Academia is now paying a price for its silence

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hopefulgasman

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“Tom Cook drops bombs [USC Prisma Program Director] Note the call for ACEP/EM to cleanse itself of corporate influence. The Dean wants to know what happened to EM?

Cook: “we turned our heads away from the pernicious effect of corporate medicine””

Dr. McNamara was always right. Shame on everyone for shunning him for so long.

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Tom Cook drops bombs. Note the call for ACEP/EM to cleanse itself of corporate influence., the Dean wants to know what happened to EM?

Cook: “we turned our heads away from the pernicious effect of corporate medicine”

Dr. McNamara was always right. Shame on everyone for shunning him for so long.
Dr. Cook has been saying all this for years and has published previous articles of such. Organizations, mainly ACEP, have done nothing except collect checks and fellate CMGs further and will continue to do nothing.
 
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Strong article. Thanks for sharing.

I love this paragraph from him, especially the last line

“Once it became apparent that the 2023 match was a disaster, every professional EM organization put out a statement on Match Day about creating a task force to fix it. (March 13, 2023; Joint Statement on the Emergency Medicine 2023 Match Results.) This statement says some nice things about how they will “focus on solutions" and “support trainees." It is complete oatmeal.”
 
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Emergency Medicine, in the United States where health care is consumer-driven, urgent-care on demand run by businessmen, is unfixable. Anyone that says they can fix it for you, is lying.

It.

Can't.

Be.

Fixed.


You're still going to be the bad guy to an administrator who worries about losing $5 from a "customer" after a patient spits in your face because you didn't give them their "virus-killing" z-pak fast enough, at 4 am, after you took 5-minutes to cry-vomit in the bathroom after your second peds-death notification of the week.

A dollar in their pocket will always mean more to them than all the years of training, sacrifice, knowledge, science, your cumulative circadian-rhythm depression and all ethical concerns combined.

No amount of empty promises to "finally get serious about things" by anyone in EM will fix the that inherent, fatal flaw as long as the majority of Emergency Physicians remain trapped in EM without the leverage of the ability to earn a living outside of the ED.
 
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Emergency Medicine, in the United States where health care is consumer-driven, urgent-care on demand run by businessmen, is unfixable. Anyone that says they can fix it for you, is lying.

It.

Can't.

Be.

Fixed.


You're still going to be the bad guy to an administrator who worries about losing $5 from a "customer" after a patient spits in your face because you didn't give them their "virus-killing" z-pak fast enough, at 4 am, after you took 5-minutes to cry-vomit in the bathroom after your second peds-death notification of the week.

A dollar in their pocket will always mean more to them than all the years of training, sacrifice, knowledge, science, your cumulative circadian-rhythm depression and all ethical concerns combined.

No amount of empty promises to "finally get serious about things" by anyone in EM will fix the that inherent, fatal flaw as long as the majority of Emergency Physicians remain trapped in EM without the leverage of the ability to earn a living outside of the ED.
The only way this seems to be partially fixable is to create more exit strategies- such as pain- from EM.

I don't see academia or academics paying any price, though. They never do.
 
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Well said as always, birdstrike. Additionally, we are beholden to our colleagues and by slowing down to a less than breakneck pace, we screw our partners with filled up waiting rooms and patients waiting to be seen in the treatment area. The smart ones know this and use it to screw us and the dumb ones just assume we like seeing 2+ pph.

Tomorrow is doctors day, which is special because it’s the only day my employer refers to me as a doctor. Otherwise I’m a “provider”, ”caregiver” and in the executive meetings, a “FTE”. They are having a lunch but I’ll be too busy working to go. All the other docs at my little hospital will stop by before they head out for the weekend.

Just read the column - “Why are we importing doctors (IMG’s) into a specialty with a surplus of physicians? This is nuts” Well said!
 
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This is an existential crisis and academia has stuck their heads in the ground. They are ignorant or complicit, either is an absolute travesty.
 
