A MD degree is awarded after Oral Surgery residencies

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Yah-E

Yah-E

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Many of you may not know this this, but a MD degree is also awarded after a 6-year residency in Oral & Maxillofacial Surgery (OMS) to dental (DDS/DMD) graduates.

Here's my question to all M-IIIs and M-IVs, have you guys notice any OMS residents rotating with you guys in clinicals. Most of OMS residency programs in the US requires their residents to complete the 3rd and 4th of medical school rotations and take the USMLE I, II, and III.

A lot of the Oral Surgeons are MD, DMD/DDS.

Just wondering if you guys know of any OMS residents getting double degrees?
 
Sure. We've got a handfull of OMFS residents doing their MS3 and MS4 years of med school. When I did my medicine clerkship eons ago, there were at least two OMFS residents.

Not all OMFS programs offer MDs, however.
 
you're right only the 6-year OMS residencies offer the MD degree, the traditional 4-year OMS residencies does not.
 
We have two guys a year who do this, but they also have to take some (majority, I think) of the basic science classes.
 
This is an outrage. Dentists should not be eligible for MD degrees unless they take the same curriculum as everybody else

Dont all MD granting institutions have to be accredited by the AAMC?
 
MacGyver:

All MD granting institution for Oral Surgery in the US is accredited by LCME. When DMD/DDS get accepted to a 6-year OMS-MD residency, it is at an accredited Oral Surgery residency program and an accredited US medical school. For example, Harvard medical school and Mass. General Hospital (oral surgery part) is joint together to award the OMS-MD double degree.

Also about the curriculum misconception, US dental school curriculi is similar to US medical school curriculi the first two years when it comes to Basic Sciences. Heck, a lot of the dental and medical students take their basic sciences together at various Universities where there is both a dental and a medical school. So as for eligibility to earn a MD degree for DMD/DDSs, if many accredited medical school confers, then I guess it's not so "outrageous" then is it?

Universities that offers OMS-MD residencies (to name a few):

University of Alabama at Birmingham
UCLA
USC
UCSF
UConn
University of Florida
Univ. of Miami (FL)
UIC
UKMC
University of Louisville
Louisiana State University
University of Maryland at Baltimore
Massachsetts General Hospital (Harvard Medical)
Univ. of Michigan
Detroit Receiving Hosiptal (Wayne State Medical)
Mayo Clinic (MN)
Univ. of Missouri at KC
Univ. of Nebraska
UMDNJ
SUNY at Buffalo
Columbia Univ
Mount Sinai School of Medicine
NY Medical College at Metropolitan Hospital

This list goes on....as you can see at all these hospitals and medical schools, they all grant the MD degree to dental school graduates who wish to specialize in Oral & Maxillofacial surgery.

Remember though, for OMS-MD double degree guys, they still have to take and pass the USMLE Step I before they can do 3rd year medical school rotations. Also at the end of the 4th year medical school curriculum, USMLE Step II is also required and then Step III later as well.

For a DMD/DDS to do OMS-MD, this is what (s)he has to go through:

Dental Admissions Test (DAT)
National Board Dental Examination Part I (NBDE I) at the end of 2nd year dental school
NBDE II at the end of 4th year dental school
USMLE I (before med. rotations)
USMLE II
USMLE III
licensure boards for dental, medical, and Oral Surgery

A crap load of testings!!
 
There are two OMS students at my school each year. It is a six year program. The first year is an intern year on OMS. They do evaluation of patients and trauma call. The second year they take the exact same classes as the medical students (meanwhile they are still on call during this time). The third year is a mix of specific OMS stuff and medical school courses. Fourth year is a combination of the medical school clerkships and ones especially geared towards OMS. For example they spend more time on anesthesia then medical students. Fifth year is spent entirely assigned to general surgery. They have the same responsibilities as 3rd and 4th year general surgery residents. Sixth year they are chief OMS residents.

It is an incredibly demanding program and the people the pick are very competent and professional. They deserve that MD degree as much as anyone else. There are a few that leave the OMS and go into 'regular' doctoring in some other field, but that is rare. Most just go on to become incredibly well paid oral surgeons.

