A question for Upper Year Canadians in Ireland

[Jocks]

Howdy Folks,

So I've got a question, I've been told that most Canadians seek the J-1 rather than a H1-b visa while doing a residency in the states. So exactly what do you do during your 2 years back in Canada after residency, and is there anyway around it? It seems to me a very inconveniant stipulation in the visa rules and that going hardcore for the h1-b would be worth the effort...any thoughts?

Cheers,
Jocks

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[Arb]

From what I read, most Irish grads and Caribbean grads (unless you started in May or January) take an extra year after graduation to take Step 3. Even then, it's not "choosing" the H1-b visa because for some, they just can't get it. It is more of a work visa than a study visa so it's expensive (residency program has to pay for it I believe). Also, I *THINK* the directors have to show that American doctors are not losing the residency position to a foreigner. Not sure on this point.

There is a possibility for a J1 waiver to stay in the country but those are even harder to get. Getting married to an American during residency will not keep you in the country once your residency is over. You'll have to get your permanent residency before the start of your intern year.

 

[Jammer]

From what I read, most Irish grads and Caribbean grads (unless you started in May or January) take an extra year after graduation to take Step 3. Even then, it's not "choosing" the H1-b visa because for some, they just can't get it. It is more of a work visa than a study visa so it's expensive (residency program has to pay for it I believe). Also, I *THINK* the directors have to show that American doctors are not losing the residency position to a foreigner. Not sure on this point.

There is a possibility for a J1 waiver to stay in the country but those are even harder to get. Getting married to an American during residency will not keep you in the country once your residency is over. You'll have to get your permanent residency before the start of your intern year.

You need to do more research (i.e., talk to Canadians and Americans in final med or recently graduated).

Most North Americans in the position to match in Canada or the US, after final med, take the opportunity and run. Very, very few chose to stay in Ireland for an intern year if they have the possibility to match. The majority of North Americans that stay for an intern year do so because they are not in a position to match in North America at the end of final med due to not completing the required licensing exams in time, failing the licensing exams, not matching, not passing final med, etc. That is the truth. In my class at RCSI, the H1B visa was merely a passing thought for Canadians; every Canadian went on a J1 to the US. The window of opportunity to match in the US (at a good residency program) is very small and easily missed.

...then again, if you want to end up doing your PM&R residency in rural Wyoming, have fun...

 

[Arb]

Those that shared their experiences with me (thanks to those who were nice enough to answer PMs and emails) did have to take an extra year. You're right, a few did have to pass the exams but some did not. Few stayed in Ireland. Incidently, the Caribbean grads that I talked to all passed their exams/courses on their first try...
The common trend was that those who did take extra time went for the H1b so that's why I said from my experience. But from everything I read, you can get your Step 3 done before the July start date so the fear of a late start for residency directors *shouldn't* be too much of an issue . Timing is tight though.

Some return to Canada for an fellowship but I'm not sure if Canadian fellowships are recognized in the US. I talked to someone who is on a J1 (Carib. grad matched into ophthalmology) and will return to Toronto for a fellowship to fill in those 2 years. Does anyone know?

 

[Arb]

Man, so many lab questions today. Had to edit that 5 times due to the distraction lol. Back to making that presentation for Denver.

 

[leorl]

Just a rather unrelated thought - Jammer mentioned that most north americans try to match and run. I think this is either changing, or might not be the situation now. At least in my own class and in the couple ahead of me. In fairness, several of the NA's don't complete the steps in time, and I'm not sure why that is. But there seems to be an increasing number of those of us who have planned to complete in time to stay anyway. Possibly because we want the option of practicing in the EU later (through being licensed after completing an intern year), to earn a decent amount of money and save that money before returning to the US (which you can get tax back from) because you won't ever earn that kind of money as an intern in the US, and because it's relatively free in the *6* weeks holiday that you get (even if it's not 6 weeks, it's the most holiday you'll ever get in your lifetime) which you can use to get advanced certificates (ie. ACLS) or to do interviews. Might not be the general feeling in all Irish schools, but I have a feeling that these reasons for staying are on the rise.

