About the Ireland Proposal to Increase local med school slots

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M

Mike MacKinnon

OK

So i know you all are wondering the same thing as i am.

I decided that the only person I know who might have an idea about this situation was Mr Keenan from the Atlantic Bridge program. So I emailed him and asked. Here was the response.

Hello again Mr Keenan!

Sorry to bother you just had a couple of questions.

I read about the proposed new changes coming to the Ireland medical school system where there will be more slots for locals.

This is merely a proposal, Mike. Such proposals are made very few years.

Will that affect us and the slots open for people from North America?

No.

If so, will it take effect this year?

No, and it may never take effect. It is just a proposal.

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Thanks Mike. Just goes to show, the best way to get information is to go directly to the source (instead of reading internet rumours).

Though this is a positive thing for NA applicants, it's too bad for the Irish students. From what I've seen, they really get the short end of the stick when it comes to med school spots. Hopefully this proposal is implemented (and quickly).
 
I'd say it's far more than a proposal. It is an actual plan that will start to take shape. Trinners posted a good website about it in one of the threads, and it was in the papers last week. They might be optimistic about their proposed timeline and it would be nice to know a few more details, but this will become an eventuality.
 
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L

I think your right but i also agree with what you said in the other posts "where will the money come from?"

We already know that the majority of the costs of IR med schools is shouldered by the foreign students. From some articles it suggests that 50-60 % of their budget comes form the likes of us. There is no way the IR schools can simply cut that by 25% and survive.

I think it is much more likely that this plan will occur over a period of time commensurate with increasing facilities and seats over all. Thereby you would have more IR student seats but maintain your income by not decreasing the international seats.

When i chatted with Mr. Keenan i got the distinct feeling that he had already looked into it. He suggested that this was a cyclic proposal and would have no impact on us at all. I dont really believe he has any reason to decieve. Sounds to me like this is the same thing hes heard about for years just a different melody.
 
Mike MacKinnon said:
OK

So i know you all are wondering the same thing as i am.

I decided that the only person I know who might have an idea about this situation was Mr Keenan from the Atlantic Bridge program. So I emailed him and asked. Here was the response.

Hello again Mr Keenan!

Sorry to bother you just had a couple of questions.

I read about the proposed new changes coming to the Ireland medical school system where there will be more slots for locals.

This is merely a proposal, Mike. Such proposals are made very few years.

Will that affect us and the slots open for people from North America?

No.

If so, will it take effect this year?

No, and it may never take effect. It is just a proposal.

Mike, I don't think the guy's being honest with you entirely. It won't take effect this year yes, but it will definitely the year after. It's got so much publicity in the Irish press now that if they pulled it it would be a PR disaster.

Ireland is a wealthy country now, a far cry from what it was like when I was growing up in the 1980's. If Ireland chose to fund more medical school places we could afford it; relying on international fees is not a necessity but rather is something that has come to pass in the past 20 years because the government refused to increase funding.

The way I see it is that they have to do a cost benefit analysis - is it cheaper to keep on the international students and build new facilities, or would it be more expedient to fund more Irish places and reduce the numbers going to international students.
 
dr strangelove said:
Mike, I don't think the guy's being honest with you entirely. It won't take effect this year yes, but it will definitely the year after. It's got so much publicity in the Irish press now that if they pulled it it would be a PR disaster.

Ireland is a wealthy country now, a far cry from what it was like when I was growing up in the 1980's. If Ireland chose to fund more medical school places we could afford it; relying on international fees is not a necessity but rather is something that has come to pass in the past 20 years because the government refused to increase funding.

The way I see it is that they have to do a cost benefit analysis - is it cheaper to keep on the international students and build new facilities, or would it be more expedient to fund more Irish places and reduce the numbers going to international students.

The vast majority of new spots will be coming from the NEW irish medical school. So either way the total number of non-EU spots won't be affected. The other thing that most of your are forgetting is that currently there are barely enough post-grad training positions. The majority of new funding will have to be directed to increasing those spots. Anyone familiar with the current expansions to the canadian medical system will know what i'm talking about. This is going to take YEARS to implement, no country can just magically double the number of med school spots.
The bottom line is: will these changes occur? yes. Will they all occur this year? not a chance. Will it drastically affect non-EU students? not really, we might lose like a dozen spots total. Oh, and most of this information comes straight from Peter K, I sat down and chatted with him about this last week at my RCSI intervew. So everyone just think warm thoughts and keep plugging away at getting in.

Cheers,
Jocks
 
Jocks said:
The vast majority of new spots will be coming from the NEW irish medical school.