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If I took 1.5 years to respond to a critical result, I would be out of a job. If I had a leadership position in this specialty and it took me 1.5 years to respond to a disastrous workforce report, I would resign. Keep in mind, this isn't even the actual crisis. This is the crisis BEFORE the actual crisis of oversupply. This is the part where we fill our specialty with foreign grads, low quality trainees. Eventually the compensation gets driven down by a perfect storm of A) Quality and B) Supply
 
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You can fox your career, you can fix your life, but you can’t fix EM.
 
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The only way this seems to be partially fixable is to create more exit strategies- such as pain- from EM.

I don't see academia or academics paying any price, though. They never do.
No, they won’t pay a price. They’ve already found their way out. It’s called “quiet quitting.”
 
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Medical University of South Carolina is putting out 10 EM residents a year.

His program is putting out 13 EM residents a year in Columbia.

There is probably another program or two in the state I don't know about.

Does South Caroline really need 23 new EM physicians a year?

I have to ask, did Dr Cook cut the number of residents in his program?

If not, his words are in the end no different than everyone else: "Someone" should do something.
 
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This and 100s of other articles are why any self respecting em doc shouldn’t give a shiny nickel to Acep. They need to be neutered. Their self important self congratulating nonsense needs to be stamped out.

It’s an org that doesn’t listen to outsiders. You have to serve and prove to them that you will fall in line. If not they shun you and ostracize you. Their method of running that crooked organization reminds me of that old video where hitler called out those who didn’t fall in line with him, he called them traitors in public and they were taken out and killed.

For those not familiar.

 
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Medical University of South Carolina is putting out 10 EM residents a year.

His program is putting out 13 EM residents a year in Columbia.

There is probably another program or two in the state I don't know about.

Does South Caroline really need 23 new EM physicians a year?

I have to ask, did Dr Cook cut the number of residents in his program?

If not, his words are in the end no different than everyone else: "Someone" should do something.
At least calling out the scourge that has long infiltrated Acep is a positive. I don’t know him or what he did.

Hca of course has a residency in South Carolina.

Seemingly from the match and common sense Michigan has too many programs.

Quick look shows South Carolina has 55 spots a year and 5.1M people.

Michigan has 244 spots. 10m people

Florida has 222 spots. 21m people.

I don’t think South Carolina is the problem.

Your broader point is fair. It’s also why we will be screwed.
 
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Also how the F are new programs still opening
 
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Medical University of South Carolina is putting out 10 EM residents a year.

His program is putting out 13 EM residents a year in Columbia.

There is probably another program or two in the state I don't know about.

Does South Caroline really need 23 new EM physicians a year?

I have to ask, did Dr Cook cut the number of residents in his program?

If not, his words are in the end no different than everyone else: "Someone" should do something.
Can you imagine being the first PD in the country to cut a single resident from your residency? Instead of 10, you have 9. If every program did this we might have a fighting chance to delay the inevitable. But you would be vilified by so many and have a target on your back by admin. To the average pit doc you’d be considered a hero and a hopeful trendsetter, but academians and other admin would try to find any reason to get rid of you.
 
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I doubt if programs will shrink or stop being accredited- it's not going to happen. But if EM developed as many fellowships as IM imagine the possibilities....
 
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The cat is out of the bag, no way to put it back. There is zero incentive for any program to cut positions. Cut position, decreased funding, more work for everyone.

The Programs will continue to open up, increase spots, take on FMGs.

Learn to swim faster than other EM docs. This is the only control you have in your life.

If you stick your head in the sand or hope for rainbows, look at your partner before/after your shift, he is already plotting to swim faster than you.
 
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Based on the experience we have with rad onc. No one will ever cut spots. Once the expansion starts it can’t be stopped. In a few years they’ll be junk “fellowships” and all of a sudden “research” will become the big buzz word. Get out now esp if you’re a resident.
 
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I would agree. If I were a resident, I would try and transfer to IM, FP, GS, peds, psych...any of these has a better career outlook.
 