 

[Gunny]

...to earn a decent amount of money and save that money before returning to the US (which you can get tax back from) because you won't ever earn that kind of money as an intern in the US, ...

That's interesting, especially for one considering trying to enter the US Residency Match as an Irish IMG! Do interns in Ireland really earn that much more than those from the US/Canada?

 

[leorl]

The basic wage I think is fairly decent. I'll try to find exact figures. But it's the overtime that's the big thing. Even with the european time directive, which I'm not quite sure has completely gone into effect yet at least in some rotations, you can earn a lot in overtime pay. And even if it's not a lot more, there's at least more vacation time that you can use to regroup and prepare for going to the US. Not to mention that you can get 4 more letters of recommendation for the US application.

 

[john182]

That's interesting, especially for one considering trying to enter the US Residency Match as an Irish IMG! Do interns in Ireland really earn that much more than those from the US/Canada?

Roughly €60k in the intern year, with overtime. Typically maybe 70-80 hrs/week, depending on speciality.

Rates are at http://www.imo.ie, go to the NCHD section (Non-Consultant Hospital Doctor).

The flip side is that it's much harder to get a consultant level post after training, which is also much longer. Quite a number of people might stay for a year or two after graduation but then start to plan to leave. Part of the high salaries is to encourage people to stay, IMHO, and also as a doctor you get lots of special treatment in mortgages, etc., . The past consultant generation saw a lot of people leave (if not most really) to the US and UK.

 

[leorl]

Yeah, I've heard of people busting balls with the moonlighting and earning up to 80k! Part of the new education changes you've heard of in recent threads is to get more Irish involved in medicine who will stay in Ireland. Not like us who will try to stay a year or two to take their money and then leave . And I think if you work in this country less than 2 years, you're eligible to get some tax back. But even still, many Irish go to the US because of faster speed to reach consultancy level. High turnover and brain drain is something that they'll hope to correct.

 

[sugababe81]

Just a rather unrelated thought - Jammer mentioned that most north americans try to match and run. I think this is either changing, or might not be the situation now. At least in my own class and in the couple ahead of me. In fairness, several of the NA's don't complete the steps in time, and I'm not sure why that is. But there seems to be an increasing number of those of us who have planned to complete in time to stay anyway. Possibly because we want the option of practicing in the EU later (through being licensed after completing an intern year), to earn a decent amount of money and save that money before returning to the US (which you can get tax back from) because you won't ever earn that kind of money as an intern in the US, and because it's relatively free in the *6* weeks holiday that you get (even if it's not 6 weeks, it's the most holiday you'll ever get in your lifetime) which you can use to get advanced certificates (ie. ACLS) or to do interviews. Might not be the general feeling in all Irish schools, but I have a feeling that these reasons for staying are on the rise.

You can complete your internship in the US and receive Irish Medical Council registration. You do NOT have to do your intern year in Ireland in order to be registered/licensed here. You can do it outside the country, once it is approved by the Dean of your medical school.

 

[sugababe81]

The basic wage I think is fairly decent. I'll try to find exact figures. But it's the overtime that's the big thing. Even with the european time directive, which I'm not quite sure has completely gone into effect yet at least in some rotations, you can earn a lot in overtime pay. And even if it's not a lot more, there's at least more vacation time that you can use to regroup and prepare for going to the US. Not to mention that you can get 4 more letters of recommendation for the US application.

Applications for ERAS go out starting Sep.1st - 8 weeks of having started working as an intern, and hence, 1 reference letter, if you managed to shine during those 1st 8 weeks on the wards.

 

[leorl]

Cool, thanks. I was reporting what someone told me, I forgot about the timeline. That's the problem, specifics are hard to gather. Thanks for that!

 

[Jammer]

The basic wage I think is fairly decent. I'll try to find exact figures. But it's the overtime that's the big thing. Even with the european time directive, which I'm not quite sure has completely gone into effect yet at least in some rotations, you can earn a lot in overtime pay. And even if it's not a lot more, there's at least more vacation time that you can use to regroup and prepare for going to the US. Not to mention that you can get 4 more letters of recommendation for the US application.

Letters of reference from Ireland carry little if any weight when applying for a residency position in the US, unless by some random chance a person in the program you are applying to knows your letter writer; this is very rare, so don't fool yourself about the value of letters of reference you get from Ireland.

