Academic dilemma...possible expulsion from Ivy League school

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She deserved it. QQ
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This is a tough break for her. I really do think she'll have problems getting into ANY medical school if she applies right out of college. This is a pretty big flag, especially if she eventually gets expelled. The best possible outcome, would be for her to take several years off (at least 2 years). I would advise her to go into a different field (or as one of the other posters said, join the peace corp). The reason is because that way she can have some distance so that she can prove she's matured and understood the consequences of her actions. Even then, this is likely to be a pretty big deal.

As for the other point, someone does raise a pretty good point that if she cheated on this, she might have cheated on other exams as well. Remember, the medical school admissions committee are looking for reasons to thin down their applicant pool, as this ranks right up there with having a criminal record. I think it would be the equivalent of costing 10 points on the MCATs or chopping off 0.5 points from her GPA. She'll get in somewhere, but not the ivy leagues or the top 20 medical schools.
 
Twiigg said:
I didn't know people would have the balls to do this! I have never even thought of doing that... I would probably wet myself.
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The honors bio courses at my university does this too, but they tell us about it, and they hand back the photocopy of the test instead of the original. Apparently that was not enough to deter people from cheating, as we were told that in the past students have tried to write on the photocopied version, and then photocopy it again, to fake it as their test, thinking it would pass off and that the TA's would be too lazy to actually compare with the original.
 
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bka6827 said:
Here is a pre-med dilemma for you all.....

One of my ex-classmates has a 3.93 at an Ivy League university. She is a junior and a biology major/pre-med. Two weeks ago, she received a grade of 96 on her chemistry midterm, but she needed a 98 to receive an A+. She decided to cheat and change a two point question to the correct answer when she received the exam back and submit it for a regrade. Unknown to her, the professor had photocopied the original exam and compared her original to the regrade and they were different. She was immediately placed on academic probation and the honor council decided to give her a harsh punishment to set an example for other students who would consider cheating. She will either:
(A) be expelled or
(B) fail her chemistry class, withdraw from all of her classes this semester, and be suspended for two extra semesters (Spring and Fall 2009)

She still expressed hopes of returning to her original college (if she is not expelled). If she is, she will finish up her undergraduate career at another college. She desperately wants to be a physician and is a deeply empathetic person, but with this large stain on her record, is there ANY REMOTE CHANCE she could get into an allopathic medical school or will this essentially prevent her from that?
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Can't imagine what her parents are gonna do now...

:smack: -> :barf:-> +pissed+ -> :diebanana:
 
Wow.....

Not to pick a fight or anything, but some of the responses in this thread are plain blood-thirsty.

Did the person make a very stupid and ridiculous choice? Yes, no doubt about it. Would she take it back if she could? In a heartbeat. Thats what we call a mistake in the real world.

She didn't kill anyone. She didn't put your child's life in danger. She didn't even steal another person's work and try to pass it off as her own.

Naturally, I dont think I would get a long with a person who was so motivated by the A+ to make this kind of decision in real life, which is why I think many of you are enjoying the opportunity to make a funny comment and doom her entire medical career.

The fact of the matter is that a mistake is a mistake...everyone make's them...we all are different people from different backgrounds with different traits that make us more susceptible to making particular kinds of "wrong" decisions. I wish the future compassionate physicians in this thread could empathize a bit more with another human being's plight (however it was caused) than relish in their demise. This person might be getting what she deserves, but its absurd to think she should not be forgiven.
 
I agree with the people who have already encouraged your friend to take time off of school and do something very worthwhile during that time, but for a different reason: she clearly needs to grow up and do some serious self-reflection. She needs to stop thinking about being a physician right now. She crossed a line and she needs to spend time realizing who she is and what her morals are. I'm not entirely unsympathetic- I feel like every premed gets a little caught up in the rat race and have thoughts they wish they didn't (i.e. a desire to cheat, wishing ill on others etc). However, the majority of us don't act on those thoughts! Your friend needs to refocus herself and find her values, because she clearly lost them along the way.

After this period she can decide if she still wants to be a physician (and if she thinks she'll make a good one). I think people can tell if someone's being honest so if she's truly apologetic and has grown a lot (and works her butt off during applications) I think some schools would be happy to accept her. However, people will see right through the "I've grown so much" crap if it's not true, so she needs to make sure it's true!
 
