A little upset with PAs lately

[drift]

Interesting you should say that, because those are the only 3 courses PAs here don't take from the M1 curriculum. They get all the other stuff: gross anatomy, physiology, pharmacology, genetics, immunology, microbiology, behavioral sciences, & pathology. As for the M2, it appears PAs are receiving the full system study of medicine the M2s are receiving. Not sure about other schools, but that's how it is here.

Arai,

You are trying to do exactly what FutureDoc is saying. I agree with emed's post, in that in my experience PA students generally have more hours of class a week then med students. That along with the fact that in your curriculum you read a class called "physiology" and then you look over to the med student's curriculum and you find a class called "physiology," and you automatically think, I am taking the same class as the medical student. This is just not true. PA & MD/DO training has become quite intertwined over the years. Most programs have atleast 2-3 classes if not more together amongst PA/MD students. They are generally also both set to a similar academic standard in those classes (but not always). Although, it is simply impossible to say that a PA endured medical school minus 3 classes (because that is how you're post comes off as). In the roughly 2.5 years of PA school, the first year is like emed mentioned a hybrid of the first two years of medical school. In this hybrid, several aspects of MD education are reduced. Histology, embyology and (to a lesser degree) biochem come to mind. Although, it is important to note that you don't learn all the physiology that the medical student learns. Plus, you are not responsible to know the intricacies of Gross Anatomy that a medical school is responsible to. This list could go on for a few other classes.

The original concept of PA education was a streamlined Medical School. Emphasis on streamlined. PAs are taught the most important aspects of medical school. By doing so, several parts of medical school are excluded. To say you only exclude 3 classes is quite asinine honestly. PAs learn a good amount of clinically relevant medical school, along with specific classes specialized in PA education, but while comparable, they are absolutely NOT the same. They are two different fields with DIFFERENT ROLES, as recognized by the PAs on this board and yourself. I would say that in my experience a PA gets around 35% coverage of first year and 80% coverage of second year of medical school. Furthermore, a PA will get around 85% of third year of medical school and about 10-15% of fourth year. Also, I will admit that there is a learning curve, in that one may learn more in the first 4 weeks of a rotation for example then the last 4 weeks, so if a PA rotation is half the time as the MD rotation, it doesn't necessarily mean that he is learning 1/2 as much as the MD student, but probably somewhere more in-between.

But, most importantly, why only give yourself the credit of only being a ~60-65% equivalent of a non-residency trained physician (med student), when you can give yourself the credit of being a 100% board certified PA-C licensed to practice all fields of medicine and surgery along with a supervising doc?

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[Dr Oops]

I agree that the MCAT is much more difficult than the GRE. However, is the first year of med school more intense than the first year of PA school?

The school I am at has both a MD and a PA program. The PA1s do 87 credits in 16 consecutive months. The MD1+MD2 (i.e., both MD didactic years combined) complete 87 credits in 20 non-consecutive months. So, you tell me. Is the first year of the MD program (8-9 months) more intense?



They don't learn learn all the same things. Pretty close though. PAs generally have studies that are more focused on clinical diagnosis/treatment and less focused on intricacies of basic medical science--you know, the stuff most med students forget once they finish USMLE Step 1 (i.e., remembering which cytokine is responsible for immune suppression).

In the end, PA school and MD/DO school are all about laying a foundation education. Both programs do a good job at this.

Well said. No one likes to be looked down on or spoken down to. If a MD student comes out and says "in school, we receive a far superior education when compared to PAs," it wouldn't be unforeseeable for a PA to try and explain similarities in terms of a MD program.

Only those with falsely inflated egos might try to chastise statements such as "PAs take most of the same classes as MDs."


I agree. Even if people do bring in facts, they just get explained as being flukes.

Your really showing your ignorance here. First off the MCAT is WAY WAY harder than the GRE.

2nd credit hours mean jack ****. After talking to my friends in my class who used to be PAs and Who are probably smarter than I; its clear that PA classes are not on the level of Med student classes. They are good for what they are intended, i.e. teach you guys what you need to know but, not nearly in depth as what we do (remember this is from former PAs-emphasis on the plural).