 

[Unch]

That may be so but i wouldn't underestimate the importance of Irish letters either. While Irish letters might not carry "equal weight", it's what we get from Ireland so be sure to pursue them. I know many here begin courting relationships with SHOs et al as soon as they start into clinical years. Also put yourself in the mindset of those granting residencies in NAmerica. Wouldn't it seem odd NOT to have any letters from your medical school?

Now that having been said, work extra hard on letters from your clinical electives in NAmerica. Be sure to respectfully in form your supervisor(s) at the outset that you'll be seeking a letter at the end. Basically, compile any and everything you can.

 

[Jammer]

The common trend was that those who did take extra time went for the H1b so that's why I said from my experience. But from everything I read, you can get your Step 3 done before the July start date so the fear of a late start for residency directors *shouldn't* be too much of an issue . Timing is tight though.

If you graduate in May, you are hard pressed to get your ECFMG certificate in time for your July 1st start date, never mind taking the Step 3; you need your ECFMG certificate to take the Step 3. Also, you are not even taking into consideration the time that it takes to get your Step 3 results and the time to process your H1b visa, which begins after you pass your Step 3.

Sometimes when you ask people questions regarding these issues, they forget to tell you about the logistics involved. When it comes to paperwork for residency, visas, etc., there is a lot more than meets the eyes. It always takes longer than you anticipate.

In my case, I graduated on May 26 and had my diploma and transcript sent to ECFMG on May 27. I called ECFMG and my program to follow the progress very closely. In addition, my program contacted their liason at ECFMG to make sure that everything was going smoothly. I got my ECFMG certificate on June 15, and received my DS-2019 paper (eligability for a J1-visa) on June 25. Also, if you have a passport from anywhere other than Canada, you need to schedule an appointment at the US embassy (outside of the US) to have your visa paperwork processed which can take a variable amount of time depending on the country you reside in (weeks to months). You can only schedule this appointment after you receive your initial visa documents (e.g., DS-2019).

Now, if you do the math, you'll figure that, on the average, you need at least 1 month in the best case scenario to have everything done in order to start your residency (that's not including your Step 3). I haven't even mentioned that most good programs have mandatory orientation for several days prior to July 1st in which you may also have to complete your ACLS and possibly ATLS training (both 2 day courses). Also, you have to consider moving, finding a place to live, getting some form of transportation, setting up a bank account and utilities, etc. Once, July 1st roles around, you will be starting work before anything opens and finishing after everything closes.

 

[Arb]

Good info. Thanks for sharing.

 

[EdmontonOilers]

I am a Canadian in his second year at UCD (Ireland). I have found that everyone in the years below me and ahead of me at UCD is planning on going to the US on J-1 visas at the moment.

What would be wrong with just chilling out, doing some observerships and/or research (or maybe fellowship if your lucky) for your 2 years return of service back in Canada? I don’t think having to spend a couple years in back Canada to do any of these things is that big of a deal (as long as you knew that you had a job back in the US when you were done so that you can make a great wage and pay off your loans). I think there is a much more important issue that Canadian Irish IMGs need to consider and don’t seem to be …….

DOES ANYONE KNOW OF ANY CANADIANS WHO HAVE ACTUALLY PROVEN THAT WE CAN COME BACK TO THE US AFTER OUR 2 YEARS RETURN OF SERVICE IN CANADA!!!!!! IF MOST OF US CANADIANS ARE GOING TO THE US ON J-1s AND SOME IF NOT MANY OF US DON’T GET J-1 WAIVERS THAT MEANS MANY OF US WILL END UP COMING BACK TO CANADA FOR 2 YEARS. I THINK ITS GREAT THAT AS CANADIAN IMGs WE KNOW SO MUCH ABOUT THE USMLEs, J-1 VISAS, STATEMENTS OF NEED, J-1 WAIVERS, ELECTIVES, LETTERS OF REFERENCE, BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY FOR THOSE OF US ENDING UP BACK IN CANADA FOR 2 YEARS IT WOULD ALL MEAN S*** IF WE COULDN’T GET BACK INTO THE US FOR JOBS. Granted, a lot of us want to stay in Canada after our 2 years and take the Canadian exams and work as physicians but personally I never want to put myself in a situation where I’m relying on Canada for a job as a foreign IMG even with a highly regarded US residency under my belt (see http://members.tripod.com/~donalda13/canimgexp.html). If I can get a residency as a GP in Canada after my degree great, but I have heard of Canadians not getting jobs back in Canada after their residency in the US and I don’t think it would be responsible to rely on this as a sole option.

