowing that those who chose the IMG path have gone a potentially harder route.

I graduated and am an IMG and got residency etc.
I don't think the purpose of the forum is to give both sides the chance to express themselves. It is not appropriate to just encourage someone to go regardless of if they have made their choice or not.

It is also not appropriate for a moderator to threaten to close the post in an international forum when the topic is about international issues. This is in the bylass of SDN. As long as the topic stays on topic it can be discussed.

Why do you feel that you have the right to tell someone not to voice their opinion in this forum. so far all that I have read on this post is very accurate.

 

[leorl]

You are correct, that statement should have been explained a bit more. What I should have explained is that I've received numerous complaints about both this thread and a similar one started by the OP in another forum. Once we start receiving multiple reports, we start looking at the threads more closely to see if it warrants closure. At the moment, this thread does not. However, with a lot of similar posts started by a user for the same purpose, we have to wonder if we have a troll on our hands, and this is what I'm suspicious of. A new poster(s), all of a sudden starting threads with an anti-IMG slant,

I've said this a million times before. We are here to encourage those who chose the IMG path for whatever reason. Everyone already knows this path has dangers, and they chose it anyway. This is a place for IMGs to discuss their concerns, not dichotomize the group with warning signs. It's like preaching to the choir for no reason.

 

[leorl]

Sorry for your experience Lance. You must be somewhat happy though? I have to say in contrast, that people in my graduating class with scores less than yours got their #1 choices (California and MCW) at pretty hefty programs. It might depend not so much that you're an FMG, but to which locations you applied, how you interviewed, and supporting letters of reference. Which school you're applying from may also have something to do with it. However, these factors are hard to compile, as each program may be looking for different things and different qualities.

 

[ajce9]

You are correct, that statement should have been explained a bit more. What I should have explained is that I've received numerous complaints about both this thread and a similar one started by the OP in another forum. Once we start receiving multiple reports, we start looking at the threads more closely to see if it warrants closure. At the moment, this thread does not. However, with a lot of similar posts started by a user for the same purpose, we have to wonder if we have a troll on our hands, and this is what I'm suspicious of. A new poster(s), all of a sudden starting threads with an anti-IMG slant,

I've said this a million times before. We are here to encourage those who chose the IMG path for whatever reason. Everyone already knows this path has dangers, and they chose it anyway. This is a place for IMGs to discuss their concerns, not dichotomize the group with warning signs. It's like preaching to the choir for no reason.

thank you for your response. I understand. I also think that anyone that comes to and IMG forum and start writing anti-IMG material (for the sole purpose of being a troll) should be stopped.

this is a place were IMGs should be able to freely express their opinions. Some of those opinions may be from those who are just looking into going the international route. Those individuals should get all the facts, good and bad.

And we both know there are many bad thing about going the international route. But there are good things as well.

Again, thank you for your reply.

 

[sga430]

You are correct, that statement should have been explained a bit more. What I should have explained is that I've received numerous complaints about both this thread and a similar one started by the OP in another forum. Once we start receiving multiple reports, we start looking at the threads more closely to see if it warrants closure. At the moment, this thread does not. However, with a lot of similar posts started by a user for the same purpose, we have to wonder if we have a troll on our hands, and this is what I'm suspicious of. A new poster(s), all of a sudden starting threads with an anti-IMG slant,

I've said this a million times before. We are here to encourage those who chose the IMG path for whatever reason. Everyone already knows this path has dangers, and they chose it anyway. This is a place for IMGs to discuss their concerns, not dichotomize the group with warning signs. It's like preaching to the choir for no reason.

i dont believe i am a troll. however i did get a little exhuberant and do apologize. i am a long time member of sdn forums and am somewhat (in)famous and popular on the psychiatry threads for going on 44 interviews. i have been complimented on the interview trail as being supportive. i have been posting for a while on the psychiatry thread and if u dont believe me start a poll there asking others whether i should be banned and i am certain i would get a favorable response.

i did match into a great program into a speciality of my choice. however i felt a lot of the posts i read indicated ignorance about the international route - especially concerning india. for example some posts were concerned with the rep of indian school a versus b. my point is it is almost irrelevant in terms of getting a residency as it is almost meaningless. however this may not be true for the carribean schools as these are more well known. my purpose was to correct this ignorance. however this ignorance is natural. i didnt know anything about the img situation till i finished med school. most of the future imgs ask 60 year old imgs or 1st year med students at the school they plan to go to. i believe neither would be informative about the topic regarding getting matched.

the other point i wanted to emphasize was that it is likely that 90% imgs would effectively be shut out of 95% of the specialities (ie anything other than IM, psych, FP, nuclear medicine and perhaps Gen. surgery.) yes u can get double 99s and all but this easier said than done. a lot of people think they can be in the top 10% and i encourage this. hell i applied to harvard. i always say aim high. my other point is that if u r 18 you r too young to make the decision to be a doc arguably. u r DEFINATELY too young and inexperienced to make up your mind what speciality you want. yet by deciding to go the img route, u effectively narrowed down your choices. the problem is when you are 18 you r way more concerned about getting into med school. i think u should be more concerned about getting a residency as even if u dont get into a med school u can THEN go the international route. however if u dont get residency here u dont have many options other than work in another country or change proffesions.