3rd of all you have no idea how much of those clinical sciences i will remember. I have seen docs spout off the most esoteric and minute details that I dont even remember, just because i told them i was covering that subject. You have no idea what they will remember, as opposed to your never being experienced to it at all (dont want to sound like an ass here, because i actually respect the PA education, but this is the position ive been forced into by your hubris).

You're absolutely right nobody likes to have their education looked down on. Ive always thought the PA education was much better than an NP education. However, the medical school education is much more rigorous and in depth than a PA education, which you seem to like to deny. Theres absolutely nothing wrong with this. Alot of times when im stuck in a windowless room till 4:00am in the morning I wonder wouldnt it be nice to be a PA right now; earning a good salaray, after training for 2 years (the part I envy the most-as I have to spend my glory years as a student with no money to spend) and working pretty good hours. So even if we were to say the that the PA education is comparable to rigor to the med student education the fact that you say what you do in 2 years is equivalent (or "comparable") to what we do in 4years is most certainly insulting.

As for a MD/DO saying that when they are done with school they have received a far greater education than a PA, its not ego or pride, its simply fact. That education took twice as long to earn, is it really so impossible to believe that its more in depth than a PA education? Before you say well you need a residency to be on the level of PA, let me say that with a residency we most certainly pass the level of a PA. This is not ego, simply a matter of 4 extra years of training; but even 4th year medical students are expected to function at the level of an intern (sub-Is), which is the level of a PA (not one that has been practicing for 20+ mind you, but a newly minted PA, most certainly).

As a DO student, ARAi, i can most certainly understand the idea of defending ones education. However, even though im in class more than MD students I never claim my education is more than theirs, because there is so much to learn that other time I spend learning something else is time I spend neglecting something else (Theres just no way to learn it all in the time frame alloted).

 

[lapelirroja]

Wow, came back to check on this and this continued to escalate.

I gotta say, I feel better knowing there are PAs on this board that saw through Starpower's bull****

Overall, although I have a bitter taste in my mouth due to a few recent PA experiences, I am still a huge PA backer of education and their role in medicine.

In my practice in the future will be built on MD/DOs & PAs working together

Trust me in that medical students & attendings/residents value you PAs way more than DNPs or any other mid-level provider.

I also ask that this thread be locked.

Appreciate that you back PA education and our role in medicine. I do want to step in and say that I hope the episodes with PAs that have left a bad taste in your mouth are NOT just from the message boards. Message boards aren't REAL LIFE. I think most people will find, or have found, that most PAs don't act like this at all. People can form whatever opinions they want about any members of the healthcare team, but I think it should be based on what happens on the wards/in the clinics, but also keeping in mind that not all people who have the same degree think/act the same; this includes RNs, PAs, NPs, MDs, DOs, etc.

Thanks to everyone who supports PAs. I've never wanted to be anything other than a PA, and have no desire to be an MD. I respect physicians and look forward to working with one when I graduate in May.

 

[FutureDoc4]

Appreciate that you back PA education and our role in medicine. I do want to step in and say that I hope the episodes with PAs that have left a bad taste in your mouth are NOT just from the message boards. Message boards aren't REAL LIFE. I think most people will find, or have found, that most PAs don't act like this at all. People can form whatever opinions they want about any members of the healthcare team, but I think it should be based on what happens on the wards/in the clinics, but also keeping in mind that not all people who have the same degree think/act the same; this includes RNs, PAs, NPs, MDs, DOs, etc.

Thanks to everyone who supports PAs. I've never wanted to be anything other than a PA, and have no desire to be an MD. I respect physicians and look forward to working with one when I graduate in May.

I look forward to working with you too!

 

[Makati2008]

Fair enough. You're obviously alluding to posts I've placed in the past; those are based on what I've seen between the PA and MD programs at my school. It wasn't a fit of arrogance that encouraged my comments.



Interesting you should say that, because those are the only 3 courses PAs here don't take from the M1 curriculum. They get all the other stuff: gross anatomy, physiology, pharmacology, genetics, immunology, microbiology, behavioral sciences, & pathology. As for the M2, it appears PAs are receiving the full system study of medicine the M2s are receiving. Not sure about other schools, but that's how it is here.