Will serving some penance in the Peace Corps or elsewhere help?

This student will need to answer "yes" to the institutional action (IA) question on the AMCAS application and will need to explain the circumstances. There is no statute of limitations on that question and regardless of what she does after graduation or how long she waits to apply, that question will still be on the application.

Her high gpa will mitigate the damage

The circumstances surrounding the IA will be examined and the committee will forgive and forget or toss the application aside. This may be done without regard to gpa, etc.

This was a mistake that took just a minute, it shouldn't ruit her chances forever, that's too cruel

To those of you who said that this woman made a "mistake", I recommend that you read Forgive and Remember Managing Medical Failure, by Charles L. Bosk, as it describes how surgical attendings deal with "mistakes" made by surgical trainees. What she did might be considered a "normative" error... those that were preventable and inexcusable.

It was a one time thing.

We have no evidence on which to base this statement. We know that it was the only time that she was caught.

I did something bad and I got in.

Many IAs, including bad behavior in the dorms and violations of laws against drinking or pissing in public, won't get your application tossed. Academic DISHONESTY is a different kettle of fish.

It is so harsh to punish her for the rest of her life

Many schools do not want to open their doors to people who have been found guilty of academic dishonesty. Perhaps it is mean to take a hard line but it may also be a case of hanging horse thieves, not soley as punishment but to deter horse thieves.
 
GloryField said:
The honors bio courses at my university does this too, but they tell us about it, and they hand back the photocopy of the test instead of the original. Apparently that was not enough to deter people from cheating, as we were told that in the past students have tried to write on the photocopied version, and then photocopy it again, to fake it as their test, thinking it would pass off and that the TA's would be too lazy to actually compare with the original.
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Dude, that's a lot of effort for a few extra points.

I do know of some students have done the very same thing at the girl in the OP's story. But they didn't have the luxury of being warned ahead of time that the prof would photocopy their exams-the students just assumed he wouldn't do something like that. Thinking you can pull one over a prof is simply a bad idea, especially if the prof has been around for a while.

But really, it was a rather idiotic thing on the case of the girl to do. Looks like her moral compass is off a few degrees. Is it our place to condemn her? No, not really, but I suppose we can call her an idiot if it makes us feel better. But really, the uphill battle she faces regarding 1) getting into med school and 2) living with this mistake are probably enough punishment.

I wouldn't let her in, personally. At least not during her first app round. But I'm not the one making the decisions so what I think doesn't really matter, does it?
 
LizzyM, do you think it makes a difference that the school's punishment was so harsh? (Perhaps it was a justified measure but it was a pretty intense punishment).

In my school, I know that kids who have been caught cheating usually fail the exam that they cheated on. I've never heard of anyone getting expelled for cheating.

Do you think it makes a difference to medical schools that the school chose to take the stance that it did?
 
pianola said:
LizzyM, do you think it makes a difference that the school's punishment was so harsh? (Perhaps it was a justified measure but it was a pretty intense punishment).

In my school, I know that kids who have been caught cheating usually fail the exam that they cheated on. I've never heard of anyone getting expelled for cheating.

Do you think it makes a difference to medical schools that the school chose to take the stance that it did?
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There may be more to the story than the difference between an A and an A+. There may be published rules (look in the school handbook) and, if you will, "sentencing guidelines" that the Dean takes into consideration when handing down a decision. I think that the harsh punishment indicates that in academic circles this was a very, very serious offense. I think that the severity of the punishment will be taken into consideration by the med schools and interpreted to be a very serious situation. This might be compared to getting a year in jail for breaking the law compared with getting a $100 fine.
 
I would have to say that this doesn't bode well for Ima.

Aside from all the reasons that Lizzy pointed out, this just demonstrates that she makes poor decisions. That was a very high risk to low reward action she took and now she's going to get burned on it.

I'd be worried about putting someone with that mentality in charge of the care of others.
 
bka6827 said:
Here is a pre-med dilemma for you all.....

