Accurate Physician Salaries

[hotwasabi]

Hi,

I am currently looking at different medical specialties to help me decide when it comes times to apply for residencies. I am having trouble finding accurate salary information for median and means for physician salaries in 3 different practice settings: (academic, specialty group, and individual private practice).

Does anyone know which are the well-respected figures and reports for such physician salaries? I feel like alot of the surveys online are not accurate. Also, if anyone knows of salaries for physician specialty versus time (e.g. mean and median for specialty for each year between 1990 and 2015, that would be really great info).

Thanks!

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[Lysinee]

Why is an INCOMING med student already worried about physician salaries? You haven't even set foot into a med school and you are already dreaming about the salaries.

In another 2015 thread you said "I will be an MS1 in Medical School this Fall."

 

[Psai]

you're not going to be a future top doctor if your motivation is money
you don't even understand that you won't be paid well when you're receiving a salary
a salary is what you get when someone manages to get their hands on your money and takes some of it before leaving you with the scraps

 

[hotwasabi]

haha... I thought I was gonna get some reaction like this. so I guess you are all saying I should let my $300,000 undergrad loan and possibly $400,000 medical school loan pay for itself? I guess nothing feels as good as being owned by Uncle Sam and the student loan bubble?

@Lysinee. Yes I will be an MS1 this fall. Not that hard to check my content. I have nothing to hide.

@SouthernSurgeron. Thanks for the thread. when I search on studentdoc I didn't find that one. I will scroll through it

@Psai. so I guess you are all about that private practice, cush lifestyle?

 

[username456789]

my $300,000 undergrad loan

How did this even happen?

 

[Psai]

no one forced you to get a 300,000 undergrad loan
no one is forcing you to get a 400,000 medical school loan

 

[Apoplexy__]

Why is an INCOMING med student already worried about physician salaries? You haven't even set foot into a med school and you are already dreaming about the salaries.

I don't see anything wrong with this. As an MS1, it was kind of annoying that it was so difficult to find accurate information, particularly when planning my finances and budgeting.

no one forced you to get a 300,000 undergrad loan
no one is forcing you to get a 400,000 medical school loan

"Nobody is forcing you to take out debt, therefore, you don't need to know about physician salary info." What? We're members of SDN, not the freaking AMCAS. Why are we perpetuating this weird stigma against interest in physician finances?

OP, the thread that SouthernSurgeon posted has some really good content. I think it'll have everything you need to know.

 

[Lysinee]

I don't see anything wrong with this. As an MS1, it was kind of annoying that it was so difficult to find accurate information, particularly when planning my finances and budgeting.

OP, the thread that SouthernSurgeon posted has some really good content. I think it'll have everything you need to know.

It will be a minimum of 7 years before a M1 will be paid physician salary, so current salary trends and averages might not be applicable when your time comes.

 

[joker2400]

haha... I thought I was gonna get some reaction like this. so I guess you are all saying I should let my $300,000 undergrad loan and possibly $400,000 medical school loan pay for itself? I guess nothing feels as good as being owned by Uncle Sam and the student loan bubble?

@Lysinee. Yes I will be an MS1 this fall. Not that hard to check my content. I have nothing to hide.

@SouthernSurgeron. Thanks for the thread. when I search on studentdoc I didn't find that one. I will scroll through it

@Psai. so I guess you are all about that private practice, cush lifestyle?

 

[Psai]

I don't see anything wrong with this. As an MS1, it was kind of annoying that it was so difficult to find accurate information, particularly when planning my finances and budgeting.



"Nobody is forcing you to take out debt, therefore, you don't need to know about physician salary info." What? We're members of SDN, not the freaking AMCAS. Why are we perpetuating this weird stigma against interest in physician finances?

OP, the thread that SouthernSurgeon posted has some really good content. I think it'll have everything you need to know.

that's not even close to what was said but okay

the information being requested is useless in every single way. the amount of money that physicians will be earning by the time he graduates will probably be very different. the field that is chosen will make a difference. the region will make a difference. the setting of the practice will make a difference. the amount of financial burden due to government regulations will make a difference. the options were academic, specialty group, and individual private practice. how do you even answer that?

