Daodejing

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Currently trending as the 5th most popular/read article on TIME.com, right behind election drama and a failed hand transplant at UPMC. Exciting stuff..

I have to vent...so excuse me. Here we have another familiar "article" about how rich doctors as a group are by a major media outlet. Title reads as "Surgeon Salary: Here's how much doctors make". Yes of course...because all doctors are surgeons. And even better, let's start the article off with a bang by giving a $400k salary for orthopods to draw in the layman even further. Oh oh and let's rip some data off Medscape, which has lika sub-20% survey response rate from those in practice. The casual reader doesn't know that; why bother to tell them the fine print?

The media's infatuation with physician compensation needs to stop. It is at the very least an annoyance, and at its worst a misdirected inaccurate portrayal of a career that requires some of the highest economic, academic, and personal investments & sacrifices any individual can make. Not only that, it paints us in broad brushstrokes as the whitecoat-donning, Ferrari-driving socioeconomically elite milking patients of their money. Those days are long gone and in the rearview mirror..

I understand the public deserves transparency, but this isn't the way to do it. Transparency necessitates accuracy and accountability. It should start from the members of the hospital/ACO/insurance brass that somehow rarely make the spotlight and continue to rake in the lion's share.

If the article does anything right, it attempts to highlight the wage gap between genders. For that I can give it an ounce of merit, but oh wait it's at the very end..
/endrant
 

Instatewaiter

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Without demonizing doctors, how can the government plan to slash their compensation to pay for the coming socialization of medicine? It is a common heuristic of politicians on both sides.

If you demonize the rich, then it seems like stealing more of their money through taxation is justified. If you demonize doctors then you can cut their pay. If you demonize black people then you can take their lives without recourse. If you demonize immigrants, breaking apart families and kicking them out of the country becomes easy. If you demonize the jews you can try and exterminate them (Hitler).

No matter the side of the political spectrum you fall on, do not be blind to the tools of those to try to oppress you. People use fear and anger to whittle rights away whether property rights, liberty or even the right to life.

We are at a very dangerous time in our country when both major parties are aimed at taking away your rights...
 

cbrons

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Currently trending as the 5th most popular/read article on TIME.com, right behind election drama and a failed hand transplant at UPMC. Exciting stuff..

I have to vent...so excuse me. Here we have another familiar "article" about how rich doctors as a group are by a major media outlet. Title reads as "Surgeon Salary: Here's how much doctors make". Yes of course...because all doctors are surgeons. And even better, let's start the article off with a bang by giving a $400k salary for orthopods to draw in the layman even further. Oh oh and let's rip some data off Medscape, which has lika sub-20% survey response rate from those in practice. The casual reader doesn't know that; why bother to tell them the fine print?

The media's infatuation with physician compensation needs to stop. It is at the very least an annoyance, and at its worst a misdirected inaccurate portrayal of a career that requires some of the highest economic, academic, and personal investments & sacrifices any individual can make. Not only that, it paints us in broad brushstrokes as the whitecoat-donning, Ferrari-driving socioeconomically elite milking patients of their money. Those days are long gone and in the rearview mirror..

I understand the public deserves transparency, but this isn't the way to do it. Transparency necessitates accuracy and accountability. It should start from the members of the hospital/ACO/insurance brass that somehow rarely make the spotlight and continue to rake in the lion's share.

If the article does anything right, it attempts to highlight the wage gap between genders. For that I can give it an ounce of merit, but oh wait it's at the very end..
/endrant
Lost you at the gender wage gap thing, since that is a stupid issue and not due even remotely to discrimination.

Sent from my SM-N910P using SDN mobile
 

benjamin94559

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Do you really believe that people generally do not consciously choose to pay women less than men?
I had to read a few books on income inequality for my capstone and the bulk of them said that the gender income gap ususally goes away once you start looking at things like hours worked, industry choice etc. The question then becomes why is our economy and culture structured to push women in to these lower paying specialties/jobs which I feel people dont want to have that conversation.
 

