A warning to all my North American friends considering UK & Ireland..

[medisforme]

Very interesting thread, I have been accepted to UCD though am quite nervous of the thought of:

a) Being away from Canada for many years if I don't get a canadian residency (I am 100% positive I want to practice medicine in Canada as a career).

b) Living in but&^%$ nowhere in the US (less concerned about having to do this in Canada though) at some malignant residency program that caters to IMG's and views residents merely as warm bodies to care for patients (obviously this is a worst case scenerio unlikely to happen but certain elements of this could definitely be possible at programs I would be applying at).

c) Moving my family/disrupting their life (live common-law with partner's son). It seems (is) selfish to uproot the lives of others to pursue my goals/dreams especially when they are so established with work and school here.

Does anyone know if that UBC report on increasing residency spots for IMG's applies only to BC residents or is it open to IMG's in general? The report gives the impression it is just for BC residents (which would obviously be much less competitive) though doesn't really state so explicitly. though as someone already mentioned, these increased seats are merely a drop in the bucket compared to the total number of IMG's looking for a residency.

I am 99.9% certain I would be applying for family medicine and psychiatry residencies (which are essentially the easiest (only) residencies to get as an IMG). I know med students and residents have posted dozens of times on this sight that you never know what you want to train in until you do rotations, but having been a registered nurse for 6 years I have a good idea. I have worked in general surgery, ortho, and psychiatry and have seen up close the job descriptions of surgeons (all specialties), anaesthegeologists, family physcians and psychiatrists. My interest in these two specialties is what is making me consider going the IMG route as I would be applying at the least competitive residencies. Conversely, from reading some threads here it seems like many IMG's apply to FM and psychiatry by default which would make them as competitive as many other residencies.

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[jf1987]

Very interesting thread, I have been accepted to UCD though am quite nervous of the thought of:

a) Being away from Canada for many years if I don't get a canadian residency (I am 100% positive I want to practice medicine in Canada as a career).

b) Living in but&^%$ nowhere in the US (less concerned about having to do this in Canada though) at some malignant residency program that caters to IMG's and views residents merely as warm bodies to care for patients (obviously this is a worst case scenerio unlikely to happen but certain elements of this could definitely be possible at programs I would be applying at).

c) Moving my family/disrupting their life (live common-law with partner's son). It seems (is) selfish to uproot the lives of others to pursue my goals/dreams especially when they are so established with work and school here.

Does anyone know if that UBC report on increasing residency spots for IMG's applies only to BC residents or is it open to IMG's in general? The report gives the impression it is just for BC residents (which would obviously be much less competitive) though doesn't really state so explicitly. though as someone already mentioned, these increased seats are merely a drop in the bucket compared to the total number of IMG's looking for a residency.

I am 99.9% certain I would be applying for family medicine and psychiatry residencies (which are essentially the easiest (only) residencies to get as an IMG). I know med students and residents have posted dozens of times on this sight that you never know what you want to train in until you do rotations, but having been a registered nurse for 6 years I have a good idea. I have worked in general surgery, ortho, and psychiatry and have seen up close the job descriptions of surgeons (all specialties), anaesthegeologists, family physcians and psychiatrists. My interest in these two specialties is what is making me consider going the IMG route as I would be applying at the least competitive residencies. Conversely, from reading some threads here it seems like many IMG's apply to FM and psychiatry by default which would make them as competitive as many other residencies.

It says that you have to have been a permanent resident of BC for one year. I am from BC too and it will definitely help. Conveniently they are coming online just about when we are graduating as well.

Source: http://imgbc.med.ubc.ca/imgbc-eligibility-criteria/

 

[Domenech]

I don't understand why would Americans want to attend a foreign medical school? Your medical education is top-ranked, both med school and GME, in the world so why would anyone pursue a degree in UK?

 

[Medstart108]

lol hope this is not a joke..

Let me give you a bit of advice kid and take my words very seriously.

1) You have no idea in the world what specialty you want to do. Your first choice ir surgery? Wait until you've done enough rotations working 70-100 hour weeks doing nonstop call before you decide to dedicate your life to it. More so, once you actually do rotations your interests will drastically change... so forget about specialty choices right now.

2) I know people with low-mid 80s in high school who are destroying university right now with >3.8 GPAs and I know people with mid-high 90s in high school who are getting 2.7-3.0s. Forget high school marks dude... if you understand the material, then youre fine. Your average could be 85 and you might end up killing your friends' GPAs in uni... so dont even let that be a factor.

3) Having some random ECs including lots of volunteering wont make you stand out in the EC department. You need to have all that, have research, be a top athlete/artist, have some awards, have a good story, have other types of ECs, AND have a high mcat/high gpa and make sure everything else in your app. is very strong too (ref letters, essay, etc.). Oh and be socially skilled and kill the interview. The people you know who got rejected from med didnt have one (or more) of these things. Or they didnt apply to enough places...

Thanks for the advice.

 

[Killer T Cell]

I don't understand why would Americans want to attend a foreign medical school? Your medical education is top-ranked, both med school and GME, in the world so why would anyone pursue a degree in UK?

I can't answer on behalf of every single American studying in England. As for my own reasons, I have already mentioned it in this thread before. I also know a few Americans who come here after high school to save time. And there are others who came to the UK & Ireland after trying for 1 or 2 rounds in America without success, albeit most of them applied to just MD schools back home.

 

[druggeek]

May I ask what was your path or your plan to get into residency?

Regarding your second point, Canadian high school grades vary widely. Some people with mid to high 90s may have gotten some of their grades at credit mills or have a easy school. Many students who may have slacked off during high school would get an 80 average but once they start studying and working their grades shoot up. The general consensus is that Canadian medical schools are very hard to get into. Only 20% of applicants from Ontario make it to medical school in Canada. It is 50% in the U.S. This is the reason I am thinking of going to medical school in the UK. I understand I am taking a risk but what better option is there? I used to go to an academically competitive private school where a good 60% of students wanted to go to an Ivy League School. As a result, competition for grades, for leadership positions in clubs and awards was incredibly fierce. I believe that will be the experience I have if I go to a Canadian university.

Regarding your first point I agree. I have only spent a bit of time in the critical care unit and I have still a limited understanding of what each specialty is like. But fundamentally, I am on the introverted side and would probably not do well as a family doctor communicating with long term patients. I understand my 1st choice of specialty will change for sure, but I do want to keep my options open. In case I decide I love a more competitive specialty I don't really want to be forced to dedicate my career to a specialty I don't enjoy.

Regarding your third point I am not sure if you are talking about applying to a Canadian medical school or applying to residency as an IMG. Either way, opportunities for high school students are limited. I explained my extracurriculars to show that I am definitely looking to expand my E.Cs in university. Again, I probably won't be successful but I am willing to try my best to have the best resume when applying.

Anyways another question I have is, what is the process of applying for CaRMS? I know that you need to have 3 letters of references from Canadian doctors. If I go to St. Andrews I hope to get these references during my FoMD attachment. Otherwise, does CaRMS consider your university (for example if you go to Oxford or Edinburgh vs a Carribbean school), your grades (if so do they take your best 2 years or do they look at all 6 years of university), your resume (do they care more about some activities than others?), and your age (is being young a disadvantage?). Lastly, is there an interview when you apply to CaRMS? Thanks.

I'm not going to get into what I've had or bring to the table, but I was a top 10 national athlete so I had something to make me stand out in general.
My point about high school was forget your grades. It is foolish to base your chances off of comparing yourself to others in high school.

My suggestion: Go to the easiest university and kill it there. Get a >3.9. Study a crap load for the MCAT, kill that too. Do as many ECs as possible, do everything else right, and at least by your 2nd cycle you'll have a great shot. Forget Uoft, forget queens, mac, western. You can do the easiest/crappiest program or the most prestigious program. But no amount of prestige will make up for even a TINY difference in your applications (if all else equal).

Private high schools are useless. Your time in high school should be spent playing sports, chasing chicks (if youre a guy), messing around, getting drunks, smoking some weed, etc etc having fun... and just paying attention in class grades 9-11. Grade 12 you should probably ramp it up and get some high 80s and 90s. I have seen people who did just this (public schools) be more successful than people who were hardcore at private schools, in university... why? cause after being held down for so long, you finally let it all out in uni... then guess what happens to your gpa?

You can find the general process of applying for carms online, but it isnt too highly relevant. You will have to do an interview and that will be a HUGE factor in you getting the position. Some programs look at clinical grades (many will not), and most programs consider it a small factor only. Your matching will be based on:

1) doing a rotation at that place (very very hard to do if youre an IMG)

2) Your ECs dont matter (maybe supplementary) except for research (which matters a lot). Unless of course you were an olympic prospect.

3) reference letters

What school you went to depends on if the program director. Reality is, PDs will look at an IMG as being inferior and will think you werent good enough to match in Canada. Theres even bias against american grads due to a slightly (very slight) different system! As of now, the carribean has the highest rep (big 4 schools, SGU being first) among IMGs given the quality of thier rotations. It is not about the prestige but rather the system. If you have done no roations in Canada, you don't know how it works. simple as that. An american obviously will have a very strong idea (same as a carribean grad) but not so much different IMGs.

 

[druggeek]

I can't answer on behalf of every single American studying in England. As for my own reasons, I have already mentioned it in this thread before. I also know a few Americans who come here after high school to save time. And there are others who came to the UK & Ireland after trying for 1 or 2 rounds in America without success, albeit most of them applied to just MD schools back home.

extremely idiotic to go IMG over DO. just ridiculous.

 

[whiteanenome]

extremely idiotic to go IMG over DO. just ridiculous.

Not everyone wants to work exclusively in America... A DO degree might not be recognized/accepted internationally.