By the way, the AAMC is not an accrediting organization. It is just an association of medical schools. The LCME is the one that accredits medical schools.
 
Do they get paid like residents would during those years of the 6-year program?
 
Some oral and maxillfacial surgeons have attained and MD and are liscenced in Plastic/reconstructive surgery. I know several so i would not alwasy assume that they went that way. HOwever come to think of it the guys im talking about do not have dds behind name.. so i geuss this is irrelevent. But after 6 years, id think that is a damn long time to be focused in such a specific area of the body, it seems they would be pretty well prepped to be an "m.d"
 
OMS residents, whether you're in a 4-year or 6-year MD integrated programs, you'll get paid as a resident. Pretty well too! I have a guide for all OMS residencies offered in the US, average pay is about $40,000 a year (some more and some less). Somne will pay all 6 years, some will only pay 5 years. Also, some of the MD integrated OMS residency programs will pay for your 2 years of medical school, while some programs will require you to pay the medical school tuition.

It all depends on which residency you end up matching with. Here are some examples:

University of Miami, School of Medicine/Jackson Memorial Hospital:

Openings: 3 residents
Length of Medical School Education: 2 years
Tuition Requirements:
Year 1 - $25,000
Year 2 - $25,000

Tuition for OMS Training: None

Stipend for OMS Training:
Year 1: $35,710
Year 2: $37,332
Year 3: $38,954
Year 4: $40,841
Year 5: $43,044
Year 6: $44,472
Fellowship: $46,349


Columbia-Presbterian Medical Center

Opening: 2
Length of Medical School Education: 2 years
Tuition Requirements:
Year 1: $34,249
Year 2: $34,099

Tuition of OMS Training:
Year 1: None
Year 2: $34,249
Year 3: $34,099

Stipend for OMS Training:
Year 1: $42,261
Year 2: $4,000
Year 3: $4,000
Year 4: $42,261
Year 5: $44,766
Year 6: $48,016
Fellowship: None


Univeristy of Rochester (NY)

Openings: 1
Length of Medical School Education: 2 years
Tuition Requirements: None

Tuition for OMS Training: None

Stipend for OMS Training
Year 1: $37,286
Year 2: $38,683
Year 3: $40,831
Year 4: $42,267
Year 5: $43,705
Year 6: $43,140
Fellowship: None

As you can see, all OMS residency programs varies in pay.
 
Originally posted by Ramoray
Some oral and maxillfacial surgeons have attained and MD and are liscenced in Plastic/reconstructive surgery. I know several so i would not alwasy assume that they went that way. HOwever come to think of it the guys im talking about do not have dds behind name.. so i geuss this is irrelevent. But after 6 years, id think that is a damn long time to be focused in such a specific area of the body, it seems they would be pretty well prepped to be an "m.d"
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Actually, all oral surgeons, MD or not, are allowed to perform facial and cosmetic surgeries. However, it is becoming increasingly more difficult (hospital space, insurance, patient selectivity, reimbursement, etc) for non-MDs to perform these procedures despite their training and therefore opt for the MD (which is deserved but does not further improve their abilities to perform facial surgeries).
 
While OMFS are fully trained to perform facial cosmetic surgery. They see many many facial reconstructive cases in their residencies. If they can put a face back together they can do simple Rhinoplasty, etc. However, the problems comes from referral and marketing problems. People on the hunt for a "nose job" are not going to seek out an OMFS (most likely). Hence, they will have to build an internal practice, by suggesting cosmetic procedures to already established or referred patients. M.D. or no !!!!! Other physicians are going to refer their cosmetics to Plastics, even ENT before OMFS. Yet, there are those few OMFS who have found a niche and are able to do quite well in facial plastics, but if that is your kinda thing you should just do a plastics residency. No matter what people say about OMFS, M.D. or not, most make their bread and butter from extracting wizzies....Plain and simple.
 
So you're saying that dental students take the same courses as med students the first 2 years, and also do 2 full years of medical rotations in ob/gyn, pediatrics, emergency med, etc?

Tell me what is DIFFERENT between med school and dent school, because from what you've said it seems exactly the same to me.

