Academic dilemma...possible expulsion from Ivy League school

BU Medical Sciences
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Retsage said:
I disagree. A 3.93 is meaningless if she is a proven cheater. If she got caught once, the question becomes what percentage of her GPA is legit due to hard work and intelligence, and what percentage is due to all those times she cheated but didn't get caught? She can claim that it was the only time she cheated, but she has already shown herself lacking in integrity - why would anyone trust her word?
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/seconded.

If she cheats for 2pts, who would believe she doesn't risk everything for an even bigger gain? Like 50pts?

She completely invalidated her GPA. She might as well have a 2.0.
 
This is probably the last place you want to come for advice on this topic - these pre-meds are sooo harsh.

Either way, OP, your "friend" will still most definitely have a shot at getting into medical school. They will not refuse someone with awesome stats because of an extremely minor infraction, as well as the rest of her application is strong and she has a personality and can therefore dominate interviews (though I have heard ad com's are strict on cheaters). If given an opportunity to explain her situation I think she will be fine. What she needs to be more concerned about in my opinion is her F in chem, and getting back into school. I believe AMCAS takes your lowest score whether you retake a course or not, so that will definately hinder her GPA.

I also had a few "blemishes" on my application yet I still received multiple MD acceptences (3.7 gpa 33 MCAT, strong upward trend). Just explain your situation during your interview and make sure they know you are remoursful about it (assuming you or "she" is/are). She may not be able to get into a top school who is looking for perfect applicants, but as long as shes ok with a tier 2-3 school I believe she will be fine.

Point of the story - medical schools do not look for reasons to refuse applicants they like (those with high GPA/MCAT and good interviews, EC's etc.), especially if you apply to a tier 3 school with avg. GPA's of 3.5-3.6.

PS. We all know your friend is actually you, and I didn't have a cheating infraction on my record but I did have legal issues.
 
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pianola said:
Yeah, point taken.

But at the same time, in applying to medical school, I don't think the offender will have to explain the scenario in more depth than "expelled for dishonesty on an assignment".

I mean, if she DOES explain it in more depth, then she's compounding dishonesty with stupidity. Well...even more stupidity.

And, she still has a 3.93 (perhaps this will be brought down slightly by the F). So she's not uncompetitive grade-wise...
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Usually, in cases of an expulsion or extended suspension, the university will have official documentation of the events surrounding it and the reasons why. When you apply through AMCAS, you have to explain any institutional action that's been taken against you and you will have to get an official letter from your university sent to the school you're applying to. Basically, she's not going to be able to hide the circumstances even if she tried.
 
TooMuchResearch said:
There are programs that give out a 4.3 on a 4.0 scale? ...Or is it a 4.3 scale?
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It's on a 4.0 scale.

Retsage said:
Pianola, I disagree. A 3.93 is meaningless if she is a proven cheater. If she got caught once, the question becomes what percentage of her GPA is legit due to hard work and intelligence, and what percentage is due to all those times she cheated but didn't get caught? She can claim that it was the only time she cheated, but she has already shown herself lacking in integrity - why would anyone trust her word?
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Yeah. I guess I've just seen proven cheaters get into Ivy undergrads and Ivy med schools. So I keep thinking "how bad can it actually be for this girl?" I guess every school treats the issue differently, though.

I have no personal experience with this kind of situation myself, so maybe I shouldn't be a judge of what will happen in the future...
 
Santa333 said:
This is probably the last place you want to come for advice on this topic - these pre-meds are sooo harsh.

Either way, OP, your "friend" will still most definitely have a shot at getting into medical school. They will not refuse someone with awesome stats because of an extremely minor infraction, as well as the rest of her application is strong and she has a personality and can therefore dominate interviews (though I have heard ad com's are strict on cheaters). If given an opportunity to explain her situation I think she will be fine. What she needs to be more concerned about in my opinion is her F in chem, and getting back into school. I believe AMCAS takes your lowest score whether you retake a course or not, so that will definately hinder her GPA.

I also had a few "blemishes" on my application yet I still received multiple MD acceptences (3.7 gpa 33 MCAT, strong upward trend). Just explain your situation during your interview and make sure they know you are remoursful about it (assuming you or "she" is/are). She may not be able to get into a top school who is looking for perfect applicants, but as long as shes ok with a tier 2-3 school I believe she will be fine.