SO, DOES ANYONE KNOW IF CANADIANS IMGs ARE GETTING BACK TO THE US AFTER THEIR 2 YEARS IN CANADA? I mean if we work hard we can pass our Irish medical exams, do well on the USMLEs, get residencies on J-1 visas and complete our US residencies. I am completely confident that any hard working Canadian IMG from Ireland can do this. But I find it surprising that no one seems to be worrying/researching the situation that many of us will be in after being in Canada for 2 years and looking for a job back in the US!!!!!!!!! (I know it probably depends on what type of residency training we got in the US so lets assume we have done a primary care specialty since most of us probably will). If getting back to the US is hard/impossible/takes many years to accomplish then you can ace the USMLEs, do some great US electives and get the best US residency in the world but you will still be screwed if you end up stuck in Canada doing research or something other than practicing medicine (assuming your goal is to return to the US after your 2 years and bearing in mind that it is difficult to practice medicine back in Canada even after a US residency – this is the general impression I have gotten anyway (see http://members.tripod.com/~donalda13/canimgexp.html) – I am speaking for people who want to return to the US for financial/personal reasons instead of trying to work in Canada).

It is the only part of this whole process that no one seems to have answers on and NO ONE CAN ACTUALLY GIVE ANY EVIDENCE THAT CANADIAN IMGs ARE MAKING THIS FINAL TRANSITION AND ACCOMPLISHING THEIR ULTIMATE GOAL OF WORKING IN THE US. I have been trying to get answers on this for many weeks and tried contacting many upper years to get this question answered but no one seems to know. It seems absurd that we know so much and are concentrating so hard on the whole process up to this point, yet no one knows about the logistics/possibility/steps of going back to the US after the 2 years in Canada. Sorry, Ive really gone off on a tangent here. I mean, I know we would need to go back on an H1-B visa. To get this visa we would need a hospital to sponsor us. Have any Canadians achieved this? How hard is it? Do we all end up staying in Canada possibly working as physicians, doing research, or delivering pizza? Apparently there are a lot of unemployed doctors in Canada. Are any of these UCD grads with US residencies completed?

Its just really bothering me that none of us Canadian IMGs seem to be caring about this or trying to find out about this. It seems EXTREMELY important to me since it is the final piece of the puzzle and just as important as all the pieces preceding it. I also think its irresponsible to just ASSUME that we must be able to get back since we have a US residency. Wouldn’t it be nice to hear about Canadian IMGs who are actually doing this? Some Canadian IMGs will tell me; its such a long ways away, don’t worry about it, OR it all works out it the end concentrate on the other stuff first. But this doesn’t make any sense to me and seems very foolish because before doing A and B and C, shouldn’t we find out whether or not we will eventually be able to do D?

If there are any Canadians IMGs who are: (1) almost done their US residency, (2) have done their residency and are back in Canada or on J-1 waivers (3) have finished their 2 years return of service in Canada and are now practicing in the US (4) aware of any other IMGs in any of the preceding situations ….. could you please shed some light and concrete evidence on this all important issue that no Canadian IMG that I know of really seems to be taking seriously.

It boggles my mind, I mean, this is the last all important step and it seems like no one cares about it or is bothering to research it. We know so much about all the other steps and are working so hard to achieve them yet it seems like there is nothing out there about this last one. It is driving me crazy!!!

Anyway, sorry once again guys for the long post but this issue is really bothering me and I think it REALLY needs to be addressed and researched by all us hard working, driven Canadian IMGs who are going down to the US on J-1s and eventually want to practice medicine in the US!!!!!!!!