Bro. Our classwork is not nearly as intense as the medical school. I would call it summarized versions of what we take in PA school vs med. school. PA school I had the same classes and was at a major Med. school where I went to PA school as well(MD). I once asked the department head how much more anatomy I would need as a PA to get the same level as a med student and she quoted-40% additional. Believe me that 40% is a killer and I had good grades in PA school...in med. school not so hot.....

MS2-We do the organ based approach to medicine as PA's but remember we are taught only a few of the zebras along with the more common presentations. Even in MS1 I am being hit with more Zebras than I can count in the molecular medicine components of the course as we speak. Our training helps but does not equate easy......

EMED previous post would be probably the most logical of all the answers so far. I probably have a lot of typos. I have patho/biochem/gross anat/stats(nothing in PA school compared to this believe me)and a little cell signaling on my final on Monday am os I am pretty tired...

 

[physasst]

there is a difference between hours spent in class and depth of knowledge required. I agree that at SOME places (including my program) 1st yr pa students may spend more time in class/week than md ms1 students do. that doesn't mean they learn the same stuff. we cover PART of ms1(say 25-30%- yes, that low.....look at their ms1 curriculum- we don't do a lot of histology, embryology,biochem, etc) and PART of ms2(say 60-70%%) in 1 yr. they cover all of ms1 and ms2 in 2 years.
for all intents and purposes at a good pa program pa2=ms3.that is why the bridge program gives credit for a full clinical yr. it's the only part of the education that is similar enough to compare straight across.
pa's who go back to medschool typically say ms1 is the hardest thing they have ever done then coast through ms2-4.

Thanks E. This is an interesting thread, I may print this. As E knows, I am a PA, who is finishing my doctoral, and has developed a national reputation as a health policy analyst, and is starting to develop a national research reputation as a medical workforce researcher as well.

I am currently writing an article with a close friend who is a PhD sociologist who is considered an expert in "status", and its implications on societal and communal functions. We are writing an article on physician status, and their perception of status, and how this might impact workforce demands, and health reform. I am writing the reform and workforce portion, and he is writing the status portion. This might fit nicely. Thanks for the dialogue. It is most appreciated.

 

[deltamed]

Fair enough. You're obviously alluding to posts I've placed in the past; those are based on what I've seen between the PA and MD programs at my school. It wasn't a fit of arrogance that encouraged my comments.



Interesting you should say that, because those are the only 3 courses PAs here don't take from the M1 curriculum. They get all the other stuff: gross anatomy, physiology, pharmacology, genetics, immunology, microbiology, behavioral sciences, & pathology. As for the M2, it appears PAs are receiving the full system study of medicine the M2s are receiving. Not sure about other schools, but that's how it is here.

What I've learned over many years attending several institutions (college, post-bac, med school/graduate school, residency) is that the name of a class matters far less than your classmates, because level of detail, breadth and depth covered is tailored to the audience.

For example, I took organic chemistry (1st half) at a top 3 college and (2nd half) at a post-bac institution with a less academic audience. Although the names of the courses are the same, I can tell you the post-bac course was literally a joke comparatively.

Similarly for med school. When I looked over the test questions my PA friend had on her "equivalently named" pathology course, there wasn't a single question I couldn't answer even though it had been a year since I looked at that subject matter.

Moral: don't assume named courses are equivalent unless you are actually taking the course WITH those other people and being curved AGAINST them.

 

[spacefin9]

Pretty simple: If they did the same amount of work, and learned the same amount of information as MD's, then why aren't they just called MD's?

 

[Narnian]

At the level of graduate school, I think that what you learn should be more based on yourself rather than where you go to school, or who you go to school with! Your instructor is good at giving you an overview, and is there to give you clarification based on his/her expereince in those gray area questions, (Which there is a substantial amount of these questions in medicine!) but for the main part it is up to you to gain and retain the rest of the information. Regardless of the "Name" or the level of "equivalency" your class states, I feel you should learn and retain as much as you possibly can.

 

[EMPA]

- after reading these posts I really have to laugh. I am a physician assistant and work in critical care both in the ED and MICU. The role of the PA is to work with a physician. That is how the profession was designed. The bottom line though is that medicine is medicine for both the doc and the PA. Although a physican assistant is not deligated to just seeing urine and ear infections on a daily basis. The knowledge that one obtains is very individualized.

 

[Narnian]

- The knowledge that one obtains is very individualized.

That is the essence of what I was trying to say...