Point of the story - medical schools do not look for reasons to refuse applicants they like (those with high GPA/MCAT and good interviews, EC's etc.), especially if you apply to a tier 3 school with avg. GPA's of 3.5-3.6.

PS. We all know your friend is actually you, and I didn't have a cheating infraction on my record but I did have legal issues.
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First, all of her "awesome stats" are called into question because you can't know that she didn't cheat in other classes as well. Second, I wouldn't call being expelled or suspended for multiple semesters a "minor infraction." Is it conceivable that she could gain admission to medical school? Sure, but she better have one hell of an explanation and probably complete several years of penance beforehand. Personally, I don't think it's gonna happen.

Like I said earlier, the cheating here is worse because of how stupid she looks for taking such an unnecessary risk for zero gain. That's a bad trait to have as a doctor.
 
aznb0y129 said:
Usually, in cases of an expulsion or extended suspension, the university will have official documentation of the events surrounding it and the reasons why. When you apply through AMCAS, you have to explain any institutional action that's been taken against you and you will have to get an official letter from your university sent to the school you're applying to. Basically, she's not going to be able to hide the circumstances even if she tried.
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Ah, see, I didn't know that. Well...that's not so good for her I guess.

2 points. Wow. That's a lot to lose over 2 points.
 
Santa333 said:
PS. We all know your friend is actually you, and I didn't have a cheating infraction on my record but I did have legal issues.
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As much as I appreciate the assumption, it is not me. Thanks for your concern though. Take a look at my previous posts. I've been accepted to a few schools already and graduated from college last year.

I'm simply concerned....as much as she was my friend, she was my advisee when she was a freshman and I was a junior. Guess I didn't advise her too well!!! haha
 
HeatherMD said:
she's ****ed.

And the photocopying of exams is not uncommon.. a few profs I have had have done the same -- though they also have the policy that submitting an exam for re-grade, subjects the ENTIRE exam to a re-grade, and more often than not, while the prof will throw those extra points at the question you think you deserve them on, they will also REMOVE points from other questions where you were marked leniently.

I don't think she has a shot at medical school, and frankly, I don't think she deserves one. I know that's super-harsh, but I've always assumed it's just a well-accepted fact that cheating will ruin your life.
At my school, cheating results in an F8 on your transcript. The 8 designates academic dishonesty, and COMPLETELY disqualifies you from professional or graduate school, and more so, you are NOT ALLOWED to take ANY further courses from the entire department! If she cheated in Chemistry here and was caught like that, she would be ban't!

Like I said, you're friend is ****ed -- and she totally earned it.
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So true. This person doesn't deserve to go to med school.
 
If she would cheat for 2 inconsequential points, God knows what she would do when it involved something that actually mattered.

I think that's what might crush her the most, as well as the questionability of her GPA as a result of the incident.
 
sounds kinda fishy to me. I mean most kids at ivy league schools take chem before their junior year, especially if they major in biology; they'd be behind otherwise. Perhaps the OP should have used organic chemistry as an example...
 
Santa333 said:
This is probably the last place you want to come for advice on this topic - these pre-meds are sooo harsh.

Either way, OP, your "friend" will still most definitely have a shot at getting into medical school. They will not refuse someone with awesome stats because of an extremely minor infraction, as well as the rest of her application is strong and she has a personality and can therefore dominate interviews (though I have heard ad com's are strict on cheaters). If given an opportunity to explain her situation I think she will be fine. What she needs to be more concerned about in my opinion is her F in chem, and getting back into school. I believe AMCAS takes your lowest score whether you retake a course or not, so that will definately hinder her GPA.

I also had a few "blemishes" on my application yet I still received multiple MD acceptences (3.7 gpa 33 MCAT, strong upward trend). Just explain your situation during your interview and make sure they know you are remoursful about it (assuming you or "she" is/are). She may not be able to get into a top school who is looking for perfect applicants, but as long as shes ok with a tier 2-3 school I believe she will be fine.

Point of the story - medical schools do not look for reasons to refuse applicants they like (those with high GPA/MCAT and good interviews, EC's etc.), especially if you apply to a tier 3 school with avg. GPA's of 3.5-3.6.