New Irish medical school? I didn't read about that in the papers yet. Where's it being set up - University of Limerick I'm guessing?
 
OK, let me set some of this straight... To quote the Fottrell Report:

The Working Group recommends that the intake of EU students into Irish medical schools be increased from its current intake of about 305 per annum to approximately 725 students per annum on the following basis:
• The increased intake is phased over a four year period, commencing when the necessary preparatory arrangements have been introduced.
• By the end of this phased increase, there should be a 60:40 ratio between intake to the undergraduate and graduate programmes.
• In light of the current restriction on clinical training places, that the proportion of non-EU students entering clinical training should be no greater than 25% of total student intake by the end of the phased increase in EU students. This proportion should be maintained in the future, subject to ongoing review.


Of the 762 students admitted to Irish medical schools in 2003, 61% were non-EU. Over the next 4 years this will decrease to 25%. Limerick will create somewhere between 100-120 new places...although this remains to be seen. Do the maths...

These are FACTS and not heresay from the Atlantic Bridge.

The Department of Health's press release announcing the €200 million package of reforms of medical education and training:
http://www.dohc.ie/press/releases/2006/20060201.html

The Fottrell Report:
http://www.dohc.ie/publications/fottrell.html
 
Actually, come to think of it, it was Washington who did the whole cherry thing "I cannot tell a lie" thing -- but gwashington was already taken. DOH!

Anyway -- RCSI is going to fund these new "free Irish" spots by opening up a "four-year post graduate" degree -- i.e., 4 year medical degree, just like in the U.S.

Cost will be E40k and take will be 15 students a year. I'd imagine 600,000/yr would offset the cost of any "free Irish" the expansion requires them to take on, wot wot?

(personal aside: the Irish are required to get at least 580 points in their leaving cert to even HOPE for a chance of getting in to Surgeons unless they're very well connected. Students from the Middle/Far east, however, are required to get only 375. And what might the difference be between the two population$? Wonder what the tinkers (indigenous Irish itinerants to those of you not in the know) will be required to achieve -- RCSI plans on offering 3 full-ride scholarships per year to tinkers, starting next year)
 
alincoln said:
Actually, come to think of it, it was Washington who did the whole cherry thing "I cannot tell a lie" thing -- but gwashington was already taken. DOH!

Anyway -- RCSI is going to fund these new "free Irish" spots by opening up a "four-year post graduate" degree -- i.e., 4 year medical degree, just like in the U.S.

Cost will be E40k and take will be 15 students a year. I'd imagine 600,000/yr would offset the cost of any "free Irish" the expansion requires them to take on, wot wot?

(personal aside: the Irish are required to get at least 580 points in their leaving cert to even HOPE for a chance of getting in to Surgeons unless they're very well connected. Students from the Middle/Far east, however, are required to get only 375. And what might the difference be between the two population$? Wonder what the tinkers (indigenous Irish itinerants to those of you not in the know) will be required to achieve -- RCSI plans on offering 3 full-ride scholarships per year to tinkers, starting next year)

RCSI are nuts to think they can get away with charging E40K! That's what - $45K? Even Ivy League medical schools in the States don't charge that much! While I'm sure that there are Irish people out there with the money to pay for it, it's a complete rip-off. I imagine the entry requirements will be a joke, as anyone with some degree of sense and ability will simply go and study on the UK graduate programmes, where tuition fees will be a pittance compared to this. Ah, I must say personally I'm enjoying my free medical education in the UK. Beats the hell out of paying through the nose for it. :cool:

With regard to the RCSI outburst; let's just say my family is rather well connected with the college with several previous generations having attended and contributed financially to the college, but that didn't earn me any special treatment. No, AFAIK there are no exceptions for Irish people.

As for the foreign students, I already knew about the easier entry requirements, but I've just read your post on the other thread and I must say, I'm shocked (and in disbelief) about the advantages that foreign students get as they go through their degree. Can you back it up with anything? Why aren't the Irish students in uproar over this? I have to ask because I really, really can't believe that things are that shady...

It is a damning indictment of the Irish medical system if such behaviour actually takes place.

With regard to the Traveller's (I hate to sound PC, but could you please refrain from using the word 'tinker') I think that's ridiculous too. I oppose affirmative action in nearly all circumstances, and I can see no reason why there should be a case made for it here. Again, do you have a link where I can check this out? It's just I'm struggling to believe that RCSI is being altruistic. :D
 
dr strangelove said:
RCSI are nuts to think they can get away with charging E40K!

http://www.rcsi.ie/admissions/Graduate_Entry_Programme_(GEP)_to_Medicine/index.asp?id=24&pid=2078

It's the principal of moral hazard: the only people who'll borrow money at high interest rates are the people least likely to be able to repay it. I.e., your gambler or your risk-taker who just needs the money for this "one big score" and then he's back on top of the world.

