A tragedy: DO students against the osteopathic profession

[Adapt]

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As a probable future DO student, I will be the first to say that I am saddened when I see so many future DOs complain about their own profession. We already get enough crap from MDs and pre-MDs, and yet we add insult to injury when we have DO students against us.

What kind of example does that set for pre-DO students who may really want to be DOs. Do you really want to prevent premeds from applying DO further deteriorating the quality of DO students?

I find the ones who are the harshest critics are the ones that are the MD-rejects and had to attend a DO school. To you I say you should be glad that the osteopathic profession took you in and you should lift it up and be proud of the profession rather than degrade it.

Also, this argument about where the money goes applies the same way with MD private schools. You pay 36K a year at Drexel and 38K a year at Temple. Do you all think that money is well spent particularly during your clinical years? I am not so sure that is the case.

I am sure PCOM students rotate at the same hospitals as Drexel and Temple students so really, if you're going to bash DO schools for where the money goes, you should bash MD private schools as well.

Thus, the argument that was made in another thread applies not only to DO schools, but to private MD schools, and to caribbean schools. Should we not attend private MD schools or caribbean schools just because the tuition is high and we are not entirely sure where all the money goes? I think not.

To all DO students who may hate DO schools, I hope that your dissatisfaction and bitterness toward the very schools that have given you the opportunity to become a physician fail to instill this same bitterness towards other DO students and pre-DO students who have come to be proud of the profession.

 

[DireWolf]

I am assuming that your comments are directed toward me and some others.

1. I'm not an MD reject.

2. I'm not bitter about my school. Somewhat dissatisfied yes.

3. You are the one who is insecure about attending a DO school. You fear any negative publicity will further the bias against osteopathic medicine. If you sincerely believe that a couple students on SDN having a civil argument about osteopathic medicine is causing "further deterioration" of the profession, then you are giving us WAY too much credit. But thanks for the flattery.

4. It is those who stand idly by and don't discuss/argue the shortcomings of osteopathic medicine/education that are doing a great disservice to the profession. Just acting like nothing is wrong isn't going to make the problem go away. I feel people like you inflict much greater harm onto the profession than any of "us".

5. Based on your comments, you have failed to read any of our arguments on the other thread. Or maybe you don't read real well. You keep making asinine statements and totally disregard the arguments that were presented.

6. I am proud of the school I attend. It has shortcomings and problems just like any other school. But I refuse to stand pat. Not addressing these issues is cheating future applicants. They deserve the truth and they deserve better.

7. Sorry that every topic on SDN can't be hugs-n-kisses. Unfortunately the real world isn't like that.

 

[LukeWhite]

Adapt,

As a definite current DO student, I'll be the first to say that I'm glad not all osteopathic folks are the rah-rah-rally-about-the-flag type. It seems to me that's been the case for a hundred years, and it's led to marginalization.

Osteopathy has a lot of unrealized potential, and the only way it will be realized is by internal change. Your support-for-osteopathy track, it seems to me, would lead to a quite a lot of cranial-manipulating students going into subpar osteopathic residencies for a holistic edge which, frankly, is minimal.

Medicine is science and business. It's perfectly reasonable for those learning a science to demand adequate support for its tenets, and it would be foolish for a consumer not to demand the best value from the businesses they're paying many tens of thousands of dollars to. It's not a case of disloyalty or disrespect to the profession; it's a matter of refusing to be spoonfed whatever comes along.

And there's a lot spoonfed that would be better thrown away. I find the griping rather refreshing--if there's enough of it, the good schools will survive and the poor ones will be weeded out. I'm all for expansion of osteopathy; I'm also all for seeing a few underperforming schools implode.

I think you'll find that most of us who criticize certain elements of osteopathic education have nothing but the fondest hopes for the future of osteopathy; that's why we reserve our harshest vitriol for those elements within it that dilute and diminish.

 

[Adapt]

I am assuming that your comments are directed toward me and some others.

1. I'm not an MD reject.

2. I'm not bitter about my school. Somewhat dissatisfied yes.

3. You are the one who is insecure about attending a DO school. You fear any negative publicity will further the bias against osteopathic medicine. If you sincerely believe that a couple students on SDN having a civil argument about osteopathic medicine is causing "further deterioration" of the profession, then you are giving us WAY too much credit. But thanks for the flattery.

4. It is those who stand idly by and don't discuss/argue the shortcomings of osteopathic medicine/education that are doing a great disservice to the profession. Just acting like nothing is wrong isn't going to make the problem go away. I feel people like you inflict much greater harm onto the profession than any of "us".

5. Based on your comments, you have failed to read any of our arguments on the other thread. Or maybe you don't read real well. You keep making asinine statements and totally disregard the arguments that were presented.

6. I am proud of the school I attend. It has shortcomings and problems just like any other school. But I refuse to stand pat. Not addressing these issues is cheating future applicants. They deserve the truth and they deserve better.

7. Sorry that every topic on SDN can't be hugs-n-kisses. Unfortunately the real world isn't like that.

Why do you assume that this thread was directed towards you. This thread is directed towards people that put down the osteopathic profession. I did not even say anyone's name.

I believe that your personal attacks toward me were uncalled for. First I am not insecure about attending a DO school and I am fully literate in the language of english.

I hope that other fellow DO students don't flame me like the above for trying to make an observation about detering DO negativity.

 

[box29]

I agree with you Adapt.

If something's going to change, we have to do it as the next generation of DO's! We can't just complain and shoot out hot air because that is going to go nowhere. I think as DO students, we need to become involved in the medical organizations that support students and eventually work our way into the governing bodies. I for sure hope that more of us students get involved as we will become the future of our profession.