PS. We all know your friend is actually you, and I didn't have a cheating infraction on my record but I did have legal issues.
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I hope that this is true for the OP's sake.

I don't think medical school is impossible for you at this point, OP, so don't give up if it is still what you want to do.
 
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People, you accuse the offender of having no perspective, and you are completely right. What she did was a serious breach of trust to obtain virtually no gain. However, you must understand her, and indeed all of our, circumstances. Perfection is expected and demanded every minute of every day. We must obtain superb grades semester after semester with little margin for error.

Although it is true she did not have the perspective she needed that day, it is clear that many of the people on this board are suffering from the same problem. Many of us are ready to damn her to hell, saying that what she did was unforgivable. However, take time to think about exactly what it was that she did. She changed one answer on a single test, an act that took perhaps a minute. It was juvenile mistake, one that showed a lack of maturity.

College is a place of learning. It is here that we not only explore academic disciplines, but learn who we are as people and grow morally. This girl did not know the consequences of her actions, and she should not be burned at the stake for the slightest of sins. Instead, she should be taught. Perhaps this teaching would involve failing the class and having to retake to prove herself.

However, it would be even better to turn this into something good. She seems to be a brilliant student with many gifts. Instead of destroying her future as a physician, require her to serve as a tutor for those who need help or as a academic honesty speaker to new students at the university.

Take time and remember what it is that we come to do at college. Do not be the first to stone a girl in need of our help and support.
 
Here, here! :thumbup:

You got a 43 on teh MCAT, so I has to agree with you.
 
Senator Ted Stevens can almost gain reelection for the senate after being a convicted felon. Look at the society we live in. I'm not condoning it, but why are premed students expected to be up on a Greek pedestal?
 
aznb0y129 said:
First, all of her "awesome stats" are called into question because you can't know that she didn't cheat in other classes as well. Second, I wouldn't call being expelled or suspended for multiple semesters a "minor infraction." Is it conceivable that she could gain admission to medical school? Sure, but she better have one hell of an explanation and probably complete several years of penance beforehand. Personally, I don't think it's gonna happen.

Like I said earlier, the cheating here is worse because of how stupid she looks for taking such an unnecessary risk for zero gain. That's a bad trait to have as a doctor.
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I agree she was quite foolish, and hilarious at the same time. But I'm sorry to say people on this forum do not typically think realistic, they think pessimistic. Medical schools will not look at a 3.92 GPA and say "this is invalid because she had one minor cheating infraction on her record", I'm sorry that is not how life works. SDN posters over analyze these situation so incredibly much, its insane. I remember reading about 75 different people say if you have a criminal record, you will have to be an incredibly awesome applicant to get into allopathic medical school (which is simply put absolutely not true). This is the same situation, and if the student can explain her situation and make up for it with strong stats and a good interview she will be fine.

Alot of pre meds who come here are fairly dedicated pre meds. I know how it is, and as pre med we tend to get obsessed with medical school admission and read time and time again about how difficult medical school admission is. Thus we believe that a blemish on our application will significantly hinder our chances, but thats not how it is. I was in a somewhat similar situation and still got accepted so I know first hand how it works.

Again, to the OP. Your friend needs to be much more concerned with an F on her transcript and what will happen to her GPA because of it. If she can get back up to a 3.9 GPA with a strong MCAT she will be fine.
 
I think I know exactly who you are talking about. I go to that same institution and there is a little more to the story than you tell. The issue of cheating was first discussed in by the orgo lab TAs because people had been buying pure product offline and replacing their "synthesized" prodcut with this authentic product. After that was discovered, the whole chemistry department cracked down on all types of cheating. She will be fine, although conflicting stories have been circulating campus for days now.

To add....from what I understand, the TAs and professors asked her to stay after class in front of a class of about 80 to discuss some discrepencies between her original test and the regrade. That is how she found out the prof had caught on.
 
I don't feel bad for "her".
Integrity is the name of game.
She deserves expulsion who knows how many tests she has done this on and for how long she has been doing this. Is this how she got into the Ivy league school.

