1. Dismiss Notice
  2. Download free Tapatalk for iPhone or Tapatalk for Android for your phone and follow the SDN forums with push notifications.
    Dismiss Notice

A fun little graphic about debt

Discussion in 'Psychology [Psy.D. / Ph.D.]' started by Magick91683, Sep 13, 2018.

  1. Magick91683

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2016
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    122
    Status:
    Psychology Student
    Was researching about student loan debt for psychologists and this website popped up first. Thought the attached pic was cute, and terrifying.

    Also.....does anyone know of someone who has actually received PSLF? I have honesty only heard of horror stories where people think they are going to get it and then something goes wrong somewhere in the process.

    Got debt? View attachment debt.pdf

    Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile
     
    DynamicDidactic likes this.
  2. Note: SDN Members do not see this ad.

  3. Sanman

    Sanman O.G.
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2000
    Messages:
    1,333
    Likes Received:
    236
    Status:
    Psychologist
    That APA, trying to crush our collective dreams and keep us down.

    Nope, don't know anyone that actually made it through the PSLF process.
     
  4. Magick91683

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2016
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    122
    Status:
    Psychology Student
    I know. I'm feeling sad . And a similar article from apa published in 2011 showed the average debt was significantly lower. It just keeps climbing and climbing.

    Every single person I know who has tried to get PSLF has gotten hung up in the red tape. Their paperwork gets messed up, they fail to recertify, or some other thing goes wrong. One person I know thought he was going to have his debt forgiven only to find out the 10 years didn't count because he failed to consolidate.. Or something like that. Is PSLF just this mythical creature that doesn't really exist? Maybe it was only created by the government to encourage students to take out more loans. Blah

    Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile
     
  5. PSYDR

    PSYDR Psychologist
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2005
    Messages:
    2,310
    Likes Received:
    1,590
    "How much will I earn? $65,000 median, full time non post doc salaries from 2010-2014."


    :boom:


    The median income of truck drivers at like $70,0000. You could literally drop out of high school, get a CDL, and earn more than what psychologists make by 22 without all those pesky years of education.


    I swear, one day I'm going to force everyone to actually work, and actually make money.
     
  6. Magick91683

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2016
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    122
    Status:
    Psychology Student
    Do it!!! But the question is... How?

    Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile
     
  7. Magick91683

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2016
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    122
    Status:
    Psychology Student
    Cool. Thanks!!

    Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile
     
  8. Justanothergrad

    Justanothergrad Counseling Psychologist
    Psychologist Faculty 5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2013
    Messages:
    1,256
    Likes Received:
    790
    The problem with reporting 'mean' debt or 'mean' earning is that it is dragged by outliers. This is especially problematic in discussions of debt as we have a clear bimodal distribution in terms of average debt accrued (e.g., none is ~25% and above 100k is approximately 25% as well; see graphic). This is an increasingly pronounced problem as predatory programs (typically, although not exclusively, PsyD) represent a larger and continually growing portion of the workforce. Around 40% have under 30k in debt - a manageable debt load, even if not ideal. The already extremely skewed distribution is likely pronounced further by historically including both accredited/non-accredited internships into a single description since we know that internship outcome is highly depedent on the starting quality of the program. The thing that matters most is not 'average' but what characteristics steady predict the 25% of folks who have zero debt.

    [​IMG]
    FYI, Skew = 4.358


    TLDR; never report means for a non-normal distrubtion kids- it violates a statistical assumption.
     

    Attached Files:

  9. Magick91683

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2016
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    122
    Status:
    Psychology Student
    That graphic is pretty outrageous. I can't even fathom going into hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt just for grad school. Damn.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile
     
  10. Justanothergrad

    Justanothergrad Counseling Psychologist
    Psychologist Faculty 5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2013
    Messages:
    1,256
    Likes Received:
    790
    It caused me substantial anxiety to even create. For a truly frightening experience remember that reported debt excludes (1) any additional debt taken on during internship because of when the survey is distributed by APPIC and (2) any debt during undergrad or other graduate training not in psychology. Thus, this is likely not all of the debt held by graduates.
     