 

[EdmontonOilers]

Arb – what makes you think the J-1 waiver is so hard to get? I seem to hear this a lot on the SDN and on other medical chat forums. You could be right. I was just wondering where you heard this from?

This is another big question that I have on my mind. I mean, how hard is it really to get a J-1 waiver as a Canadian IMG from an Irish medical school? I talked to four or five legitimate, reputable physician recruiting firms in the US and a very renowned immigration lawyer who specializes in J-1 waivers in the US about this issue. They all seemed to think that obtaining a J-1 waiver as a Canadian IMG wouldn’t be that difficult at all. They said that a Canadian IMG wouldn’t have much trouble finding a job in an underserviced area and getting sponsored on a J-1 waiver. The immigration lawyer said that there are “Conrad 30 J-1 waivers” left over in 20 of the participating US states every year. Although, you need to find a job in an underserviced area before you can get one of these waivers. Also, apparently we would have an advantage because hospitals like taking J-1 doctors with English as their first language. Any input from Canadians who have or havent gotten these J-1 waivers? I could be wrong about this. Its hard to say anything with descent certainty unless you hear it from Canadian IMGs who have done it themselves. I have no tangible evidence from any upper year Canadians who have actually gone through this process. I am finding it to be a very, very difficult question to answer after much research.

 

[EdmontonOilers]

Many of the above posters mention the possibility of staying in Ireland after their degree as an intern. I am very interested in this prospect. I have found that once a Canadian finishes that internship year he would have the opportunity to go to the UK, New Zealand, Australia or pretty much any English speaking country in the EU to practice. I would love to do this so I really looked into the possibility.

I talked to a few staff members at UCD and RCSI and they told me that Irish internships are given first to EU nationals before any North Americans by law. I was told that so far at UCD and RCSI they have been able to find all their North Americans who didn’t go to the US or Canada spots but it is becoming harder and harder each year because more Irish students are entering the curriculum and class sizes are getting bigger. Administration at both schools said that by no means can a Canadian rely on getting one of these internships as a backup. For example, I talked to the two ladies at UCD responsible for placing UCD grads in internships at affiliated UCD teaching hospitals after their degrees. I asked them the prospect of me staying after my degree on an Irish internship. They both said that they have had no problems placing North Americans up to date but each year it gets harder and harder as class sizes are getting bigger and bigger with more Irish students. They are having to put the North Americans in southern hospitals but even this is getting harder. They said that they could definitely not predict what the situation might be in 2,3 or 6 years from now. There is a shortage of docs in Ireland and the Irish government has temporarily tried to solve the problem by putting more and more Irish grads into the system so this trend of increasing class sizes is going to continue. Apparently the government hasn’t done anything to increase internship spots though. Has anyone heard about this? Do you think administration is exagerating and telling North Americans this to encourage them to get residencies in the US and Canada before relying on Ireland? Anyone heard differently? Everyone on this thread seems confident that internships will be available so maybe I am missing something.

 

[EdmontonOilers]

Hi Sugababe81

You mentioned that you can get registered/liscensed in Ireland after completing a US residency without having to do an internship year in Ireland. I have heard that this is true myself from upper years at our school who are actually currently going through this very process. Does this mean that after we served our 2 year home return requirement in Canada we could go practice medicine in Ireland or anywhere in the EU if we wanted? Do you think a Canadian would have much problem entering into the position above internship year in Ireland (House officer) after his/her two years in Canada?
Where did you get your info?

 

[EdmontonOilers]

I have really looked into our options as Canadian Irish IMGs (Canadian citizens going to Irish med schools) over the past month and this is what I found our situation boils down to. I have posted this little synopsis on a new thread in this forum in case people miss it by not reading this thread.

(1) You could possibly go back to Canada for family medicine (possibly a specialty but small chances). If you worked hard and put together a good CV you would have a great shot in a rural area for family med. There are programs outside the match in certain provinces you could apply to as well. But there is also a good shot that you would not get a spot back in Canada. Not all of us are successful in going back for FP. I don’t think it is realistic or responsible to assume you can get one of these spots even if you work hard and have good electives in Canada.