 

[DireWolf]

Why do you assume that this thread was directed towards you. This thread is directed towards people that put down the osteopathic profession. I did not even say anyone's name.

I believe that your personal attacks toward me were uncalled for. First I am not insecure about attending a DO school and I am fully literate in the language of english.

I hope that other fellow DO students don't flame me like the above for trying to make an observation about detering DO negativity.

It was pretty freaking obvious who you were talking about. I guess it's just a coincidence that you made this thread right after some of us had posted in the "why not to attend a DO school" thread? please.

I wasn't "flaming". I was rebutting your comments. This is what people do in discussions/conversations/arguments.

I threw in the personal attack for free. 😉

 

[Adapt]

Adapt,

As a definite current osteopathic student, I'll be the first to say that I'm glad not all osteopathic folks are the rah-rah-rally-about-the-flag type. It seems to me that's been the case for a hundred years or so, and it's led for the most part to marginalization and a lack of respect.

Osteopathy has a lot of unrealized potential, and the only way it will be realized is by internal change. Your support-for-osteopathy track, it seems to me, would lead to a quite a lot of cranial-manipulating students going into subpar osteopathic residencies for a holistic edge which, frankly, is minimal.

Medicine is a science and a business. It's perfectly reasonable for those learning a science to demand adequate support for its tenets, and it would be foolish for a consumer not to demand the best value from the businesses they're paying many tens of thousands of dollars to. It's not a case of disloyalty or disrespect to the profession; it's a matter of refusing to be spoonfed whatever comes along.

And to be sure, there's a lot spoonfed that would be better thrown away. I find the griping rather refreshing--if there's enough of it, the good schools will survive and the poor ones will be weeded out. I'm all for expansion of osteopathy; I'm also all for seeing a few underperforming schools implode.

I think you'll find that most of us who criticize certain elements of osteopathic education have nothing but the fondest hopes for the future of osteopathy; that's why we reserve our harshest vitriol for the elements within it that dilute and diminish it.

You bring up a good point but the type of rhetoric used is key. First off, the thread that says "You should not attend a DO school because..." is an insult to all who attend DO schools or who plan to attend DO schools.

When I see statements like the admins are just making lots of cash off their students and DO schools are just trying to churn out students to make money. That's not trying to fix the profession. That's just taking shots at it. Plus, there's really no way to prove this occurs without evidence. So why say stuff that for all intents and purposes may be false.

We can all try to find solutions about how to fix the profession but when DO students sit around complaining about this and that, I think it's pathetic. They just try to find different ways to take shots at the profession, and in all honesty, perhaps they shouldn't even be in the profession if that's what they want to do.

It is one thing to try to find solutions to solve the problems, but it is another thing to just complain about it. These are two totally different things and the other thread was just a lot of complaining to me.

 

[LukeWhite]

With all due respect, I'm not sure that as a premed you're in a position to say that these people are "just complaining." You certainly can't know what they're doing to change the things they consider wrong with the profession.

A lot of the change is going to come about when the group of people you accuse of fruitless griping are in practice. This is an excellent forum for hashing out ideas like this. It didn't exist fifty years ago, and DO students toed the party line because they knew no other. We've got the resources now to compare notes, decide which aspects of our respective schools are wanting in relation to the others, and figure out what aspects of the profession are lacking in relation to medicine as a whole.

Talking about what to change precedes the change itself; it seems to me that deploring the talk is a bit misplaced. If someone says something false, by all means call them out on it. If it's true, though, people applying should know. There's no such thing as too much information, particularly when a $250,000 decision is on the line. If I hadn't done my research beforehand into what schools had vast numbers of malcontents, I might very well have ended up in a subpar program or (horrors!) an allopathic one.

Live and let live--no good ever came of telling people to be quiet.

 

[Adapt]

First I am not telling anyone to be quiet. I am all for a discussion to further improve the DO profession but it is the statements like the following that I find disheartening. I am sure you will too. They only put down the osteopathic profession.

The DO schools are taking advantage of pre-meds willingness to go ANYWHERE for ANY AMOUNT of tuition, just to reach their dreams. The schools will gladly accept almost anyone just to fill their coffers. They dont' care that the student will be 200k in debt

The injustice here is that they continue to open up more schools, water down the quality of the students, and do nothing to improve the clinical education or residency education of their graduates.

This, in my opinion, is the equivalent of rape.

I see a DO school as the low road, the easy way out when the going gets tough...although it ain't easy by any stretch, but DO schools assume no risk in the process, only you.

Please, Luke don't give me this self-righteous nonsense that my opinion doesn't count since I'm just a premed.

 

[DireWolf]

First I am not telling anyone to be quiet. I am all for a discussion to further improve the DO profession but it is the statements like the following that I find disheartening. I am sure you will too. They only put down the osteopathic profession.

I stand by my statement as fact. Disprove anything that I said.

Is it an attack on osteopathic medicine? You bet.

Oh well. Can't always dwell on the good. Sometimes it's better to dwell on the bad.

 

[Adapt]

I stand by my statement as fact. Disprove anything that I said.

Is it an attack on osteopathic medicine? You bet.

Oh well. Can't always dwell on the good. Sometimes it's better to dwell on the bad.

The burden of proof is usually placed on the person who makes the accusation.

If you want to dwell on the bad well so be it. However, just know that their are pre-DOs and future DOs who see what you say and the example that you set for them as a DO student.