    Therapist4Chnge likes this.
  11. Magick91683

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2016
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    122
    Status:
    Psychology Student
    Or how about this. As I type this, two men are installing crown molding in two rooms of my house. These rooms are 10x12. I already had the materials and the paint (failed DIY home project). I will pay them 500 bucks. It will take them TOPS two hours, but likely just one hour.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile
     
  12. Magick91683

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2016
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    122
    Status:
    Psychology Student
    This is outrageous. I'm becoming increasingly anxious about my own debt, which is not 6 figures but VERY close. I was so stupid in undergrad. I am kicking my 18 year old self.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile
     
  13. PSYDR

    PSYDR Psychologist
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2005
    Messages:
    2,310
    Likes Received:
    1,590
    Beyond $65k? Take medicare, which bills out at like $88/hr for psychotherapy. Do the thing where you see 6 patients a day for psychotherapy. That's $2640/week or around $10k/month. Split office rent and a billing service with like 2 other psychologists. Take a whole month off every year, and you're still at around $100k. That's not even including an assessment or group here and there. Or even more specialty stuff like marriage counseling, forensics, neuro, consulting, late hours, etc.
     
  14. Magick91683

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2016
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    122
    Status:
    Psychology Student
    That's literally my exact plan.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile
     
  15. Justanothergrad

    Justanothergrad Counseling Psychologist
    Psychologist Faculty 5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2013
    Messages:
    1,256
    Likes Received:
    790
    Some numbers to show what debt does with a few basic assumptions
    1. Earning income with the mean
    2. 2% increase in pay per year
    3. No other debt
    4. Starting career age of 30 (did a 25year career trajectory, but folks can easy expand for 30-35, whatever)

    I'm in the lab with an undergrad RA right now and she finds this "painful" and "unsettling"
     

    Attached Files:

    #14 Justanothergrad, Sep 14, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018
    Magick91683 likes this.
  16. PSYDR

    PSYDR Psychologist
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2005
    Messages:
    2,310
    Likes Received:
    1,590

    You should try for better or try to innovate. I doubt this model is going to last another 50 years.
     
  17. Sanman

    Sanman O.G.
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2000
    Messages:
    1,333
    Likes Received:
    236
    Status:
    Psychologist

    If you have patience, my non-innovative plan is this. However, I plan on owning real estate including the office building as a second income stream. I have more innovative plans that need to fail first.
     
    Magick91683 likes this.
  18. Ollie123

    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2007
    Messages:
    4,640
    Likes Received:
    1,044
    Status:
    Psychology Student
    Don't have the actual numbers to back it up, but one of the things that I find most unsettling is I would wager there is an inverse relationship between debt load and salary (i.e. those with the most debt are stuck in the lower paying jobs). 65k is unfathomable to me. 90k is about the norm starting salary in AMCs these days, even in mid-low COL areas. And the benefits are usually impressive (my total comp adds on about 30-35%). Yet these jobs are tough to get coming from the types of program that come with a 200k cost. I don't think we have a single grad from the usual suspects in my entire department.

    Wife and I are DINKs, both earning WELL above the median numbers in a mid COL area. We're fine, but I still feel like we're playing financial catchup after all the years in school. And most of that catchup (saving the down payment for the house, hardcore retirement savings) would have been far more difficult with even a $500/month loan payment, let alone a $2000/month one.
     
  19. Justanothergrad

    Justanothergrad Counseling Psychologist
    Psychologist Faculty 5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2013
    Messages:
    1,256
    Likes Received:
    790
    Yup. The non-equal distribution of wages is also likely compacting this trend

    My salary puts me in the ~90% for new assistant profs at R1s (estimated since APA releases means but not SD for new faculty salaries - an odd statistical absence one has to note) and I have a nice package to go along with it and 0 debt. Still, I'm playing catch up from lost income over the years of grad school. Compound interest over time on small retirement is a major loss- folks need to be doing EVERYTHING they can to put some money in retirement during graduate school. It's not always possible, but its a major long term gain.
     
    Therapist4Chnge and Magick91683 like this.
  20. Sanman

    Sanman O.G.
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2000
    Messages:
    1,333
    Likes Received:
    236
    Status:
    Psychologist
    Actually, I find grad school to be the worst time to put money away for retirement. I didn't put anything away then. However, I contributed to a Roth IRA every year from ages 14-21.
     