i feel many 18 year olds considering going the IMG route would not have known the above were it not for me. they just had a vague sense of knowing that getting a residency is harder yet they do not know that they would not get derm or ortho. i recently met a 3rd year med student who got 82 on step 1 and wants to go into ortho. i hope he gets it and i told him to apply to it. yet i told him to also consder other fields as back up. if i trolled, i apoligize. yet i have no motive to troll. and for me the img route did work out eventhough it took more time and money in the end.

also my post encourge others to do step 1 after 2nd year. i feel this is valuable advice. i did step 1 almost a decade after my dissection classes.

i feel my posts r helpful. yet i do agree it was getting repetive after a while but i feel i steered a future dermatologist on a more logical path. if i accomplished this i succeeded.

 

[sga430]

You missed my point.

My point was that where in the world you graduate also plays a large role. If you graduate from a school and from a country that is relatively 'unknown' in the U.S, then yes, you will most likely be 'shut out'. However, if you graduate from schools/countries that have a good reputation within the U.S, its not so bad.

I have tons of friends who have matched from Caribbean/Ireland/UK, in solid specialities too (e.g. Orthopedics, Neuro, Gen Surgery).

Is it tougher as an IMG? Of course. But thats like what people told us in highschool about getting into med school, thats its 'tough' and 'probably won't happen'.

Look where we are now..

i agree neuro and general surgery are quite possible. i heard neuro is quite easy in comparison to IM (not sure though.)

however if u want to go into ortho it is better to stay in the US. also ur img buddies would have probably got into general surgery and ortho in undesirable locations and programs. most 18 year olds going the international route would not even dream of going to such places or even applying there. however later on reality would hit them. lets have reality hit them now instead.

 

[ajce9]

If you want to go to an international school you need to come to terms with the fact that you may very likely not get the chance to match into a specialty of your choice.

But, IM, FM, Neuro, Gen. Surg., these are fields that many US grads want.

I know right now the trend is Specialist but this is only true because of money. that is going to change in the not so far future.

In a way even US grads are not really going into what they really want due to money.

 

[LanceArmstrong]

Sorry for your experience Lance. You must be somewhat happy though? I have to say in contrast, that people in my graduating class with scores less than yours got their #1 choices (California and MCW) at pretty hefty programs. It might depend not so much that you're an FMG, but to which locations you applied, how you interviewed, and supporting letters of reference. Which school you're applying from may also have something to do with it. However, these factors are hard to compile, as each program may be looking for different things and different qualities.

Yes I also had a few classmates get more competetive residencies, and also many who didnt match at all unfrotunately.

Fair or unfair its really a numbers game - if I'm unhappy where I end up I'll reapply somewhere else...

 

[LanceArmstrong]

If you want to go to an international school you need to come to terms with the fact that you may very likely not get the chance to match into a specialty of your choice.

But, IM, FM, Neuro, Gen. Surg., these are fields that many US grads want.

You mean don't want right...except for surgery


Surgery is pretty competetive for imgs

 

[ajce9]

You mean don't want right...except for surgery


Surgery is pretty competetive for imgs

I should have said, IM, gen surg is what US grads want. They need IM to get into specialties.

Gen. Surg. is becoming less competitive.

 

[sga430]

well not all specialites require IM. like ENT, ortho, physiatry, etc.

i recommend reading "how to choose a medical speciality" by mr. freeman. (google around amazon to get the exact title.) it discussess everything from cruise ship medicine to physiatry. there are other offbeat specialities like nuclear medicine that are img friendly.

btw check out my img friendly program list at:
http://www2.blogger.com/profile/14812537204047909625

 

[ajce9]

well not all specialites require IM. like ENT, ortho, physiatry, etc.

i recommend reading "how to choose a medical speciality" by mr. freeman. (google around amazon to get the exact title.) it discussess everything from cruise ship medicine to physiatry. there are other offbeat specialities like nuclear medicine that are img friendly.

btw check out my img friendly program list at:
http://www2.blogger.com/profile/14812537204047909625

Actually I'm a board certified physician already and the purpose of the post was not to get into details of getting a residency but to just point out some general issues about getting a residency.

You are correct in pointing out that not all specialties need an IM.

ENT, ortho are not IMG friendly residencies.

Nuclear medicine is but you will need to do a prelim year. Also, since many radiologist also do this, this can limit you. I suggest that if someone if interested in nuclear medicine they first finish a general residency so if things backfire they have somewhere to fall back to.

 

[sga430]

i know a friend who did a year of IM and then went into nukes. another possible factor is that the us gov't will only fund a certain number of years of residency for one person. not sure what the rules r.