 

[LukeWhite]

First off, I'd say it's pretty shady to get on DireWolf's case for assuming the thread is directed at him and then a few posts later quote him as an example of the sort of attacks you're deploring. Can't have it both ways! If you have an issue with someone's reasoning, it might be good to admit it and thus let them defend themselves.

As for the quotes, I'd suggest that the osteopathic profession is not synonymous with osteopathic education. One can be perfectly devoted to osteopathy in general while at the same time thinking that its method of education has significant problems. In fact, if you were to survey old-time gung-ho osteopathic docs seeing fly-by-night branch campuses being planned hither and thither, they'd tell you much the same thing.

I'll say it again--osteopathy has a lot of potential; it's underachieved, though. There's no harm in saying so. Its feelings won't be hurt (it being an abstract concept and all). Let's argue the points on the merits and not worry too much whether anyone's showing proper respect for the profession. Premeds are smart kids; they can sort out the wheat from the chaff of this discussion on their own. If they're so impressionable as to be unable to do so, I'm not going to shed too many tears if they take a pass on osteopathy.

 

[Adapt]

First off, I'd say it's pretty shady to get on DireWolf's case for assuming the thread is directed at him and then a few posts later quote him as an example of the sort of attacks you're deploring. Can't have it both ways! If you have an issue with someone's reasoning, it might be good to admit it and thus let them defend themselves.

As for the quotes, I'd suggest that the osteopathic profession is not synonymous with osteopathic education. One can be perfectly devoted to osteopathy in general while at the same time thinking that its method of education has significant problems. In fact, if you were to survey old-time gung-ho osteopathic docs seeing fly-by-night branch campuses being planned hither and thither, they'd tell you much the same thing.

I'll say it again--osteopathy has a lot of potential; it's underachieved, though. There's no harm in saying so. Its feelings won't be hurt (it being an abstract concept and all). Let's argue the points on the merits and not worry too much whether anyone's showing proper respect for the profession. Premeds are smart kids; they can sort out the wheat from the chaff of this discussion on their own. If they're so impressionable as to be unable to do so, I'm not going to shed too many tears if they take a pass on osteopathy.

I didn't get on Direwolf's case he got on mine first by insulting me.

The osteopathic profession entails everything that is osteopathic including osteopathic education.

I agree with what you said in your last paragraph. I'm not even taking issue with that. What I do take issue with is when comments that obviously degrade the profession or the education are made, it does nothing to improve the situation.

Luke, if you want to condone those statements then by all means do it but I for one think it's just the wrong example to set for premeds who may be interested in DO.

 

[DireWolf]

The burden of proof is usually placed on the person who makes the accusation.

If you want to dwell on the bad well so be it. However, just know that their are pre-DOs and future DOs who see what you say and the example that you set for them as a DO student.

If the example I have set is one of questioning your institution and striving for improvement, then so be it. 👍

Proof:

1. Three more DO schools are scheduled to open soon. VCOM opened up two years ago. This is proof that more DO schools are opening at a fast pace.

2. LECOM Bradenton is having trouble filling the first class. Heard it straight from an applicant. They have accepted several students with low MCATs (<20). This has been confirmed by a couple acceptees that posted their numbers on this board and by some applicants I've spoken with. We've already had the "MCAT argument", but it's still considered a good measure of student quality.

3. D.O. residencies are closing due to lack of funding and poor quality control. The EM residency program at Des Peres Hospital in STL is a prime example. DO residencies (with a few exceptions) are viewed as inferior to MD residencies by MDs, DOs, students, headhunters, etc. My neighbor is a physician headhunter and said physicians who trained at osteopathic residencies are always placed at the bottom of the list. It has nothing to with the DO degree, just the residency training program. Several clinical professors at my school (hardcore DOs) have told me to stear clear of osteopathic residencies due to funding and training issues.

There you go partner.

 

[Adapt]

If the example I have set is one of questioning your institution and striving for improvement, then so be it. 👍

Proof:

1. Three more DO schools are scheduled to open soon. VCOM opened up two years ago. This is proof that more DO schools are opening at a fast pace.

2. LECOM Bradenton is having trouble filling the first class. Heard it straight from an applicant. They have accepted several students with low MCATs (<20). This has been confirmed by a couple acceotees that posted their numbers on this board and by some applicants I've spoken with. We've already had the "MCAT argument", but it's still considered a good measure of student quality.

3. D.O. residencies are closing due to lack of funding and poor quality control. The EM residency program at Des Peres Hospital in STL is a prime example. DO residencies (with a few exceptions) are viewed as inferior to MD residencies by MDs, DOs, students, headhunters, etc. My neighbor is a physician headhunter and said physicians who trained at osteopathic residencies are always placed at the bottom of the list. It has nothing to with the DO degree, just the residency training program. Several clinical professors at my school (hardcore DOs) have told me to stear clear of osteopathic residencies due to funding and training issues.

There you go partner.

Fair enough. Once again I am all for discussion and improving the DO situation. What I am not for is over the top statements like DO schools are the low road, they don't care about their students, and what they do is equivalent to rape. 👍

 

[DireWolf]

Fair enough. Once again I am all for discussion and improving the DO situation. What I am not for is over the top statements like DO schools are the low road, they don't care about their students, and what they do is equivalent to rape. 👍

The rape comment was a little over the top. But it livens things up a little bit, don't you think?

 

[Adapt]

The rape comment was a little over the top. But it livens things up a little bit, don't you think?

I guess. I mean it's funny but still.