(2) You could finish your degree and possibly get an internship in Ireland. Once (and only once) you finish your internship you are certified to practice medicine in Ireland and you can branch off and practice in Australia, the UK and other English speaking parts of the EU. BUT every year there are more and more Irish citizens entering medical school and by law the government must give internships to EU nationals first. Apparently it is becoming harder and harder for Irish med schools to place their North Americans in Irish internships who want them. I have been advised by RCSI and UCD staff that it would NOT be good idea to assume that I will get one of these positions. So, like FP in Canada, I don’t think it’s responsible to assume that you can get one of these spots even if you work hard and have great marks at an Irish med school.

(3) That leaves going back to the US. This is a very, very good option and I believe that as a Canadian IMG from Ireland that works hard, does descent on the USMLEs, has a couple electives in the US, and wants a primary care specialty (ie. FP, Peds, IM, psych) you will certainly get a residency in the US on a J-1 visa. This route is essentially certain and very realistic. It is hard to get an H1-B and I don’t think you can assume that you could get one of these visas even with a great CV; therefore, you will probably be going down on a J-1. Again, no problem, a hard working Canadian will get this visa. THE PROBLEM IS, no one really knows what us Canadians are doing after finishing our residencies on the J-1. Are we getting J-1 waivers? Really, how difficult are they to get for us? MORE IMPORTANTLY, those of us that are not getting J-1 visas (and I believe there are some of us that don’t) head back to Canada for 2 years. Are we able to get back to the US after our 2 years? Are we having difficulty? Are many of us just settling for research in Canada? Some of us may be getting fellowships and working as physicians in Canada but again it would be irresponsible to consider this as a good option (see http://members.tripod.com/~donalda13/canimgexp.html). Canada has very strict regulations against IMGs even with US residencies and I know from researching the web that some successful Canadian IMGs are unsuccessful at getting positions in Canada (even when they made sure that their US residencies were equivalent in years and recognized in Canada).

So my conclusion in terms of our ability as Canadian Irish IMGs to get jobs as physicians when we finish....... Canada is a good option for FP but it is by no means a certain option and it would be irresponsible to assume you could go this route even if you worked hard and did well in your studies. Ireland is a good option for an internship, but once again I think it would be irresponsible to assume you could guarantee yourself one as a North American with the increasing amounts of Irish kids entering med school. The US is a very, very good option. You could definitely get a residency in primary care if you worked hard. But what are your chances at a J-1 waiver? No one seems to really know. What are your chances of getting back into the US after two years return of service in Canada? My gut feeling says you should be able to find something with the doctor shortage in the US, but again no one really knows. I cannot get in contact with any Canadian Irish IMGs who have completed this final step.

So after all my research I am yet to find a pathway that a hard working, successful Canadian Irish IMG (CII) could take and know with reasonable certainty that he/she would have job at the end. If you could get a Canadian residency or an Irish internship you can definitely work as a physician. But a hard working CII can not responsibly rely on either of these as solid options. In contrast, I believe a successful CII can definitely rely on a US residency on a J-1 as a great option but at this point I cannot assume that this leads to a job with reasonable certainty as I have not been able to collect any concrete evidence that Canadians are getting J-1 waivers or jobs in the US after their 2 years back in Canada. If I knew Canadians were getting back to the US after their 2 years in Canada I believe this would be the most reasonable and essentially certain route for a hard working CII.

So to be honest I am a little freaked out right now. I would be happy working in any one of these three countries (Canada, US, Ireland) because my dream is to work as a physician and where I do this is absolutely irrelevant for me. I plan on pursuing all three routes. I am very hard working and I am doing well in my studies but I cannot find any path that I could pursue that could lead me to a job in the end with reasonable certainty. I know nothing is guaranteed in life but I am not looking for a guarantee. I am looking for a route that I could be reasonably confident that I could take and get a job when Im finished if I worked really hard and did well on my exams etc. The only route that I think offers this would be the US IF someone could show me that most Canadians are getting J-1 waivers or MORE IMPORTANTLY jobs back in the US after their 2 years return of service in Canada. I think it would be in any Canadian Irish IMG’s best interest to look into this diligently. ANY HELP ON THIS ISSUE WOULD BE VERY, VERY APPRECIATED.