At any rate, it seems weird to award an MD degree to a dentist, the reason being that MD is really a very generic type of degree. We dont give MDs in radiology, or an MD in emergency medicine, we just give out MDs.

They should call this degree that the dentists get something other than MD, because otherwise that implies that they are just as qualified to treat gastrointestinal problems as they are to treat tooth problems.

Dentists who are oral/maxillofacial surgeons should have something called a DOMS (doctor of oral maxillofacial surgery) or something like that, not the generic MD degree that implies that such a dentist has some basic expertise in all areas of medicine.

Do dentists do gross anatomy on the whole body? Or do they just do the section on the head/skull?
 
MacGyver:

as matter of fact, dental students do know Gross Anatomy...yes the whole body....remember what I said, dental and medical students take the same basic science courses together in a lot of the schools!

First two years of dental and medical schools are extremely similar, although the 3rd and 4th of years of medical school is different from dental school, that is why OMS residents do 3rd and 4th year medical school education to obtain the MD degree.

I see that this is a tough concept for you to swallow, but that is exactly why I started this thread so some of your pre-allopathics and/or current MD students know that there are other ways for health professional students to obtain and earn a "Medical Doctor" degree out there.

We, dental students, are just as competent to learn and know what you "medical students" know. Funny enough, do you guys know as much as we know about the oral cavity, which can lead and/or correlate to systemic diseases?

Something to think about.
 
MacGyver, Are you going to be an M.D. just so you so can say look at me, I'm a doctor? I knew several students like that in my undergrad and it's scares the tar out of me that so many of them actually got into medical school. (Heaven forbid one of these I-am-God-type physicians ever works on me) Doctors are not superior to every other human being on earth. While it is true that medicine is a very noble profession populated mostly by top-notch people, there are some doctors who (as in all professions) are nasty, horrible money-grubbing people and some who are just downright stupid. My wife is a lowly nurse who has saved the butts of more than a few I-am-God M.D.'s by catching stupid mistakes before orders go through. Please remember that the awarding of an M.D. does not also grant infallibility.

Anyhow, Yah-E's right. At many schools, the dental students take almost every class with the first and second year medical students - and then, after the medical students go home, the dental students stay at school to do their dental / clinical courses.
The important thing is that the DDS/MD's have to complete the last two years of the MD program which is vastly different from the last two years of dental school. 🙂
 
P.S. I am not ripping on M.D.s. I'm not sure that I personally would have the devotion or stamina to be a physician. I am very grateful that there are so many intelligent, caring people out there willing to devote their lives to helping others.
 
Originally posted by Yah-E
Many of you may not know this this, but a MD degree is also awarded after a 6-year residency in Oral & Maxillofacial Surgery (OMS) to dental (DDS/DMD) graduates.
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that's very interesting to know, but it sounds like lots of hard work *shudder*
 
The Combined DDS/MD Oral Maxillofacial Surgery program is very cool indeed - After this training, one can enter a traditional allopathic Plastic Surgery Fellowship for the more advanced reconstructions (See this web site):

http://www.plasticsurgery.org/faq/credenti.htm

Had I gone to Dental school vs Medical school, I would have been very interested in this pathway. Sounds like an excellent opportunity to get into some pretty cool facial reconstructions.

Airborne
 
some of you guys are reading too much into my posts.

Of course dentists are more adept at dealing with craniofacial issues, I never said that docs were superior.

What I dont understand is why dentists feel the need to learn about gastrointestinal disorders when it is a fact that they will never, ever be treating those kind of patients.

Some of you seem to be implying that a dentist can do everything that a doctor can do, on every part of the body, not just teeth/skull/facial stuff. This is what I am disputing.
 
MacGyver,

I was just accepted to an MD/OMS 6 year residency on 1.27.03, our match day.

I have a 3.99 undergrad GPA, 4.00 Dental School GPA, have over 2000 hours of volunteer experience (in Hospital with MDs and DDSs) and scored in the 99% on my national board exams.

I listed this info not to brag, but to display to you what it takes to get into these residencies. Most accepted applicants are top 5 of their class.