I don't know. I didn't mean to attack anyone by this thread. I apologize to you Direwolf if that's what it seemed. It's just frustrating when I see DO students unhappy about the DO profession, education, or whatever.

I get enough crap from non-DO students but it hurts more when DO students say it. It just makes it seem that the DO profession is this horrible money grubbing, selfish profession, who doesn't care about its students, and pawn them off to fend for themselves in their rotations and residency.

It truly is sad.

 

[JMC_MarineCorps]

 

[(nicedream)]

LECOM Bradenton is having trouble filling the first class. Heard it straight from an applicant. They have accepted several students with low MCATs (<20). This has been confirmed by a couple acceptees that posted their numbers on this board and by some applicants I've spoken with.

This is just plain incorrect. I don't know where the misinformation regarding LECOM-Bradenton is coming from. Must be residual prejudice of the parental institution. LECOM could not "recruit" ie. advertise the new campus until accreditation was completed - as such, the app. deadline was later than usual - May 15. The plan was for interviews to continue through June. The class was filled during the first week of May - in fact they are increasing the first-year enrollment from 150 to 160 due to overwhelming interest. They would have increased it more but there is a 5% limit due to accred. comm. rules. There has been NO TROUBLE FILLING THE FIRST CLASS.
As for people being accepted with low MCATs - TWO people on SDN discussed their sub-20 MCAT scores. That means nothing. I know people at several DO schools with such scores.

Please discuss these issues without spreading false information.

 

[DireWolf]

This is just plain incorrect. I don't know where the misinformation regarding LECOM-Bradenton is coming from. Must be residual prejudice of the parental institution. LECOM could not "recruit" ie. advertise the new campus until accreditation was completed - as such, the app. deadline was later than usual - May 15. The plan was for interviews to continue through June. The class was filled during the first week of May - in fact they are increasing the first-year enrollment from 150 to 160 due to overwhelming interest. They would have increased it more but there is a 5% limit due to accred. comm. rules. There has been NO TROUBLE FILLING THE FIRST CLASS.
As for people being accepted with low MCATs - TWO people on SDN discussed their sub-20 MCAT scores. That means nothing. I know people at several DO schools with such scores.

Please discuss these issues without spreading false information.

I have heard otherwise from credible applicants. Again, I wasn't trying to imply that every person or even many accepted to LECOM has <20 MCAT. Just that SOME have. And yes, one of my friends was told in his interview that he would have no problem getting accepted because they were having a hard time filling the class with quality applicants. Don't shoot the messenger. I have nothing to gain with these comments.

 

[Hayduke]

Adapt,


I am not here to bash DOs nor will I. I stand firmly behind my prior statements that the men and women who pass their boards deserve all access training, royalties, and entitlements thereof. I just take issue with whoever said "they should be thankful for the chance," because as I said, DO schools assume no risk for your failure and getting your "chance" is like getting your shot at Phoenix University -- YAWN!

I understand your sentiment, but perhaps you could learn a little from perusing the pre-osteo boards and waitlist threads.
Further...the people who launch into the osteopathic track do so w/ fewer guarantees than those who earn/work/snake their way into allo. slots. We have a future much closer to that of the docs. that came out in the 60s/70s.
While semi-competitive teh entrance to medical school was no ticket out. Passing courses and getting past the licensing exam became THE road.

DO schools, rather my school, have recently enacted a two strike program. Two fails w/ retests and you're gone. You are only allowed 2 restests during your pre-clinical years. Board passage is requisite to graduation.

The allo. schools at which I interviewed bragged about a <.5% attrition rate. Having worked as a nurse w/ some of their graduates, I can tell ya that ain't a success. They may have been dragged through school, but I wouldn't let them pet my dog much less care for my family.

As far as the osteo. school thing goes...entering the tunnel might be a little easier, but getting out the other side is at least as hard.

Speaking of which, I need to go get some on this Path. final. I was well prepared for the gross part of the test by my first rate Anatomy class. See we're second only to Columbia in hours spent in the course, and student/faculty ratios. The Pathology course is a biznitch having been taught by a hematology god w/a DVM/MD, a path/derm dually boarded guru from UCSD, and a covey of other kick-ass profs.

This'll pave the way for next year when my internationally known neuro. prof. and Tuft's shared nervous system instructor bring the hammer on me. I can't wait!!

H

 

[bobo]

I am sure PCOM students rotate at the same hospitals as Drexel and Temple students

How are you "sure"? Do you go to school at PCOM? Your idiotic assertion is true only a very small percent of the time.

 

[Su4n2]

ADAPT,
i am honestly sick of your posts. you go back and forth about whether you want to be a DO and when REAL DO STUDENTS have legitimate complaints, you have problems with that. let me explain something , this is our chosen profession and if we don't complain about its pitfalls, who will? u have no clue as to what you are talking about because u are not in school yet. it is not yet your profession, in fact you hope to get of thwe waitlist at an MD school. so where do you get of telling us what we can/can't say about OUR profession.

 

[Cowboy DO]

bobo, you are a the definition of why these threads turn to crap. Nice job with the constructive comment.

Sus4n, I dont think hes saying we shouldnt complain hes just saying if you are going to complain do it right, and I for one agree w/ him. We dont need threads titled "Heres why you shouldnt go to a DO school" just to talk about high tuition. For god sake call the thread "We pay to much for our education" or the ever popular " $35,000? I'll tell you wherer you can put $35,000"

Adapt, I'm with you on this one. Of all the posters I agree with you the most, others do have many good points though. I just don't want you to think you're alone on this. I guess i'm in the position of not knowing what to do. Firstly I think things are dandy, I really like my school, I'm getting a good education, I hear our rotations are excellent, and we match well. I think new schools are a good thing up to a point, i only wish there were more affiliated w/ state institutions. The only problem I rally have is the current situation with Osteopathic GME, and i dont even think thats too bad, but deffinetly not up to par.