IslandStyle808

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I had to read a few books on income inequality for my capstone and the bulk of them said that the gender income gap ususally goes away once you start looking at things like hours worked, industry choice etc. The question then becomes why is our economy and culture structured to push women in to these lower paying specialties/jobs which I feel people dont want to have that conversation.
Not really pushed in some situations, it is a matter of choices. Some women choose to take an active role in raising kids for instance. This can lead the mom with an engineering degree into something like teaching or into a part time role to spend more time with their kids. I had an interview with a woman who was an EM doc. She works only once a week and chose to do so to raise her child. She stated to increasing her hours once her child becomes older. I don't believe culture/economy to be the main reason for this (possibly a smaller reason).
 

benjamin94559

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Not really pushed in some situations, it is a matter of choices. Some women choose to take an active role in raising kids for instance. This can lead the mom with an engineering degree into something like teaching or into a part time role to spend more time with their kids. I had an interview with a woman who was an EM doc. She works only once a week and chose to do so to raise her child. She stated to increasing her hours once her child becomes older. I don't believe culture/economy to be the main reason for this (possibly a smaller reason).
but culture is PRECISELY the reason for this otherwise we'd have similar levels of men choosing to do things like teach or move into part time work. there is much less societal stigma towards stay at home moms compared to stay at home dads.

i will conceed that the economy isnt all that structured to do it though, at least not so much in healthcare.
 

IslandStyle808

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but culture is PRECISELY the reason for this otherwise we'd have similar levels of men choosing to do things like teach or move into part time work. there is much less societal stigma towards stay at home moms compared to stay at home dads.

i will conceed that the economy isnt all that structured to do it though, at least not so much in healthcare.
Very fair point.

I believe the culture is slowly changing and their are more stay at home dads on the rise. It is very true that their is a pressure of the mom to take care of the children. However, I see it as them breaking out of the role of the stay at home mom. I believe it will be a progressive role to the both where moms and dads both take more of an active role in taking care of the kids. As well as stay at home dads are accepted by culture just as much as stay at home moms. It will all be a matter of how the family wants to structure itself and not so much society/culture.
 

benjamin94559

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Very fair point.

I believe the culture is slowly changing and their are more stay at home dads on the rise. It is very true that their is a pressure of the mom to take care of the children. However, I see it as them breaking out of the role of the stay at home mom. I believe it will be a progressive role to the both where moms and dads both take more of an active role in taking care of the kids. As well as stay at home dads are accepted by culture just as much as stay at home moms. It will all be a matter of how the family wants to structure itself and not so much society/culture.
Do you believe that decisions on how to structure family can ever be divorced from society/culture? The family is one of the most important "units" of culture no?

Of course culture is slow moving but then the question becomes should we as a society strive to move culture faster to what we define to be "ideal" but then we get into the broad questions for which there isnt really an answer lol
 

jw3600

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I haven't done the research for the possible wage gap among genders for other fields but anytime I hear someone bring it up in any medical field I immediately consider them a full blown moron. Do they think Medicaid checks the gender of the physician before billing? Do they think blue cross does? Do residencies and fellowships check pants for certain genitalia? Anyone with any experience knows all first year RNs start at $X/hour. Same with RTs. Same with scribes and techs. And same with physicians. It keeps popping up on here and my social media and it drives me insane....
 

Donald Juan

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I haven't done the research for the possible wage gap among genders for other fields but anytime I hear someone bring it up in any medical field I immediately consider them a full blown moron. Do they think Medicaid checks the gender of the physician before billing? Do they think blue cross does? Do residencies and fellowships check pants for certain genitalia? Anyone with any experience knows all first year RNs start at $X/hour. Same with RTs. Same with scribes and techs. And same with physicians. It keeps popping up on here and my social media and it drives me insane....
Yes, but medicare does rely on satisfaction surveys, and people can lose pay from insurance companies based on certain outcomes and follow up procedures. Not to mention that billing is not just, see a patient, perform x get paid y. It's often based on making sure your documentation has checked off the boxes or given a thorough enough history/physical to bill for the maximum amount possible given the type of patient. Since men obviously perform better on these (given that they make more) then it means the system is sexist.
 

jw3600

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Yes, but medicare does rely on satisfaction surveys, and people can lose pay from insurance companies based on certain outcomes and follow up procedures. Not to mention that billing is not just, see a patient, perform x get paid y. It's often based on making sure your documentation has checked off the boxes or given a thorough enough history/physical to bill for the maximum amount possible given the type of patient. Since men obviously perform better on these (given that they make more) then it means the system is sexist.
tell me this joke
 

Crayola227

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yes, unfortunately the studies that show women give more ****s about people than men, I could definitely see women being less likely to shortchange the patient so they could spend more time checking the boxes to get paid more, if we want to run with the above posters BS that hopefully is a joke
 

Donald Juan

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tell me this joke
yes, unfortunately the studies that show women give more ****s about people than men, I could definitely see women being less likely to shortchange the patient so they could spend more time checking the boxes to get paid more, if we want to run with the above posters BS that hopefully is a joke
I don't see what's so funny about institutionalized sexism. You should both check your privilege.
 