I chose dental school over medical school with the full intention of doing oral and maxillofacial surgery. I have chosen a 6 year MD/OMS residency, as I want to learn more of what dental school does not teach us; how to treat an entire patient. I want to take the ob/gyn rotation to better understand the dynamics of my preganant patients, and the cardiology rotation for my patients with past MI, HTN, or CHF. I am not getting the MD for the sake of having it, but to better treat my patients. And yes, medical school trains a doctor to better manage the entire patient, then dental school does, as dental school is VERY, VERY specialized.

Your statements about giving an MD for gastro, ob/gyn, or any other specialty are very shortsighted, as is the statement at the bottom of your posts. Getting an MD does not imply anyone is an expert of the whole body and can treat any aspect of patient care. It simple implies that one has an overall understanding of the human body and is ready to move on to their respective area of concentrated learning; residency!

For the OMS residents, this area is the head and neck. They get the additional training in medical school that is needed to manage their patients appropriately, not to have a GOD complex.

And think of this....an OMS resident spends 4 years at dental school working with their hands in measurments of 1mm, then go into a surgical residency where they are required to be on surgical service for 32-36 months. So that is 7 years of hand skills minimum, which in my opinion qualifies them fairly well to perform their duties.

Please try and view OMS as specialty that can help a certain segment of the patient population instead of looking at them in the way you have portrayed hear. And as far as dentists go, next time you need some dental work, just do it yourself as you will also be a doctor and should be competent.

Also, the idea od DOMS is pretty funny as a DDS is already a doctor with the same prescription rights as you will have. And yes, the DEA license is the same as well.
 
Hey MacGyver,

I like your style, you have spunk! This is getting to be very interesting.

What year are going to graduate med school?

Ok....so why then does say a neurologist need to know about gastointestinal disorders??

Now we were talking about OMS guys at first, and believe me they need to know the whole patient, since they have to do a complete H&P before admits to the hospital.

But how about say just a general dentist...why would they need to know such things???? Well, what if they were going to give say nitrous to a patient with a small bowel obstruction, medications to a patient with say a previuosly resected ileum. Do you think they might need to know a little bit about the disease process of these patients?

Please, please, please just broaden your scope and try to realize that what is behind your name in the end is not as important as the knowledge you have attained while earning that degree.

One more thing....do you think a gas passer should know about disease processes????? Well, a lot of GENERAL dentists are licensed in IV sedation...so shouldn't they know also???
 
MacGyver,

I dont understand why you think this is such an outrage. I am interested in pursuing a OMFS/MD residency after dental school and will add my two cents. First of all these programs involve 2-3 yrs of Med School and passing all 3 steps of the USMLE, therefore demonstrating the exact same competence as a traditional Med student. Also 1-2 yrs of this residency is general surgery training. You state that it is an outrage for someone as specialized as a dentist to learn this med stuff. I have two problems with this. The first concerns the nature and scope of OMS. It is actually very simmilar in training to Otolarangology. OMFS does radical neck surgeries, corrective jaw surgery, pathology of the entire maxillofacial region, supraclavicular trauma surgery, and dentoalveolar surgery. While the bread and butter of this specialty is the dentoalveolar surgery (mostly 3rd molars and such) OMS surgeons truly are surgeons of the entire maxillofacial region. Secondly all dentists, regardless whether they are specialized or not need to know alot of the med stuff. Many diseases manifest in the oral cavity, 1 big one being HIV, and while the medical knowledge of physician is not nescessary here, recognizing red flags is crucial. Also in having the same DEA rights as a physician, adentist must know a great deal about drug interactions outside of pain killers and antiobiotics. Trust me, once you do your surgery rotations and seewhat OMS does, you will gain respect for this specialty and understand why the medical training is important
 
I am curious about this program because apparently a family friend of mine is going into it after graduating from dental school this May.

I just cannot understand how you can be on call as an oral surgery resident while completing 3rd AND 4th years of med school. that's not possible unless they short-circuit your MD education. When I was on medicine, I alternated between short and long calls every two days, and in total, I got 3 days of break in the whole rotation to stay home and do my laundry. There was no way I could do anything else OTHER THAN internal medicine. This is not about being bright or not. This is about the fact that there are only 24 hours per day 🙂

That residency does not sound bad to me! How many years do regular MD needs to go through before becoming an oral maxillary surgeon? Do they need to go through general surgery first?