One of my ex-classmates has a 3.93 at an Ivy League university. She is a junior and a biology major/pre-med. Two weeks ago, she received a grade of 96 on her chemistry midterm, but she needed a 98 to receive an A+. She decided to cheat and change a two point question to the correct answer when she received the exam back and submit it for a regrade. Unknown to her, the professor had photocopied the original exam and compared her original to the regrade and they were different. She was immediately placed on academic probation and the honor council decided to give her a harsh punishment to set an example for other students who would consider cheating. She will either:
(A) be expelled or
(B) fail her chemistry class, withdraw from all of her classes this semester, and be suspended for two extra semesters (Spring and Fall 2009)

She still expressed hopes of returning to her original college (if she is not expelled). If she is, she will finish up her undergraduate career at another college. She desperately wants to be a physician and is a deeply empathetic person, but with this large stain on her record, is there ANY REMOTE CHANCE she could get into an allopathic medical school or will this essentially prevent her from that?
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WOW! At UVA she would be OUT...no questions asked...no returning...Thomas Jefferson's Honor Code...Her school is being very "Ivy" by allowing her to return after a year! Makes you wonder how many times she cheated and got away with it! Is that 3.93 honest.
 
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girlygirl87 said:
WOW! At UVA she would be OUT...no questions asked...no returning...Thomas Jefferson's Honor Code...Her school is being very "Ivy" by allowing her to return after a year! Makes you wonder how many times she cheated and got away with it! Is that 3.93 honest.
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very true that at UVA she would be thrown out, single sanction and all that, but jefferson didn't create the honor code, just clearing up a common misconception
 
Talk about a bad decision!! I can't imagine her getting into med school now, not that I'm an expert on the matter... Why are pre meds so nuts!?
 
Kateonwheels said:
I think I know exactly who you are talking about. I go to that same institution and there is a little more to the story than you tell. The issue of cheating was first discussed in by the orgo lab TAs because people had been buying pure product offline and replacing their "synthesized" prodcut with this authentic product. After that was discovered, the whole chemistry department cracked down on all types of cheating.
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What the hell goes on at this school? :thumbdown:
 
ANF1986 said:
The majority of your posts when we discuss other topics are always extremely "liberal" and what I'd classify as a bleeding heart (supporting welfare, universal healthcare, etc). However, when we discuss a topic like this, you suddenly turn super conservative and want to damn the rest of this girls life for cheating. Why? People make mistakes, and they should not have to pay for the rest of their lives for one small error in judgement. The moral superiority that permeates throughout your postings is indicative of someone who has not lived in the real world and has a loose grip on reality. You live in this sheltered little world where you masquerade pretending to be a compassionate liberal, and then your true colors come out on SDN with your snide judgemental remarks towards someone you have never met, and have no basis with which to make a character analysis other then a short posting about one infraction.

People have also tried to make an analogy between cheating when the stakes are only 2 points, and what the person might do when its for something more important. That is ridiculous to try to make the link between the two. There are many instances where people will do something wrong BECAUSE the stakes are relatively low, and then will do the right thing or refrain from an offense BECAUSE the stakes are much higher. In the grand scheme of things, cheating for 2 points is a relatively inconsequential offense, you will not be put in jail for 10 years, you will not be fined $100,000, and you will not have to register in your neighborhood wherever you go under the 18 USC:41-5 "Neurotic Judgemental Premed Act of 2008."

Instead of trying to ostracize these people who make errors in judgement, we ought to try and understand the system that we created which put the pressure on them to err in judgement the way they did. It would work under the same logic we use that allows physicians with substance abuse problems to seek treatment/help from their employers rather than firing them or taking away their license to practice.
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I agree. A lot of people here would make GREAT prosecuting attorneys, though!
 
:bang: :diebanana: :bang: :diebanana: :bang: :diebanana: :bang: :diebanana: :bang: :diebanana:

Wow everyone here is READY to KILL her like no one makes mistakes.
Sure sure she is screwed, but it is not reversible. She needs to find an means of showing the adcom that she is a changed person, and I dont think coming right out of college wld do the trick.