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Greenberg702

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Yes, but medicare does rely on satisfaction surveys, and people can lose pay from insurance companies based on certain outcomes and follow up procedures. Not to mention that billing is not just, see a patient, perform x get paid y. It's often based on making sure your documentation has checked off the boxes or given a thorough enough history/physical to bill for the maximum amount possible given the type of patient. Since men obviously perform better on these (given that they make more) then it means the system is sexist.
This is partially true but in no way can account for the pay disparity between men and women. The vast majority of outcome metrics have not yet been incorporated by CMS and most bundles are still in pilot phases (joint arthroplasty might be the most developed). Moreover, the financial penalties for the things you mention hover around 1-2%, and don't even go into effect until 2018-2019. Men make more because they on average work longer hours/take more call, resulting more procedures and RVUs, yielding greater pay - plain and simple.
 
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The comments on the Times facebook page are pretty rational. They discuss how incorrect that male vs female pay study is and about how much debt we have, so that's good
 

Mascota

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I find it a bit ironic that, in the pursuit of gender equality in the work place, the message I keep hearing is that women should become "doctors, lawyers, and engineers!" but no one seems to have a problem with plumbers, construction workers, welders, being almost exclusive male dominate careers. These are good paying jobs. Why is there no push for equality in these fields? There seems to be some hypocrisy in the message.
 

Stagg737

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but culture is PRECISELY the reason for this otherwise we'd have similar levels of men choosing to do things like teach or move into part time work. there is much less societal stigma towards stay at home moms compared to stay at home dads.

i will conceed that the economy isnt all that structured to do it though, at least not so much in healthcare.
That stigma exists because biologically and practically it makes more sense for moms to be stay-at-home than the dads. Women are the ones carrying the baby through pregnancy, they're the ones who give birth and need recovery time afterward, women are the ones breastfeeding the child until they move onto formula or solid foods. The infant is directly physically dependent on the mother for years while they are not dependent on the father in that way. Through that physical dependence, women frequently have a stronger and closer bond to the infant than men do. While the woman is doing all that, someone in the relationship had to support her in other practical ways (in ancient times it was gathering food and providing protection, modern times it's bringing in the money). So it makes sense that there would be a stigma which promotes women to stay at home to care for the infant (at least temporarily) while the men would continue to support the family financially. Once those roles are established, it's often easier to just continue in them than change. It's not just a cultural thing, it's a biological thing.
 

The_Bird

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I find it a bit ironic that, in the pursuit of gender equality in the work place, the message I keep hearing is that women should become "doctors, lawyers, and engineers!" but no one seems to have a problem with plumbers, construction workers, welders, being almost exclusive male dominate careers. These are good paying jobs. Why is there no push for equality in these fields? There seems to be some hypocrisy in the message.
I won't go into the "why" because that's fairly self-evident, but when my mom (a trucker) was at a tech school for her CDL training, scholarships and other incentives were offered to women in several trade programs, in order to draw them into those fields.
 
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I too have read multiple dismissals of the gender wage gap myth. Even when one does exist, to attribute it solely to discrimination is faulty because there will always be other residual factors unaccounted for. If I can pay women less and they provide greater care (as someone hinted at) then please let me know and I will start a practice of exclusively women in the future.

I was not able to gain access to the studies the article cited so I can't effectively deduce if their methods were valid or not. That said, most studies are flawed and (worse) most lay articles about studies take things out of context to make a story.
 

PL198

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I had to read a few books on income inequality for my capstone and the bulk of them said that the gender income gap ususally goes away once you start looking at things like hours worked, industry choice etc. The question then becomes why is our economy and culture structured to push women in to these lower paying specialties/jobs which I feel people dont want to have that conversation.
it's not about how the economy is structured. its the choice they make.
 

PL198

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but culture is PRECISELY the reason for this otherwise we'd have similar levels of men choosing to do things like teach or move into part time work. there is much less societal stigma towards stay at home moms compared to stay at home dads.

i will conceed that the economy isnt all that structured to do it though, at least not so much in healthcare.
no it has nothing to do with culture. it's a biological imperative. what other cultures do the men and women raise the kids in equal amounts?
 