I mean, general sugery takes 5-7 years to complete for an MD. 6 years for going through MD + oral surgery residency is not a bad deal! And you will need a well-constructed argument to convince me that those clinical years exactly duplicated the 3rd and 4th years of med school

😕

Also, how can one be an intern on oral maxillary surgery floor right out of dental school? do they teach diabetes, psychiatric disorders, antidiuretics, etc. in dental school? I guess they do teach them in first 2 years but do you get exposed to them in your last 2 years of dental school? Maybe you do. I am just curious.

Thanks!
 
The Wonderer,

I am no expert, but have looked alot into these residencies. I believe call is taiolred towards break time in med school (no holidays etc). Could be wrong though. Also, although the core medical clerkships (IM, OB-Gyn, G-Surg etc.) are the same in MD and OMS MD curricula, some 4th yr electives in OMS MD are tailored to Oral surgery, ie more anesthesia, and surgical type rotations. What you med students may not realize is that even the non MD oral surgeons (4 yr program) rotate through all the medical clerkships and do the same core yr in surgery as any other surgeon. Last but not least, it is very rare for a MD to enter an OMS residency, although it does happen. The dental school stuff, especially occlusion and anatomy is important for OMS, therefore an MD coming into an OMS residency would have to be brought up to speed on this stuff.
 
Is it possible to start out in med school and move to into OMS? I tried searching the forums but so far have not come up with anything.

Thanks,
Zedpol

P.S. if it is possible how hard is it to do?
 
Is there a symmetrical program that admits MD graduates in oral surgery? I guess most of the ones interested in this sort of field probably end up going ENT or plastics...just curious though if it happens.
 
oh on top of that question...could the MD not have to do the year 3/4 dental school and just start on oral surgery to make it a 4 year program?
 
Originally posted by ewsmith1
MacGyver,

I was just accepted to an MD/OMS 6 year residency on 1.27.03, our match day.

I have a 3.99 undergrad GPA, 4.00 Dental School GPA, have over 2000 hours of volunteer experience (in Hospital with MDs and DDSs) and scored in the 99% on my national board exams.
Click to expand...

With marks like that, you might even have been able to get into med school! 😛
 
if you can pass steps 1, 2, and 3 and complete the clerkships, then it sounds like a well deserved m.d. to me. actually it sounds really freakin hard.
 
Graduates of medical school CAN enter oral and maxillofacial surgery residencies. Here's how it works:

Year 1: oral maxillofacial surgery
Year 2: dental school year 3
Year 3: dental school year 4
Year 4: general surgery
Year 5: oral maxillofacial surgery
Year 6: oral maxillofacial surgery

I know Baylor, Louisville, and Univ. Alabama all accept MD's into this curriculum. There are several others as well. All are 6 years. There are no 4 year OMS residencies for MD's.
 
Originally posted by River13
Graduates of medical school CAN enter oral and maxillofacial surgery residencies. Here's how it works:
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But why on earth would they?
 
Originally posted by River13
Graduates of medical school CAN enter oral and maxillofacial surgery residencies. Here's how it works:

Year 1: oral maxillofacial surgery
Year 2: dental school year 3
Year 3: dental school year 4
Year 4: general surgery
Year 5: oral maxillofacial surgery
Year 6: oral maxillofacial surgery

I know Baylor, Louisville, and Univ. Alabama all accept MD's into this curriculum. There are several others as well. All are 6 years. There are no 4 year OMS residencies for MD's.
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This isn't to rip on MDs (wow, what a change to be reversing the disclaimer), but how could med students treat patients without any of the preclinical training? Or do they just do the didactic classwork, since it's predetermined that they'll be in the OMS residency?
 
well, this would apply to the dental students as well for missing medical pre-clinical training.
 
Originally posted by zedpol
Is it possible to start out in med school and move to into OMS? I tried searching the forums but so far have not come up with anything.