BTW I dont ****ing care if it is Harvard or community college it should not matter. Tell her to stop cheating and maybe she can get into a chiropractic school.
 
bka6827 said:
Here is a pre-med dilemma for you all.....

One of my ex-classmates has a 3.93 at an Ivy League university. She is a junior and a biology major/pre-med. Two weeks ago, she received a grade of 96 on her chemistry midterm, but she needed a 98 to receive an A+. She decided to cheat and change a two point question to the correct answer when she received the exam back and submit it for a regrade. Unknown to her, the professor had photocopied the original exam and compared her original to the regrade and they were different. She was immediately placed on academic probation and the honor council decided to give her a harsh punishment to set an example for other students who would consider cheating. She will either:
(A) be expelled or
(B) fail her chemistry class, withdraw from all of her classes this semester, and be suspended for two extra semesters (Spring and Fall 2009)

She still expressed hopes of returning to her original college (if she is not expelled). If she is, she will finish up her undergraduate career at another college. She desperately wants to be a physician and is a deeply empathetic person, but with this large stain on her record, is there ANY REMOTE CHANCE she could get into an allopathic medical school or will this essentially prevent her from that?
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She definitely has a chance to get in- as long as she doesn't screw up again and everything else about her application is fine. She has a longer road ahead of her and she made her life much more difficult, but failing a single class even for cheating will not automatically exclude you.
 
Great slippery slope argument there. "If she did it on one, she probably did it on all her tests!" It's a terrible assumption. This could easily be a one-time deal, and until proof is offered, I would not be willing to hear a word of someone claiming that she cheats all the time.

Do you guys seriously think that someone who cheats to go from a 96 to a 98 seriously needs to cheat all the time?
 
PremedIowa said:
Great slippery slope argument there. "If she did it on one, she probably did it on all her tests!" It's a terrible assumption. This could easily be a one-time deal, and until proof is offered, I would not be willing to hear a word of someone claiming that she cheats all the time.

Do you guys seriously think that someone who cheats to go from a 96 to a 98 seriously needs to cheat all the time?
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Yeah...more so than someone who added two points to a 65 to a 67 (that would be stupid). Adding two points when you already have an A just to go to an A+ shows that you will probably do it all the time.

Songs I want to serenade her with

Na na na na
na na na na
Hey Hey Hey
GOOOOODDDDDBBBBYYYYYEEEE!!!!

Or

Another one bites the dust!
 
I love all the strong pre-medical opinions on an admissions issue. I'd love to hear someone with a similar story who was or wasn't admitted or better yet, have LizzyM make a comment about this.
 
wow, that would SUCK.

sure, it is bad to cheat... but youve gotta feel bad for her!
 
Can you please explain to me how changing her score from a 96 to a 98 means she has cheated many previous times? I don't understand sorry. I would rather have a Doctor with one minor cheating infraction on her record then some uptight, unsocial doctor with zero social skills (which is how alot of people who post here come off as) who will offer me no comfort because they lack the ability to empathize with my terminal illness.

Sorry, but if I were interviewing someone, I would much rather take an applicant with good stats who had a blemish on their application than an applicant who was a d***. And I believe most medical schools are the same way.
 
sankondbest said:
Songs I want to serenade her with

Na na na na
na na na na
Hey Hey Hey
GOOOOODDDDDBBBBYYYYYEEEE!!!!

Or

Another one bites the dust!
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sankondbest said:
I don't feel bad for "her".
Integrity is the name of game.
She deserves expulsion who knows how many tests she has done this on and for how long she has been doing this. Is this how she got into the Ivy league school.

BTW I dont ****ing care if it is Harvard or community college it should not matter. Tell her to stop cheating and maybe she can get into a chiropractic school.
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Demas567 said:
So true. This person doesn't deserve to go to med school.
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HeatherMD said:
/seconded.

If she cheats for 2pts, who would believe she doesn't risk everything for an even bigger gain? Like 50pts?