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If FIRE is on top of your list, I would do the shortest residency. I see some subspecialty surgeons that takes 7-9 yrs to complete and pay isn't that much better. Crazy
 
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Just curious, why doesn't anyone think of neuro? Obviously I'm a little biased, but it's a great field, mid-level encroachment is certainly a lot less another field due to subject matter, and telestroke is great (work from home and pull in 600k+)
 
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Just curious, why doesn't anyone think of neuro? Obviously I'm a little biased, but it's a great field, mid-level encroachment is certainly a lot less another field due to subject matter, and telestroke is great (work from home and pull in 600k+)

The initial financial outlay of having to buy so many bow ties makes it a non-starter for me.
 
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Just curious, why doesn't anyone think of neuro? Obviously I'm a little biased, but it's a great field, mid-level encroachment is certainly a lot less another field due to subject matter, and telestroke is great (work from home and pull in 600k+)

I don’t think midlevel encroachment is less in neuro due to the subject matter. There are pediatric CT surgeons and nephrologists who rely on midlevels. I think it’s a bit of a red herring to posit that ‘harder’ specialties are more immune (and the idea that a specialty is harder or easier definitely plays into the hands of midlevel lobbying efforts). Neuro will become overrun too, just like all non procedural specialties (and eventually they will be more and more encroached on as well). The only ‘safe’ specialties are more non-clinical ones like path or rads that would require new training pathways for midlevels… although those will probably be devised soon enough too. That said, I loved neuro and wish I had done it. Neuro anatomy and the outdated idea that it’s ‘boring’ or that there are no treatment options for patients is hard to shake off even though it’s untrue.
 
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I don’t think midlevel encroachment is less in neuro due to the subject matter. There are pediatric CT surgeons and nephrologists who rely on midlevels. I think it’s a bit of a red herring to posit that ‘harder’ specialties are more immune (and the idea that a specialty is harder or easier definitely plays into the hands of midlevel lobbying efforts). Neuro will become overrun too, just like all non procedural specialties (and eventually they will be more and more encroached on as well). The only ‘safe’ specialties are more non-clinical ones like path or rads that would require new training pathways for midlevels… although those will probably be devised soon enough too. That said, I loved neuro and wish I had done it. Neuro anatomy and the outdated idea that it’s ‘boring’ or that there are no treatment options for patients is hard to shake off even though it’s untrue.

Yes certainly don't mean to imply that neuro is in any way "harder" than other specialties. It's just that neuro itself is a fairly isolated field from the rest of medicine....and midlevels get minimal to zero education to neuroscience/neuroanatomy and neurological conditions during their schooling. Like they'll learn that there are 12 cranial nerves and what a basic stroke looks like, but anything more in depth (neuromuscular, complex vascular neurology, neuroimmunology, epilepsy syndromes, etc) are things they may have never even heard of, much less learned anything about. So there's definitely a learning curve to midlevels trying to break in to neurology that I feel is more than other specialities, and the fact that we have minimal procedures that they could participate in (they certainly can't do EMG/NCS, or EEG reads), there is probably less of a financial incentive on their part as well.

But I agree....I think most if not all specialites are screwed in the long term, given enough time...neuro is not an exception.
 
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If FIRE is on top of your list, I would do the shortest residency. I see some subspecialty surgeons that takes 7-9 yrs to complete and pay isn't that much better. Crazy
EM has been most known as the FIRE specialty. Residency can be done in as little as 3 years (just like IM, FM, or peds) while national pay per hour until recently averaged around $200 per hour, which is comparable to higher paying specialties that usually have 5-7 years of training involved. Maybe new grads will find it harder to get $200 per hour out of residency while seeing a reasonable patient volume given the market saturation.
 