Thanks,
Zedpol

P.S. if it is possible how hard is it to do?
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If you are truly interested in this, I suggest you do a rotation at U-Penn. They have OMFS spots geared especially to Medical Students. It is a great profession.

But why on earth would they?
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Its a pretty good life. Compensation is great. YOu can go to a suburban community, limit your practice to just OS (third molar extractions a few closed reductions) and still make a killing without being on call.
Secondly, you will be affiliated/sponsored by ADA as opposed to AMA. The ADA is a very agressive and well coordinated organization. I think they have just learnt and not repeated the mistakes of AMA. Their constituents are very well protected and enjoy more freedom (comparitively) in their professional lives.
 
do you have any links to these? i did a provisional look on upenn and came up with just OMFS/MD programs for dental graduates.
 
in reference to your ADA vs. AMA bit. theres alot more money to be made sueing doctors than sueing dentists. i'm not saying there aren't adverse outcomes with dentistry...but as an aggregrate financial risk......dentistry is relatively benign in comparison in terms of litigation and legal policy.
 
Originally posted by nuclearrabbit77
in reference to your ADA vs. AMA bit. theres alot more money to be made sueing doctors than sueing dentists. i'm not saying there aren't adverse outcomes with dentistry...but as an aggregrate financial risk......dentistry is relatively benign in comparison in terms of litigation and legal policy.
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True upto a certain extent nuclear, but you'll be surprised coz it is not as low as one would expect. YOu should see the amount of attempted litigation against endodontists for root canals and some gendents and oral surgeons for failed implants. It basically comes down to the trial lawyers "creativity" in finding new markets with supposedly "deep pockets" but in general my physician cousins (3 of them who are all married to dentists) tell me how well the ADA is organized) especially when it comes to keeping insurance companies at bay. Of course you have to consider:
1. Dentists are a smaller group.
2. They know what happened to physicians after managed care set in (so they have had the advantage of playing monday morning q-back)
3. Have always been politically active.
 
Originally posted by nuclearrabbit77
do you have any links to these? i did a provisional look on upenn and came up with just OMFS/MD programs for dental graduates.
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I think they recently changed that page. Call them anyways and find out, I am sure that they were willing to take on med students up until last year.

the contact is: Mrs. Connie Evanko, Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery, 5 White Building, 3400 Spruce Street, Philadelphia, PA 19104. 215-662-6176
 
Originally posted by AMMD
Its a pretty good life. Compensation is great. YOu can go to a suburban community, limit your practice to just OS (third molar extractions a few closed reductions) and still make a killing without being on call.
Secondly, you will be affiliated/sponsored by ADA as opposed to AMA. The ADA is a very agressive and well coordinated organization. I think they have just learnt and not repeated the mistakes of AMA. Their constituents are very well protected and enjoy more freedom (comparitively) in their professional lives.
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I meant more that most interested MD types would choose ENT or plastics over a 6 year OMF program surely.
 
Originally posted by nuclearrabbit77
well, this would apply to the dental students as well for missing medical pre-clinical training.
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Right, except (I'm not going to start a pissing match over this) the involvement dental students have with their patients during D3 and D4 years is much more intimate than med students doing wards. The whole reason we don't have to do residency in the first place is because we spend those two years treating patients.
 
aphis,

the scope of clinical experiences that a dental student is supposed to experience is far less than a med student.

this is an apples and oranges comparison. Of course dentists dont need to do a residency--its not because they are somehow trained a lot better than doctors, its because the scope of things they are supposed to be able to take care of is much narrower than it is for med students.
 
Originally posted by MacGyver
aphis,

the scope of clinical experiences that a dental student is supposed to experience is far less than a med student.

this is an apples and oranges comparison. Of course dentists dont need to do a residency--its not because they are somehow trained a lot better than doctors, its because the scope of things they are supposed to be able to take care of is much narrower than it is for med students.
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You've made this, and your disdain for anything other than the extremely antiquated "traditional" establishment and hierarchy, abundantly clear in just about every single one of your previous posts. If being stereotyped offends you, you might consider doing something to invalidate the stereotype from time to time.