Is my school getting a lot of money, from us? you bet. I heard that half of our tuition goes straight to NYIT and we (NYCOM) doesnt ever see it. Either way I dont feel we are being robbed (or raped). People are definitely making a decent living fof us, as they should, they are making us doctors and after which we will be living well too, they deserve that much.

Could it be less? definitely. and thats why I like discussions like this, its good to get people thinking and change has to start somewhere. Only positive should come out of this. But often negative follows, i.e. bobo's comment and the general view of outsiders or pre-meds who walk away with the misconception that things are way worse than they are in actuality. Which is why it is imparative that conversations like these be conducted professionally, with well thought out responses.

With that said, what do you suppose we could do? I charge someone to think of something because I can't.

Ok enough of my incoherent rambling.

 

[Su4n2]

Ok, you want to know what I think they could do:
i am not complaining about the tuition b/c i think that it's on par with the other private schools, i just want to see it used better. specifically for NYCOM:

with the 36 million

instead of giving it to NYIT, allied health programs, outrageous salaries for chairmen who don;t do that much and still have private practices...

1. research - lets funnel some of that money into research and not just little studies that Dr.C does- large scale OMM studies, neuro, etc

2. clinic- our clinic is pathetic (i have been both a patient and observer). why not make it a bigger center for MSK medicine- one of a kind on LI. They have the people, they could just use more resources
3. and finally - i think it should use our money to attract physicians who are on top of their field with research experience etc and pay them accordingly.

- all in all i think that NYCOM is a great school that will give a great education. Same can be said for osteopathic medicine.

 

[Cowboy DO]

I think those are actually some top notch ideas, especially the research one. The question is now, how do we as students get that to happen? Its our money we should have final say but we dont. The same thing can be applied to NSUCOM's outrageous attendance pollicy, all the students hate it, its "their" school, but I doubt it will change unless all the students walk out or something. Now theres an idea we could strike.

All I wanna know is who's coming with me...

 

[governator]

most of the complaints are not because DO education is bad, infact almost everyone agrees that it is excellent. It is the administrative/business side of the DO that pisses a lot of us. If you're willing to pay $ 35000 for something that cost much less than that, that's your choice. I'm a little curious of where my investment go to.(MD school doing the same thing...... i don't care, i'm a DO student, not an MD student). As far as new school opening up.......... the resources should have been put into getting more quality DO RESIDENCIES for DO graduates up and running. I can't help but think that the main reason to open up these new schools are mainly for profit.
Anyway, everybody is entitled to their opinion but don't bash DO students who voiced their opinions to try to better our profession.

 

[Adapt]

bobo, you are a the definition of why these threads turn to crap. Nice job with the constructive comment.

Sus4n, I dont think hes saying we shouldnt complain hes just saying if you are going to complain do it right, and I for one agree w/ him. We dont need threads titled "Heres why you shouldnt go to a DO school" just to talk about high tuition. For god sake call the thread "We pay to much for our education" or the ever popular " $35,000? I'll tell you wherer you can put $35,000"

Adapt, I'm with you on this one. Of all the posters I agree with you the most, others do have many good points though. I just don't want you to think you're alone on this. I guess i'm in the position of not knowing what to do. Firstly I think things are dandy, I really like my school, I'm getting a good education, I hear our rotations are excellent, and we match well. I think new schools are a good thing up to a point, i only wish there were more affiliated w/ state institutions. The only problem I rally have is the current situation with Osteopathic GME, and i dont even think thats too bad, but deffinetly not up to par.

Is my school getting a lot of money, from us? you bet. I heard that half of our tuition goes straight to NYIT and we (NYCOM) doesnt ever see it. Either way I dont feel we are being robbed (or raped). People are definitely making a decent living fof us, as they should, they are making us doctors and after which we will be living well too, they deserve that much.

Could it be less? definitely. and thats why I like discussions like this, its good to get people thinking and change has to start somewhere. Only positive should come out of this. But often negative follows, i.e. bobo's comment and the general view of outsiders or pre-meds who walk away with the misconception that things are way worse than they are in actuality. Which is why it is imparative that conversations like these be conducted professionally, with well thought out responses.

With that said, what do you suppose we could do? I charge someone to think of something because I can't.

Ok enough of my incoherent rambling.

Cowboy DO thank you for agreeing with me.

Su4n2, this post is not even about whether I'm going to be a DO or MD. This post is about watching what we say in order to prevent premeds to get a negative impression of DOs.

If you don't like my posts you don't have to read them buddy. As I said before, complain all you want but at least do it in a constructive way. As a premed student looking in, the DO route sure starts to look less appealing.

 

[Su4n2]

Cowboy, i am coming. BUT i have spoken to a few people - mostly FP doctors who teach our FP course. they are all very frustrated w/NYCOM and the fact that it's mass producing physicians and flooding the market, but all them have told me that we will never know where the money goes. not sure where to go from here.
are u involved in student govmt?

 

[drvlad2004]

Ok, you want to know what I think they could do:
i am not complaining about the tuition b/c i think that it's on par with the other private schools, i just want to see it used better. specifically for NYCOM:

with the 36 million

instead of giving it to NYIT, allied health programs, outrageous salaries for chairmen who don;t do that much and still have private practices...