Thanks so much guys. This forum is great.

 

[EdmontonOilers]

The link that I included in my posts above arent working right so for those of you who are interested you can get to the appropriate web page by doing a google search on "The Ultimate Canadian International Medical Graduate Web Site." It should come up as the first link listed on the search results. Once you get to the web page scroll to the bottom of the page and click on the link "Canadian International Medical Graduate Experiences."

I think if you're a Canadian IMG you may want to have a look at this.

Thanks

 

[Jammer]

The link that I included in my posts above arent working right so for those of you who are interested you can get to the appropriate web page by doing a google search on "The Ultimate Canadian International Medical Graduate Web Site." It should come up as the first link listed on the search results. Once you get to the web page scroll to the bottom of the page and click on the link "Canadian International Medical Graduate Experiences."

I think if you're a Canadian IMG you may want to have a look at this.

Thanks

Dude, you need to take two Xanax and calm the f**k down.

For a person that claims that you have done your research and that you are informed, your ranting makes you sound like you're clueless.

The only doctors that have difficulty finding jobs in Canada are the one's without licences.

Another thing is that if you're considering family medicine, currently, you cannot get a 'statement of need' from Canada for family medicine in the US.

Also, what makes you so sure that you want to practice medicine in the US??? Have you worked in hospitals in Canada and the US?

 

[Jocks]

Dude, you need to take two Xanax and calm the f**k down.

For a person that claims that you have done your research and that you are informed, your ranting makes you sound like you're clueless.

The only doctors that have difficulty finding jobs in Canada are the one's without licences.

Another thing is that if you're considering family medicine, currently, you cannot get a 'statement of need' from Canada for family medicine in the US.

Also, what makes you so sure that you want to practice medicine in the US??? Have you worked in hospitals in Canada and the US?

For once, I agree with Jammer...sort of. Edmonton, I'm curious why you're posting these questions to a forum filled with high school students and undergrads, yet you have not posted these questions in the Residency forums? If anything, the people who have the answers to your questions will be there, not here with all us noobs.
While I think your line of questioning has merit, the way your asking them is promoting needless fear among canadian applicants. The visa concerns are held by more than just Irish students...any canadian studying medicine in the U.S. must apply for the same visas that Irish grads do...and so far, I have yet to see a single U.S. applicant worry. Also, if your really want to talk to canadian UCD grads, there is a North American Medical Graduate Association. I would contact the UCD alumni association for more information.
Finally, Family meds in canada isn't just family meds...there are a bunch of +1 year programs that let you further specialize: EM, OB/GYN, Anaesthesia to name a few.
So in conclusion, maybe your not getting the answers your looking for because this isn't the right forum for those questions. And maybe typing out entire paragraphs in bold isn't the most constructive way of getting your point across.

Cheers,
Jocks

 

[Arb]

If I remember correctly, Canadian graduates of American med schools can go the OPT route so most secure H1b visas for residency. That's why they don't have to worry. Many Caribbean grads also get the H1b without any problems and in great locations like New York. Irish school schedule makes it more difficult it seems.

The information on J1 waivers that I hear are all anecdotal. I think the reason why so many say they are hard to obtain is that there are only a small number of positions compared to applicants. It is doable though because Canadians do get them.

Every year, Canada lose doctors to the US. Only recently, there has been more doctors returning than leaving. It must be possible to return to the US. It all depends on how much the hospitals want you. It's up to you to make them want to hire you and if they do, they will do what they can to get you that visa/green card.

If you can't find a place in the US after 2 years, what about Australia and Europe? Are those options viable? You can also take the MCCQEs and work your way into the Canadian system. Newfoundland will do all they can to get you. Someone from Newfoundland told me that the government will even pay for your house and living to keep you there...yet they are still in short supply of doctors.

 

[Arb]

I made a thread regarding this topic in the General Residency forum. Hopefully people will respond. EO, can you answer my questions on UCD?

 

[EdmontonOilers]

Hey Jammer,

I never meant to give the impression that I thought I was "all-informed." I merely stated that I had done a lot of research on this topic over the past month and that I was "relatively informed."