Moral Hazard may also be applied to Surgeons applicants. If you hike the price of tuition over E40k , the only students willing to pay will be those students who didn't get in anywhere else.

RCSI therefore becomes a dumping ground for the rich and thick. Who in their right mind would pay $50k USD if they had an option somewhere else?

As for the Traveller scholarships, check out http://www.rcsi.ie/admissions/Graduate_Entry_Programme_(GEP)_to_Medicine/index.asp?id=24&pid=2078

Tiny snippet on the right-hand side.

Funny, I can't find anything about it on the RCSI website, but here it is tucked away in tiny article in an obscure HSE publication. Hrm.
 
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alincoln said:
http://www.rcsi.ie/admissions/Graduate_Entry_Programme_(GEP)_to_Medicine/index.asp?id=24&pid=2078

It's the principal of moral hazard: the only people who'll borrow money at high interest rates are the people least likely to be able to repay it. I.e., your gambler or your risk-taker who just needs the money for this "one big score" and then he's back on top of the world.

Moral Hazard may also be applied to Surgeons applicants. If you hike the price of tuition over E40k , the only students willing to pay will be those students who didn't get in anywhere else.

RCSI therefore becomes a dumping ground for the rich and thick. Who in their right mind would pay $50k USD if they had an option somewhere else?

As for the Traveller scholarships, check out http://www.rcsi.ie/admissions/Graduate_Entry_Programme_(GEP)_to_Medicine/index.asp?id=24&pid=2078

Tiny snippet on the right-hand side.

Funny, I can't find anything about it on the RCSI website, but here it is tucked away in tiny article in an obscure HSE publication. Hrm.

Cheers for the links, but the second one is just the first one reposted. ;)
 
dr strangelove said:
As for the foreign students, I already knew about the easier entry requirements, but I've just read your post on the other thread and I must say, I'm shocked (and in disbelief) about the advantages that foreign students get as they go through their degree. Can you back it up with anything?

Last year's 2nd professional Pathology Final consisted of 100MCQ and an essay paper. A week before the exam, word got round that the essay topic was going to be "Liver Cirrhosis."

And the topic was Liver Cirrhosis.

This year's 2nd professional exam Pathology final was also 100MCQ and an essay paper. A week before the exam, again, word got round that the essay topic was "Renal Cell Carcinoma."

And the topic was Renal Cell Carcinoma.

Turned out a Kuwaiti doctor had been leaking the essay topic to students -- I won't mention any names.. but wow. "Brown." Gets things done.

("Brown" = the foreign students -- RCSI can get pretty cliquey. A big we/they mentality exists and it's not uncommon for international students to have copies of past papers, topics for essays, OSCE questions in advance of an exam -- but somehow forget to share the info with the white kids. Everyone's very nice -- there's no bitterness or anything -- it's just kind of a black market in information exchange that white kids aren't necessarily privvy to..)

Ok, so students know the essay topic is Liver Cirrhosis. Everyone studies it (just in case) and absolutely OBLITERATE the topic, right?

Wrong.

Everyone studied it. Everyone wrote so much on the damn topic they were burrowing down into genetics. But the pathology department "adjusted" the essay grade.

See, the MCQ had been a repeat of past questions. That year, unbeknownst to the Pathology dept., RCSI instituted a policy of making past papers available to students. Students studied past papers, saw questions repeated VERBATIM on the MCQ and crushed it.

Average mark was 71/100 which is First Class Honors over here in auld Eire.

So the Pathology department, deciding that there was "no possible way the MEDIAN score in the class was a First Class Honors" marked people's essay grades more harshly, to compensate for "inflated marks" on their MCQ exam.

I received a failing mark. I went in to talk to the head of the department, she looked at my paper and said, "Ordinarily, this would be a 2:1 or First Class -- but we marked things down to compensate for the high MCQ grades. You don't honestly think every student in the class could earn first class honors, did you?"

"Ordinarily" this would have been an honors mark, instead it's a fail?

Regardless of what they actually score on an MCQ exam, "students can't be first class?" so we'll just jigger those scores down a bit?

They did the same thing this year on the Renal Cell Carcinoma essay. After receiving a failing mark, a friend of mine demanded to see his paper (they don't return papers back to you here -- just the mark) -- saw "EXCELLENT!" written across the top with the number "70!" circled in red pen.

Then crossed out and replaced with "60!".
Then crossed out and replaced with "45!"