 

[Killer T Cell]

extremely idiotic to go IMG over DO. just ridiculous.

As of now, the carribean has the highest rep (big 4 schools, SGU being first) among IMGs given the quality of thier rotations. It is not about the prestige but rather the system. If you have done no roations in Canada, you don't know how it works. simple as that. An american obviously will have a very strong idea (same as a carribean grad) but not so much different IMGs.

I completely agree with you...100%!! If you want to work in America the hierarchy is as follows American/Canadian MDs>DOs>Big 4 Caribbean>UK & Ireland>All the rest in different orders

But you wouldn't believe how many people drink this 'prestige'/'world university ranking' kool-aid! Like you said, most PDs care about hands on clinical experience in America/Canada much much more than they care about prestige. It's all about the system. The medical system is quite different in Ireland and UK and all we get are 2-3 months to go over there and do electives!! PDs want candidates who will make smooth transitions as interns and know the roles and responsibilities of a 'north american intern' like the back of their hand. So yeah...2 years>>>>>>2-3 months!

A candidate identical to me from SGU or Ross with 2 years of US Clinical experience would have absolutely destroyed me in the match! For all the disrespect that the Caribbeans get in this part of SDN, I think the top 4 schools are solid and will continue to produce strong candidates who can compete against their European counterparts. They also have a much much larger alumni network in North America..many of whom are attendings at really good hospitals and climbing up the hierarchical ladder quite quickly.

During my electives, I met many Caribbean graduates who were amazing residents and awesome human beings in general. They went above and beyond their call of duty to help me learn the ropes and orient me to the American system. A lot of my success in the match, I owe it to them! I just think that a lot of people here write off all Caribbean graduates as incompetent physicians and don't give them the credit and recognition that they often deserve. Just my 2 cents.

 

[druggeek]

Not everyone wants to work exclusively in America... A DO degree might not be recognized/accepted internationally.

Most canadians/americans want to work in north america after med.

I completely agree with you...100%!! If you want to work in America the hierarchy is as follows American/Canadian MDs>DOs>Big 4 Caribbean>UK & Ireland>All the rest in different orders

But you wouldn't believe how many people drink this 'prestige'/'world university ranking' kool-aid! Like you said, most PDs care about hands on clinical experience in America/Canada much much more than they care about prestige. It's all about the system. The medical system is quite different in Ireland and UK and all we get are 2-3 months to go over there and do electives!! PDs want candidates who will make smooth transitions as interns and know the roles and responsibilities of a 'north american intern' like the back of their hand. So yeah...2 years>>>>>>2-3 months!

A candidate identical to me from SGU or Ross with 2 years of US Clinical experience would have absolutely destroyed me in the match! For all the disrespect that the Caribbeans get in this part of SDN, I think the top 4 schools are solid and will continue to produce strong candidates who can compete against their European counterparts. They also have a much much larger alumni network in North America..many of whom are attendings at really good hospitals and climbing up the hierarchical ladder quite quickly.

During my electives, I met many Caribbean graduates who were amazing residents and awesome human beings in general. They went above and beyond their call of duty to help me learn the ropes and orient me to the American system. A lot of my success in the match, I owe it to them! I just think that a lot of people here write off all Caribbean graduates as incompetent physicians and don't give them the credit and recognition that they often deserve. Just my 2 cents.

Ya you summed it up quite nicely.
The bias towards carribean grads is because literally anyone with a degree can get into a carribean med school. With that exists the possibility of them squeeking through (even if very unlikely) to become a low quality doctor. I'm talking about people who got through 4 years of undergrad by copying other people's labs/assignments and going through tons of past tests only to get a <3.0 GPA. These people more than likely arent book smart enough to become even an average doctor.

The people from the carribean you met who were good were those who had strong undergrads but just didnt apply to enough places/were slightly off edge (aka WERE good enough, but just got a bit of bad luck + maybe some weaker part of their app). A lot of those people would be as good as your average american MD since logically they are about the same level of intelligence.

 

[Medstart108]

I'm not going to get into what I've had or bring to the table, but I was a top 10 national athlete so I had something to make me stand out in general.
My point about high school was forget your grades. It is foolish to base your chances off of comparing yourself to others in high school.

My suggestion: Go to the easiest university and kill it there. Get a >3.9. Study a crap load for the MCAT, kill that too. Do as many ECs as possible, do everything else right, and at least by your 2nd cycle you'll have a great shot. Forget Uoft, forget queens, mac, western. You can do the easiest/crappiest program or the most prestigious program. But no amount of prestige will make up for even a TINY difference in your applications (if all else equal).

Private high schools are useless. Your time in high school should be spent playing sports, chasing chicks (if youre a guy), messing around, getting drunks, smoking some weed, etc etc having fun... and just paying attention in class grades 9-11. Grade 12 you should probably ramp it up and get some high 80s and 90s. I have seen people who did just this (public schools) be more successful than people who were hardcore at private schools, in university... why? cause after being held down for so long, you finally let it all out in uni... then guess what happens to your gpa?

You can find the general process of applying for carms online, but it isnt too highly relevant. You will have to do an interview and that will be a HUGE factor in you getting the position. Some programs look at clinical grades (many will not), and most programs consider it a small factor only. Your matching will be based on:

1) doing a rotation at that place (very very hard to do if youre an IMG)

2) Your ECs dont matter (maybe supplementary) except for research (which matters a lot). Unless of course you were an olympic prospect.

3) reference letters

What school you went to depends on if the program director. Reality is, PDs will look at an IMG as being inferior and will think you werent good enough to match in Canada. Theres even bias against american grads due to a slightly (very slight) different system! As of now, the carribean has the highest rep (big 4 schools, SGU being first) among IMGs given the quality of thier rotations. It is not about the prestige but rather the system. If you have done no roations in Canada, you don't know how it works. simple as that. An american obviously will have a very strong idea (same as a carribean grad) but not so much different IMGs.

Thanks

 

[Alexander III]

What if they know I am a high school student that went straight to the UK to do their medicine. That would mean I've never tried to apply to medical school in Canada. Would that affect how they view me as an IMG? Also, from pretty much everything I heard, Caribbean schools even SGU are not very prestigious at all. UK, Irish and Australian schools are held in much higher regard because Caribbean schools are for profit whereas many of the UK, Irish and Australian schools are well established. Lastly, in the program I am applying to I will be doing a rotation in Canada, at the University of Alberta for 4 months. Would that benefit me when compared to other IMGs who have not done that?

Generally in the US the Caribbean schools are a little better than the rest because a lot of them are specifically associated with residency programs and teaching hospitals in the states. Some of them even have opportunities to do your 3rd and 4th year of medical school in mainland US which pretty much guarantees you a residency spot in the states. In Canada, the Irish schools are by far the most prestigious and more well known (All of them except one have been training docs since well before Canada was even a country lol). To put it in perspective, when I told my non-science friends about getting into RCSI, most of them didn't even have to ask what city it was in because they already knew.

A rotation in Canada would be very helpful for your application but, make sure you work very hard and make a good impression so that they will write you a good reference letter for carms.

Lastly, make sure you take everything you read on the forums with a grain of salt, a lot of people know what they are talking about and post good information but, views and opinions can be very extreme. There are 3,500 Canadians studying medicine abroad according to carms latest report, so when people post that only idiots would go the IMG route, they clearly represent a very extreme view because 3,500 Canadians would not go the IMG route if it was impossible to get back in. If you work your nuts off in medical school and build a solid application then you will be able to come back to Canada (probably not with your top choice of residency but only 80% of CMGs get into one of their top 3 choices anyway, so its part of the profession)

 

[jf1987]

generally in the us the caribbean schools are a little better than the rest because a lot of them are specifically associated with residency programs and teaching hospitals in the states. Some of them even have opportunities to do your 3rd and 4th year of medical school in mainland us which pretty much guarantees you a residency spot in the states. In canada, the irish schools are by far the most prestigious and more well known (all of them except one have been training docs since well before canada was even a country lol). To put it in perspective, when i told my non-science friends about getting into rcsi, most of them didn't even have to ask what city it was in because they already knew.

A rotation in canada would be very helpful for your application but, make sure you work very hard and make a good impression so that they will write you a good reference letter for carms.

Lastly, make sure you take everything you read on the forums with a grain of salt, a lot of people know what they are talking about and post good information but, views and opinions can be very extreme. There are 3,500 canadians studying medicine abroad according to carms latest report, so when people post that only idiots would go the img route, they clearly represent a very extreme view because 3,500 canadians would not go the img route if it was impossible to get back in. If you work your nuts off in medical school and build a solid application then you will be able to come back to canada (probably not with your top choice of residency but only 80% of cmgs get into one of their top 3 choices anyway, so its part of the profession)

+1

 

[jf1987]

I'm not going to get into what I've had or bring to the table, but I was a top 10 national athlete so I had something to make me stand out in general.

I'm not in high school anymore... You must have a poor perception of time. I'm dead-set on medicine, 4.0 gpa in my first semester. But I was just curious if pre-pharm students are concerned about the job market.
.

Date: 02-20-2012, 07:44 PM

So you are speaking from experience or did you get in after first year?

 

[druggeek]

What if they know I am a high school student that went straight to the UK to do their medicine. That would mean I've never tried to apply to medical school in Canada. Would that affect how they view me as an IMG? Also, from pretty much everything I heard, Caribbean schools even SGU are not very prestigious at all. UK, Irish and Australian schools are held in much higher regard because Caribbean schools are for profit whereas many of the UK, Irish and Australian schools are well established. Lastly, in the program I am applying to I will be doing a rotation in Canada, at the University of Alberta for 4 months. Would that benefit me when compared to other IMGs who have not done that?