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Also how the F are new programs still opening
Gotta ask the ACGME since they pretty much control program slots and their funding for pretty much every residency in every specialty in the country. IIRC for legal reasons, ACGME is not allowed to deny any program from opening if they meet their minimum accreditation standards for their specialty (even if there's already a saturation). Any of the HCA or other no-name community programs that pop up can do so since they hired a PD that can show the ACGME the program meets their minimum requirements. The solution to combating rapid program expansion in specialties like EM or rad onc would require ACGME getting involved, and specifically they would have to raise accreditation standards for ALL programs in a given specialty so that less programs meet the standards.
 
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EM has been most known as the FIRE specialty. Residency can be done in as little as 3 years (just like IM, FM, or peds) while national pay per hour until recently averaged around $200 per hour, which is comparable to higher paying specialties that usually have 5-7 years of training involved. Maybe new grads will find it harder to get $200 per hour out of residency while seeing a reasonable patient volume given the market saturation.
FWIW, I haven't received a job offering less than $240 (which is still insanely low) for months aside from some extremely rural places and the pit that is NYC.
 
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I don’t think midlevel encroachment is less in neuro due to the subject matter. There are pediatric CT surgeons and nephrologists who rely on midlevels. I think it’s a bit of a red herring to posit that ‘harder’ specialties are more immune (and the idea that a specialty is harder or easier definitely plays into the hands of midlevel lobbying efforts). Neuro will become overrun too, just like all non procedural specialties (and eventually they will be more and more encroached on as well). The only ‘safe’ specialties are more non-clinical ones like path or rads that would require new training pathways for midlevels… although those will probably be devised soon enough too. That said, I loved neuro and wish I had done it. Neuro anatomy and the outdated idea that it’s ‘boring’ or that there are no treatment options for patients is hard to shake off even though it’s untrue.
Path, rads, and all surgeons are realistically "safe" from midlevels. Pediatric CT surgeons are not relying on midlevels. Writing a note and doing scut work are not the same as doing the actual job - surgery.
 
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Path, rads, and all surgeons are realistically "safe" from midlevels. Pediatric CT surgeons are not relying on midlevels. Writing a note and doing scut work are not the same as doing the actual job - surgery.
Any specialty with a decent amount of scut work involved on a day to day basis (ie work that doesn't involve real high-level medical knowledge or decision-making) will have a role for midlevels, since they usually aren't any worse at doing scut than physicians. Specialties like EM and hospitalist can be suspectable since they are not as highly specialized and their work is often done in consultation with other specialties.

In surgical specialties, you can't expect a PA or NP do perform the whole surgery themselves, but surgeons in their groups frequently hire them as extenders to do stuff like write notes for consults or round on post-op patients on the floor.

While studies have shown the downsides of using unsupervised midlevels in inpatient settings (eg higher resource utilization, more reliance on consults, longer length of stay) these problems can be mitigated by using only experienced midlevels. Some hospitals, for example, consider a hospitalist midlevel with 5+ years of experience as comparable to a junior attending that just graduated from residency. Hence experienced midlevels are very valuable since they are probably paid half as much or less per hour than a junior attending.

In the outpatient setting, midlevels may have more limited scope, since in non-emergent care patients have a choice of provider. Any many, especially those with means and better insurances, will specifically request to see only a physician and not a midlevel. Midlevels may therefore be providing more care to lower-income patients with poor insurance who probably don't have as much of a choice.

Agree that radiology and path are difficult for midlevels to be useful since there is minimal scut and every study requires high-level expertise and there is little room for error.
 
Any specialty with a decent amount of scut work involved on a day to day basis (ie work that doesn't involve real high-level medical knowledge or decision-making) will have a role for midlevels, since they usually aren't any worse at doing scut than physicians. Specialties like EM and hospitalist can be suspectable since they are not as highly specialized and their work is often done in consultation with other specialties.

In surgical specialties, you can't expect a PA or NP do perform the whole surgery themselves, but surgeons in their groups frequently hire them as extenders to do stuff like write notes for consults or round on post-op patients on the floor.