Right, so from Excellent with first class honors, I've just been adjusted down to a failing mark? Burrito?
 
dr strangelove said:
It's just I'm struggling to believe that RCSI is being altruistic. :D

Altruistic my eye -- they're very into their reputation. Here was an opportunity to do a first -- give a full-ride scholarship to a "disadvantaged" community.

I'm surprised they didn't call it the "Indigenous Peoples of Ireland" scholarship!

Check out www.rcsitv.com if you want a good laugh.. Very up on themselves they are..
 
My personal (but educated) opinion is that the Irish (and Australian) medical schools will be more than pleased to have less American students enrolled in the immediate future. They survived without them twenty years ago and they will survive without them in the future. The Americans knocked on Irish doors like beggers for many, many years and then, when the doors were opened to them, they complained incessantly about the food they were given. What an arrogant, ugly, unappreciative lot! Alas, that is how the entire world perceives them.

Yours, etc.
 
leorl said:
I'd say it's far more than a proposal. It is an actual plan that will start to take shape. Trinners posted a good website about it in one of the threads, and it was in the papers last week. They might be optimistic about their proposed timeline and it would be nice to know a few more details, but this will become an eventuality.

I agree - this is definitely going to happen! My housemate is thinking of applying to the UCD grad course starting in September, and it looks like all sytems are go!

alincoln said:
Wonder what the tinkers (indigenous Irish itinerants to those of you not in the know) will be required to achieve -- RCSI plans on offering 3 full-ride scholarships per year to tinkers, starting next year)

Dude, I hope you mean that in a tongue in cheek, sarcastic kinda way, because it's a pretty offensive term! :thumbdown:

Out of interest, here's a few threads from an Irish boards site on medicine in Eire: might be of interest to some....

Grad Courses
General Course & Career Discussion
Discussion on the Workload, etc.
 
alincoln said:
Last year's 2nd professional Pathology Final consisted of 100MCQ and an essay paper. A week before the exam, word got round that the essay topic was going to be "Liver Cirrhosis."

And the topic was Liver Cirrhosis.

This year's 2nd professional exam Pathology final was also 100MCQ and an essay paper. A week before the exam, again, word got round that the essay topic was "Renal Cell Carcinoma."

And the topic was Renal Cell Carcinoma.

Turned out a Kuwaiti doctor had been leaking the essay topic to students -- I won't mention any names.. but wow. "Brown." Gets things done.

("Brown" = the foreign students -- RCSI can get pretty cliquey. A big we/they mentality exists and it's not uncommon for international students to have copies of past papers, topics for essays, OSCE questions in advance of an exam -- but somehow forget to share the info with the white kids. Everyone's very nice -- there's no bitterness or anything -- it's just kind of a black market in information exchange that white kids aren't necessarily privvy to..)

Ok, so students know the essay topic is Liver Cirrhosis. Everyone studies it (just in case) and absolutely OBLITERATE the topic, right?

Wrong.

Everyone studied it. Everyone wrote so much on the damn topic they were burrowing down into genetics. But the pathology department "adjusted" the essay grade.

See, the MCQ had been a repeat of past questions. That year, unbeknownst to the Pathology dept., RCSI instituted a policy of making past papers available to students. Students studied past papers, saw questions repeated VERBATIM on the MCQ and crushed it.

Average mark was 71/100 which is First Class Honors over here in auld Eire.

So the Pathology department, deciding that there was "no possible way the MEDIAN score in the class was a First Class Honors" marked people's essay grades more harshly, to compensate for "inflated marks" on their MCQ exam.

I received a failing mark. I went in to talk to the head of the department, she looked at my paper and said, "Ordinarily, this would be a 2:1 or First Class -- but we marked things down to compensate for the high MCQ grades. You don't honestly think every student in the class could earn first class honors, did you?"

"Ordinarily" this would have been an honors mark, instead it's a fail?

Regardless of what they actually score on an MCQ exam, "students can't be first class?" so we'll just jigger those scores down a bit?

They did the same thing this year on the Renal Cell Carcinoma essay. After receiving a failing mark, a friend of mine demanded to see his paper (they don't return papers back to you here -- just the mark) -- saw "EXCELLENT!" written across the top with the number "70!" circled in red pen.

Then crossed out and replaced with "60!".
Then crossed out and replaced with "45!"

Right, so from Excellent with first class honors, I've just been adjusted down to a failing mark? Burrito?