This should be a lesson for ALL gunners....
 
madness, this is madness!

noooooo this is a 96!!!!! *KICK*
 
Santa333 said:
For those of you who posted here condeming the OP's friend to hell (ie. the NA NA NA child), you obviously lack an innate empathitic emotion, and will thus probably not make all that great of a doctor.
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You just made a GIGANTIC leap here!!! First, you're using the wrong word. Empathy means that you can relate to the situation. If you can, then it explains why you're defending her. I, however, can't because I have never cheated. So what I would have is sympathy, not empathy. Second, I have all the sympathy in the world for a person who is sick or gets into a bad situation. But this is borderline insane. Two measly points? You're going to risk everything for two measly points when it doesn't even matter since a 4.0 is a 4.0 on AMCAS?

But there's another issue here. This girl wanted an advantage against the rest of us -- ALL of us pre-meds who bust our asses to earn our A's and our A+'s with hard work instead of cheating. We all end up in that same applicant pool. So how do we know her A was even deserved? Perhaps her true grade would have been a B, but she had equations written on her palm or her shoe or whatever. Why should I be giving her my sympathy when she tried to one-up me by cheating when I study very, very hard for my grades, be it a B, a B+, an A, or an A+? Screw that! If she's willing to cheat to get a bump from an A to an A+, it proves that she's more than a perfectionist. She's obsessed -- to the point of being reckless -- with perfection and sorry, but I don't think that's a good quality for a physician.
 
MedStudentWanna said:
You just made a GIGANTIC leap here!!! First, you're using the wrong word. Empathy means that you can relate to the situation. If you can, then it explains why you're defending her. I, however, can't because I have never cheated. So what I would have is sympathy, not empathy. Second, I have all the sympathy in the world for a person who is sick or gets into a bad situation. But this is borderline insane. Two measly points? You're going to risk everything for two measly points when it doesn't even matter since a 4.0 is a 4.0 on AMCAS?

But there's another issue here. This girl wanted an advantage against the rest of us -- ALL of us pre-meds who bust our asses to earn our A's and our A+'s with hard work instead of cheating. We all end up in that same applicant pool. So how do we know her A was even deserved? Perhaps her true grade would have been a B, but she had equations written on her palm or her shoe or whatever. Why should I be giving her my sympathy when she tried to one-up me by cheating when I study very, very hard for my grades, be it a B, a B+, an A, or an A+? Screw that! If she's willing to cheat to get a bump from an A to an A+, it proves that she's more than a perfectionist. She's obsessed -- to the point of being reckless -- with perfection and sorry, but I don't think that's a good quality for a physician.
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really? Do you mean perfection is not a good quality? or being reckless?
 
Santa333 said:
For those of you who posted here condeming the OP's friend to hell (ie. the NA NA NA child), you obviously lack an innate empathitic emotion, and will thus probably not make all that great of a doctor.
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Oh now you've gone and done it. You've pulled the "you're not going to be a good doctor" card. This thread is officially over.
 
chiz2kul said:
really? Do you mean perfection is not a good quality? or being reckless?
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Being reckless, of course. If perfection is that important to you that you'd be reckless, it's a dangerous quality to have when you have patients in your care. No patient wants a reckless doctor.
 
At my school profs explicitly tell you that they will be photocopying the exams before turning them in. Although expulsion might be a little harsh, I have no sympathy for her. To do all that for an extra 2%, how can we not help but say that this person wasn't in her right mind. She should say she was on meds or something.
 
It's been said many times already, but, WOW!

I don't have sympathy for cheaters, and don't condone the girl's actions, but I feel incredibly sad for her (and for all us pre-meds, really). If the only way to feel secure in your bid for med school is to cheat, no matter what the grade, well, yikes. :( Is it really worth it??
 
maybe I am just a cynic but I belive most people would cheat if they could get away with it. To brand this girl as a complete moral degenerate seems harsh and ignorant. Only difference between her and every other applicants is that she got caught. Cmon people how many of us may have "exagerrated" our ec's. That's not exactly honest either
 
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I feel bad for her too but not that much. If this had just "happened" to her, it'd be one thing, but she made that really really stupid choice. Initially, I thought that she should just be thrown out the door for cheating. BUT, now I'd probably just have her fail the course and have to make it up later. If she did it again, well, she just better not.
 
Depakote said:
I would have to say that this doesn't bode well for Ima.

Aside from all the reasons that Lizzy pointed out, this just demonstrates that she makes poor decisions. That was a very high risk to low reward action she took and now she's going to get burned on it.