You are over thinking about how much PDs really care (or know) what you've done.
It is not a matter of prestige, it's a matter of similarity of the system. Carirbean schools do ALL of their 2 years (rotations) in the US (essentially all the same to Canada) and as such will have a much better chance (top 4 schools) than somewhere else. This is shown to be true statistically as well.

Is this a rotation you're planning on doing or know for a fact that you will do? It's very difficult to get rotations in Canada as an IMG.

Again I dont understand why you want to go IMG when so far, you've done more than most pre meds have done pre -university. Academically, as long as you understand the material, you have a shot at a near 4.0.

 

[S0B]

You are over thinking about how much PDs really care (or know) what you've done.
It is not a matter of prestige, it's a matter of similarity of the system. Carirbean schools do ALL of their 2 years (rotations) in the US (essentially all the same to Canada) and as such will have a much better chance (top 4 schools) than somewhere else. This is shown to be true statistically as well.

Is this a rotation you're planning on doing or know for a fact that you will do? It's very difficult to get rotations in Canada as an IMG.

Again I dont understand why you want to go IMG when so far, you've done more than most pre meds have done pre -university. Academically, as long as you understand the material, you have a shot at a near 4.0.

In terms of Canadian residency matching, I heard that the commonwealth nations (Ireland, UK, Australia) are preferred over the Caribbean and statistics continue to prove that a majority of Caribbean medical schools have significantly lower match rates. Obviously, this is not the same in the US (Where Caribbean medical schools are preferred). What are your thoughts on this?

 

[druggeek]

This will sum it up pretty nicely

http://www.carms.ca/pdfs/2010_CSA_Report/CaRMS_2010_CSA_Report.pdf

 

[druggeek]

Statistics for IMGs

http://www.carms.ca/pdfs/2010R1_MatchResults/Discipline%20Choice%20and%20Match%20Results%20of%20IMG%20Grads%20by%20Gender1_en.pdf

http://www.carms.ca/pdfs/2010R1_MatchResults/IMGs by Region_1stand2nd Iteration_en.pdf

 

[medisforme]

The above reports and one or two of the posts have highlighted something that receives very little mention on these boards - the difficulty in organizing clinical rotations in Canada if studying overseas. According to the report, a majority of irsh grads found it quite difficult to organize clinical rotations in Canada. Given that CARMs requires three reference letters from Canadian doctors this is an issue that needs consideration from those studying overseas. To make matters worse, those who want to cover all their bases (I put myself in this category) and also apply for the US match would need to also organize clinical rotations in that country as well. So you would have to sacrifice some time you could have spent in Canada (if you were even lucky enough to organize an elective) to do a rotation in the US.

I also assume it would be hell preparing for both a Canadian and US match (given the USMLE step 1, 2, getting appropriate reference letters etc...).

 

[jf1987]

According to the report, a majority of irsh grads found it quite difficult to organize clinical rotations in Canada.

The report says that

44.8% found it "difficult"
26.9% found it "easy"
28.4% found it "okay."

To find clinical rotations in Canada from Ireland.

Statistics for IMGs

http://www.carms.ca/pdfs/2010R1_MatchResults/IMGs by Region_1stand2nd Iteration_en.pdf

That information is hard to draw conclusions from since it groups Europe as a single category (Poland, Ireland, UK, Hungary, Czech Republic etc.) It also doesn't distinguish the amount of time it has been since the applicants have graduated.

 

[druggeek]

The report says that

44.8% found it "difficult"
26.9% found it "easy"
28.4% found it "okay."

To find clinical rotations in Canada from Ireland.




That information is hard to draw conclusions from since it groups Europe as a single category (Poland, Ireland, UK, Hungary, Czech Republic etc.) It also doesn't distinguish the amount of time it has been since the applicants have graduated.

This thread was meant to further educate people before taking a risk, that's all. Personally I wouldnt go that much into debt/spend that much money for something that's statistically not in my favour overall.

 

[jf1987]

This thread was meant to further educate people before taking a risk, that's all. Personally I wouldnt go that much into debt/spend that much money for something that's statistically not in my favour overall.

You took it in a different direction but I will leave it at that.

 

[hapagirl]

Wow Killet T Cell - I just joined today and am amazed to read this. I accepted a place at RCSI (Dublin) today. Why are you so negative? You got a residency? I called the ECFMG today and they said there were over 7,000 residencies in the US for foreign grads and DOs this year...that doesn't seem like a crisis to me (we canadians may have to go to the US for residency - AB told us that at interview). why is the title of your post just a warning to students going to the UK & Ireland? if what you say is true (and I doubt it) then it applies to australia & the caribbean too - right? sounds to me like you have an ax to grind. I can't believe Caribbean grads run circles around UK grads - that's a joke (Caribbean versus Oxford!! come on now) you said yourself you had a great education AND you got a residency. my friend at rcsi said nearly all the graduating class this year got great residencies and mainly first choice...? doesn't sound like the Caribbean grads are running rings around them. Also, the CaRMS report says that Ireland has the best record of securing residencies in Canada and that's official you can see it on their web site.

You have too many posts dude to take you seriously I think...what happened to get you so upset?

 

[hapagirl]

jf1987, were you asking about the IM competition in Canada or America? I just edited my original post to include more details on the Canadians from my year.

Outside of my year...there are two Canadians I know from the Class of 2011. One of them is working in England as a junior doctor. He never applied to Canada and is going to try for internal medicine in America next year. The other settled for a rural psych post during 2nd round of Carms (even though she didn't want to do psych).

And I know of 2 Canadians in the Class of 2010. One of them wants to do pediatrics and has been working as a junior doctor for two years here. Like I said before, your training comes to a dead end here after two years. So he's going to go back to Canada, do a year of research, write his MCCEE and apply for peds. The other person was able to get out straight away and got into internal medicine.

The class of 2013 has about 8-9 Canadians. Many of them came here straight out of high school or after a few years of undergrad in Canada. Most of them are studying for their exams now and are going to apply next year alongside all the Canadians from my year. So I'll have a much bigger sample size next year this time. I know for a fact that only one or two of them have a genuine interest in family medicine. The rest of them are divided amongst internal medicine and pediatrics. But almost all of them just want to get back to Canada at this point that they're willing to take family medicine residencies in rural locations. This journey just wears you down......

why didn't she write her MCCEE when she was in med school? how can you apply for a residency if you haven't written your boards??? DAH

and 'settled for psychiatry'...??? what's wrong with psychiatry?

jou just described two Canadians - one of who got a residency and one who didn't even take the boards!!!!!!

 

[bangbangbang]

+1

 

[Killer T Cell]

Wow Killet T Cell - I just joined today and am amazed to read this. I accepted a place at RCSI (Dublin) today. Why are you so negative? You got a residency? I called the ECFMG today and they said there were over 7,000 residencies in the US for foreign grads and DOs this year...that doesn't seem like a crisis to me (we canadians may have to go to the US for residency - AB told us that at interview). why is the title of your post just a warning to students going to the UK & Ireland? if what you say is true (and I doubt it) then it applies to australia & the caribbean too - right? sounds to me like you have an ax to grind. I can't believe Caribbean grads run circles around UK grads - that's a joke (Caribbean versus Oxford!! come on now) you said yourself you had a great education AND you got a residency. my friend at rcsi said nearly all the graduating class this year got great residencies and mainly first choice...? doesn't sound like the Caribbean grads are running rings around them. Also, the CaRMS report says that Ireland has the best record of securing residencies in Canada and that's official you can see it on their web site.

You have too many posts dude to take you seriously I think...what happened to get you so upset?

Let me assure you that I have no ax to grind. I got 35 interview invites from America, many of them from some of the best pediatric residency progams over there (Dartmouth, Cleveland Clinic, UVa, St. Chris etc.). And I ended up prematching at my top choice; so yeah...this thread was definitely not forged out of disappointment or anger. It was my personal analysis and breakdown of where the IMG situation is heading and the risks associated with coming over here. You clearly disagree with me but to each their own.

I never said that Caribbeans and Australians won't feel the same pressure. They definitely will, but I just posted on this forum because I have met many UK students who were filled with naiveté and over-confidence. They were completely oblivious to the risks associated with their decisions. I have no links to the Caribbean and Australia and hence have no authority to go over to their side of SDN and give them advice. Their alumni can do that if they want to. I also never said a Caribbean grad would run circles around an Oxford grad. I just pointed out that they have a distinct advantage over us due to two years in America. And my observations in that section were entirely limited to the United States. I saw that European grads do 'relatively' well in the Canadian match in comparison to Caribbean graduates. But even then it's only 133/376 people who make it (35%). You can and probably will choose to believe that all the rest of the 65% are from Eastern Europe, and that Irish and UK grads have a near 100% match rate. Go ahead, it's obvious that nothing I can say is going to convince you otherwise.

why didn't she write her MCCEE when she was in med school? how can you apply for a residency if you haven't written your boards??? DAH

and 'settled for psychiatry'...??? what's wrong with psychiatry?

jou just described two Canadians - one of who got a residency and one who didn't even take the boards!!!!!!

You completely ignored the bit in my original post about the Canadians in my year; I definitely described more than two Canadians. And there's nothing wrong with Psychiatry or FM, please stop twisting my words around! I just said that it's a shame when you have to do it eventhough you love another specialty and/or have little to no interest in Psych/FM.

Sounds to me like you're a defensive individual who is unwilling to acknowledge the consequences and risks associated with this major decision you have taken in life. Ignore everything I said, it's a bright and rosy outlook for all the IMGs out there - espcially UK & Irish Grads! A 100% risk free adventure. You mentioned that AB said that you might have to go to the US for residency. And when you do they'll be waiting with open arms despite all the new medical schools that opened recently and the ones that are opening up in the near future http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medical_schools_in_the_United_States#Developing_medical_schools

It's going to be a tough journey ahead, and don't take it lightly. That's all I wanted to say, but it seems like I am getting flamed by quite a few people for being the messenger. I have neither the time, nor the energy for this Spanish Inquisition. I have final exams coming up and have a mountain of residency paperwork to fill out. Bookmark this thread and come back and read it 4-6 years down the road and you'll know what I was talking about. Best of luck everyone & peace out!