That's disgusting. Not the cheating aspect par se, we're a little guilty of it in Glasgow (usually some advice from the year higher up ;) ) but the casual racism between the different groups in RCSI. Everyone gets helped out in Glasgow - not directly maybe but you've got friends who know friends etc. and it reaches all those who want it in the end. We've got cliques, sure, but we don't divide along bloody racial lines! :eek:

You sound pretty bitter with the entire situation, but I can't say I blame you. I'd be unhappy even if I hadn't forked out $40K.
 
wow

Well again, alot of bad news essentially.

In truth, i could care less how good the institution is, a physician is created during residency not med school. All of the information in med school is readily avaliable to anyone with money for books or google.

Sadly, this just makes it harder to get in and decreases chances. Often the non-trads like myself who are not the 4.0 40 MCAT kids but have great experience and knowledge base get left out in the cold in the USA in regards to admissions comittees. Ireland represents a change in admissions for us, some weight placed on your previous job and experience as opposed to the USA where none is placed at all.

All i want to do is be a physician and it seems the one option where my Hx actually increases my chances is going away. Unfortunate.
 
Mike MacKinnon said:
wow

Well again, alot of bad news essentially.

In truth, i could care less how good the institution is, a physician is created during residency not med school. All of the information in med school is readily avaliable to anyone with money for books or google.

Sadly, this just makes it harder to get in and decreases chances. Often the non-trads like myself who are not the 4.0 40 MCAT kids but have great experience and knowledge base get left out in the cold in the USA in regards to admissions comittees. Ireland represents a change in admissions for us, some weight placed on your previous job and experience as opposed to the USA where none is placed at all.

All i want to do is be a physician and it seems the one option where my Hx actually increases my chances is going away. Unfortunate.

Hey, come on, keep your chin up man. As it's been pointed out this is only going to come in next year, and shouldn't effect your application this year. :)
 
That sounds really bad regarding RCSI practice, and I would hate to be at a place which rewarded who you knew and what race you happened to fall under, international or not. At my school, we try to all work together for the good of everyone, and things like that would not happen (ie. that sort of leaking, or grade deflation, etc.) I think if everyone did well on exams, they'd be delighted, but this sort of cheating defeats the purpose of trying to learn. I hope the doctor in question was "punished."

Anyway, just a reminder that I hope this anecdotal "evidence" especially recently is truthful and can be backed up. There's nothing wrong with stating true opinion, but we have to guard against libel.
 
A few things sound funny. Firstly, I'm not sure I know too many Irish, let alone foreign students, willing to pay 40k. If they want to see their enrollment double, they're going to have to do better than that. Also, that'd probably be way too expensive for governmental twinning programs that each university has...wonder what's going to happen there. Secondly, I hate to ask...but isn't offering medicine places (free or not) to Travellers a little optimistic? As far as I understand it, their education throughout childhood isn't the best, and so would their level of basic science knowledge be up-to-par? And if it isn't (i.e. they'll be allowed some academic leeway in terms of leaving cert points and school marks), how much will it differ from the regular Irish applicants' scores?
 
dontbsme said:
My personal (but educated) opinion is that the Irish (and Australian) medical schools will be more than pleased to have less American students enrolled in the immediate future. They survived without them twenty years ago and they will survive without them in the future. The Americans knocked on Irish doors like beggers for many, many years and then, when the doors were opened to them, they complained incessantly about the food they were given. What an arrogant, ugly, unappreciative lot! Alas, that is how the entire world perceives them.

Yours, etc.

Blah, blah, blah....more useless commentary. In fact, I imagine that your statement is somewhat offensive to Americans. However, it does not suprise me that you would express your ignorant, uneducated, and frankly racist opinion that is based on stereotypes about Americans. Then again, you are a product that has been molded by your current environment. Very pathetic.
 
alincoln said:
Last year's 2nd professional Pathology Final consisted of 100MCQ and an essay paper. A week before the exam, word got round that the essay topic was going to be "Liver Cirrhosis."

And the topic was Liver Cirrhosis.

This year's 2nd professional exam Pathology final was also 100MCQ and an essay paper. A week before the exam, again, word got round that the essay topic was "Renal Cell Carcinoma."

And the topic was Renal Cell Carcinoma.

Turned out a Kuwaiti doctor had been leaking the essay topic to students -- I won't mention any names.. but wow. "Brown." Gets things done.

I am a current RCSI student, and by no means an apologist for the administration. I agree with many of the points that were made in the other thread about the school. However, this is just ridiculous.

First of all, you didn't even get the essay titles in the Second Profs right. I checked with the old exams. Are you even a RCSI student?

RCSI administrators are open to charges of ineptitude, particularly in the clinical years. They are however not corrupt. If you have evidence to the contrary, you should contact Irish law enforcement instead of spreading slander on the internet.

This post should have been deleted by SDN moderators.
 
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