I work at a large university medical center. They are offering the new recruits fresh-out-of-residency (who obviously are not board-certified) more money than I make. I've been here almost four years and am board-certified. What a load of crap. Is this common in the academic world? I am actively seeking a new job due to this nonsense.
Academic Psychiatry Salary
- Thread starter Chianti
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This is common at the VA though I believe theyve revised this sime places as a result of the anger it generates. Your beat bet is for you and your colleagues to threaten to resign en masse if this is not rectified.
But yes this kind of nonsense is characteristic of the incompetence that seems to flourish in academic settings
But yes this kind of nonsense is characteristic of the incompetence that seems to flourish in academic settings
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Happens everywhere. Not a good feeling.
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Why not just ask for a raise to $NewHireSalary$ * 1.05^$NYearsExperience$?
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Why is this even a thing? I really don't get what the logic behind paying fresh physicians more than a more experienced board certified physician. Is there an actual reason behind this or is it really just incompetency?
Market forces changed after hiring the currently employed psychiatrists. Now to attract new psychiatrists they need to pay more. The currently employed psychiatrists should negotiate or leave...
H
HarryMTieboutMD
This makes no sense. In our department salary only increases with advancement in rank. They must be making them work nonstop (guessing it's for purely clinical positions) with lots of ECT and TMS to cover this "alluring" salary
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Employers capitalize on the fact that most employees settle in and want to avoid change as much as possible. It's quite disruptive to leave a position when you are committed to your patients and your team. Cheap and insulting move-- not a good long term strategy for the organization.
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I get market forces, but did they really change that much in 4 years? (OP said he's been at his current job 4 years)
VA salaries are up to attract more psychiatrists, I think due to fallout from vets on "waiting lists" committing suicide. I think VA is up to 240k/year now. Kaiser is paying a lot with big time loan repayment perks too. These are two big employers. So I think salaries have increased in general the last 3-4 years. Private practice docs have seen the addition of psychotherapy cpt codes which has increased their income as well.
The non profit hospital may not be able to simply increase a doctor's salary. There are some strange employment laws related to physician pay restricting how hospitals can compensate doctors. The doctor may have to threaten to leave or produce an outside job offer before the hospital can legally increase the salary.
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VA 240k? Wow. It's time to leave private practice.
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Not all pay this. Hospital dependent.
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This is the third time in 30 years university jobs start higher than recent new faculty. It is just a reality of the market. Some new faculty are threatening to quit and reapply, but they are just angry. Most of my graduates out earn us and that has been true for a long time. I still don't want their jobs compared to mine.
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The unfortunate truth also has new grads with much, much higher debts that the days of yesteryear.
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A doc I know said they were offered $300,000 at Martinsburg.
I personally don't get the allure of academia because money definitely isn't one of the attractions. This isn't an uncommon but definitely a rotten move which I'd be certain has some level of success for the above reasons.
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That must have been a leadership/chief position, the VA is not paying 300k for a regular psychiatrist positions. a quick search reveals the salary there is 264k which is consistent with the highest VA salaries i've seen floated around for clinical positions in places where no one would want to live. VA salaries vary widely between hospitals. the local VA here pays a lot less than the VA 30 miles away. CBOCs tend to pay higher than the hospitals do etc. VA salaries have definitely been trending upwards but still vary from low 200s to 265 depending on location.
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Just think about the supply demand side. They were able to get you for price $x. They were not able to get these new folks for $x so they needed to up it to $y. They recognize their is a risk you ask for money and they likely pony it up but if they simply couldn't fill the position leaving it empty is costing them far more than the increase in physician salaries.
For context, salaries at one of the academic hospitals near me increased nearly 20% in the past 3 years because the pay was ridiculously low and they could not retain or get new faculty. If you hit a bubble like this it could make sense of your situation.
For context, salaries at one of the academic hospitals near me increased nearly 20% in the past 3 years because the pay was ridiculously low and they could not retain or get new faculty. If you hit a bubble like this it could make sense of your situation.
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The VA I'm most familiar with in my old state pays new psychiatrist about 220k to start, 230k once board certified. At the time I was there, just before leaving, the attendings were grumbling that the new grads got paid more than them, as they were only getting about 200k.
One thing I always wondered is when something like this happens that affects multiple different people the same way, why don't people organize together and approach the admin together all at once? I understand people are scared of individually putting a target on your back. But wouldn't Group Think psychology make it less risky to be brave by going together as a group to ask for a collective raise for everyone?
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Doctors are trained to be submissive.
Where do you search for VA hospital salaries?
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usajobs.gov
Awesome, thanks. I did a quick psychiatry search and the it shows salaries ranging from 100k to 292k...do I assume they will pay the highest quote..?
I just interviewed with the local VA for an outpatient gig. 215,000 for a cush outpatient job which will likely be increased to 225 or 230k this month. The VA has become very proactive in recruiting Psychiatrists so every year they assess local Psychiatry salaries and adjust what they are paying to stay competitive. On top of that, they offer a yearly bonus (most people get 10k) and have the student loan repayment (120k over five years). It blows my current situation out of the water.
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no it depends on seniority. but don't worry no full time psychiatry position is 100k!
Sounds good. What part of country is this and how big of city?
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Midwestern city. Metro area of about 2 million.
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Did you ask for a raise? They will probably give it to you.
Market forces as above. It's the opposite of incompetence actually: the finance department is trying to get the most value for the least money. If you haven't asked for more there is no motivation for them to give you an impromptu tap on the shoulder and hand you an extra wad of cash. But if you make your displeasure known and you are reasonably good at your job they will probably be quite willing to increase your salary.
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Assume they will pay the lowest possible. Like asking for the lowest bidder on gov't contracts.