1. research - lets funnel some of that money into research and not just little studies that Dr.C does- large scale OMM studies, neuro, etc

2. clinic- our clinic is pathetic (i have been both a patient and observer). why not make it a bigger center for MSK medicine- one of a kind on LI. They have the people, they could just use more resources
3. and finally - i think it should use our money to attract physicians who are on top of their field with research experience etc and pay them accordingly.

- all in all i think that NYCOM is a great school that will give a great education. Same can be said for osteopathic medicine.

I also think that our clinic is very pathetic. We have all those OMM profs in the clinic basically just running their private practice. The problem is that none of them are doing research with all the time that they have. Our dean, Dr. Ross-Lee has also complained of that. The only meaningful research that I have been at NYCOM has to do with Parkinson's disease.

The clinical education is good and not great at schools like NYCOM (the inconsistencies of clinical rotations keeps it being great). With the sudden increase of DO schools, the high enrollment of students per year (e.g. 300 students/yr at NYCOM!), and the decrease of quality of osteopathic residencies, we are watering down the profession. Slickness/Adapt, you are only a premed and you may not see it now, but you will figure out very fast when you decide to do FP at COMP. Not everything can be roses and daisies with the situation of the AOA as you seem to like it to be. The AOA has always done a good job but when it comes to GME, we really suck.

 

[Adapt]

To all you current DO students who have qualms about particular parts of their education, I pose this question to you:

Knowing what you do now, if you had to do it over again, would you still go to a DO school? If not would you have reapplied to an MD school or even taken the caribbean route in order to avoid the problems that seem to be rampant in the osteopathic profession?

 

[Su4n2]

Vlad,
1. i heard that the parkinsons research was no longer going on b/c the guy who was running it left.
2. can you ellaborate on the clinical inconsistencies

 

[drusso]

I'd just like to encourage those of you who are posting to remain active in reforming *YOUR* profession. It's one thing to identify problems; it's another thing to actually try to do something about it. AACOM, AOA, Deans and school administrations, etc need to hear about your concerns and issues. SOMA is the voice of osteopathic students--how many of you are members? SOMA presents resolutions to the AOA House of Delegates on an annual basis--how about a resolution calling for the AOA to evaluate student loan indebtedness, return on investment, and tuition practices at COM's? Don't underestimate the power of grassroots action. Just to clarify a few misconceptions:

1) The AOA can do nothing about opening up new schools. They can, however, tighten the requirements for opening up new schools, or enourage policies that promote opening university-affiliated osteopathic schools.

2) Osteopathic medical education has sort of evolved along a different line compared to allopathic medical education. This has resulted in pluses and minuses. On the plus side, osteopathic medical education "read the tea leaves" correctly in terms of predicting a need for primary care physicians and rural medicine from the 1960's-1990's. This was "golden era" of osteopathic expansion. Now, things are changing. There is a predicted need for specialists. Will osteopathic medicine adapt?

Here is a great article titled, "How Private Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine Reinvented Themselves." I hope those who are posting will take the time to read it.

3) Changing the culture takes time. Younger DO's tend to hold a more progressive view of osteopathy's role as a social movement than older DO's. Older DO's tend to be more conservative and isolationist in nature. The age pyramid in the osteopathic profession resembles a third world country with a booming birthrate! What does this mean? It means that as older "country-clubbish" DO's retire and die, younger DO's will assume leadership positions in the profession. These younger DO's, many of whom will have trained in larger university-affiliated residency programs, will have a clearer sense of direction in how to steer the profession. Osteopathic medicine indeed has a lot to offer. Like most things in life, it's potential rests in the hands of the future generation of DO's.

 

[Cowboy DO]

Great post Dr. Russo.

I think what makes this the worst is that, the worries we are now encountering seem to be rather large ones (Crazy tuition, the possibility that these new schools are just money mills, Poor DO GME, and terrible public awareness. To name a few) and they all have seemingly simple solutions. Yet nothing is being done. In fact I feel I stay up with current events, probably not as much as I should (I read the DO, JAOA, and visit the website, but hey I have to study too), and the AOA or whatever other governing bodies we have barely if at all even mention these issues let alone possible solutions. Correct me if I?m wrong.

 

[drvlad2004]

Vlad,
1. i heard that the parkinsons research was no longer going on b/c the guy who was running it left.
2. can you ellaborate on the clinical inconsistencies

1. That's sad that the neurologist left. He is a well-regarded guy within the neurology world. He is working in both the east and west coast at the same time. I actually ended up loving his neurology course a whole lot. Learning neurology is one of many reasons why I love PM&R.

2. I'll try to keep this one short. Although we have a great amount of clinical rotation to choose from at NYCOM, the quality of the rotations at the different sites can vary greatly since the school (I must admit it) is very disorganized. For example, you are doing an OB/GYN rotation at North Shore-Forrest Hills and your friend is doing one at Wyckoff. The level of teaching will probably differ but the problem comes along with following the supposed objectives of the rotation, which some of these hospitals do not. Since the hospitals only volunteer their services to the school and there is very little regulation by NYCOM clinical education, in terms of knowing what we are actually learning and doing at the hospitals, the quality of overall education at some of these sites are inconsistent. From the stories that I have heard, OB/GYN at Forrest Hills is a total joke compared to Wyckoff. I guess that is why you hear that we have a lot of good rotations but there are just as many that are mediocre. That is what happens when the objectives of rotations are not fully met by both school and hospital.

I have seen schools like Stony Brook do a better job in trying to make the quality of each rotation as consistent as they can, regardless of which hospital that they are at. I just had to be blunt about this issue.