She completely invalidated her GPA. She might as well have a 2.0.
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LOL.... btw, some of you are complete savages

twitter-cat-403.jpg
 
fizzle said:
It's "hear, hear!" This is the third time I've corrected that on SDN, and I will keep doing so until everyone knows the correct version! ;)
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Thank you! I did not know that!
 
cbrons said:
LOL.... btw, some of you are complete savages

twitter-cat-403.jpg
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I believe someone in the non-trad forum described pre-allo saying "Beware, there are some psychotic little bastards in pre-allo".
 
wow...just wow...
you're friend has issues and I'm sure she's deeply regrets what happened. That's what you get for playing with fire. People get away with cheating all the time...you're screwed if you ever get caught though. Academic fraud is no joke.
 
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bka6827 said:
Here is a pre-med dilemma for you all.....

One of my ex-classmates has a 3.93 at an Ivy League university. She is a junior and a biology major/pre-med. Two weeks ago, she received a grade of 96 on her chemistry midterm, but she needed a 98 to receive an A+. She decided to cheat and change a two point question to the correct answer when she received the exam back and submit it for a regrade. Unknown to her, the professor had photocopied the original exam and compared her original to the regrade and they were different. She was immediately placed on academic probation and the honor council decided to give her a harsh punishment to set an example for other students who would consider cheating. She will either:
(A) be expelled or
(B) fail her chemistry class, withdraw from all of her classes this semester, and be suspended for two extra semesters (Spring and Fall 2009)

She still expressed hopes of returning to her original college (if she is not expelled). If she is, she will finish up her undergraduate career at another college. She desperately wants to be a physician and is a deeply empathetic person, but with this large stain on her record, is there ANY REMOTE CHANCE she could get into an allopathic medical school or will this essentially prevent her from that?
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Go to the AUC or something. Study medicine outa the country and come back take ur USMLE and score well, get a residency in the middle of idaho or something lol. But for 2 points!!!!!!!! holy crap that is crazy lol. the things ppl will do lol
 
Sublimation said:
Go to the AUC or something. Study medicine outa the country and come back take ur USMLE and score well, get a residency in the middle of idaho or something lol. But for 2 points!!!!!!!! holy crap that is crazy lol. the things ppl will do lol
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Oh that just reminded me! Why not med school in Israel or something?
 
pianola said:
I believe someone in the non-trad forum described pre-allo saying "Beware, there are some psychotic little bastards in pre-allo".
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yeah.. im afraid when i get to med school, im not going to meet anyone i like... theyre all going to be overly zealous study monsters with no personality or empathy.

on the other hand, i hope theres at least some hotties bc i think the no-nonsense bookworm ones with glasses are sexxxxxyyyy :luck::horns::idea:
 
Santa333 said:
I would rather have a Doctor with one minor cheating infraction on her record then some uptight, unsocial doctor with zero social skills (which is how alot of people who post here come off as) who will offer me no comfort because they lack the ability to empathize with my terminal illness.

Sorry, but if I were interviewing someone, I would much rather take an applicant with good stats who had a blemish on their application than an applicant who was a d***. And I believe most medical schools are the same way.
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Why must the two be mutually exclusive? Why do you insist on painting the world in terms of black and white? I haven't taken any position in this debate on cheating, but I had to pop in to say, comparisons like this rarely apply in the real world! In addition, there is a difference between empathizing with someone who has a terminal illness (through no fault of his/her own) as opposed to with someone whose situation is brought about completely by his/her own doings.

Please don't take my post too seriously or as a criticism; I'm just in a bit of a debatatory mood (yes, a word I made up) right now. :p

PS: Though cheating is wrong, I do really understand the temptation that comes from wanting such a small thing! It is unfortunate for the girl that she chose wrongly, but it doesn't show that she's a bad person--only that the situation led her to succumb to temptation. I am all too aware of the difference between real-life actions and righteous words, so I am loathe to criticize her too much.
 
The lack of empathy among the pre meds who post here amazes me. Most of us know what it is like to be obsessed with medical school admission, and how we would do anything to gain it. Imagine having that passion potentially taken away from you - how would you feel? Do you know nothing of empathy?

For those of you who posted here condeming the OP's friend to hell (ie. the NA NA NA child), you obviously lack an innate empathitic emotion, and will thus probably not make all that great of a doctor.

Yes I know, being empathetic to someone who unvoluntarily gets diagnosed with cancer is alot easier than being empathetic to someone who made the poor decision to cheat, but the fact of the matter is if you are inately empathetic (which is the quality of a great doctor) you will feel sorry for the OP's friend because you know just what it would be like to have your dreams potentially taken away from you.