Crayola227

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it's not about how the economy is structured. its the choice they make.
no it has nothing to do with culture. it's a biological imperative. what other cultures do the men and women raise the kids in equal amounts?
You realize you just contradicted yourself. On one hand you say it's a choice, on the other, you say it's a biological imperative.

Basically men get to parasitize female parental investment. We should just be content earn less while we carry and breastfeed your children.

**** that. Make it like Germany. They're giving women money just for giving birth.
 
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PL198

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You realize you just contradicted yourself. On one hand you say it's a choice, on the other, you say it's a biological imperative.

Basically men get to parasitize female parental investment. We should just be content earn less while we carry and breastfeed your children.

**** that. Make it like Germany. They're giving women money just for giving birth.
you're right on the contradiction. I would still call it a choice but biology is definitely pushing them one way on the choice.

the parasite thing, that's hilarious. It's a mutually beneficial relationship. Do you think that's the standard relationship for no reason? The man is the provider and the woman is the caregiver. Worked for a while now....
 
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Señor S

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I have to vent...
The hypersensitivity of this board is getting bizarre. Somebody writes an article about how orthopedists make a lot of money and it annoys you because they don't mention that some CEOs make even more?

Doctors as a group make a lot of money. Orthopedists make a lot of money even by physician standards. Those are perfectly accurate statements.
 
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Crayola227

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This is literally a line I would expect Stephen Colbert to use while making a parody about feminism.
someone on this board literally characterized me as an eccentric feminist

I'm serious
 

Mad Jack

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I had to read a few books on income inequality for my capstone and the bulk of them said that the gender income gap ususally goes away once you start looking at things like hours worked, industry choice etc. The question then becomes why is our economy and culture structured to push women in to these lower paying specialties/jobs which I feel people dont want to have that conversation.
The majority of women, well over 70%, would prefer to work part time and spend more time with their children. What I would ask is not why the wage gap exists, but why women can no longer afford to spend the time they desire with their children. Those that don't want children or prefer to focus on their careers should be able to do so and earn as much as men, but why do we never ask why women are disproportionately forced to work in situations that they do not desire in American society.
 

Crayola227

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100% what Mad Jack said
I wonder what the men polled would say
I can't believe I'm going to say this on this board
I think there's even biology to make this argument
women love their children more than men do
 
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Crayola227

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granted this was back in med school and they showed us studies and claimed even if you accounted for kids and part time employees lady docs still made less

they just said the gap was a lot narrower than it was in a lot of other fields

so, yay, being a lady med professional sucks the least when it comes to gender pay disparities
 
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Daodejing

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The hypersensitivity of this board is getting bizarre. Somebody writes an article about how orthopedists make a lot of money and it annoys you because they don't mention that some CEOs make even more?

Doctors as a group make a lot of money. Orthopedists make a lot of money even by physician standards. Those are perfectly accurate statements.
Lolwut? Read what I said again. It annoys me, as it should you, because the public reads and trusts media outlets like this one whether what it spews out is truth or not. I'm not faulting the post for mentioning an avg orthopods salary or any of the other specialties for that matter. Transparency should be universal though. Instead of articles year in and year out painting doctors as economically more fortunate (srsly no one needs to be reminded), they can finally start writing and disclosing the mysterious incomes of the hospital and insurance executives. These people earn exponentially more, of which there's no doubt. In addition, they're not the ones having CMS breathing down their neck or RVUs being annually slashed..

I'm annoyed and quite honestly frustrated that they don't get more of the spotlight. Reform won't happen and attitudes won't change in our country until the status quo speaks up. Articles like these keep fueling the media machine that "educates" our patients that doctors are the ones that take their money. How much of each patient visit's cost actually gets appropriated to the doctor after the hospital/facility/HMO are finished eating their slice of the pie? Pennies on the dollar..
 

Señor S

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Lolwut? Read what I said again. It annoys me, as it should you, because the public reads and trusts media outlets like this one whether what it spews out is truth or not. I'm not faulting the post for mentioning an avg orthopods salary or any of the other specialties for that matter. Transparency should be universal though. Instead of articles year in and year out painting doctors as economically more fortunate (srsly no one needs to be reminded), they can finally start writing and disclosing the mysterious incomes of the hospital and insurance executives. These people earn exponentially more, of which there's no doubt. In addition, they're not the ones having CMS breathing down their neck or RVUs being annually slashed..