I'd be worried about putting someone with that mentality in charge of the care of others.
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This is exactly the point I was trying to make earlier. I don't really care that she cheated on the test. It was more the circumstances of why she did it. Could it have been a one time "mistake"? Sure, but an equal argument could be made that this is indicative of a greater character flaw. If she cheated for 2 points, what happens if she made an error treating a patient? She might falsify a chart or worse. Allowing adcoms to call your character into question like this doesn't really bode well for your application.
 
chiz2kul said:
really? Do you mean perfection is not a good quality? or being reckless?
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Both. Doctors are not going to be perfect. In fact, a major thing is accepting the fact that you will make errors at some point. And I think being reckless speaks for itself.
 
jdandturk said:
maybe I am just a cynic but I belive most people would cheat if they could get away with it. To brand this girl as a complete moral degenerate seems harsh and ignorant. Only difference between her and every other applicants is that she got caught. Cmon people how many of us may have "exagerrated" our ec's. That's not exactly honest either
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Depends on how much you exaggerate. If you did 20 hours of volunteer work and you say you did 200, you're probably not getting into that school either. And no one is saying she is a moral degenerate, just that she's foolish and reckless.
 
she deserved this, at the very least. No sympathies for a criminal who, in the best state of her mind, decides to commit a crime. If she had stolen a bank, I would not have given a damn about that crime. But she tried to steal my, or your or someone else's spot in med school and she deserves an even harsher punishment. A mean cold numb reality of this drama which we call life.
 
I am not sure if someone mentioned this yet as there is a wide range of responses given and I havent had the opportunity to get thru them all.

I say your frind needs therapy before anything. She obviously has emotional problems and needs to reflect on her self and action. If I was an on an ADCOM committee I would deny her because she seems like one of those people that would make a horrible doctor and carry this attitude at doing anything to just be on the top without regard to anyone or anything. Grades alone dont make a great doctor, I doubt you can be empathetic as you say and so moral with such behavior. My conclusion:

She needs therapy immediately, girl gots problems, take it from someone who been thru the whole pyschiatry system.

She can get into a med school easily, probably not one she could of got into, but she seems to have the gunner attitude to make it somewhere, even if she went to the carib. She can also try to challenge the decision and hire and lawyer and do all that crap. One person at the dental school at my undergrad got expelled for some reason, challenged it and got reinstated, it was a long process, but worth not losing your career over. Yet I got to mention his mistake was no where close to what your friend did.

I am sure if your friend voluntarily elected to get counseling, take a semester off, do some type of community service/ awareness about dishonesty or campus awareness about the consequences of such actions, and if she just showed sincerity in her effort to correct this mistake she will be looked at more favoribly.
 
bipolardoc said:
I am not sure if someone mentioned this yet as there is a wide range of responses given and I havent had the opportunity to get thru them all.

I say your frind needs therapy before anything. She obviously has emotional problems and needs to reflect on her self and action. If I was an on an ADCOM committee I would deny her because she seems like one of those people that would make a horrible doctor and carry this attitude at doing anything to just be on the top without regard to anyone or anything. Grades alone dont make a great doctor, I doubt you can be empathetic as you say and so moral with such behavior. My conclusion:

She needs therapy immediately, girl gots problems, take it from someone who been thru the whole pyschiatry system.

She can get into a med school easily, probably not one she could of got into, but she seems to have the gunner attitude to make it somewhere, even if she went to the carib. She can also try to challenge the decision and hire and lawyer and do all that crap. One person at the dental school at my undergrad got expelled for some reason, challenged it and got reinstated, it was a long process, but worth not losing your career over. Yet I got to mention his mistake was no where close to what your friend did.