 

[Salad]

It's going to be a tough journey ahead, and don't take it lightly. That's all I wanted to say, but it seems like I am getting flamed by quite a few people for being the messenger. I have neither the time, nor the energy for this Spanish Inquisition. I have final exams coming up and have a mountain of residency paperwork to fill out. Bookmark this thread and come back and read it 4-6 years down the road and you'll know what I was talking about. Best of luck everyone & peace out!

Hey, before you leave, thanks for posting this. Not everyone will agree, but reading stuff like this is helpful. Everyone on this board should realize going to Ireland/UK for med from the US/Can will be a difficult journey (and only tougher in the future), but entirely doable. Just make sure you make yourself competitive!

 

[Lbgem]

Hey Killer T Cell,

Appreciate the time you took to post this. Was curious how you did during school (grades, USMLE, etc), what you felt helped you match into the residency you wanted and what didn't? Did you end up working like a dog during the summers, doing extra away rotations, publications, ECs/etc?

Thanks.

 

[hapagirl]

not defensive at all Killer T Cell - just pointing out that you are describing the very worst case scenario. If you have good board scores, a good transcript and a good Deans Letter you should get a residency. As you just said - you had 35 interview invites...again, where's the crisis? None of us think it's a 100%% risk free adventure - that is condescending & unnecessary. The fact is what has happened in your case doesn't stack up with what you are saying about the future or what the ECFMG told me. I still doubt your sincerity re 'you are only trying to help'. Scare mongering more like. Hey, it worked for you man...

 

[Medstart108]

You are over thinking about how much PDs really care (or know) what you've done.
It is not a matter of prestige, it's a matter of similarity of the system. Carirbean schools do ALL of their 2 years (rotations) in the US (essentially all the same to Canada) and as such will have a much better chance (top 4 schools) than somewhere else. This is shown to be true statistically as well.

Is this a rotation you're planning on doing or know for a fact that you will do? It's very difficult to get rotations in Canada as an IMG.

Again I dont understand why you want to go IMG when so far, you've done more than most pre meds have done pre -university. Academically, as long as you understand the material, you have a shot at a near 4.0.

I understand now.

 

[chicka]

Just out of curiosity how "easy" is it to get the residency of your choice in Ireland or EU if you are Canadian. To be honest I have no desire to return to canada if it means landing my choice there. I only want to pay of my loans. Is this system based on marks

 

[jf1987]

Just out of curiosity how "easy" is it to get the residency of your choice in Ireland or EU if you are Canadian. To be honest I have no desire to return to canada if it means landing my choice there. I only want to pay of my loans. Is this system based on marks

My understanding is that if you are non-EU it can be difficult to get one at all.

 

[S0B]

Just out of curiosity how "easy" is it to get the residency of your choice in Ireland or EU if you are Canadian. To be honest I have no desire to return to canada if it means landing my choice there. I only want to pay of my loans. Is this system based on marks

At the interview I was told its not recommended at all to stay in Ireland if you are a non-EU citizen. Its much much harder than landing a residency in Canada/US.

 

[deleted21609]

First of all, a bit of background about myself. I'm a US-IMG who came over to England for medical school in 2007. I managed to jump through all the hoops and was able to match into a pediatric residency in America. As an IMG, I've always had my eye on the foreign graduate situation and I've been seeing a disturbing trend over the last few years. And I just wanted to take this opportunity to share my thoughts and findings.

Ever since the onset of residencies in America, there have always been more residency spots than American medical graduates. That's why it has been relatively easy for foreign graduates to match into the 'IMG friendly' specialties (FM, IM, Neuro, Psych, Peds etc) and even occasionally sneak into the competitive fields. Foreign graduates were the ones who filled the gap.

But over the last few years, there has been a boom of osteopathic schools + increased enrollment in MD schools + opening of new MD schools. On the other hand the number of residency spots have remained the same due to budget constraints, and financial troubles. So if you put two and two together, there is a really dark cloud looming in the horizon for foreign medical graduates. It's projected that by 2015, the number of American graduates (MD+DO) will nearly equal the number of residency spots.

This would mean that even those five specialties will be quite challenging for IMGs (Even if you are from the UK or Ireland), unless you are an exceptional candidate with really high grades, excellent USMLE scores, research and electives at top hospitals. Have a look at this thread if you want to read more about the American situation http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=858100

I am fairly certain that highly qualified IMGs will still be able to get "a" residency spot in America even if it's 2017 or 2020 in the traditionally IMG friendly specialties. But I'm pretty sure competitive specialties will almost certainly be off-limits unless you are an absolute superstar candidate (I'm talking PhD, years off for research, multiple publications in international journals etc.)

There are a handful of Canadians in my class, so I am quite aware of the CARMS situation as well. It's a similar type of picture, with more and more Canadians studying abroad with each passing year and a stable number of residency spots. Most of the times you are competing for a very very limited number of IMG 'quotas' or fighting for unfilled spots in the second round. I know a few people who decided to settle for Family Medicine or Psychiatry although they really wanted to do Pediatrics or Internal Medicine. The competition is getting incredibly tough and this article breaks it down quite nicely. http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/story/2011/02/22/canadian-students-medicine-overseas.html

The UK is really strict when it comes to foreign students (not sure about Ireland). Even if you go to school here, if you are not an EU/UK citizen, it is almost impossible to find good training posts beyond 2 years after graduation.

If you do come here, keep in mind that from the day you set foot in England/Ireland, you are walking on eggshells. You can not afford to have even one red flag on your application. The competition for residency is going to be extremely tough in the coming years. So, no retakes during medical school and no poor scores or failures in any of your USMLEs or MCCEEs. Trust me...that is a lot of pressure, because one slip up and you have almost invariably burned off all your bridges to head back home. Even if you come out on the other end unscathed, getting into a well reputed residency program in a good metropolitan city will be tough, much much harder than getting into a north american medical school. There's a good chance that you'll find yourself in an unfortunate position where you'll have to compromise on your career choice and not be able to do what you love.

Therefore if you are a high school student, I would strongly advice you to do your undergraduate in North America, and apply to North American medical schools in a few years time; even if it means a bit of short term pain and uncertainty. Trust me, the long term consequences of going abroad significantly dampen the short term gains.

If you are an undergraduate student or finished your degree, try to get into North American medical schools for at least two years. In my opinion, only then should you even consider the possibility of going abroad for medical school. Do a post-baccalaureate or post graduate degree, retake the MCATs, do whatever it takes to improve your application. Europe should be your last resort after you exhaust all your North American options.

If you are already in UK/Ireland, at least you now know what you are up against and will be better prepared when the time comes to wage that uphill battle to get back home. Do audition electives at places where you want to work, these are invaluable!! Second only to your USMLE/MCCEE scores. On top of that, do research, get published, go to conferences, present audits, volunteer, and take on leadership roles. Turn yourself into a solid, well rounded applicant!

If I were applying right now, I wouldn't even entertain the possibility of studying in the UK, not even for a nanosecond!! Things have changed so much in the last five years and they're heading downhill with each passing year. Of course you'll hear the anecdotal success stories, but please take them with a grain of salt. Because behind every success you hear about on SDN there are stories without happy endings; struggles, hardships and regrets we never hear about. I'm the only American in my class and we had seven Canadians when we first started. Three of them failed out at different junctures of our course. Out of the four who are still here, two of them applied to Canada this year (the other two are planning to apply next year because they haven't written their MCCEE yet). Unfortunately both of them did not match despite coming from a well reputed medical school in England and possessing bachelors degrees from Canada. They're trying for round 2, but most likely they'll have to stay here and try again next year. So if this is the situation today, just imagine what's looming in the horizon? There is a category 5 hurricane brewin' in the ocean my friends.....be very very careful before you decide to swim directly towards it.

Sorry about this epic gloom and doom message. But I really think that anyone who comes to England or Ireland should be aware of the long term consequences and be able to make an informed decision. I know how difficult and unfair the medical admission process in North America is. I've seen many qualified candidates fall through the crack time and again. And I understand the appeal of well reputed medical schools in Ireland and England, places that are willing to give you a shot at your dreams. But just make sure that you have exhausted all your options back home before you get on that transatlantic flight. That way you will have absolutely no regrets a few years down the road, and you can be at peace with your decision for the rest of your life.

If you knew all this already, I'm sorry for taking up your time. But either way, I hope it was at least a little bit helpful. All of this is just my personal opinion based on my own experiences and observations; please don't take it as anything more. Having studied in the UK and having just gone through the match, I feel like I have gained quite a lot of insight into this process. Others might disagree with me. So please do your own research and come to your own conclusions. I wish you all the best and don't hesitate to message me if you have any more questions or need any help.

Always good to encourage people to look at the big picture and to be realistic about what opportunities may or may not be available.

 

[bangbangbang]

Always good to encourage people to look at the big picture and to be realistic about what opportunities may or may not be available.

The reality is that know one can predict the next 4-5 years because. It may get harder due to the increased amount of IMG's trying to match, or it could stay the same or get easier as more spots for IMG's are being made (Ex. BC). It is a gamble either way........

 

[blazers]

First of all, a bit of background about myself. I'm a US-IMG who came over to England for medical school in 2007. I managed to jump through all the hoops and was able to match into a pediatric residency in America. As an IMG, I've always had my eye on the foreign graduate situation and I've been seeing a disturbing trend over the last few years. And I just wanted to take this opportunity to share my thoughts and findings.

