A picture is worth a thousand words

[Status Sciaticus]

In the last 300 years or so, none of those places have contributed anything major to the world. I am not talking about thousands of years ago. I do realize that Western civilization stands on the shoulders of the ancients, but I could live without the current culture from any of those areas and not miss it. But, hey, that's just my taste.

So the only places that have contributed anything major to the world in the last 300 years are Western European countries... does this include Australia or New Zealand? How about Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Dubai, Russia? Those places seem like they could be considered "Western".

Reason I ask is because, maybe I'm wrong or reading into it too much, but your statement feels like you may think only Anglo-Saxon white people have contributed to modern civilization and everyone else is really somewhat inferior. You aren't saying that directly but I perceive your statement to imply it. Maybe you have more in common with the Donald or some of his supporters than you think.

Sounds like it has racist implications/undertones. Lets not forget that a lot of discoveries and advances in many scientific fields are not done by Western Europeans or Anglo-Saxon americans, but by imported talent whether they be Indian, Chinese, or middle-eastern docs, scientists, engineers, etc..

So while these achievements are not being done physically in those countries, it is being done by people from those countries.

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[VA Hopeful Dr]

By your logic wouldn’t America be the light of modern civilization?

Flight, electricity, telephone, computers, internet, anesthesia come to mind quickly.

When I think of Europe mostly wars come up.

The Enlightenment and the Industrial Revolution come to mind with Europe for me...

 

[urge]

The Enlightenment and the Industrial Revolution come to mind with Europe for me...

Good points.

Honestly I think this is a silly subject and that’s why I didn’t address it when FFP and I were going at it.

I will remove myself from this discussion.

 

[deleted171991]

Sounds like it has racist implications/undertones. Lets not forget that a lot of discoveries and advances in many scientific fields are not done by Western Europeans or Anglo-Saxon americans, but by imported talent whether they be Indian, Chinese, or middle-eastern docs, scientists, engineers, etc..

So while these achievements are not being done physically in those countries, it is being done by people from those countries.

And your post has PC undertones, because that's the current fashion. Anything that may suggest that the white man has achieved more historically in something is racist, even if true. I don't believe that race has anything to do with human achievement, but I think culture, traditions and religions have A LOT. It is by chance that the humans contributing the most to our CURRENT civilization are white in this Universe, and that even the miracle called America was started by Europeans. In another one, it may be blue, green or whatever other color or race. Even among whites, there are tons of cultural and religious differences, and again that's why certain countries are more successful than others even in Western Europe. And again, things may be different in another 300 years or so.

There is a reason why all those people flourish in America (or Western Europe), but not in their home countries. And that's the local culture. You can ignore it's Western-type underpinnings all you want. And no, I am not from Western Europe either, just a fan. I am also an admirer of miracle states like Singapore, for example, or South Korea, although I haven't been exposed to their cultures. But it takes a special culture to go from nothing to something meaningful so fast.

 

[Hamhock]

VA Hopeful first mentioned the distinction that I sense is being searched for in this "argument".

There are clearly cultures and people -- of all colors and places of birth -- that embrace and expand the ideals of the Enlightenment; and there are those who reject these ideals in favor of tribalism (nationalism), supernaturalism, inanate intra-species superiority, and faith.

I suspect the disagreements above will dissipate when the distinction is made this way.

Neither 'Western European culture' nor 'Western European imperialism' are needed to discuss human progress.

HH

 

[deleted171991]

VA Hopeful first mentioned the distinction that I sense is being searched for in this "argument".

There are clearly cultures and people -- of all colors and places of birth -- that embrace and expand the ideals of the Enlightenment; and there are those who reject these ideals in favor of tribalism (nationalism), supernaturalism, inanate intra-species superiority, and faith.

I suspect the disagreements above will dissipate when the distinction is made this way.

Neither 'Western European culture' nor 'Western European imperialism' are needed to discuss human progress.

HH

Again, that's all very PC, but this is like saying there are talented programmers in every country, so there is nothing special about Silicon Valley. Or that many great American programmers are immigrants. But there is a reason they became great in America, and not their home countries. And that's the local culture. And most of that came from Europe, like it or not.

Of course, not only from Europe, and less and less from Europe. But the foundations are European, and I personally love them. Please go visit Britain (or another Western European country), and try not to feel proud that this country was founded by British colonists and shares a part of their culture. Or go visit Italy, or Germany, or Ireland, or the Netherlands, to exemplify other big European American ethnic groups.

 

[pgg]

Sounds like it has racist implications/undertones. Lets not forget that a lot of discoveries and advances in many scientific fields are not done by Western Europeans or Anglo-Saxon americans, but by imported talent whether they be Indian, Chinese, or middle-eastern docs, scientists, engineers, etc..

So while these achievements are not being done physically in those countries, it is being done by people from those countries.