 

[hotwasabi]

okay... well I checked out some of the thread for physician salaries as SouthernSurgeon suggested. Pretty good read.... although it seemed to center more around debates rather than actual cold hard facts and statistics from reputable sources...

I am guessing finding this kind of information is not easy... or at the very least accurate info will have to be bought online through reputable physician sites or obtained by inside knowledge by close physician friends and relatives.

I will keep looking online and asking references in the future.

Although if anyone knows any links/reports that are respectable I would appreciate your posts.

 

[NickNaylor]

okay... well I checked out some of the thread for physician salaries as SouthernSurgeon suggested. Pretty good read.... although it seemed to center more around debates rather than actual cold hard facts and statistics from reputable sources...

I am guessing finding this kind of information is not easy... or at the very least accurate info will have to be bought online through reputable physician sites or obtained by inside knowledge by close physician friends and relatives.

I will keep looking online and asking references in the future.

Although if anyone knows any links/reports that are respectable I would appreciate your posts.

This data simply isn't available. Probably the "best" source you're going to find is the MGMA salary survey, which is generated from surveys of practicing physicians and includes fairly specific specialty data as well as data by region. A summary of the 2010 survey was posted here several years ago (which you can probably still find) but that data is now outdated and access to the new data costs hundreds of dollars. If you're willing to pay for data, that's probably the best you can do. Otherwise, any other sources that you might have access to (i.e., are free) are worth what they cost.

 

[famoussquamous]

Short answer: You're not going to find a report/survey that is 100% accurate as to what physicians make. Most of those surveys only include base salaries and don't have things like incentives and signing bonuses included. People aren't going to tell you how much they make because they get tired of answering the same questions about money over and over.

 

[famoussquamous]

The bottom line from what I've been told by physicians is that you'll make enough to pay off your loans no matter what field you go into (granted you manage your money wisely) so figuring out the exact amount you'll make is a moot point, since you won't know that until you sign your first contract.

 

[Follow the Cairns]

Salary survey data for any industry is a bit of a moving target. As previously mentioned, the MGMA salary survey is probably used most often for physician salary data. Large recruiting firms like Merritt Hawkins usually track this data as well for the candidates they place.

However, as previously mentioned, it's hard to get your hands on. Surveys cost many hundreds, if not thousands of dollars, and are often available for purchase only to those institutions that participate in the surveys themselves (that's the carrot they use to encourage as many participants as possible). If you want to review one, you might be able to find a copy from the HR Department and/or practice plan from your institution, but generally, they don't let people come and peruse these things.

In my previous life, I was an HR Director responsible for compensation in large health care organizations. Spent a good portion of my working life participating in, and utilizing, compensation salary surveys and data contained therein.

 

[Slack3r]

The bottom line from what I've been told by physicians is that you'll make enough to pay off your loans no matter what field you go into (granted you manage your money wisely) so figuring out the exact amount you'll make is a moot point, since you won't know that until you sign your first contract.

I think physicians that went to school when they paid $10k/year for tuition at 3% interest have NO IDEA what our current generation is facing with $50k tuition at 7.9% interest and the looming death of fee for service. So I'd take this advice with a big grain of salt.

 

[famoussquamous]

I think physicians that went to school when they paid $10k/year for tuition at 3% interest have NO IDEA what our current generation is facing with $50k tuition at 7.9% interest and the looming death of fee for service. So I'd take this advice with a big grain of salt.

No, they know about our 6 figure debt, and these were "younger" attendings i.e. they had lots of debt as well. They still say it's no problem to pay back your loans. If you're that worried about your loans, then just work in the non-profit sector while for a while and get loan forgiveness.

 

[Rocher]

No, they know about our 6 figure debt, and these were "younger" attendings i.e. they had lots of debt as well. They still say it's no problem to pay back your loans. If you're that worried about your loans, then just work in the non-profit sector while for a while and get loan forgiveness.

I don't see that public service loan forgiveness program being around much longer, I myself am definitely not counting on it paying off any of my debt.

 

[Dave89]

haha... I thought I was gonna get some reaction like this. so I guess you are all saying I should let my $300,000 undergrad loan and possibly $400,000 medical school loan pay for itself?

Don't go to medical school if you have $300,000 of debt from undergrad and looking at getting another $300,000-400,000 in debt. Unless you're doing MD/PhD or getting a free ride.