OP, no one here is perfect, even those who condem your friend. Though I mentioned the potential impossibility of your friend achieving her dreams, I do not believe that is the case. She will be fine, she just needs to get back on track and start moving forward.

Sorry for the typos, I'm tired.
 
HeatherMD said:
she's ****ed.

And the photocopying of exams is not uncommon.. a few profs I have had have done the same -- though they also have the policy that submitting an exam for re-grade, subjects the ENTIRE exam to a re-grade, and more often than not, while the prof will throw those extra points at the question you think you deserve them on, they will also REMOVE points from other questions where you were marked leniently.

I don't think she has a shot at medical school, and frankly, I don't think she deserves one. I know that's super-harsh, but I've always assumed it's just a well-accepted fact that cheating will ruin your life.
At my school, cheating results in an F8 on your transcript. The 8 designates academic dishonesty, and COMPLETELY disqualifies you from professional or graduate school, and more so, you are NOT ALLOWED to take ANY further courses from the entire department! If she cheated in Chemistry here and was caught like that, she would be ban't!

Like I said, you're friend is ****ed -- and she totally earned it.
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The majority of your posts when we discuss other topics are always extremely "liberal" and what I'd classify as a bleeding heart (supporting welfare, universal healthcare, etc). However, when we discuss a topic like this, you suddenly turn super conservative and want to damn the rest of this girls life for cheating. Why? People make mistakes, and they should not have to pay for the rest of their lives for one small error in judgement. The moral superiority that permeates throughout your postings is indicative of someone who has not lived in the real world and has a loose grip on reality. You live in this sheltered little world where you masquerade pretending to be a compassionate liberal, and then your true colors come out on SDN with your snide judgemental remarks towards someone you have never met, and have no basis with which to make a character analysis other then a short posting about one infraction.

People have also tried to make an analogy between cheating when the stakes are only 2 points, and what the person might do when its for something more important. That is ridiculous to try to make the link between the two. There are many instances where people will do something wrong BECAUSE the stakes are relatively low, and then will do the right thing or refrain from an offense BECAUSE the stakes are much higher. In the grand scheme of things, cheating for 2 points is a relatively inconsequential offense, you will not be put in jail for 10 years, you will not be fined $100,000, and you will not have to register in your neighborhood wherever you go under the 18 USC:41-5 "Neurotic Judgemental Premed Act of 2008."

Instead of trying to ostracize these people who make errors in judgement, we ought to try and understand the system that we created which put the pressure on them to err in judgement the way they did. It would work under the same logic we use that allows physicians with substance abuse problems to seek treatment/help from their employers rather than firing them or taking away their license to practice.
 
fizzle said:
Why must the two be mutually exclusive? Why do you insist on painting the world in terms of black and white?
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I was just doing the same thing that people who assumed she cheated most of her academic career were doing.

Would you not be empathetic to a patient who smoked two packs a day in their life and now has lung cancer because of it? I bet the patient would sure as hell want a doctor who is.
 
ai
Santa333 said:
The lack of empathy among the pre meds who post here amazes me. Most of us know what it is like to be obsessed with medical school admission, and how we would do anything to gain it. Imagine having that passion potentially taken away from you - how would you feel? Do you know nothing of empathy?

For those of you who posted here condeming the OP's friend to hell (ie. the NA NA NA child), you obviously lack an innate empathitic emotion, and will thus probably not make all that great of a doctor.

Yes I know, being empathetic to someone who unvoluntarily gets diagnosed with cancer is alot easier than being empathetic to someone who made the poor decision to cheat, but the fact of the matter is if you are inately empathetic (which is the quality of a great doctor) you will feel sorry for the OP's friend because you know just what it would be like to have your dreams potentially taken away from you.

OP, no one here is perfect, even those who condem your friend. Though I mentioned the potential impossibility of your friend achieving her dreams, I do not believe that is the case. She will be fine, she just needs to get back on track and start moving forward.

Sorry for the typos, I'm tired.
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like i said, theyre all savages. im gunna have fun with it tho. im gunna be the bully in med school and mess with these types of no-nonsense kids in harmless but nonetheless immature ways that no one but i will find funny (ie hide their textbooks and notes the night before an exam).
 