Ever since the onset of residencies in America, there have always been more residency spots than American medical graduates. That's why it has been relatively easy for foreign graduates to match into the 'IMG friendly' specialties (FM, IM, Neuro, Psych, Peds etc) and even occasionally sneak into the competitive fields. Foreign graduates were the ones who filled the gap.

But over the last few years, there has been a boom of osteopathic schools + increased enrollment in MD schools + opening of new MD schools. On the other hand the number of residency spots have remained the same due to budget constraints, and financial troubles. So if you put two and two together, there is a really dark cloud looming in the horizon for foreign medical graduates. It's projected that by 2015, the number of American graduates (MD+DO) will nearly equal the number of residency spots.

This would mean that even those five specialties will be quite challenging for IMGs (Even if you are from the UK or Ireland), unless you are an exceptional candidate with really high grades, excellent USMLE scores, research and electives at top hospitals. Have a look at this thread if you want to read more about the American situation http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=858100

I am fairly certain that highly qualified IMGs will still be able to get "a" residency spot in America even if it's 2017 or 2020 in the traditionally IMG friendly specialties. But I'm pretty sure competitive specialties will almost certainly be off-limits unless you are an absolute superstar candidate (I'm talking PhD, years off for research, multiple publications in international journals etc.)

There are a handful of Canadians in my class, so I am quite aware of the CARMS situation as well. It's a similar type of picture, with more and more Canadians studying abroad with each passing year and a stable number of residency spots. Most of the times you are competing for a very very limited number of IMG 'quotas' or fighting for unfilled spots in the second round. I know a few people who decided to settle for Family Medicine or Psychiatry although they really wanted to do Pediatrics or Internal Medicine. The competition is getting incredibly tough and this article breaks it down quite nicely. http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/story/2011/02/22/canadian-students-medicine-overseas.html

The UK is really strict when it comes to foreign students (not sure about Ireland). Even if you go to school here, if you are not an EU/UK citizen, it is almost impossible to find good training posts beyond 2 years after graduation.

If you do come here, keep in mind that from the day you set foot in England/Ireland, you are walking on eggshells. You can not afford to have even one red flag on your application. The competition for residency is going to be extremely tough in the coming years. So, no retakes during medical school and no poor scores or failures in any of your USMLEs or MCCEEs. Trust me...that is a lot of pressure, because one slip up and you have almost invariably burned off all your bridges to head back home. Even if you come out on the other end unscathed, getting into a well reputed residency program in a good metropolitan city will be tough, much much harder than getting into a north american medical school. There's a good chance that you'll find yourself in an unfortunate position where you'll have to compromise on your career choice and not be able to do what you love.

Therefore if you are a high school student, I would strongly advice you to do your undergraduate in North America, and apply to North American medical schools in a few years time; even if it means a bit of short term pain and uncertainty. Trust me, the long term consequences of going abroad significantly dampen the short term gains.

If you are an undergraduate student or finished your degree, try to get into North American medical schools for at least two years. In my opinion, only then should you even consider the possibility of going abroad for medical school. Do a post-baccalaureate or post graduate degree, retake the MCATs, do whatever it takes to improve your application. Europe should be your last resort after you exhaust all your North American options.

If you are already in UK/Ireland, at least you now know what you are up against and will be better prepared when the time comes to wage that uphill battle to get back home. Do audition electives at places where you want to work, these are invaluable!! Second only to your USMLE/MCCEE scores. On top of that, do research, get published, go to conferences, present audits, volunteer, and take on leadership roles. Turn yourself into a solid, well rounded applicant!

If I were applying right now, I wouldn't even entertain the possibility of studying in the UK, not even for a nanosecond!! Things have changed so much in the last five years and they're heading downhill with each passing year. Of course you'll hear the anecdotal success stories, but please take them with a grain of salt. Because behind every success you hear about on SDN there are stories without happy endings; struggles, hardships and regrets we never hear about. I'm the only American in my class and we had seven Canadians when we first started. Three of them failed out at different junctures of our course. Out of the four who are still here, two of them applied to Canada this year (the other two are planning to apply next year because they haven't written their MCCEE yet). Unfortunately both of them did not match despite coming from a well reputed medical school in England and possessing bachelors degrees from Canada. They're trying for round 2, but most likely they'll have to stay here and try again next year. So if this is the situation today, just imagine what's looming in the horizon? There is a category 5 hurricane brewin' in the ocean my friends.....be very very careful before you decide to swim directly towards it.

Sorry about this epic gloom and doom message. But I really think that anyone who comes to England or Ireland should be aware of the long term consequences and be able to make an informed decision. I know how difficult and unfair the medical admission process in North America is. I've seen many qualified candidates fall through the crack time and again. And I understand the appeal of well reputed medical schools in Ireland and England, places that are willing to give you a shot at your dreams. But just make sure that you have exhausted all your options back home before you get on that transatlantic flight. That way you will have absolutely no regrets a few years down the road, and you can be at peace with your decision for the rest of your life.

If you knew all this already, I'm sorry for taking up your time. But either way, I hope it was at least a little bit helpful. All of this is just my personal opinion based on my own experiences and observations; please don't take it as anything more. Having studied in the UK and having just gone through the match, I feel like I have gained quite a lot of insight into this process. Others might disagree with me. So please do your own research and come to your own conclusions. I wish you all the best and don't hesitate to message me if you have any more questions or need any help.

would residency programs prefer even DO's over UK/Ireland grads that come out of top medical colleges? I all ready understand that the worst North American MD School >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lets use Oxford in the UK when it comes to getting residency in the US. But DO's now also???

 

[JohnSnow]

would residency programs prefer even DO's over UK/Ireland grads that come out of top medical colleges? I all ready understand that the worst North American MD School >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lets use Oxford in the UK when it comes to getting residency in the US. But DO's now also???

The pecking order in the US is:

US MD
US DO
US citizen IMG
(I think non-US citizen US med grads fits in here)
non-US citizen IMG (FMG)

US DO grads have a 70% match rate whereas US IMG grads have a 50% match rate and non-US citizen IMGs have a match rate around 40%. (and that 70% match rate is ONLY for US MD residencies. DOs have their own residencies as well and most DO grads will do them instead of MD residencies)

Obviously there are extenuating factors that go into every application. But US DO grads match considerably better than IMGs.

If your goal is to practice in the US then going the DO route is a better choice than Ireland. For one, you're essentially guaranteed a residency (either MD or DO). Match rates for Ireland may be very good but they're not 100%. So in going to a US DO school you're not taking a $200,000 gamble its definitely more of an investment whereas Ireland or the UK can turn into a bit of a gamble if you don't have European citizenship. Will most people match? Probably. Will they get the residency of their choice? Probably not unless they want primary care. DO grads will most likely get the residency of their choice if they put in the work during med school.

The only issue with DO grads comes after medical school. The degree isn't recognized in every country like the US MD degree is. On the global scale the Irish degree is a better bet than US DO. But if your goal is to practice in the US then go DO over Ireland if you don't want the risk. Plus a lot of the DO schools tend to be considerably cheaper than Ireland. On the negative side the DO schools really do focus on primary care medicine (but if you're an IMG that's likely all you're going to get anyway), and they tend to be located in rural areas.

 

[leorl]

The other thing with DO's is that there are "DO-only" residencies as well as allopathic residencies which accept DO's, so they have more opportunities available. Obviously, IMGs cannot apply for "DO-only" residencies as IMGs have an allopathic equivalent.

However, I wouldn't really let anything on this board dissuade you if that's what you want. Everyone knows that staying in your own country for education is best, if you want to practice in your country eventually. Everyone knows that the IMG route is going to be harder and that there may be potential biases in the future. Everyone knows that IMGs may have a riskier time when trying to match. There are those of us (myself included) who accepted this risk and chose this pathway anyway. We did just fine.

The climate is getting harder, but I wouldn't really worry too much about "pecking order" or any other categorization. There's great DOs, great Caribbean students, great Irish/UK grads, great european grads. There's also very poor students in each of those categories and extremely lazy people in all categories, and I've been quite amazed at the range of personalities and work ethic among all these people when I've interviewed or precepted them. The "pecking order" is a moot point in my experience and from what I've observed, there is no preference for Caribbean over Irish in the US. What really counts is getting quality clerkships and quality LOR's no matter what category you're in.

There are plenty of Irish grads who are in very competitive specialies. Actually, in my contemporaneous group, I do not know anyone who went into psychiatry, FP or peds. A couple canadians did GP but they always wanted to do GP anyway. In the year above mine, one guy matched Ortho in Canada. In last year's class, one guy matched Surgery at U of T. People are still getting competitive residencies. You will have to work your ass off for it.

 

[Blitz2006]

Well, I'm KillerT's classmate and close friend, so I figure I would pitch in my 2 cents. I'm a Canadian IMG as well, but I'm also British citizen, so I can choose to stay here if I want for life.

First of all, I agree with everything he has to say in all his posts, 110%. He could not have said it better.

I would not recommend anyone coming to the UK UNLESS you are a British Citizen/EU Passport holder. Otherwise, I would highly suggest against it.

Sure, a few people have stated that "KillerT has had great success, why is he so depressing?". He's not depressing, he's just being realistic and opening the window on the real world for IMG.

And yes, he has had success (35 Interviews), but he's not your typical IMG.

Here's why:

1) For all you Canadians out there, KillerT is a U.S Citizen and his permanent address is on U.S soil. Like it or not, that is a huge plus for residency match in the States. None of this J1/H1b visa nonsense. Even having a Green Card makes life easier. So Canadians, keep this in mind...