While studies have shown the downsides of using unsupervised midlevels in inpatient settings (eg higher resource utilization, more reliance on consults, longer length of stay) these problems can be mitigated by using only experienced midlevels. Some hospitals, for example, consider a hospitalist midlevel with 5+ years of experience as comparable to a junior attending that just graduated from residency. Hence experienced midlevels are very valuable since they are probably paid half as much or less per hour than a junior attending.

In the outpatient setting, midlevels may have more limited scope, since in non-emergent care patients have a choice of provider. Any many, especially those with means and better insurances, will specifically request to see only a physician and not a midlevel. Midlevels may therefore be providing more care to lower-income patients with poor insurance who probably don't have as much of a choice.

Agree that radiology and path are difficult for midlevels to be useful since there is minimal scut and every study requires high-level expertise and there is little room for error.

I believe that in the UK they have nonphysicians reading certain imaging exams.
 
Also plenty of pas doing IR.

Medicine is in for a major reshuffling. The ONLY positive for docs is the focus on corporate medicine will hopefully push that back to some degree. Similarly, the non compete thing if it passes and I am a skeptic would be huge. Hospitals and corporations are pipe feel like they owned us. They view us as indentured servants. Treat you like crap and if you leave you will be uprooting your family.
 
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Any specialty with a decent amount of scut work involved on a day to day basis (ie work that doesn't involve real high-level medical knowledge or decision-making) will have a role for midlevels, since they usually aren't any worse at doing scut than physicians. Specialties like EM and hospitalist can be suspectable since they are not as highly specialized and their work is often done in consultation with other specialties.

In surgical specialties, you can't expect a PA or NP do perform the whole surgery themselves, but surgeons in their groups frequently hire them as extenders to do stuff like write notes for consults or round on post-op patients on the floor.

While studies have shown the downsides of using unsupervised midlevels in inpatient settings (eg higher resource utilization, more reliance on consults, longer length of stay) these problems can be mitigated by using only experienced midlevels. Some hospitals, for example, consider a hospitalist midlevel with 5+ years of experience as comparable to a junior attending that just graduated from residency. Hence experienced midlevels are very valuable since they are probably paid half as much or less per hour than a junior attending.

In the outpatient setting, midlevels may have more limited scope, since in non-emergent care patients have a choice of provider. Any many, especially those with means and better insurances, will specifically request to see only a physician and not a midlevel. Midlevels may therefore be providing more care to lower-income patients with poor insurance who probably don't have as much of a choice.

Agree that radiology and path are difficult for midlevels to be useful since there is minimal scut and every study requires high-level expertise and there is little room for error.

If CT surgeons use midlevels for scut (postop checks, follow ups, etc) that was formerly done by other surgeons then there will be a decreased need for surgeons. True they do not perform entire surgeries unsupervised, however they are definitely doing big chunks of ‘non critical’ portions of surgeries in private practice, way beyond just closing and first assisting. Regardless, their scope in procedural specialties isn’t static and will continue to expand. There’s a big psychological hurdle in having midlevels take bigger roles in more major procedures but i don’t think it’s a cognitive barrier like it is for rads/path, more that surgeons are more territorial than hospitalists/EM docs and won’t allow it to happen, and the population won’t accept it right now. At the end of the day if private equity targets surgery (they will) then midlevel role will increase. Wouldn’t be surprised if surgeons are dealing with midlevels doing bigger procedures/surgeries in 20 years.
 