 

[PhillyMed777]

when you matriculate to med school you'll be given access autoatically to aamc careers in medicine. you can search by field and find the 25th, mean, and 75 perecentile for both clinical and academic. They use MGMA.

 

[AlmostAnMD]

having $300,000 of undergraduate debt is probably just one of many, many bad decisions TC has made/will continue to make

Also, just my 2 cents, entering with that much debt and getting another $400,000 base would result in you paying that off forever. Since the 10 year forgiveness thing is likely gonna be scrapped you'll end up on the hook for that.

Even as a neurosurgeon working crazy hours and taking call, I ballpark about $5,000 to $6,0000 of interest PER MONTH upon graduation, and that's not counting residency time since you'll accumulate a lot of debt in interest then. You just never pay it off, or you will sometime around retirement.

It's just financially such an awful idea.

 

[Mad Jack]

okay... well I checked out some of the thread for physician salaries as SouthernSurgeon suggested. Pretty good read.... although it seemed to center more around debates rather than actual cold hard facts and statistics from reputable sources...

I am guessing finding this kind of information is not easy... or at the very least accurate info will have to be bought online through reputable physician sites or obtained by inside knowledge by close physician friends and relatives.

I will keep looking online and asking references in the future.

Although if anyone knows any links/reports that are respectable I would appreciate your posts.

MGMA provides the most accurate reports of total compensation (salary+cash value of benefits) while Medscape provides the best estimates of salary without benefits.

 

[jeffk805dent]

I'm curious to know where you got $300k in undergrad loans? even a ridiculously expensive private school like NYU or USC will run up to 240k at most and thats with a daily supply of chipotle burritos.

 

[Mad Jack]

Just the interest on your total loans is going to be between $56,000 and $80,000 per year, depending on where interest rates go in the future. And you won't be able to use IBR or PAYE to have your debt forgiven, as the tax bomb will be larger than your original debt- you could very well end up owing the IRS 7 figures if your loans were to be forgiven after making the minimum payments for 25 years in a low-paying specialty.

 

[deleted564496]

I don't understand why people don't just live like a college student after their first couple years of residency and pay off the loans as quick as possible... You have to imagine you're going to be making 140k + regardless of what you do (before taxes). Granted I came into medical school with little debt from undergraduate and I'm at a state school so tuition isn't terrible... But I'll still be 200k in debt by the time I graduate, probably 300k by the time I'm done with residency, but if you're single or even just don't have kids.. I really don't get why you need to make minimum payments your whole life.

I'm only an MS-2 so I know things can change, but I plan on paying mine back ASAP. I'm talking within five years of being an attending. Seriously, I could have a baller life right now if I had even 40k/year to play with (like I said--no kids). I don't know, just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[jeffk805dent]

I don't understand why people don't just live like a college student after their first couple years of residency and pay off the loans as quick as possible... You have to imagine you're going to be making 140k + regardless of what you do (before taxes). Granted I came into medical school with little debt from undergraduate and I'm at a state school so tuition isn't terrible... But I'll still be 200k in debt by the time I graduate, probably 300k by the time I'm done with residency, but if you're single or even just don't have kids.. I really don't get why you need to make minimum payments your whole life.

I'm only an MS-2 so I know things can change, but I plan on paying mine back ASAP. I'm talking within five years of being an attending. Seriously, I could have a baller life right now if I had even 40k/year to play with (like I said--no kids). I don't know, just doesn't make sense to me.

depending on what state and city you live in, you would be surprised how much that $140k gets reduced. And if the rebuttal is to move to another place, some of these posters have a spouse or SO that cannot simply move their job somewhere else.

 

[bc65]

OP: Look for the Medscape and MGMA surveys that some posters referred to above.
But the overall answer seems to be that primary care physicians earn about 200-250k per year, and higher paid specialists between 300-450k per year, in some cases 500 k per year, with some rare higher paid outliers ( eg spine ). While I'm not sure that those numbers are completely correct, they are
probably reasonable ballpark figures, at least for your purposes. However, you can't predict what specialty you will end up in nor can we know what will happen to physician compensation in the future.