2) He's done 2 summers of Pediatric Cardiology research at a Ivey League school...and the first summer of his research was BEFORE he even started medical school....How many american/canadian medical students do hardcore peds research before they even start medical school, let alone IMGs!?

3) He's got very solid USMLE scores. Easier said than done. Just because you study 24/7 doesn't always equate to great board scores.

4) He did 12 weeks of Pediatric electives + 4 weeks of Peds Sub-Internship. So 16 weeks total, 4 different preceptors. He's probably one of very few IMGs that has done a sub-internship (which is big, cause you are working 90 hours/week, acting like a resident, unlike elective where you are still 'just' a medical student.

5) He was able to get strong reference letters from all 4 preceptors. Again, just because you do an elective doesn't always equate to strong reference letters.

5) He has a BSc. from a Top 30 University in the states. So he didn't come straight from highschool.

6) He graduated from the UK, not Ireland. I know Ireland grads are gonna shoot me for this, but there is stigma coming from Ireland. This is what the PD at UMass told me when I did my IM elective last summer. There is no "Atlantic Bridge Program" for the UK, so there aren't that many Americans/Canadians in England studying medicine. In our year, there are 5 North Americans in total, and I think maybe 30 total in our whole school...and our school is one of the largest in England. There are 33 medical schools in the UK, and I'm pretty sure there are <120 North Americans in this country.

7) Not only did he graduate from the UK, but he graduated from a reasonably well known school in England. Name recognition helps. People in the medical field in the U.S have heard of places like Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham, Imperial, King's, Edinburgh....but not everyone has heard of schools like Keele, Royal Peninsula, Hull-York...

So even with all these advantages, KillerT arguably had a tough time in obtaining a GOOD residency in a GOOD city. I think what most pre-med students don't realize is that the States has a lot of BAD residencies in BAD cities, often being called "malignant" programs. Well guess what, out of those 35 interviews, a fair number of them were 'malignant'. What does malignant residency mean? Working 90 hours a week and having staff yell at you day in and day out...

Also, I think a lot of pre-meds are just happy with 'being a doctor', and don't care where they are and what they do. If that is the case, then sure, cross the pond. If you're happy with doing Psych in rural Alabama or FM in Bronx ( and before you flame me, I'm not saying this is bad at all, I'm just saying vast majority would not choose these situations in ideal circumstances)

So in the end, I would agree with KillerT and say that Carribean/DO is the way to go. Its all about making contacts for residency, and when you do 2 years of clinicals in the states...well...and I met a SGU student here in UK, she said they get 22 weeks of electives....most UK schools get 8 weeks (and I believe this is the same in Ireland).

If you do decide to come, you kind of have to pick your speciality now, as in, can you see yourself in FM/IM/Psych/Peds for the rest of your life? Don't come here thinking you'll be a Plastic Surgeon in L.A or Dermatologist in Miami...

And remember guys, there are other things in life apart from medicine....I personally think its ridiculous that ppl are willing to hop from country to country, spend $300K or whatever just to have M.D after their name. Trust me, its overrated, but I'll save that for another rant...

 

[Blitz2006]

The other thing with DO's is that there are "DO-only" residencies as well as allopathic residencies which accept DO's, so they have more opportunities available. Obviously, IMGs cannot apply for "DO-only" residencies as IMGs have an allopathic equivalent.

However, I wouldn't really let anything on this board dissuade you if that's what you want. Everyone knows that staying in your own country for education is best, if you want to practice in your country eventually. Everyone knows that the IMG route is going to be harder and that there may be potential biases in the future. Everyone knows that IMGs may have a riskier time when trying to match. There are those of us (myself included) who accepted this risk and chose this pathway anyway. We did just fine.

The climate is getting harder, but I wouldn't really worry too much about "pecking order" or any other categorization. There's great DOs, great Caribbean students, great Irish/UK grads, great european grads. There's also very poor students in each of those categories and extremely lazy people in all categories, and I've been quite amazed at the range of personalities and work ethic among all these people when I've interviewed or precepted them. The "pecking order" is a moot point in my experience and from what I've observed, there is no preference for Caribbean over Irish in the US. What really counts is getting quality clerkships and quality LOR's no matter what category you're in.

There are plenty of Irish grads who are in very competitive specialies. Actually, in my contemporaneous group, I do not know anyone who went into psychiatry, FP or peds. A couple canadians did GP but they always wanted to do GP anyway. In the year above mine, one guy matched Ortho in Canada. In last year's class, one guy matched Surgery at U of T. People are still getting competitive residencies. You will have to work your ass off for it.

I have to disagree with you Leorl. JohnSnow is correct. There is a pecking order, as much as we want to deny it, and he got it down pretty right. You indirectly said that going to carribean school/DO is better:

"What really counts is getting quality clerkships and quality LOR's no matter what category you're in."

Well, as a carribean student doing 2 years of clerkships in the states, that exponentially improves your chances of getting quality experience/LORs vs. a British medical student who spends 6-8 weeks in the U.S, with 2-3 of those weeks spent on adjusting to the American Health Care System. From personal experience, making that transition is hard, and even harder when you're trying to impress your preceptor.

Also, the entire curriculum in carribean is geared for the American system. From USMLE prep to management of patients. A simple example is management of something like Lyme disease. I've only read this in my First Aid book, meanwhile on my elective the other medical students were easily able to diagnose, manage and treat this condition.

Simply because nobody knows what Lyme disease really is in the UK....


"There are plenty of Irish grads who are in very competitive specialies."

I disagree. I have lots of canadian friends in UCC/UCD/Trinity/RCSI. There is actually a thread just put up today by someone from UCD.

By looking at the matches, particularly for Canadians, I see mainly FM/IM/Psych. Sure, there is 1 ER (American), 1 Anesthetics (American again) and few Canadians who got Peds/Gen Surg.

But again, statistically, it seems like you're destined for IM/Psych/FM (I'm not saying this is bad, but I question if these students enter this fields because they are passionate for it or because they know thats their only ticket to go back across the pond...?)

Just my 2 cents,

 

[leorl]

Sure, there have been people unsuccessful in applying for the specialty of their choice in the Match. Sometimes even more for Canadians who may be applying for US spots and with visa considerations. It is and will continue to be more and more difficult.

How many of the people applying for the match actually do want IM / FM? In general, IM will be one of the most "popular" specialties across the board and so when you say that being destined for IM/FM may show an inferior opportunity for Irish FMGs, we have to think about the desires of each graduating class. If the majority of the class wanted ortho/surgery/derm/em, then yes, matching predominantly in IM as "backup" is not a good thing. But if most in the class wanted IM, then that match list is very good as those are really class places that should be able to pave ways into getting competitive fellowships. Most people do not choose Psych or FM as "backups," opting instead for IM or transition year programs. Again, based on that list, the UCDers going into Psych are going to quite good places. None of those programs on the UCD match list are very FMG heavy except for maybe manitoba and NYMC (although not NYMC anesthesia). The other thing is that the IM route in Canada offers more opportunities than in the US (eg. IM as a route to EM) . There's a couple people going to UofT on that list which is excellent. I don't think people are choosing IM / Psych/ FM as just a route to get back in. With the exception of a couple people, probably most honestly want to go into an IM subspecialty.

In my experience, what sounds good on paper (DO and Caribbean route tailors to the US System, yes.) does not really have too much of an impact in real life. Obviously to be successful you have to work harder to a) study for the USMLE in a way that is different from the way you study for your Irish/UK exams, b) obtain good electives, c) standout so you can get good letters, d) do other extracurriculars that will make you more attractive/unique. These things are pretty much personality dependent, not location-of-medical-school dependent. I've met and precepted Caribbean and DO students (some of whom are even friends) who are not good academically and are not the best clinicians, and so their increased opportunities in a US setting did not give them any increased advantage in terms of being able to prove themselves. I've met Carib / DO students who are smart and able to take a test, but are lazy as hell. I'm not saying there are never North American Irish students who are like this, but from I've seen, the Irish students hold their own pretty well, despite not having as many opportunities as others. Again, success in USMLE / obtaining electives / performing well in electives is personality-dependent, not based on location.

I think when you talk to senior medical students who have done electives, they can share similar stories. All of us had experiences when our clinical acumen impressed attendings. Although it was hard work, most of us were able to get electives in good places. Most in my class revised pretty heavily prior to doing electives so we wouldn't be behind the game, and practised soap notes / presenting h&p's so that we could come across looking fairly polished. Especially for sub-i's. Extra work that others don't have to consider? Yes, but obviously worth it. When I came back to the US for my intern year, I had "hard-ass" attendings who valued and commented on my Irish training even before I had "proven" myself, and I know other graduates have had similar stories.

Now that I've been on the other side and been involved in Match selection and interviewing in places that are FMG friendly, I have not encountered any priority given to Caribbean students over Irish/UK students. Caribbean students may have more opportunity to get US electives, but you only submit 3-4 LORs for the Match. Irish/other FMG applicants also usually have 3-4 from quality places as well, so the number of LORs submitted is the same as the Caribbean applicant. We're probably more vigilant in making our LORs count. Caribbean students may also have more opportunity to get research done, and this is an area where Irish students should improve.

Anyway, my reason for posting these rather long messages is not to negate what has been previously said. There are very large considerations people need to think about before choosing an Irish / UK school, and I have some negative experiences I could share. But instead of the doom and gloom that these threads can spiral into, I choose to highlight some positives, because there are those of us (and not as few as this board makes it sound like) who have become pretty successful. I think that's also a message that should be out there, and I want students who have chosen this pathway for whatever reason to feel some support and encouragement.