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With the student loan repayment benefit ($24K per year over 5 years) is that paid as ordinary income? Like, could a person spend that on a down payment for a house instead? Would the money show up all 5 years even if you had only $80,000 of student loans?
My understanding is that you pay $2,000/month during your first year of employment, then show proof of payment at the end of the year and they reimburse you with tax-free money in a lump sump. Repeat four times over the next four years.
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Much like anything else, your individual department leadership matters in the VA. Mine has been sure to make sure to negotiate raises for the entire department from the feds.
Though I've learned that it appears to be a different process to raise salaries for new hires than for established employees. When I started out, I was making 20k more than people who arrived the year before me until they were able to get the paperwork for everyone else's raise approved and processed. It took a couple months and I think everyone else got a retroactive payment for those two months too.
If your VA department leadership doesn't know what they're doing, I could see how situations upthread could develop.
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If you have a non-compete for your area, the department may figure that you need them more than they need you.
Just look at the recent news stories about female attendings being systematically underpaid and you will see that there is nothing forcing departments to pay you what everyone else gets or what you're worth.
Just look at the recent news stories about female attendings being systematically underpaid and you will see that there is nothing forcing departments to pay you what everyone else gets or what you're worth.
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I sure hope a benefit like that is negotiable.
It is absurd that two non-trads could sell their houses and move for medical school, one keeps the cash and takes a student loan, the other spends the cash on school, and the second person gets paid $120k less while performing the same job as the first person.
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I suspect it's a function of the taxation (or lack thereof) of the benefit.
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That's 120k over 5 years, which isn't that much more than what you'll pay in interest on your $300k loan over that time. You are still much better off not taking the loan at all if you can help it.
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Yeah employers are not in the business of being fair or paying more than an employee requires. It is unfortunate for the uninformed or those without the drive to negotiate but as they say "ask not and receive not".
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I already want to go to VA eventually when I am done. Hope things stay the same for about the next 5 yrs or so.
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long ways off. It's been a good last half decade or so out here, but things can change. The Pete Hegseths of the world could get actual influence, but for now VA mental health $$$ seems to have bipartisan support.
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Employees Who Stay In Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less
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All the more reason to refuse to sign a non-compete clause.
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@Chianti This really is unacceptable and we continue to see this time and time again not only an academic health centers but also nonprofit health system (recently someone who had this with new hires and it was a $50,000) Rarely would this ever happen in any of the private practices I have worked with. The biggest problem is that organizations don't enter into arrangements with physicians thinking about 2, 5, or 10 years down the road. This ultimately puts the physician in a bad position because the employer is not actually protecting the physician. Ultimately, you need to renegotiate and you need to come to them with an outlined plan of the issues, concerns, and solutions. It can be a delicate topic but by allowing organizations to do this physicians are the ones that are getting penalized.
Here's the punch line to my original post: I work in the ER and see the Psych patients. My hours are 8-5. I was recently informed that we were going to a "shift-based" schedule and that I would be working weekends and evenings soon. Of course there would be no commensurate pay increase due to being asked to work a crappy schedule (increase my salary by 40-50% to work a crappy schedule and I may consider it). AND I would lose the perk of weekend call (which we are paid extra for). Only in the bizarre world of academia do administrators lack this much common sense. The degree of naivety among the administrators is truly amazing.
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Did you say that you quit? Gotta vote with your feet.
I'm out. At my new job I will have a 48% pay increase with a 98% reduction in daily stress.
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Congrats!!!
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Perspective from baby (PGY-1). Treat any conclusions with a tremendous degree of skepticism:
At the VA where I rotate, the new psychiatrists do TONS more clinical work than the established psychiatrists who have been here for a decade. For instance, on the inpatient unit, the newbie will typically see 12 patients a day, the more established one 6-8, and the one who was just promoted and has tons of admin stuff will maybe see 2-4. I also see (though it is subtle and I could be mistaken) that some of the more headache-inducing patients go to the newbie.
N = 1 and all that, but are these new jobs really equivalent to the established jobs? I can see the allure of doing half the work and being paid 10% less for it.
Edit: A cursory review of their salaries shows the established psychiatrist getting paid about $10-$15k more than the newbie.
At the VA where I rotate, the new psychiatrists do TONS more clinical work than the established psychiatrists who have been here for a decade. For instance, on the inpatient unit, the newbie will typically see 12 patients a day, the more established one 6-8, and the one who was just promoted and has tons of admin stuff will maybe see 2-4. I also see (though it is subtle and I could be mistaken) that some of the more headache-inducing patients go to the newbie.
N = 1 and all that, but are these new jobs really equivalent to the established jobs? I can see the allure of doing half the work and being paid 10% less for it.
Edit: A cursory review of their salaries shows the established psychiatrist getting paid about $10-$15k more than the newbie.
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There are other reasons. Speaking from someone who's going through a departmental restructuring, often what you call "lacking common sense" is deliberate and not exactly what you think. They want to get rid of people like you, and if you don't stay, it means the job is not meant for someone like you. For example, they might want to reserve space for their researchers to take a certain %FTE, or outsource their non-profitable ER work to PTers for cheap. Point being, unless you are a revenue center rather than cost center, there's no incentive for the institution to keep you, and instead of firing you outright (and having to deal with ramifications of that), they can create bizarre arrangements as you described and basically force you to leave. You could negotiate, but it's not a guaranteed win, since in general until at very senior levels, what you can provide is hardly unique.
Institutions that employ you, especially in America, are never on your side. At best, there are interests that are incidentally aligned. At worst, your relationships are entirely instrumental. Your position would change if you OWN a part of the institution rather than being an employee (e.g. equity partner at a practice, or tenured professor at a university, or hold an endowed chair position, etc).