I'm annoyed and quite honestly frustrated that they don't get more of the spotlight. Reform won't happen and attitudes won't change in our country until the status quo speaks up. Articles like these keep fueling the media machine that "educates" our patients that doctors are the ones that take their money. How much of each patient visit's cost actually gets appropriated to the doctor after the hospital/facility/HMO are finished eating their slice of the pie? Pennies on the dollar..
Articles about CEO (insurance or otherwise) compensation are very common.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/18/sunday-review/doctors-salaries-are-not-the-big-cost.html?_r=0

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/living/health-family/article58446903.html

https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2015/08/17/hospital-ceo-pay-continues-rise/uT1fS4pXmmu1h1tJDBGcvL/story.html

The people who criticize doctors' salaries would be just as critical, probably more so, of CEO salaries. That article you linked was completely true inasmuch as the survey it referenced was true and thus the public should trust it.

Like many on this board I think you're just very defensive and insecure and get angry at anything that isn't overtly worshipful of physicians.
 
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benjamin94559

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That stigma exists because biologically and practically it makes more sense for moms to be stay-at-home than the dads. Women are the ones carrying the baby through pregnancy, they're the ones who give birth and need recovery time afterward, women are the ones breastfeeding the child until they move onto formula or solid foods. The infant is directly physically dependent on the mother for years while they are not dependent on the father in that way. Through that physical dependence, women frequently have a stronger and closer bond to the infant than men do. While the woman is doing all that, someone in the relationship had to support her in other practical ways (in ancient times it was gathering food and providing protection, modern times it's bringing in the money). So it makes sense that there would be a stigma which promotes women to stay at home to care for the infant (at least temporarily) while the men would continue to support the family financially. Once those roles are established, it's often easier to just continue in them than change. It's not just a cultural thing, it's a biological thing.

Sure. I agree whole heartedly that there is a biological structure to it. As a society we need to discuss and decide however, if we should try to level that playing field more or not. We can use pumps and i vaguely remember reading somewhere that men bottle feeding children causes similar bonding relations as women breastfeeding.
 

Crayola227

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Sure. I agree whole heartedly that there is a biological structure to it. As a society we need to discuss and decide however, if we should try to level that playing field more or not. We can use pumps and i vaguely remember reading somewhere that men bottle feeding children causes similar bonding relations as women breastfeeding.
Pumps are very problematic for a lot of reasons, also have been linked to abandoning breatfeeding and turning to formula.
 

PL198

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Sure. I agree whole heartedly that there is a biological structure to it. As a society we need to discuss and decide however, if we should try to level that playing field more or not. We can use pumps and i vaguely remember reading somewhere that men bottle feeding children causes similar bonding relations as women breastfeeding.
no
 

zeppelinpage4

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You realize you just contradicted yourself. On one hand you say it's a choice, on the other, you say it's a biological imperative.

Basically men get to parasitize female parental investment. We should just be content earn less while we carry and breastfeed your children.

**** that. Make it like Germany. They're giving women money just for giving birth.
I don't think he's saying that women should be expected to stay at home with the child for biological reasons.
More that, since there is often that strong biological connection there, a woman might feel a stronger urge to want to stay at home with the baby. So the woman is making an active choice, but said choice is affected by biology. This obviously doesn't apply to all women, but I wouldn't be surprised if this was a factor. I'm assuming many things though and won't say I'm right, but that's the best guess I have.

And of course, it doesn't change that fact that there are situations where a woman might feel pressure or guilt to stay home with the baby, even when she does not want to. That should be addressed.
 
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mehc012

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I had to read a few books on income inequality for my capstone and the bulk of them said that the gender income gap ususally goes away once you start looking at things like hours worked, industry choice etc. The question then becomes why is our economy and culture structured to push women in to these lower paying specialties/jobs which I feel people dont want to have that conversation.
The hours worked, etc. is what usually gets discussed (e.g. the rest of this thread's response thus far) but people don't tend to look at industry choice as much. I found this study to be an interesting discussion of the long-term trends in both pay level and gender distribution in various fields. I'm not sure we can pick out a simple relationship between the two with so many other factors at play, but it was an interesting read nonetheless.