 

[druggeek]

Wow Killet T Cell - I just joined today and am amazed to read this. I accepted a place at RCSI (Dublin) today. Why are you so negative? You got a residency? I called the ECFMG today and they said there were over 7,000 residencies in the US for foreign grads and DOs this year...that doesn't seem like a crisis to me (we canadians may have to go to the US for residency - AB told us that at interview). why is the title of your post just a warning to students going to the UK & Ireland? if what you say is true (and I doubt it) then it applies to australia & the caribbean too - right? sounds to me like you have an ax to grind. I can't believe Caribbean grads run circles around UK grads - that's a joke (Caribbean versus Oxford!! come on now) you said yourself you had a great education AND you got a residency. my friend at rcsi said nearly all the graduating class this year got great residencies and mainly first choice...? doesn't sound like the Caribbean grads are running rings around them. Also, the CaRMS report says that Ireland has the best record of securing residencies in Canada and that's official you can see it on their web site.

You have too many posts dude to take you seriously I think...what happened to get you so upset?

I dont think you've quite grasped the concepts yet.

why didn't she write her MCCEE when she was in med school? how can you apply for a residency if you haven't written your boards??? DAH

and 'settled for psychiatry'...??? what's wrong with psychiatry?

jou just described two Canadians - one of who got a residency and one who didn't even take the boards!!!!!!

Psych pays less than family medicine (quite worse) and is amongst the worst paying specialties in Canada. Not to mention many people have no real interest in treating mental illnesses which in reality are only partially treatable.

 

[druggeek]

not defensive at all Killer T Cell - just pointing out that you are describing the very worst case scenario. If you have good board scores, a good transcript and a good Deans Letter you should get a residency. As you just said - you had 35 interview invites...again, where's the crisis? None of us think it's a 100%% risk free adventure - that is condescending & unnecessary. The fact is what has happened in your case doesn't stack up with what you are saying about the future or what the ECFMG told me. I still doubt your sincerity re 'you are only trying to help'. Scare mongering more like. Hey, it worked for you man...

It is not a worse case scenario... it is a fairly likely reality. Going to medical school itself and taking out major loans is not a risk free venture. Something can happen and cause you to drop out in year 4 or whatever... and there are all your loans and all the time you invested.
Now going the IMG route presents a much greater risk, and the risk grows every year.

In Canada, the IMG acceptance rate is very low. In the US, there's lots of crappier residencies which are also malignant... IMG and fired from a residency? forget medicine. And this is not even that unlikely as it seems.

It is a rotation that is already pre arranged. However, it starts in November of my last year which would make it too late to apply to the 1st iteration of CaRMS. Right now, I'm finding out if they can change the date as this is a relatively new program.

I got accepted to Richard Ivey Business school at Western AEO. A few months ago I got biomed at western as well. In this case, I would do 2 years of bio med and move on to 2 years of Ivey. Business is my backup. What if I do 2 years at western biomed, see how good my grades are and if they are GPA 4.0 then I'll drop ivey and apply to med school. If my grades are low then I'll just do business and forget medicine although I really want to become a doctor.

Sounds like a good plan, go with it.

The reality is that know one can predict the next 4-5 years because. It may get harder due to the increased amount of IMG's trying to match, or it could stay the same or get easier as more spots for IMG's are being made (Ex. BC). It is a gamble either way........

The BC move was a one time thing.

would residency programs prefer even DO's over UK/Ireland grads that come out of top medical colleges? I all ready understand that the worst North American MD School >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lets use Oxford in the UK when it comes to getting residency in the US. But DO's now also???

DOs always win over IMGs, no competition at all.

 

[druggeek]

Well, I'm KillerT's classmate and close friend, so I figure I would pitch in my 2 cents. I'm a Canadian IMG as well, but I'm also British citizen, so I can choose to stay here if I want for life.

First of all, I agree with everything he has to say in all his posts, 110%. He could not have said it better.

I would not recommend anyone coming to the UK UNLESS you are a British Citizen/EU Passport holder. Otherwise, I would highly suggest against it.

Sure, a few people have stated that "KillerT has had great success, why is he so depressing?". He's not depressing, he's just being realistic and opening the window on the real world for IMG.

And yes, he has had success (35 Interviews), but he's not your typical IMG.

Here's why:

1) For all you Canadians out there, KillerT is a U.S Citizen and his permanent address is on U.S soil. Like it or not, that is a huge plus for residency match in the States. None of this J1/H1b visa nonsense. Even having a Green Card makes life easier. So Canadians, keep this in mind...

2) He's done 2 summers of Pediatric Cardiology research at a Ivey League school...and the first summer of his research was BEFORE he even started medical school....How many american/canadian medical students do hardcore peds research before they even start medical school, let alone IMGs!?

3) He's got very solid USMLE scores. Easier said than done. Just because you study 24/7 doesn't always equate to great board scores.

4) He did 12 weeks of Pediatric electives + 4 weeks of Peds Sub-Internship. So 16 weeks total, 4 different preceptors. He's probably one of very few IMGs that has done a sub-internship (which is big, cause you are working 90 hours/week, acting like a resident, unlike elective where you are still 'just' a medical student.

5) He was able to get strong reference letters from all 4 preceptors. Again, just because you do an elective doesn't always equate to strong reference letters.

5) He has a BSc. from a Top 30 University in the states. So he didn't come straight from highschool.

6) He graduated from the UK, not Ireland. I know Ireland grads are gonna shoot me for this, but there is stigma coming from Ireland. This is what the PD at UMass told me when I did my IM elective last summer. There is no "Atlantic Bridge Program" for the UK, so there aren't that many Americans/Canadians in England studying medicine. In our year, there are 5 North Americans in total, and I think maybe 30 total in our whole school...and our school is one of the largest in England. There are 33 medical schools in the UK, and I'm pretty sure there are <120 North Americans in this country.

7) Not only did he graduate from the UK, but he graduated from a reasonably well known school in England. Name recognition helps. People in the medical field in the U.S have heard of places like Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham, Imperial, King's, Edinburgh....but not everyone has heard of schools like Keele, Royal Peninsula, Hull-York...

So even with all these advantages, KillerT arguably had a tough time in obtaining a GOOD residency in a GOOD city. I think what most pre-med students don't realize is that the States has a lot of BAD residencies in BAD cities, often being called "malignant" programs. Well guess what, out of those 35 interviews, a fair number of them were 'malignant'. What does malignant residency mean? Working 90 hours a week and having staff yell at you day in and day out...

Also, I think a lot of pre-meds are just happy with 'being a doctor', and don't care where they are and what they do. If that is the case, then sure, cross the pond. If you're happy with doing Psych in rural Alabama or FM in Bronx ( and before you flame me, I'm not saying this is bad at all, I'm just saying vast majority would not choose these situations in ideal circumstances)

So in the end, I would agree with KillerT and say that Carribean/DO is the way to go. Its all about making contacts for residency, and when you do 2 years of clinicals in the states...well...and I met a SGU student here in UK, she said they get 22 weeks of electives....most UK schools get 8 weeks (and I believe this is the same in Ireland).

If you do decide to come, you kind of have to pick your speciality now, as in, can you see yourself in FM/IM/Psych/Peds for the rest of your life? Don't come here thinking you'll be a Plastic Surgeon in L.A or Dermatologist in Miami...

And remember guys, there are other things in life apart from medicine....I personally think its ridiculous that ppl are willing to hop from country to country, spend $300K or whatever just to have M.D after their name. Trust me, its overrated, but I'll save that for another rant...

This post deserves 6 stars. Seriously. Should be a must read for "pre-IMGs."

 

[arielred]

What if they know I am a high school student that went straight to the UK to do their medicine. That would mean I've never tried to apply to medical school in Canada. Would that affect how they view me as an IMG? Also, from pretty much everything I heard, Caribbean schools even SGU are not very prestigious at all. UK, Irish and Australian schools are held in much higher regard because Caribbean schools are for profit whereas many of the UK, Irish and Australian schools are well established. Lastly, in the program I am applying to I will be doing a rotation in Canada, at the University of Alberta for 4 months. Would that benefit me when compared to other IMGs who have not done that?

In short, no. I completed my sixth form education in the uk, got into medical school there and no one gave me special treatment because I was not an American med school reject. An IMG is an IMG at the end of the day no matter what.

 

[Blitz2006]

Sure, there have been people unsuccessful in applying for the specialty of their choice in the Match. Sometimes even more for Canadians who may be applying for US spots and with visa considerations. It is and will continue to be more and more difficult.

How many of the people applying for the match actually do want IM / FM? In general, IM will be one of the most "popular" specialties across the board and so when you say that being destined for IM/FM may show an inferior opportunity for Irish FMGs, we have to think about the desires of each graduating class. If the majority of the class wanted ortho/surgery/derm/em, then yes, matching predominantly in IM as "backup" is not a good thing. But if most in the class wanted IM, then that match list is very good as those are really class places that should be able to pave ways into getting competitive fellowships. Most people do not choose Psych or FM as "backups," opting instead for IM or transition year programs. Again, based on that list, the UCDers going into Psych are going to quite good places. None of those programs on the UCD match list are very FMG heavy except for maybe manitoba and NYMC (although not NYMC anesthesia). The other thing is that the IM route in Canada offers more opportunities than in the US (eg. IM as a route to EM) . There's a couple people going to UofT on that list which is excellent. I don't think people are choosing IM / Psych/ FM as just a route to get back in. With the exception of a couple people, probably most honestly want to go into an IM subspecialty.

I never said that the people going into IM chose it as backup. I'm sure there are many who's passion is IM. But I find it suspicious that year in and year out, its always IM/FM/Psych that is heavy with the IMG load.....(and this includes carribean/DO as well). My gut feeling (and again, this is just opinion), is that people from the get go (1st day of med school) say they are interested in IM/FM because subconsciously that is what they hear/feel is the only way back to N.A.