 

[drvlad2004]

Changing the culture takes time. Younger DO's tend to hold a more progressive view of osteopathy's role as a social movement than older DO's. Older DO's tend to be more conservative and isolationist in nature. The age pyramid in the osteopathic profession resembles a third world country with a booming birthrate! What does this mean? It means that as older "country-clubbish" DO's retire and die, younger DO's will assume leadership positions in the profession. These younger DO's, many of whom will have trained in larger university-affiliated residency programs, will have a clearer sense of direction in how to steer the profession. Osteopathic medicine indeed has a lot to offer. Like most things in life, it's potential rests in the hands of the future generation of DO's.

Drusso, once again you sunmed it up well. I really do feel that it is the old school DO idealogies vs. us newer and more progressive era of DOs. BTW, on your current sticky post, you have to pay for most of those articles. I did read the free ones and found them to be very very useful info, especially Gevitz's article.

What I definitely see is our profession's lack of commitment to scholarly activity and overemphasis on clinical education, which is troublesome. Coming from an undergraduate university with high devotion to research, I am a bit disappointed by osteopathy's seeming disregard for research. Research helps validate and help guide our approach to thinking about medicine. To hear that Dr. Sutherland created cranial OMM through doing nonsense research by practicing on his own head is a too ridiculous. I totally forgot about the Flexnor report. Since the Flexnor report, I do notice that DO schools haven't quite fulfilled those expectations like allopathic programs have.

 

[ResidentEvil]

Thanks for the input drrusso, unfortunately I could not look up that aritcle you linked... could you cut and paste it?

*especially since I was the one that stirred the pot*

For Adapt-

Listen, bub (as Wolverine would say)...
I am proud I'm a DO. You asked if I woudl go back and choose DO school? Well, loaded question. I might go to law school instead, and do med mal defense work. I am also frustrated (more so than the DO schools "raping us") with the current medical malpractice system in place. And YES I am actively involved in changing that. I met with state representatives in person two months ago and sat down with them talking about options for reform. I am not one to just post apathetically on the internet.

So, I might have gone to DO school. I definately would have given it a shot to try to apply to MD schools (since my premed advisor told me it was a waste of time). I often tell pre-med students who are thinkng of where to go to use two criteria: Location and cost. In the end, it doesn't matter whree you go to school. But ten years down the road, it will matter in regards to your student loans. Also, would you want to go to medical school in Wyoming or a fun city like Miami, Tampa, NY, Chicago? Those are the criteria I woudl choose. Note that I didn't say MD or DO.

I stand my my statement (paraphrasing myself) that the DO schools will take anyone, because pre-meds are desperate enough to go anywhere. Remember my post about pre-meds and how we all said at one point "I just want to get into medical school, I WILL PROVE TO THEM I'M THE BEST, I will study every day! Just let me in!" Do you remember that desperation? You probably do, since you're a pre-med. Most of us have forgotten. I know i have, it has been 5+ years since I was a pre-med. If you dont' take that spot, someone else sure will, I gay-ron-tee it.

And the medical schools will be happy. They'll get the tuition they want. Because, well, that's all they want. Someone witha paycheck and a pulse.


RE

 

[Adapt]

So, I might have gone to DO school. I definately would have given it a shot to try to apply to MD schools (since my premed advisor told me it was a waste of time). I often tell pre-med students who are thinkng of where to go to use two criteria: Location and cost. In the end, it doesn't matter whree you go to school. But ten years down the road, it will matter in regards to your student loans. Also, would you want to go to medical school in Wyoming or a fun city like Miami, Tampa, NY, Chicago? Those are the criteria I woudl choose. Note that I didn't say MD or DO.

Well I at least agree with you here. Premeds should choose a school based on location and cost without regards to MD or DO.

If this is true, there really was no need to title your thread, "Why you shouldn't go to a DO school." After all, caribbean and private MD schools are much the same as private DO schools business wise. Just because private MD schools may be more selective does not make what they do right any more than what you accused the DO schools of doing.

 

[(nicedream)]

I stand my my statement (paraphrasing myself) that the DO schools will take anyone, because pre-meds are desperate enough to go anywhere.

That's just not true. DO schools are less selective than MD schools, but you still have to be a better than average student. I think many people that go into the medical field live in their own bubble where everyone gets at least a 3.0 and a 20 on the MCAT. Do you have any idea how many people in college have 2.0 GPA's and wouldn't be able to break 15 on the MCAT??? The vast vast majority. C is an average grade for a reason - and it won't get you into medical school, be it DO or MD. Carribbean, that's a different story. But don't debase the accomplishments of those attending DO schools - they are not "anyone with a pulse and a paycheck."

 

[drvlad2004]

Well I at least agree with you here. Premeds should choose a school based on location and cost without regards to MD or DO.

If this is true, there really was no need to title your thread, "Why you shouldn't go to a DO school." After all, caribbean and private MD schools are much the same as private DO schools business wise. Just because private MD schools may be more selective does not make what they do right any more than what you accused the DO schools of doing.

Adapt/Slickness,

I think you missed the point of ResidentEvil's thread. US Private MD schools are not same as DO schools, business wise. The carribean is another story on its own. Being selective is a different story which has other variable. If you read some of the articles that were posted by Drusso and other posters, the osteopathic business model is very different since the GME sucks and scholarly activity has been limited. Factors like these warrants observation when looking into this profession. I think that things will end up being fine but you can't assume that if you keep your mouth shut and remain naive.