I think physicians that went to school when they paid $10k/year for tuition at 3% interest have NO IDEA what our current generation is facing with $50k tuition at 7.9% interest and the looming death of fee for service. So I'd take this advice with a big grain of salt.

Please tell me exactly when medical school was 10K while interest rates were 3%. 3% interest rates are NOW. These are historically low interest rates. Tuition was 10k in the 1980's. Here are the interest rates for student loans during the 1980s, mostly capped at 12%. Note that at 12%, your balance doubles every 6 years.

http://www.finaid.org/loans/historicalrates.phtml

Some examples from that webpage:

" For example, from October 1, 1981 to October 1, 1992, interest rates on the SLS loans were fixed rates that changed annually with various caps (14.0%, 12.0%, 9.0%, 8.0% and 7.0%).
From July 1, 1988 to October 1, 1992, this loan had a fixed rate of 8% from disbursement to four years after the loan entered repayment, and 10% thereafter.
Variable rates were introduced on July 1, 1987, and one could convert a fixed rate loan into a variable rate loan through January 1, 1995 using a refinancing mechanism."

1992-93 7.36% (4.26 + 3.1%, cap 10.0%)
1991-92 9.34% (6.09 + 3.25%, cap 12.0%)
1990-91 11.49% (8.24 + 3.25%, cap 12.0%)
1989-90 12.00% (9.15 + 3.25%, cap 12.0%)
1988-89 10.45% (7.20 + 3.25%, cap 12.0%)
1987-88 10.27% (7.02 + 3.25%, cap 12.0%)


In 1980, interns in NY earned $18,000 a year. Today, they earn $55,000. That's a difference of $37,000. Even after taxes, that will pay off the difference in tuition expense for a year of tuition. Yes, living expenses are higher, but when you calculate inflation over the years, tuition is only modestly higher now than it was then, and you have tuition forgiveness programs and overall lower interest rates on loans now then you had then.

Plus, now you don't have to work 145 hour weeks as an intern.

 

[stsa84]

To actually answer your question...

If you know of a couple specialties you're interested in, check out those specific forums on SDN. Chances are there's a front page post on those sub-forums, asking those actually in the field what average salaries usually run. You'll likely get some ballpark figures, and can ask specifically on those forums if you need clarification. Have fun in med school, and don't sweat the future.

 

[Stagg737]

The doximity salary maps are pretty good. Though you have to be a doc to access them I think.

Nope, as long as you're a medical student (or resident) you can access the doximity reports. Agree, doximity has some decent reports on there to go off.

Also, @bc65 where are you getting that 3% number? Stafford loans are 6.7% and GradPlus loans are 8.6%...

 

[Zebra Hunter]

Ignore the medicine purists, do what's best for you and your family. Google the Medscape compensation report for the most recent year, I forget if they have a 2015 one available. They should give you a rough estimate of averages among regions, specialties, and practice types. Its pretty unlikely that salaries will change as drastically as individuals are implying will happen in the next 7-8 years.

 

[link2swim06]

Why is an INCOMING med student already worried about physician salaries? You haven't even set foot into a med school and you are already dreaming about the salaries.

In another 2015 thread you said "I will be an MS1 in Medical School this Fall."

It's a valid concern to know the salary for a career. Some advanced financial planning is a very good idea.

While money shouldn't be the only motivation for entering a field....the bottom line is this is a job and nothing more. Drop the romantic ****...your job will rewarding...but you don't (and should have to be) mother teresa to be a good doctor.

I bet over half the people on this thread wouldn't do medicine if you only made 75K/year.

 

[link2swim06]

I don't understand why people don't just live like a college student after their first couple years of residency and pay off the loans as quick as possible... You have to imagine you're going to be making 140k + regardless of what you do (before taxes). Granted I came into medical school with little debt from undergraduate and I'm at a state school so tuition isn't terrible... But I'll still be 200k in debt by the time I graduate, probably 300k by the time I'm done with residency, but if you're single or even just don't have kids.. I really don't get why you need to make minimum payments your whole life.

I'm only an MS-2 so I know things can change, but I plan on paying mine back ASAP. I'm talking within five years of being an attending. Seriously, I could have a baller life right now if I had even 40k/year to play with (like I said--no kids). I don't know, just doesn't make sense to me.