Sort of makes you wonder why so many people from those countries leave and come here to accomplish great things, if the civilization they're leaving behind is on equal footing with western civiliztion and secular democracy.

 

[Status Sciaticus]

Sort of makes you wonder why so many people from those countries leave and come here to accomplish great things, if the civilization they're leaving behind is on equal footing with western civiliztion and secular democracy.

Probably to escape the rampant corruption, poverty, the strong dollar, and lack of access to education and food come to mind. I am not saying that those countries by virtue of geography are doing great things, but as FFP pointed out, its the local culture of the country, and my understanding is that the people who come here bring their culture with them, and not suddenly adopt 'Americanized' culture, as it were.

Either way, I dont believe that FFP is racist. It may just be a generational paradigm shift on how we view things.

 

[doctalaughs]

Agree 100% with FFP. Culture of a group, country or race determines SO much about their success and contributions in this world, and there is nothing racist about that. There is no superior skin color— but there are clearly superior cultural values that have developed certain groups (notice I did NOT say individuals- GROUPS as an “average”).

These superior traits are 1. value placement on education (for both men and women) 2. emphasis on family units (encouraging stable families) and 3. some sort of code of morals- doesnt have to necessarily be religious.

It’s obvious these traits lead to higher achievement, less violence and more stable societies but for some “political correctness” reason it’s taboo to point this out. By the way, unfortunately America is starting to decline in all 3 of these areas, which is why our achievements in the next 100 years will be a pale shadow to ours in the last 100.

 

[vector2]

I feel like A People's History of the United States and Guns, Germs, and Steel should be mandatory reading for this thread, especially for those who think there's some innate or inherent cultural superiority that caused the industrial revolution to happen in Europe rather than a discrete set of (oftentimes fortuitous) historical events spanning a millennium which laid the foundations.

For those who don't think imperialism had effects on the current 3rd/2nd world, consider for a moment that at the beginning of the 18th century, India alone accounted for 23% of global GDP and poverty was virtually unknown. The decade the British left, GDP accounted for 3% globally and the poverty level reached 90%. You can't cause that kind of economic devastation and then expect a culture or people to have magically bootstrapped themselves up into Western European standards overnight.

 

[Drangue]

I should have said "Winter is coming". Then it would have been more clear what I meant (at least to Game of Thrones watchers).

If everything was done with GoT analogies and references then life would be so much better.

 

[Engin]

In the last 300 years or so, none of those places have contributed anything major to the world. I am not talking about thousands of years ago. I do realize that Western civilization stands on the shoulders of the ancients, but I could live without the current culture from any of those areas and not miss it. But, hey, that's just my taste.

Graph is not loading but worth a look:
File:1 AD to 2003 AD Historical Trends in global distribution of GDP China India Western Europe USA Middle East.png - Wikimedia Commons

Colonialism caused the rise of western Europe and fueled their industrial revolution. You can praise their achievements but also respect their atrocities of enslaving the current developing economies which was unprecedented. The 21st century is showing the rise of China and India once again. As countries gain in riches, they will produce more great thinkers and technologies. Maddison Project Database 2018 | Releases | Maddison Historical Statistics | Historical Development | Rijksuniversiteit Groningen

 

[deleted171991]

Many Arab countries are awash in petrodollars. I wouldn't say they generate either more thinkers or technologies.

Same goes for countries that sit on other mineral riches. Money doesn't change culture and traditions. People underestimate the value of the protestant work ethic and morals in the Western success story. Korea and Singapore are such success stories because of the local culture, not the money. @doctalaughs is right.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Probably to escape the rampant corruption, poverty, the strong dollar, and lack of access to education and food come to mind. I am not saying that those countries by virtue of geography are doing great things, but as FFP pointed out, its the local culture of the country, and my understanding is that the people who come here bring their culture with them, and not suddenly adopt 'Americanized' culture, as it were.

Either way, I dont believe that FFP is racist. It may just be a generational paradigm shift on how we view things.

Lots of people bring their culture with them, that's true. But the things that have traditionally made America what it is are usually embraced - hard work generally speaking leading to a better life being the main one. I mean just in this forum alone, how many people came from very little and are now physicians (and for all you anesthesia folks, physicians that earn more than most of the rest of us)?

My great-grandparents immigrated from Poland in 1917 to avoid being drafted in WW1. They both had menial type jobs - floor installer/repair and seamstress. But they worked hard, saved, instilled a good work ethic in their kids. As a result their 2 sons were a dentist and an orthodontist. My grandmother was an optometrist.

 

[Wiscoblue]

Versus before:

A Single Photo Captured President Trump's Approach to the G7 Summit

Reminds me of the 1930s, big time. War is coming.

Really? You’re that old?




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[deleted171991]

Really? You’re that old?

Wait till I tell about the memories of my friend Herodotus...