Unsurprisingly, you also failed to address the question I asked, so I'll repeat. Regardless of how pedestrian you consider dental work to be, med students receive zero training in any sort of the dental procedures dental students spend two solid years performing daily. Are MD->DDS OMFS candidates excused, then, from the clinical portions of the D3 and D4 years, or are they expected to develop clinical dental proficiency in addition to their classroom studies?
 
Originally posted by aphistis
Right, except (I'm not going to start a pissing match over this) the involvement dental students have with their patients during D3 and D4 years is much more intimate than med students doing wards. The whole reason we don't have to do residency in the first place is because we spend those two years treating patients.
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pissing match has begun.

there was an assertion that medical student will have missed pre-clinical training in first and second years.

my reply was that dental students would miss out on medical preclinical training in the first and second years as well.

now you make this generalized statement that "D3 and D4 years is much more intimate than med students doing wards"?

This is absurd. And even if it was more intimate, since when did intimacy substitute for clinical training?

The reason you don't do post-graduate training is because you have focused on the mouth. We have to be responsible for much more than that. It's not because you have had more intimacy or have had more patient exposure. And if a dentist wants do do anything more complicated, they have to receive post-graduate training...because the "intimacy" they acquired wasn't sufficient to give them the clinical training they need.
 
Originally posted by nuclearrabbit77
pissing match has begun.

there was an assertion that medical student will have missed pre-clinical training in first and second years.

my reply was that dental students would miss out on medical preclinical training in the first and second years as well.

now you make this generalized statement that "D3 and D4 years is much more intimate than med students doing wards"?

This is absurd. And even if it was more intimate, since when did intimacy substitute for clinical training?

The reason you don't do post-graduate training is because you have focused on the mouth. We have to be responsible for much more than that. It's not because you have had more intimacy or have had more patient exposure. And if a dentist wants do do anything more complicated, they have to receive post-graduate training...because the "intimacy" they acquired wasn't sufficient to give them the clinical training they need.
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Suit yourself. You're apparently laboring under the misimpression that we don't really do much beyond sit around sipping daquiris during our upperclass years. Then again, you seem to think that's most of what dentists do in general. Be my guest.

I suppose I should've known this was the wrong forum to visit for an informed cross-disciplinary opinion. I guess I'll look elsewhere.
 
Originally posted by aphistis
Suit yourself. You're apparently laboring under the misimpression that we don't really do much beyond sit around sipping daquiris during our upperclass years. Then again, you seem to think that's most of what dentists do in general. Be my guest.

I suppose I should've known this was the wrong forum to visit for an informed cross-disciplinary opinion. I guess I'll look elsewhere.
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Where do you come up with this stuff? how do you substantiate any of your inferences of how i feel about dentistry? I think you are transposing other peoples replies as my own. I'm not the one who started making generalizations about the "intimacy" or quality of clinical training....you are.
 
out of curiosity, is there an OMS/DO program?
 
I dont have a prob with the preclin requirements, because honestly, I barely remember or will remember anything from anatomy or histology or biochem unless I use it daily in my practice.

The prob I have with this program is that as far as I know, the admission to dental school is less competitive in general than medical school. Take UPenn, Columbia, or UCLA for example. It is so difficult to get into those medical institutions that I've seen with rarity, yet dental schools are much more readily achievable. And dont give me stats because gpa doesnt tell the story (Harvard med admiss gpa is ~3.7, but so is ucdavis, but Harvard is obviously much harder to gain admissions because of other factors). The OMS residency is not highly competitive either, as perio and ortho are more known to be more competitive. The fact of the matter is, I feel this is a "backdoor" for ppl who want an MD but cannot get into medical school. I cant see a huge differnce in 2 yrs of training to go from DDS OMS to MD OMS, except for ppl just to obtain the MD. I bet if MDs can take just 2 extra yrs and get an extra DDS, some dental ppl would start flippin out the same saying it's quite "unfair."
 
I'm an MD student at penn, and I can honestly say that my OMS classmates are smarter and more qualified than the majority of my classmates. Just because a student has a dental degree does not mean that they could not get into medical school- these guys would be allstars at any school in the country.
 
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