Because up until a few years ago you could consolidate into a super low interest rate....1-3%.

Now that the interest rates are higher I bet people pay them off faster.

 

[deleted500612]

Don't go to medical school if you have $300,000 of debt from undergrad and looking at getting another $300,000-400,000 in debt. Unless you're doing MD/PhD or getting a free ride.

lol, u fkn wot m8? The whole point of going to an Ivy league school for undergrad (I'm assuming that is what the OP did to even begin to justify a 300k undergrad debt, otherwise he's just plain stupid) is to put yourself in a position to gain entry to more prestigious medicine, law, business schools etc. and ultimately maximize your chances for a competitive high-paying specialty where paying off that kind of a loan will be manageable. What would you propose alternatively? He should forego graduate studies and take 20 years to pay off his 300k undergrad debt while earning 70k as an engineer or whatever? (Depending on what he studied in undergrad, he might not even be able to make even that much). Paying off a 700k loan as a surgeon is a lot easier than paying off a 300k loan with nothing but an undergraduate degree.

 

[tiedyeddog]

I bet over half the people on this thread wouldn't do medicine if you only made 75K/year.

I sure as hell wouldn't have. If I could have gone to undergrad and somehow become a practicing doctor after only 4-5 years of that then I would have done it for 75k/year but not with all the rigors and time of medical school + residency.

 

[Dave89]

lol, u fkn wot m8? The whole point of going to an Ivey league school for undergrad (I'm assuming that is what the OP did to even begin to justify a 300k undergrad debt, otherwise he's just plain stupid) is to put yourself in a position to be top of your class in medicine, law, business etc. and ultimately maximize your chances for a competitive high-paying specialty where paying off that kind of a loan will be manageable. What would you propose alternatively? He should forego graduate studies and take 20 years to pay off his 300k undergrad debt while earning 70k as an engineer or whatever? (Depending on what he studied in undergrad, he might not even be able to make even that much). Paying off a 700k loan as a surgeon is a lot easier than paying off a 300k loan with nothing but an undergraduate degree.

I'll tell you what - why don't you set up poll asking how many people think it's wise to add 400K in medical school loans to an already-existing debt of 300K?

Also, one's undergraduate institution has nothing to do with one's performance in medical school.

 

[bc65]

Also, @@bc65 where are you getting that 3% number? Stafford loans are 6.7% and GradPlus loans are 8.6%...

Sorry I wasn't clear on that. I was specifically referring to current mortgage rates, which are indeed at 3%, a historically unprecedented level. Student loans are higher than that now, but could have been had or consolidated at that rate a few years ago. Current rates are still pretty reasonable compared to historic mortgage rates, which were about 7%. You can't expect student loans, or mortgage rates, to be at 3%. These are freakish numbers, and represent a historic anomaly.

My overall point is that you can't complain about current tuition rates without looking at the big picture. Currrent student loan interest rates are quite reasonable by historic standards, and if you want to go back in time and pay tuition of 40 years ago, you will also earn the salary of 40 years ago and pay the interest rates of 40 years ago. If you run the numbers, you will probably come out ahead today.

Physician salaries however seem to have peaked a while back, once inflation is taken into account, but I don't feel like doing the research to figure out when that was.

 

[Dave89]

Physician salaries however seem to have peaked a while back, once inflation is taken into account, but I don't feel like doing the research to figure out when that was.

~Early 90s, perhaps?

 

[Stagg737]

I'll tell you what - why don't you set up poll asking how many people think it's wise to add 400K in medical school loans to an already-existing debt of 300K?

Also, one's undergraduate institution has nothing to do with one's performance in medical school.

Idk where 400k in debt for med school is coming from, but that seems pretty high for most schools unless we're talking 60k/year in tuition plus interest. Obviously adding debt is never wise if you can avoid it, but I'd rather be 600-700k in debt with a med school degree where I can earn 150-350k/yr than 300k in debt with a bachelor's in biology where I only earn 40-50k any day.

 

[Dave89]

Idk where 400k in debt for med school is coming from, but that seems pretty high for most schools unless we're talking 60k/year in tuition plus interest. Obviously adding debt is never wise if you can avoid it, but I'd rather be 600-700k in debt with a med school degree where I can earn 150-350k/yr than 300k in debt with a bachelor's in biology where I only earn 40-50k any day.