ANF1986 said:
The majority of your posts when we discuss other topics are always extremely "liberal" and what I'd classify as a bleeding heart (supporting welfare, universal healthcare, etc). However, when we discuss a topic like this, you suddenly turn super conservative and want to damn the rest of this girls life for cheating. Why? People make mistakes, and they should not have to pay for the rest of their lives for one small error in judgement. The moral superiority that permeates throughout your postings is indicative of someone who has not lived in the real world and has a loose grip on reality. You live in this sheltered little world where you masquerade pretending to be a compassionate liberal, and then your true colors come out on SDN with your snide judgemental remarks towards someone you have never met, and have no basis with which to make a character analysis other then a short posting about one infraction.

People have also tried to make an analogy between cheating when the stakes are only 2 points, and what the person might do when its for something more important. That is ridiculous to try to make the link between the two. There are many instances where people will do something wrong BECAUSE the stakes are relatively low, and then will do the right thing or refrain from an offense BECAUSE the stakes are much higher. In the grand scheme of things, cheating for 2 points is a relatively inconsequential offense, you will not be put in jail for 10 years, you will not be fined $100,000, and you will not have to register in your neighborhood wherever you go under the 18 USC:41-5 "Neurotic Judgemental Premed Act of 2008."

Instead of trying to ostracize these people who make errors in judgement, we ought to try and understand the system that we created which put the pressure on them to err in judgement the way they did. It would work under the same logic we use that allows physicians with substance abuse problems to seek treatment/help from their employers rather than firing them or taking away their license to practice.
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Pre-meds are the only demographic that consistently votes against the death penalty except for cheating in orgo 1, which is punishable by lethal social rejection
 
ANF1986 said:
People make mistakes, and they should not have to pay for the rest of their lives for one small error in judgement. The moral superiority that permeates throughout your postings is indicative of someone who has not lived in the real world and has a loose grip on reality.
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OMG thank you, so well put. That is how I feel about, unfortunately alot of the people who post here. It seems as if they have not actually lived in the real world because they have such little comprehension of how these situations work.
 
cbrons said:
ai

im gunna be the bully in med school and mess with these types of no-nonsense kids in harmless but nonetheless immature ways that no one but i will find funny (ie hide their textbooks and notes the night before an exam).
Click to expand...

Hide someone's textbooks and notes the night before the exam... VERY sadistic.
 
cbrons said:
Pre-meds are the only demographic that consistently votes against the death penalty except for cheating in orgo 1, which is punishable by lethal social rejection
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Now THAT is definitely quoteworthy!

Well done, sir. I applaud you.
 
cbrons said:
ai

like i said, theyre all savages. im gunna have fun with it tho. im gunna be the bully in med school and mess with these types of no-nonsense kids in harmless but nonetheless immature ways that no one but i will find funny (ie hide their textbooks and notes the night before an exam).
Click to expand...

The stance of "moral righteousness" is a never-ending cycle of hate! I mean, now we have the ones taking the righteous stance of standing against the moral righteousness of those condemning the cheaters! Where is the empathy for the angry, bitter posters who work so hard honestly, only to see cheaters taking the easy route?

That previous paragraph is just a whimsical, half-serious rant (which I need to say here since tone is not always effectively communicated through type-talk). My point is, we can accuse each other of anything all we like. This can be stopped simply by giving an answer free of moral judgment. Will the girl in the OP's story have a harder time getting into med school? Yes. Is it impossible? Not necessarily. See? No moral judgments at all! :D
 
Santa333 said:
Hide someone's textbooks and notes the night before the exam... VERY sadistic.
Click to expand...

not when you know theyve spent 3 weeks studying every waking hour outside class and have memorized both the notes and the textbook to the point where they can recite them verbatum... then its just funny to see them squirm and fume and go into a rage over the issue. even funnier when you give it back to them... theyll laugh and itll be a good story to tell when we all go out to the bar after exam week for years to come... "remember that time in med school when you stole my book before the exam?..."

man i hope some of my class mates drink. itll be a long 4 years.... i hope all these stereotypes ive created or reinforced turn out to be falsehood.
 
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