A Challenging Ethical Question

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - MD' started by Legend, Sep 12, 2001.

  1. Legend

    Legend Super Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2001
    Messages:
    860
    Likes Received:
    1
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    How would you answer this?

    Bin Laden comes to ER bleeding severely and you (a doc) need to perform a surgical procedure immediately in order to save his life. Laden keeps on threatening you to let him die or your family will be in danger.
    What would you do?

    --sorry for such an unrealistic situation.
     
  2. Thread continues after this sponsor message. SDN Members do not see this ad.

  3. Scooby Doo

    Scooby Doo IEatShavedPussyCats

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2001
    Messages:
    3,797
    Likes Received:
    1
    Serve him as any other patient..that would be my responsibility as a doctor.
    SIMPLE question...
     
  4. SocialistMD

    SocialistMD Resident Objectivist

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2001
    Messages:
    2,913
    Likes Received:
    11
    Status:
    Fellow [Any Field]
    Why on earth would I save him if he did not want to be saved? Is he not afforded the same right to choose whether to live or die? If a patient does not want to live, I will never save them, be it my mom or a complete stranger. There is just no point, and I feel I am violating his/her rights as a human.
     
  5. Scooby Doo

    Scooby Doo IEatShavedPussyCats

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2001
    Messages:
    3,797
    Likes Received:
    1
    Oops...I misread the question..that's what I get for drinking and posting :) haha

    NEVER EVER DRINK and POST!

    It makes you look like an idiot...

    Of course...always respect the patients wishes....
     
  6. rxfudd

    rxfudd 1K Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2001
    Messages:
    1,343
    Likes Received:
    4
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    Why would he come to the ER if he did not want you to save his life? Perhaps you mean that he was in the hospital and needed a life-saving operation. In this situation, you cannot deny his fundamental right to reject treatment.
     
  7. 6 to 8 Weeks

    6 to 8 Weeks Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    54
    Likes Received:
    0
    Everyone has the right to protect themselves and their loved ones. If he is obviously threatening you, you are in danger. Your safety as the care-giver is first.

    Hmm, I was just thinking about all of the fire and policemen who were inside the building when it collapsed. It seems that they may have been too quick to enter the building before it was safe to do so... well i'm not to certain about any of that. Just a random thought.
     
  8. 6 to 8 Weeks

    6 to 8 Weeks Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    54
    Likes Received:
    0
    When patients' wishes differ from what I think is medically best for them, I would ONLY respect their wishes after they are fully informed of the situation and have fully rationalized that decision in their own minds and based on their own beliefs.
     
  9. LOL my gosh...I couldn't stop laughing...how would this be an ethical question? wouldn't you LET HIM die...I mean how many people would let him live even if he asked us to help him?

    besides, I would be even more worried, cause if he was talking about letting him die and killing himself....I would grab my tooshie, warn and run out of the hospital...he could be stuck to some explosives or something...

    so, I hope that helps....besides, like how many people would let him live? HELLO...
     
  10. Legend

    Legend Super Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2001
    Messages:
    860
    Likes Received:
    1
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    Perhaps, I was thinking that the doctor should save him because he may have a further information leading to more terrors.
     
  11. jasmine

    jasmine Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2001
    Messages:
    94
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yeah, this is sort of farfetched.

    But the fact that Osama Bin Laden should stand trial also has something to do with the ultimate decision - he deserves to be brought to justice, and letting him die, letting him control his mode of death, is letting him win.

    This fact affects the way the the US will carry out its retaliation.

    This is all so stupid and senseless. It seems ridiculous to ask about AMCAS or whatever. Life just got more complicated.
     
  12. Drako

    Drako Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2001
    Messages:
    300
    Likes Received:
    1
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    Is it Osama bin Laden that did all this? Or is it someone else? How does one makes sure that one knows it is the right person/people one is persecuting? Conclusion before undeniable proofs is not very wise...
     
  13. jasmine

    jasmine Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2001
    Messages:
    94
    Likes Received:
    0
    OK, then, should top suspect Osama bin Laden be the one to be the criminal behind this then of course he should be brought to justice.
     
  14. Scooby Doo

    Scooby Doo IEatShavedPussyCats

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2001
    Messages:
    3,797
    Likes Received:
    1
    6 to 8 weeks,

    I think we have a right to respect the patients wishes (but you are right after they are fully informed)...however, DNR requests must be signed on a specific form etc etc...But if someone refuses treatment, I don't think we are allowed to go in and try to save them (no matter who they are). The only way we could do anything, is if we get a lawyer/judge to give us the go ahead that we are not breaking the law. I may be off on this, but this is what I believe to be correct...
     