I plan on applying to the Canadian match for a GP position since specialties are extremely difficult for IMGs to obtain. When applying to the US I plan on applying for IM or Peds because this is what I am interested in at this point (I know it is too early to tell). When asking Canada for a statement of need I wouldnt be asking them for one for FP.

If I obtained a primary care residency in the US and had to go back to Canada afterwards for 2 years I would look into the possibility of practicing in Canada but I dont think it would be wise to rely on this as a sole option since Canada has strict regulations against foreign IMGs no matter what their background. I would prefer to return to the US this far along in my medical career for financial and personal reasons. You're right, I have no way of really knowing at this point whether I would prefer to work in Canada or the US. But at this point I am only trying to determine a route that would allow me to obtain work as a physician with reasonable certainty after working hard in my training. I have done shadowships in both countries and have visited the US many times; therefore, in my limited experience I can say at this point in time that I would be happy living in the US.

I think it is a valid concern to wonder whether or not it is difficult to return to the US after 2 years in Canada. Especially when I cannot get in touch with any Canadians who have successfully taken this route. In addition to this, I know of more than one Canadian who has had difficulty finding work back in Canada after a US residency that was the same length as the Canadian equivalent. Granted, I have obtained this information from random websites on the web. But in fairness, these websites were published by Canadian IMGs. I mean, it is looking like it would be no problem coming back to the US after 2 years in Canada, but dont you think that this is an important enough issue that it warrants a little proof?

You made this statement in your last reply "The only doctors that have difficulty finding jobs in Canada are the one's without licences." What exactly do you mean by this and how do you know this?

Hey Jocks,

I agree that there may be better forums for this thread, but I know that there are many Canadians currently attending Irish medical schools that view this forum regularly. I think that these individuals would be well suited to answer my questions. Not to mention, I think it is important that they are considering these issues and researching them for themselves. The earlier Canadian Irish students study these issues, the better off they are when planning for their futures and deciding such things as what visas to try and obtain when applying to US residencies. In addition, I know that there are Canadian IMGs currently in US residencies that view this forum regularly as well.

Also, Arb is right. Canadians studying at US medical schools have much less trouble obtaining H1-B visas than Canadians studying in other countries.

I realize that after two years of family medicine in Canada you can specialize in other programs such as IM or ER. I mentioned in one of my posts (too long I admit) that I would be happy with a GP position in Canada after my Irish degree.

I agree that typing in bold during my posts probably isnt the best way to get my point accross. I wont do this anymore and I will try and sound a little less crazy in my posts.

Thanks for the tip on trying to get a hold of UCD alumni. Ill try it.

 

[EdmontonOilers]

I will post my question under the general residency forum as well. Thanks for the help Arb.

 

[vnsa]

okay, so all of EdmontonOilers recent rants have done much to thoroughly scare the pants off me...

I'm a Canadian citizen, born and raised in BC, who recently accepted a spot at UCC this fall... thinking, okay, second round of CaRMS isn't so bad, and if that fails, go to the states for residency...

So, what's the big deal with doing your residency training in the US, then coming back to Canada to work as a physician? Assuming that's what I want to do, and I'm not interested in spending two years back in Canada (after the J-1), then trying to get back to the states. Is it really that hard for Canadians who did their residencies in the states to get licenced back home?

Does anybody know?.. because EO makes it sound quite difficult...

I'm inclined to believe this can't be all sooooo difficult (becoming a physician after going to med school in Ireland)... because, really, what has everyone else done? It can't be that all these Canadians are shipping off to Ireland for medical training, and then all just ending up in research or as drug reps...

 

[arcticmonkeys]

Yeah in response to vnsa, I'm in a similar situation. I really like to think that it can't be THAT hard to get back, but maybe we're just trying to fool ourselves. The thing is, also, how many Canadians are there graduating from an Irish medical school each year?? I'm guessing... 20-30 per school, so around 150 or so?? give or take twenty? So what happens if you can't stay in Ireland ,but no residency in N.America accepts you?? Do you just keep applying?? Hmmm....

 

[Arb]

A coworker just informed me her sister's brother-in-law(?) graduated from Ireland and is now a doctor practising in Philadelphia. He's Canadian. Hopefully I can get in touch with him.