Something else that I had intended to include in my earlier post is that there is absolutely no reason to go to a medical school whose bill will run you 350-400K. Wait another cycle and reapply to state schools if need be.

 

[Slack3r]

OP: Look for the Medscape and MGMA surveys that some posters referred to above.
But the overall answer seems to be that primary care physicians earn about 200-250k per year, and higher paid specialists between 300-450k per year, in some cases 500 k per year, with some rare higher paid outliers ( eg spine ). While I'm not sure that those numbers are completely correct, they are
probably reasonable ballpark figures, at least for your purposes. However, you can't predict what specialty you will end up in nor can we know what will happen to physician compensation in the future.




Please tell me exactly when medical school was 10K while interest rates were 3%. 3% interest rates are NOW. These are historically low interest rates. Tuition was 10k in the 1980's. Here are the interest rates for student loans during the 1980s, mostly capped at 12%. Note that at 12%, your balance doubles every 6 years.

http://www.finaid.org/loans/historicalrates.phtml

Some examples from that webpage:

" For example, from October 1, 1981 to October 1, 1992, interest rates on the SLS loans were fixed rates that changed annually with various caps (14.0%, 12.0%, 9.0%, 8.0% and 7.0%).
From July 1, 1988 to October 1, 1992, this loan had a fixed rate of 8% from disbursement to four years after the loan entered repayment, and 10% thereafter.
Variable rates were introduced on July 1, 1987, and one could convert a fixed rate loan into a variable rate loan through January 1, 1995 using a refinancing mechanism."

1992-93 7.36% (4.26 + 3.1%, cap 10.0%)
1991-92 9.34% (6.09 + 3.25%, cap 12.0%)
1990-91 11.49% (8.24 + 3.25%, cap 12.0%)
1989-90 12.00% (9.15 + 3.25%, cap 12.0%)
1988-89 10.45% (7.20 + 3.25%, cap 12.0%)
1987-88 10.27% (7.02 + 3.25%, cap 12.0%)


In 1980, interns in NY earned $18,000 a year. Today, they earn $55,000. That's a difference of $37,000. Even after taxes, that will pay off the difference in tuition expense for a year of tuition. Yes, living expenses are higher, but when you calculate inflation over the years, tuition is only modestly higher now than it was then, and you have tuition forgiveness programs and overall lower interest rates on loans now then you had then.

Plus, now you don't have to work 145 hour weeks as an intern.

I'm not reading that wall of uninformed text, but grad loans are locked in at 7.9%. Not sure where you're getting these 3% loans.

 

[deleted500612]

Also, one's undergraduate institution has nothing to do with one's performance in medical school.

I would tend to agree, I guess I didn't really articulate what I meant properly. If you graduate from Harvard, most medical schools are going to be far more impressed and rank you higher than they would if you had the same GPA from a State school. This will help you get into more prestigious and highly ranked medical schools, which will in turn help you obtain a more competitive residency. Just the reality of it.

I'm not saying that taking on that kind of debt to go this route is the smart thing to do, but that is the idea behind it and there are plenty of people out there who care a lot more about the prestige they gain from a certain alma mater than they do about their amount of debt. People who do choose this route though, should not get cold feet half way through the process... that is probably the single worst life decision you could possibly make after investing 300k into your education.

 

[PL198]

I don't understand why people don't just live like a college student after their first couple years of residency and pay off the loans as quick as possible... You have to imagine you're going to be making 140k + regardless of what you do (before taxes). Granted I came into medical school with little debt from undergraduate and I'm at a state school so tuition isn't terrible... But I'll still be 200k in debt by the time I graduate, probably 300k by the time I'm done with residency, but if you're single or even just don't have kids.. I really don't get why you need to make minimum payments your whole life.

I'm only an MS-2 so I know things can change, but I plan on paying mine back ASAP. I'm talking within five years of being an attending. Seriously, I could have a baller life right now if I had even 40k/year to play with (like I said--no kids). I don't know, just doesn't make sense to me.

he's going to have 700k in debt. half of which is at 7 % and the other half at whatever undergrad loans are. that's 40k+ / yr in interest alone.