 

[drusso]

This link should be free: Click on Full Text

How Private Colleges of Osteopathic Reinvented Themselves

 

[DireWolf]

This link should be free: Click on Full Text

How Private Colleges of Osteopathic Reinvented Themselves

What I basically got out of the article is that DO schools are opening up with full intent on making money and only focusing on the first two years of medical school education. Then they can ship their students out to community hospital affiliates all over the state/country for 3rd-4th year rotations. Then they leave it up to the ACMGE to allow their students to mooch off of ACGME residency programs.

Great article! It confirms what many of us have known all along. 👍

 

[oceandocDO]

Then they leave it up to the ACMGE to allow their students to mooch off of ACGME residency programs.

I think "mooch" is a bad choice of words, as many ACGME programs actively recruit DOs into their programs. I would be hard pressed to find a single MD program affiliated with a state school that doesn't have a few DOs within their resident roster. A largely underrated fact is that ACGME programs can still sign DOs out of the match, whereas they cant sign MDs out of the match, hence these programs put alot of pressure on DOs who rotate at their institutions to sign. Why? Because DOs make good docs and there are hundreds of ACGME programs that go unfilled every year. It may not be Derm at Hopkins, but assuring you have a full class is going to be very important in the coming years, as the ACGME is going to start removing the accreditation from any program that does not fill a minimum percentage of their positions.

 

[dollarbincommon]

This link should be free: Click on Full Text

How Private Colleges of Osteopathic Reinvented Themselves

Only the abstract is free. But the rest you have to pay. 🙁

Anyways, I have a question about VCOM only. Isn't VCOM located in an underserviced area?

 

[Adapt]

The following quote was written in a thread in the pre-MD forum. This is the danger of representing the DO profession in a negative light. You scare away potential applicants.

I have been out of college since 1999, but I didnt do that well when I was there, mainly because I was lazy. My GPA is around 2.7. Does anyone know the best strategy to get into MD school with this GPA? I plan on taking the premed courses at a university in a non-formal postbac program, possibly completing a second bachelors in something like Biology, and maybe doing a masters in biomedical science. Do you think getting through this with a strong GPA will compensate for my poor GPA the first time around? I was thinking of the DO route but on the message board there is a lot of general unhappiness with the way the DO profession is run. Thanks

 

[(nicedream)]

The following quote was written in a thread in the pre-MD forum. This is the danger of representing the DO profession in a negative light. You scare away potential applicants.

You're right Adapt, but you know what? These guys would probably be happy if less people were interested in becoming an osteopathic physician.

 

[daelroy]

To Adapt

On the flipside, there is also another group of students which I affectionately refer to as the HOMERS. These are the students that can see no wrong when it comes to the osteopathic world. Everything is fine. They will even lie and embellish facts that try to equate DO's and MD's in every possible way.

I agree that complaining without action is wrong. There are many DO's that will just be bitter and do nothing to raise the standard of osteopathic education. There is also a significant number of people that think nothing is wrong with osteopathic education and gloss over the negatives. These people are not only lying to you; they are lying to themselves. Osteopathic education has a lot to be desired. I chose DO over MD but I will see to it when I graduate that certain changes are made. For one thing, the AOA needs to open more residencies particularly in specialties and focus less on opening new schools.

The reality is that there you have extremists on both sides. You have homers and haters. In the middle, you have the common sense crowd who can admit weaknesses about osteopathic education but can also enlighten others about the many positive aspects to osteopathic education.

 

[Adapt]

You're right Adapt, but you know what? These guys would probably be happy if less people were interested in becoming an osteopathic physician.

Yea, who knows...

Daelroy, I think I am in the middle and not on any extreme. I don't lie about how the profession is. I know it is more difficult to specialize as a DO than an MD. I know that the osteopathic GME sucks. I know that tuition is skyrocketing like crazy.

The difference is I don't sit and complain about how bad the DO situation is. I choose to focus on the positives of it because frankly I don't want to be in a profession surrounded by disgruntled people who think the profession is going to the crapper. I don't think it is. On the contrary I see things getting brighter and better for the osteopathic profession.

There are optimists and pessimists in this world. Just because I'm an optimist does not mean I realize the weaknesses of the profession.

 

[drdrtoledo]

This is the danger of representing the DO profession in a negative light. You scare away potential applicants.

He will find the same general unhappiness in any profession, subspecialty, or medical school he attends. The unhappiness stems from policies we want change. If we do not discuss these things then we are lying to ourselves and any future applicants. Being upset about tuition, GME, and institution expenditures is something he better be ready to face anywhere he goes.

 

[VentdependenT]

What I basically got out of the article is that DO schools are opening up with full intent on making money and only focusing on the first two years of medical school education. Then they can ship their students out to community hospital affiliates all over the state/country for 3rd-4th year rotations. Then they leave it up to the ACMGE to allow their students to mooch off of ACGME residency programs.

Great article! It confirms what many of us have known all along. 👍

You hit the nail on the head buddy.

Just to throw a positive spin on things, for those students who want an outstanding education it can be done. I chose my rotations carefully with the idea that someday I'll have people's lives in my hands as an idiot intern. I worked very hard at landing good rotations for 3rd and 4th year. I did it all on my own and I can honestly say I'm at least up to par with any other student out there. All I can say is plan ahead, smoke your boards, and get yourself into a good residency.

As a medical student, even if you did sub-i's in IM (as I did), you still don't know jack squat till you get through that intern year. So get yourself a good residency, as this will determine what type of physician you will become....of course it ultimately depends on one's own level of motivation.

Nothing is handed to ya.