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If CT surgeons use midlevels for scut (postop checks, follow ups, etc) that was formerly done by other surgeons then there will be a decreased need for surgeons. True they do not perform entire surgeries unsupervised, however they are definitely doing big chunks of ‘non critical’ portions of surgeries in private practice, way beyond just closing and first assisting. Regardless, their scope in procedural specialties isn’t static and will continue to expand. There’s a big psychological hurdle in having midlevels take bigger roles in more major procedures but i don’t think it’s a cognitive barrier like it is for rads/path, more that surgeons are more territorial than hospitalists/EM docs and won’t allow it to happen, and the population won’t accept it right now. At the end of the day if private equity targets surgery (they will) then midlevel role will increase. Wouldn’t be surprised if surgeons are dealing with midlevels doing bigger procedures/surgeries in 20 years.
Doubt PE will have any realistic way into the surgical realm. Is it possible? Sure, anything is possible.
But we are already decades into corporatized medicine and the midlevel phenomenon. Entire specialities have been laid to waste. Yet we can’t point out a single PE firm replacing a surgeon with a midlevel in the OR. At this point I place a higher likelihood of total collapse of healthcare into a single payer singularity than I do with unlimited unopposed private equity takeover of the surgical space.

It’s honestly just a big cope by “cognitive” docs. Let’s face it. Technology has made information free and worthless, while culture has made intellectualism a faux pas. But at the end of the day it’s hard to replace the person taking a scalpel to your white matter.
 
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Doubt PE will have any realistic way into the surgical realm. Is it possible? Sure, anything is possible.
But we are already decades into corporatized medicine and the midlevel phenomenon. Entire specialities have been laid to waste. Yet we can’t point out a single PE firm replacing a surgeon with a midlevel in the OR. At this point I place a higher likelihood of total collapse of healthcare into a single payer singularity than I do with unlimited unopposed private equity takeover of the surgical space.

It’s honestly just a big cope by “cognitive” docs. Let’s face it. Technology has made information free and worthless, while culture has made intellectualism a faux pas. But at the end of the day it’s hard to replace the person taking a scalpel to your white matter.

Wholeheartedly agree with your second paragraph. People are not comfortable with a PA doing their brain surgery start to finish. But is there no universe where they accept a PA for their nerve biopsy? I agree that it’s a big psychological hurdle but I don’t see why it’s insurmountable. It just needs to become the norm and people will slowly accept it as reality. 40 years ago were people comfortable with a nurse with a couple extra years of school managing meemaw who’s in septic shock and multi organ failure in the ER? As for private equity, corporitization of EM took awhile to reach the inflection point where whole cities would become CMG wastelands. Weren’t there still several small groups in Denver, Austin, etc 10 years ago? I just don’t see an intrinsic barrier to corporitization of surgical practices and the guys with billions in their war chests seem like they’re probably going to win this time too, and not just pass over surgery groups while they decimate every non surgical specialty. I hope you’re right though.
 
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If the 500+ spots open were left unfilled, we might have had a fighting chance. The fact that all the spots are filled means there's no disincentive for CMGs from opening more residencies.


Can we call out the new PDs taking these jobs? I've yet to hear a ration reasoning for why they accepted these gigs.
 
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Wholeheartedly agree with your second paragraph. People are not comfortable with a PA doing their brain surgery start to finish. But is there no universe where they accept a PA for their nerve biopsy? I agree that it’s a big psychological hurdle but I don’t see why it’s insurmountable. It just needs to become the norm and people will slowly accept it as reality. 40 years ago were people comfortable with a nurse with a couple extra years of school managing meemaw who’s in septic shock and multi organ failure in the ER? As for private equity, corporitization of EM took awhile to reach the inflection point where whole cities would become CMG wastelands. Weren’t there still several small groups in Denver, Austin, etc 10 years ago? I just don’t see an intrinsic barrier to corporitization of surgical practices and the guys with billions in their war chests seem like they’re probably going to win this time too, and not just pass over surgery groups while they decimate every non surgical specialty. I hope you’re right though.
I mean, no hurdle is insurmountable, and no scenario is impossible. Heck, we could all be living in the Matrix in 50 years.

But I rather engage in what's realistic and likely given current market landscape. Midlevels came about decades ago not because of hospitals, insurance companies, PE, or any other boogieman. They came about because our non-surgical predecessors saw an arbitrage opportunity where midlevels were reimbursed the same as a physician, and there was quite a large shortage of doctors. PCPs had full panels. Dermatologists had a 9 month wait. There weren't enough anesthesia providers. The first midlevel I can ever recall seeing as a patient was in a private family medicine group.