  21. Ollie123

    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2007
    Messages:
    4,640
    Likes Received:
    1,044
    Status:
    Psychology Student
    Had some money sitting in a low-yield savings account at a brick & mortar during grad school because stupid. Didn't put a penny in retirement. Definitely regret it, but extremely grateful to be in a position I can afford to make up some lost ground now.
     
    Therapist4Chnge and Magick91683 like this.
  22. Justanothergrad

    Justanothergrad Counseling Psychologist
    Psychologist Faculty 5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2013
    Messages:
    1,256
    Likes Received:
    790
    Yeh, well- that would be ideal. Not having that base egg at the start of a career is problematic though. I had a second job in grad school and used it to ensure I was able to live how I wanted and then put some into my already existing IRA-roth (cause post tax when you make nothing is the way to go) just to grow it.
     
  23. DynamicDidactic

    DynamicDidactic Ass of Prof
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2010
    Messages:
    891
    Likes Received:
    238
    Status:
    Psychologist
    I am using both graphics for teaching! Thanks @Magick91683 and @Justanothergrad

    FWIW, the original graphic uses median debt, which is a very useful number for undergrads. I will show them the more detailed bar graph as well but undergrads need more simple info.
     
    Magick91683 likes this.
  24. Magick91683

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2016
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    122
    Status:
    Psychology Student
    I REALLY wish this stuff would have been covered in both undergrad and grad school.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile
     
  25. Magick91683

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2016
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    122
    Status:
    Psychology Student
    Ack... Ok. Well firsts thing first is I have to get licensed so my plan is to take the EPPP in December. After I pass I'll be able to get licensed in one of that states I want to work. Then I can start doing forensic evals with my old supervisor and work toward abpp in forensic psychology.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile
     
  26. Magick91683

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2016
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    122
    Status:
    Psychology Student
    I can't even begin to think about retirement. This stuff really stresses me out. I think I may need a financial planner or something.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile
     
  27. Justanothergrad

    Justanothergrad Counseling Psychologist
    Psychologist Faculty 5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2013
    Messages:
    1,256
    Likes Received:
    790
    It'd be wise to get comfortable with your own retirement planning. It may stress you out, but thats a poor reason to not be informed about it. You'll be more stressed later if you don't plan now. The more you know the better choices you can make. I'd suggest the Bogelhead strategy as a good starting point for learning key principles. Even if you're not trying to make enough to be the next bill gates, the ideas will put you in a good place with a stable future.
     
    Magick91683 likes this.
  28. Sanman

    Sanman O.G.
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2000
    Messages:
    1,333
    Likes Received:
    236
    Status:
    Psychologist
    Very true. Being a bit of a financial geek, my take away from all the reading and strategies is that doing the simple stuff means you will be okay. The last 10% is the only stuff that is complicated. By simple stuff, I mean get comfortable with maxing out your 401k/IRA early in your earning years and keep doing that consistently until you retire. Stick that money into a diversified portfolio. There are many easy options for this. The 10% is when you have maxed out all the traditional avenues and still have more money. However, that is a good problem to have and no matter what you do from there you won't die broke.
     
  29. Justanothergrad

    Justanothergrad Counseling Psychologist
    Psychologist Faculty 5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2013
    Messages:
    1,256
    Likes Received:
    790
    Yup.

    I calculated it and I invested 20% of my earnings last year, including my match, into retirement, not counting the % in accessible savings accounts. I don't ever want to be poor again. Been there, done that, and I wasn't particularly impressed with the experience.
     
    Magick91683 likes this.
  30. Magick91683

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2016
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    122
    Status:
    Psychology Student
    It's like you are speaking German to me. I need to do a lot of research on all these things because no one has ever taught me them

    Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile
     
  31. DynamicDidactic

    DynamicDidactic Ass of Prof
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2010
    Messages:
    891
    Likes Received:
    238
    Status:
    Psychologist
    If I am accurate, I think you are on internship. If yes, I didn't think about retirement till my first real job, which was after a 2-year postdoc. We have some very savvy and committed savers on this forum, which I don't think represents most psychologists. Now that I have a real job I started actively thinking about retirement, which is funny. Things change a lot once you are actively working as opposed to barely getting by with stipend/internship/postdoc money. I was lucky that my job comes with a good state retirement plan. I also just bought my first home and that also makes me feel much more prepared for the future.
     