Here is a real example:

I have a close friend in Cork, final year student as well, And he's told me straight up that most of his classmates just want to go back to Canada, not really caring about what residency they get. Some REAL examples, he has a classmate that applied to FM/Obs-Gyn and Anesthetics. Another that applied to ENT and Psych. I mean, come on, if you're spraying CaRMs with specialty combos like that those, I find it hard to believe you have a desire for a certain speciality.

I'm a current student, and from what I hear from my classmates a year below, and in Ireland, is people choosing residencies based on statistics (for the most part). I don't see much passion for specialties with IMGs, but again thats just my general opinion/perspective.

I disagree, I think a couple of psych matches are at mediocre/sub-mediocre places. My father is a psychiatrist in Canada so I am familiar with programs..

You mention that Manitoba is FMG heavy, well, 3/5 of the FM matches are in Manitoba, so thats 60%.

In my experience, what sounds good on paper (DO and Caribbean route tailors to the US System, yes.) does not really have too much of an impact in real life. Obviously to be successful you have to work harder to a) study for the USMLE in a way that is different from the way you study for your Irish/UK exams, b) obtain good electives, c) standout so you can get good letters, d) do other extracurriculars that will make you more attractive/unique. These things are pretty much personality dependent, not location-of-medical-school dependent. I've met and precepted Caribbean and DO students (some of whom are even friends) who are not good academically and are not the best clinicians, and so their increased opportunities in a US setting did not give them any increased advantage in terms of being able to prove themselves. I've met Carib / DO students who are smart and able to take a test, but are lazy as hell. I'm not saying there are never North American Irish students who are like this, but from I've seen, the Irish students hold their own pretty well, despite not having as many opportunities as others. Again, success in USMLE / obtaining electives / performing well in electives is personality-dependent, not based on location.

You missed my point. I never said that when you cross the pond, you are unable to obtain a good residency. The point of my post was as an IMG, the cards are already stacked up against you, you want to choose a place that makes your life the most feasible in matching into a residency. I agree, quality of education, being a good doctor, blah blah is all important. But honestly, when you graduate, what is the end goal? To match into residency. And in that regard, DO/Carribean trump. You can proved your point in this paragraph. Those guys do have it 'easier' because:

1) Their course is tailored to USMLE
2) They have 20-25 weeks of electives. So that by default helps you get 'good electives'.
3) Much easier to get good electives.

For example, I have a friend in a carribean school that does a mock USMLE exam every other Friday...for 2 years....

I agree with your 100%, of course its all personality dependent. So my argument is, you take the same person, same personality (hard working, driven, smart, etc.), and if that person had to choose DO/Carribean vs. Ireland, I think DO/Carribean is the better way because of the reasons listed above.

From my experience and what I've seen, why make your life even tougher, when you're an IMG already?

I think when you talk to senior medical students who have done electives, they can share similar stories. All of us had experiences when our clinical acumen impressed attendings. Although it was hard work, most of us were able to get electives in good places. Most in my class revised pretty heavily prior to doing electives so we wouldn't be behind the game, and practised soap notes / presenting h&p's so that we could come across looking fairly polished. Especially for sub-i's. Extra work that others don't have to consider? Yes, but obviously worth it. When I came back to the US for my intern year, I had "hard-ass" attendings who valued and commented on my Irish training even before I had "proven" myself, and I know other graduates have had similar stories.

Now that I've been on the other side and been involved in Match selection and interviewing in places that are FMG friendly, I have not encountered any priority given to Caribbean students over Irish/UK students. Caribbean students may have more opportunity to get US electives, but you only submit 3-4 LORs for the Match. Irish/other FMG applicants also usually have 3-4 from quality places as well, so the number of LORs submitted is the same as the Caribbean applicant. We're probably more vigilant in making our LORs count. Caribbean students may also have more opportunity to get research done, and this is an area where Irish students should improve.

Anyway, my reason for posting these rather long messages is not to negate what has been previously said. There are very large considerations people need to think about before choosing an Irish / UK school, and I have some negative experiences I could share. But instead of the doom and gloom that these threads can spiral into, I choose to highlight some positives, because there are those of us (and not as few as this board makes it sound like) who have become pretty successful. I think that's also a message that should be out there, and I want students who have chosen this pathway for whatever reason to feel some support and encouragement.

I highly respect your opinion, as I know you are a veteran on this board and you've been in the game yourself. I just wanted to pitch my perspective.

Its not all doom and gloom at all. But I'm just saying I get this notion that people who come here are very jaded. I've already seen it evolve in front of my eyes. The 'kids' in 1st year who came straight out of highschool all thought they were going back to Toronto after 5 years in the UK. They were saying stuff like, and I quote, "This is awesome, I'm cheating the system, skipping out on a BSc and will get to back to Toronto and be a rich doctor".

Well all of a sudden reality is now hitting them as they approach final year.....

And you think we're gonna be rich doctors when we graduate?

Here is an amazing analysis of physician incomes in America. Guess what, all said and done, Internists/Psychiatrists and Family Physicians make the same amount of $/hr as a teacher.

http://benbrownmd.wordpress.com/

Surprise, surprise. The speciality that is most heavily IMG friendly in the U.S (over 48% of residents in IM are IMGs) has minimal financial compensation (relatively).

Again, I'm not saying money is the end all. But as this writer states:

" Physicians want to work hard and do whatever they can for their patients. And like every other American, physicians also want to be appreciated and fairly compensated for their time and financial sacrifice."

 

[Blitz2006]

I dont think you've quite grasped the concepts yet.


Psych pays less than family medicine (quite worse) and is amongst the worst paying specialties in Canada. Not to mention many people have no real interest in treating mental illnesses which in reality are only partially treatable.

Yep, I can agree with this.

Every year Psych has tons of spots 2nd round.

Here are some facts:

In 2011, Western has 6 total spots (2 IMG, 4 CMG), only 1/6 filled in 1st round. So the other 5 filled in 2nd round with IMGs.

In 2012, this past match, Newfoundland has 7 Psych spots (5 CMG, 2 IMG), only 1 IMG spot filled, there are now 6 Open Psych spots available in 2nd round....

Although I disagree with the pay, Psych as a median is >>> FM . And remember, psych has much less overhead costs (average FM overhead is 40%, Psych is 20%).

But yes, if you're a good businessman and want to work in a smalltown, than FM trumps Psych. True stories, Family physicians in Timmins earn over 450K, and my friend said on his interview he met a FM doc that makes 750K in Dauphin, Manitoba.

But in Toronto/GTA, average FM makes 200K.

 

[Blitz2006]

Here is the 2012 SGU Match List:

https://baysgu35.sgu.edu/ERD/2012/ResidPost.nsf/BYPGY?OpenView&RestrictToCategory=PGY1&Count=-1

Disclaimer:

1) Yes, I admit that this only highlights the success stories. I understand that not everyone at SGU matches. But this is a pretty solid list.

2) I am aware that >70% of SGU students are U.S citizens/Green Card holders, so that also skews the match results.

But overall, its pretty decent right, and dare I say, maybe even impressive..? Now compare this list, with the other thread on this forum that lists the UCD match list, and I don't see how Ireland is an advantage over the carribean?

I mean...on a blind-fold test, if you asked me which school performed better in quality of matches, I'd have to pick SGU..

Again, just my opinion.

Its not doom and gloom before I get flamed, I'm just trying to separate reality from fantasy. Thats all.

 

[Salad]

Here is the 2012 SGU Match List:

https://baysgu35.sgu.edu/ERD/2012/ResidPost.nsf/BYPGY?OpenView&RestrictToCategory=PGY1&Count=-1

Disclaimer:

1) Yes, I admit that this only highlights the success stories. I understand that not everyone at SGU matches. But this is a pretty solid list.

2) I am aware that >70% of SGU students are U.S citizens/Green Card holders, so that also skews the match results.

But overall, its pretty decent right, and dare I say, maybe even impressive..? Now compare this list, with the other thread on this forum that lists the UCD match list, and I don't see how Ireland is an advantage over the carribean?

I mean...on a blind-fold test, if you asked me which school performed better in quality of matches, I'd have to pick SGU..

Again, just my opinion.

Its not doom and gloom before I get flamed, I'm just trying to separate reality from fantasy. Thats all.

Hm, sgu match is pretty good, but a few things to keep in mind. For Canadians, I only see 4 matches back to Canada, so their Canadian match is fairly low.

Further, you have to realize that ireland has a fairly small sample size. In that year, sgu has a few hundred grads, as their class size for first year now totals about 650 to 700 or so a term (with a sept and jan term, Jan would be slightly less ppl) between the Grenada and Newcastle campuses (note class sizes May have been smalller when this years graduates began). So, the selection and numbers seen on that list are actually a bit underwhelming compared to their class size.

All I'm trying to say is it's hard to compare those match results. Everyone should still know that becoming and img is tough, no question regarding that.

 

[JohnSnow]

The United States has plans to produce more primary care physicians by 2020 as there is expected to be a shortage. However, because there is expected to be a shortage in all likelihood there will still be opportunities for IMGs.

If you're going to a school that is approved for US government loans you've got a good chance at getting a residency upon graduation. The government is making an investment in you. If you don't match then they face the possibility of eating about $300,000 in unpaid loans so they have to have some influence over the NRMP. This is likely the primary reason that US-IMGs mach better than non-US-IMGs.

Note that when I say you'll get "a residency" it almost certainly means primary care. Not that there is anything wrong with primary care, just know that's what you're likely going to get out of it. There are some exceptions but most IMGs end up in primary care.

From the sound of things there are a lot of headaches encountered when it comes to returning to the US for residency but it is doable. If you've been accepted to a school in Ireland and can't get into school in the US then you should go to Ireland!