  15. rohitbest

    rohitbest Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2001
    Messages:
    112
    Likes Received:
    0
    i think this would be a more ethical question if the poster said that he wanted to live. assuming he is the one that is responsible for the terrorism, would you try to save him or let him die. It reminds me of that last ER, where the doctor (forgot his name) was in the elevator alone with the guy who killed a lot of people, and he faked the shocks, so the patient would die. Of course, if he said he wanted to die, and he was a patient who was not mentally incompetent to make that decision, I would have to honor his beleifs. That reminds me of that "trauma in the ER", where that Johova's witness did not want a blood transfusion, because that is her belief, the doctor had to watch her die.
     
  16. Thread continues after this sponsor message. SDN Members do not see this ad.

  17. none

    none 1K Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2001
    Messages:
    1,903
    Likes Received:
    5
    It is VERY important to remember that the U.S. government and no one in the U.S. populace should want this man dead. Much like we did not execute the bombers of the initial WTC attack and we did not execute the spy in the FBI, we should not execute Osama Bin Laden if at all possible. He knows far too much.
     
  18. 6 to 8 Weeks

    6 to 8 Weeks Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    54
    Likes Received:
    0
    Good point scooby. If someone doesn't want you to treat them, they will try and stop you , possibly hurting you in the process. So if you fear they will harm you in any way, you have a right to protect yourself and not offer them treatment.
     
  19. mj

    mj Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2000
    Messages:
    786
    Likes Received:
    1
    Isn't this based on your judgement (psychs judgement depending on time) as to the patients ability to make a resonable decision and the patients capacity. For example, procedures can be done without consent in a life threatening situation on the basis that a rational person would want the treatment and you don't have time to wait and ask. What's that line where it gets grey?

    mj
     
  20. mdtrauma

    mdtrauma Junior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    0
    Treat him like any other patient. Many people make statements they don't mean in time of impending doom. Treat him...then prosecute him to the fullest extent of the law.
     
  21. trouserz

    trouserz Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2001
    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    0
    lol if been crappin came into my er...... oops there goes my licence he is gonna die folks hmmm lets weigh this.... a license or my family, the thousands of people who died and their families who need closure. hmmm goin to the cafeteria for a donut
     
  22. trouserz

    trouserz Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2001
    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    0
    better yet id stay there to make sure he died whether he liked it or not. all of his organs would be harvested except for his chancre ridden gonads and his brain
     
  23. styphon

    styphon Senior Member
    Physician

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2001
    Messages:
    713
    Likes Received:
    275
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    I have heard of paramedics on my squad dealing with uncoorporative patients who refuse needed treatment..
    The paramedics will let the person pass out, going to convulsions, or go flatline..The EMTS can then treat this patient, since it is "Implied consent".
    So for Bin Laden.After he passes out from hypovelmic shock, I would treat him.
     
  24. Smoke This

    Smoke This Sweet cuppin' cakes!

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2001
    Messages:
    766
    Likes Received:
    2
    Anyone else heard of "enigmatic refusal?"

    I thought it was ethically obligatory to treat someone with a life-threatening condition if the reasons for refusal haven't been clearly elucidated and you suspect that the patient's decisionmaking capacity may be compromised. DNR orders (and bin Laden) aside, what would you do if a patient suddenly and inexplicably told you to go away? Just let him die? I think that could be considered negligent.
     

  25. well it would be awfully hard giving CPR to someone who wants to punch you in the face ;)


    look down below for more info....

    Trick answer :D (loook further down)

    someone who needs CPR is usually unconscious...so IN THEORY, they couldn't punch you in the face ;)
     
  26. Smoke This

    Smoke This Sweet cuppin' cakes!

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2001
    Messages:
    766
    Likes Received:
    2
    If someone is trying to fight you, that would just further the case that this individual isn't in a state to competently make decisions for him/herself (barring someone with a DNR order, a Jehovah's Witness refusing a transfusion, etc., or some other reason for refusal). I think that this person should be sedated and then treated if it's life-threatening.

    Still, if someone who needs CPR is trying to fight, just wait for him or her to pass out and then take over. :rolleyes:
     
  27. Street Philosopher

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2000
    Messages:
    6,276
    Likes Received:
    7
    Either you guys are lying sons of b*tches or really dumb. I'd kill that mutherfocker the first chance I get.
     

Share This Page