 

[PL198]

Idk where 400k in debt for med school is coming from, but that seems pretty high for most schools unless we're talking 60k/year in tuition plus interest. Obviously adding debt is never wise if you can avoid it, but I'd rather be 600-700k in debt with a med school degree where I can earn 150-350k/yr than 300k in debt with a bachelor's in biology where I only earn 40-50k any day.

so would I but someone that pays 300k to earn 40k a year is an idiot to the nth level

 

[PL198]

I'm interested in how OP decided to go to probably most expensive undergrad possible along with one of most expensive medical schools. Are you trying to burn through money?

 

[Psai]

I don't understand why people don't just live like a college student after their first couple years of residency and pay off the loans as quick as possible... You have to imagine you're going to be making 140k + regardless of what you do (before taxes). Granted I came into medical school with little debt from undergraduate and I'm at a state school so tuition isn't terrible... But I'll still be 200k in debt by the time I graduate, probably 300k by the time I'm done with residency, but if you're single or even just don't have kids.. I really don't get why you need to make minimum payments your whole life.

I'm only an MS-2 so I know things can change, but I plan on paying mine back ASAP. I'm talking within five years of being an attending. Seriously, I could have a baller life right now if I had even 40k/year to play with (like I said--no kids). I don't know, just doesn't make sense to me.

Because literally no one lives like a college student. You have a car, a mortgage, kids, all these insurances and bills that you have to pay, oops your boiler broke you have to replace it, oh now you have to take your board exam please pay thousands of dollars for a multiple choice exam, you got a new job so please pay the movers, wait a second why can't you just live like a college student

 

[NontradCA]

OP, why didn't you just have rich parents? That would've solved your dilemma.

 

[NickNaylor]

I know someone who did this.

Single, staying on as faculty at the institution he did residency at.

So he just kept his same car, stayed in his same apartment, and worked like a dog for three years and paid it all off. Celebrated his new financial freedom with a big vacation.

But yes, most people have other life stuff going on that eats into the money really quickly.

The other thing is...and I recognize the slight vanity in this...we've already put up with a decade of delayed gratification and either no salary (school) or low salary (residency). It's hard to delay that even more voluntarily.

And, if PSLF/PAYE do hold up (obviously politically contentious) it absolutely does make sense to just pay the minimum until forgiveness kicks in (esp uncapped PSLF).

I discussed the PSLF/PAYE topic in another thread, but it actually isn't as "good of a deal" as I thought. When I did my exit counseling with our financial aid director a couple of months ago, I would essentially get ~$50k forgiven if I made the minimum IBR payments and assuming a (very) low average salary the AAMC provides. I'm going into a field that requires four years of training, so the question ultimately becomes: can I find a job that will pay me more than $50k over six years at an institution that doesn't qualify for PSLF? I'd argue yes. I have no interest in academics beyond teaching, so for me at least working in an academic or other non-profit position would likely be a "sacrifice" on the salary front that, in strictly economic terms, doesn't make sense. Depending on your field, ambitions, and total debt burden, waiting out the PSLF forgiveness period may not actually pay off. Obviously the calculus is a bit different if you're in a field with a long residency (like yourself), and/or want to do fellowship, and/or want to work in academics.

FWIW, our financial aid guy follows the politics surrounding PSLF, and his analysis is that the program will likely remain but changed in one of two ways: the forgiveness income will be taxed (idea generally put forward by the Republicans) or the forgiveness amount will be capped (idea generally put forward by the Democrats). I guess we'll see what ends up happening. Hopefully the program falls under the radar and avoids the scrutiny of penny-pinching legislators.

 

[PL198]

isn't it currently taxed?

 

[NickNaylor]

isn't it currently taxed?

I'm not sure TBH.

Edit: apparently not - https://studentaid.ed.gov/sites/default/files/public-service-loan-forgiveness-common-questions.pdf.

 

[NickNaylor]

This is all fair especially if you are in a shorter training program and not interested in academics.

For me on the other hand...9 of the 10 years will be in training :-/

Yeah, in that case it makes perfect sense. I suppose I'm just throwing this out there for those that might be in a similar position. I never really did the math and just assumed PSLF was a no-brainer, but depending upon your circumstances it may not be the best option financially.