I am sure if your friend voluntarily elected to get counseling, take a semester off, do some type of community service/ awareness about dishonesty or campus awareness about the consequences of such actions, and if she just showed sincerity in her effort to correct this mistake she will be looked at more favoribly.
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There is a difference in a mistake and a crime. Mistake is unintentional outcome of an action in which a person is intrinsically sincere. Crime is done knowingly and intentionally while breaking the law.
 
viscous said:
she deserved this, at the very least. No sympathies for a criminal who, in the best state of her mind, decides to commit a crime. If she had stolen a bank, I would not have given a damn about that crime. But she tried to steal my, or your or someone else's spot in med school and she deserves an even harsher punishment. A mean cold numb reality of this drama which we call life.
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by this reasoning we should knock off all the URM who take your spot with lower numbers
 
jdandturk said:
by this reasoning we should knock off all the URM who take your spot with lower numbers
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That's not the same thing. By writing that and relating it to viscous's post, you're calling all URM criminals. They'll just using the system in place; they're not breaking the rules to step on the rest of us.
 
jdandturk said:
by this reasoning we should knock off all the URM who take your spot with lower numbers
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just shows your immaturity and your unpreparedness to dispense healthcare to the public. I did not cheat, she cheated and yet you want me to be "knocked off" for holding a certain point of view? No one wants a "dictator" doctor like that.
 
To those who are whining about premeds being held to higher ethical standards, this is a fact throughout the medical profession. In California, I've seen medical licenses REVOKED for drunk driving, domestic violence, recreational drug use, and other offenses that would not affect someone's job status in other lines of work. These offenses did not occur in the workplace and had no reported effect on their job as a physician, but doctors are being held to higher standards in order to practice medicine.
I have no sympathy for whiners regarding expectations regarding ethics and morals. If you can't hold yourself to a high ethical and moral standard, maybe you should consider other careers.
 
The OP is going to have some very upset heliocopter parents when they find out their little darling's fanny has been kicked out of that Ivy League School!

It makes me proud of the Ivy League.
 
It would be so sweet if in one of her letters of recommendation it said "this student has shown that she will do whatever it takes to reach her goals."
 
michigo said:
It would be so sweet if in one of her letters of recommendation it said "this student has shown that she will do whatever it takes to reach her goals."
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:laugh:
 
Post #68 makes me think that OP just may be a legitimate "friend" of this cheating ivy league-ette.
 
The reason why people are so up in arms here is that pre medical classes are incredibly competitive and when someone cheats it hurts others. Medical schools' focus on GPA has made people insane! I did a post bacc at an Ivy and the undergrads were absolutely nutty, they would actually give bad information to other students for fear that they would get a higher grade than he/she. The medical school application process makes too many short-cited, neurotic future doctors!
 
Everyone, let's look past the fact that she cheated. Cheating is bad, but come on, there's better ways to do it than to just re-write your answer and turn it in for a regrade. She must've taken the professor for a fool or something. The way she cheated was just plain stupid. :thumbdown:thumbdown for not being creative.
 
academic dishonesty in university circles is similar to communist affiliation in the mccarthy household.

im not as much worried about her cheating as i am about her having some underlying psychopathology
 
Tired said:
Once again someone confuses "medical problems" with "character problems".

Just because you're an idiot, it doesn't mean you need therapy.

Unless by "therapy" you mean "a swift kick in the ass".
Click to expand...

While the cheating may have been the result of a character flaw (i.e. disregard for ethical considerations, arrogance, etc.), from it sounds like it could also be (and is possibly more likely to be) the result of severe insecurity and perfectionism. These are issues that a therapist may be able to treat, and it seems perfectly reasonable for her to seek out therapy if that's the case.
 
This is like pulling of an amazing bank robbery then going back into the vault for 20 more bucks and getting arrested. I doubt it diminishes her chance of being an MD to 0, but she's going to have to demonstrate some pretty altruistic reasons why she now wants to be an MD. Probably need to go the non-trad route.
 
nogolfinsnow said:
This is like pulling of an amazing bank robbery then going back into the vault for 20 more bucks and getting arrested. I doubt it diminishes her chance of being an MD to 0, but she's going to have to demonstrate some pretty altruistic reasons why she now wants to be an MD. Probably need to go the non-trad route.
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You have the authority to hire new bank tellers. There are 20 applications for 1 opening. One of the applicants is the person arrested 5 years ago for robbing a bank, convicted and sentenced to a year in prison. Will you hire this applicant if she demonstrates excellent motivation for wanting to work in banking?
 
LOL @ "YOUR FRIEND"
Why don't people just admit that it's happening to them?

Everyone does cheat and if you get caught, tough luck.
 
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