But now, I would argue that there is essentially no shortage on the healthcare delivery side of things, except very rural areas. Even in my semi-rural city of 40-50k, the surgeons here are already complaining of competition and lower than desired surgical volumes. This must be even worse in major metros. Therefore, it would be impossible for any surgeon to try to "farm out" his/her surgeries to a midlevel for this trend to start.

Now, the only scenario where I see midlevel doing surgeries would be if healthcare becomes socialized, and reimbursement stops being fee for service. At that point, surgeons would engage in Olympic level mental gymnastics to TRY to offload work onto midlevels, while claiming that many of the surgeries are safe in a midlevel's hands.
 
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So there's definitely a learning curve to midlevels trying to break in to neurology that I feel is more than other specialities, and the fact that we have minimal procedures that they could participate in (they certainly can't do EMG/NCS, or EEG reads), there is probably less of a financial incentive on their part as well.
You’re mistaken if you think that non-doctors don’t do EMG/NCS. There is a “Doctor of Physical Therapy” right around the corner from me who does them. He tells patients that he has done 10,000 of them in his career and that no one does them as well as him.
 
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Midlevels are just out competing doctors. An RN who just graduates and works two years and does NP while working compared to a college graduate who works and knows the ins and outs of a job in three years vs a MD who when an intern everyone jokes about how dangerous they are.

At UCLA family med there are rotations that Family Med resident has to be supervised from a PA. Sure on forums we win all the arguments on paper but in real life if we were truly so superior why can they displace us so much?

NPs can do psych, ED. Family and they also do Derm.
 
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The best ABEM certification to have is one you don’t need.
 
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You’re mistaken if you think that non-doctors don’t do EMG/NCS. There is a “Doctor of Physical Therapy” right around the corner from me who does them. He tells patients that he has done 10,000 of them in his career and that no one does them as well as him.

Yeah even Mayo has an EMG course with a target audience including “NP, PA, RN”
 
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I assume EMG is a test that someone, somewhere still uses for something? Besides revenue generation of course.
 
The surgeons on here have it all wrong. Yep the mlps won’t be doing the surgeries but they will be doing all the other stuff. Surgeons will be procedure( except ones the mlps “can” do) / surgery monkeys. That in itself will lead to needing fewer surgeons. That might be great.

For super specialized stuff no one will replace the surgeon but is doing an appy that hard? A chole? Most Ortho surgeries?

Have 1 doc supervise a bunch of mlps doing these things and there for backup / when things go wrong. Heart caths? When I was a resident the cards guy let me cath some patients. I was like. Umm that’s it? Wasn’t some super difficult procedure. IR will encroach more and more in general surgery and hence more mlp replacement.

Don’t be fooled. Only hope is to own your own practice
 
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The surgeons on here have it all wrong. Yep the mlps won’t be doing the surgeries but they will be doing all the other stuff. Surgeons will be procedure( except ones the mlps “can” do) / surgery monkeys. That in itself will lead to needing fewer surgeons. That might be great.

For super specialized stuff no one will replace the surgeon but is doing an appy that hard? A chole? Most Ortho surgeries?

Have 1 doc supervise a bunch of mlps doing these things and there for backup / when things go wrong. Heart caths? When I was a resident the cards guy let me cath some patients. I was like. Umm that’s it? Wasn’t some super difficult procedure. IR will encroach more and more in general surgery and hence more mlp replacement.

Don’t be fooled. Only hope is to own your own practice

But but but what about that retrocecal appendix? Lmao
 
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Just curious, how do other fields prevent new programs from being created out of proportion to their demand? Does Dermatology have such strict program requirements that new programs can't be started in any but the most urban settings? Does any specialty have criteria for opening a new program such that new programs aren't allowed to be opened due to insufficient demand?
 
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