    Magick91683 likes this.
  32. Therapist4Chnge

    Therapist4Chnge Neuropsych Ninja Faculty
    Faculty Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2006
    Messages:
    21,340
    Likes Received:
    2,240
    Status:
    Psychologist
    Not investing during grad school/internship/fellowship was regrettable for me. I thought i’d make it up on the back-end, but the economy stalled and well...i’m playing catch-up. I can’t imagine doing this at <$100k/yr; we need to do better as a profession.
     
    Hoop Jumper, PSYDR and Magick91683 like this.
  33. Ollie123

    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2007
    Messages:
    4,640
    Likes Received:
    1,044
    Status:
    Psychology Student
    The Millionaire next door - Thomas Stanley
    Bogleheads guide to investing - Lindauer
    White coat investor - James Dahle

    Can get them used for $30 total if not available via other means. Read them slowly and expect to go through them twice before you remember some of the nuance. If you follow the advice, you are probably 98% of the way to being on a (very) good financial path. There is a lot of posturing and complexity to the remaining 1% but it won't have much meaningful impact on your financial life in the grand scheme of things. I think folks worry about it more as a hobby than anything.

    One key you will pick up on from the books is that paralysis and ignoring it is extremely common, but just about the worst thing you can do. Getting started early is hugely important. Good investing should be simple (until you get to the last 1-2% or so I reference above), so if it seems overly complicated it is probably bad advice.

    PS - I got zero education in this too. Grew up in a lower middle class blue collar family that has now probably eeked into middle class by retirement. Any savings went in a savings account. Retirement came via pensions (Teamsters) and social security. No real career advice to be had and finances were never discussed.

    I mention all this just to make a point that it doesn't need to be scary. It WILL seem overwhelming coming in with zero background. It was for me. Learning to do therapy was too. Both got easier. Both were worth it.
     
    #32 Ollie123, Sep 14, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018
  34. Magick91683

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2016
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    122
    Status:
    Psychology Student
    Thank you so much!

    Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile
     
    Therapist4Chnge likes this.
  35. Magick91683

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2016
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    122
    Status:
    Psychology Student
    I just graduated and am completing my post - doc now. And I think I'm also a little rattled bc I have been in this student role for so long and this transition feels a tad overwhelming.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile
     
    Therapist4Chnge likes this.
  36. PSYDR

    PSYDR Psychologist
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2005
    Messages:
    2,310
    Likes Received:
    1,590
  37. Magick91683

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2016
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    122
    Status:
    Psychology Student
    Well here is the answer to one of my questions, kinda:

    "As of December 31, 2017, there are 802,040 cumulative Public Service Loan Forgiveness borrowers.
    Since 2012, 1,361,184 employment certification forms have been approved and 705,362 have been denied."


    Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile
     
  38. Pragma

    Pragma Neuropsychologist
    Psychologist 5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2011
    Messages:
    3,118
    Likes Received:
    512
    Status:
    Psychologist
    You submit those forms every year. Could be people submitting with employment that doesn’t qualify.
     
  39. Magick91683

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2016
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    122
    Status:
    Psychology Student
    True. I know people who submit these forms. I have yet to know someone who has received the money after 10 years.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile
     
  40. MAClinician

    MAClinician Masters level clinician
    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2016
    Messages:
    128
    Likes Received:
    96
    Status:
    Non-Student
    I thought I read PSLF didn’t become an option until 2007, so the first group wouldn’t be eligible until 2017. I could be very wrong though :shrug:
     
  41. Magick91683

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2016
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    122
    Status:
    Psychology Student
    That I don't know... I shall go Googling

    Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile
     
  42. Magick91683

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2016
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    122
    Status:
    Psychology Student
    At least one person has received it. Screenshot_20180916-155644_Chrome.jpeg

    Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile
     
  43. Pragma

    Pragma Neuropsychologist
    Psychologist 5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2011
    Messages:
    3,118
    Likes Received:
    512
    Status:
    Psychologist
    Yeah people just became eligible for forgiveness recently.
     
    Magick91683 likes this.
  44. Magick91683

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2016
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    122
    Status:
    Psychology Student

Share This Page