OMM is the thin string that allows the 30 or so DO schools in this country to remain open, it allows the people who work at these schools to remain employed, it allows those of us who are students to become physicians. What seems like a small thing is a very big deal. If it wasn't for OMM, every single DO School would shut their doors.
Accused of being a closet allopath....
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OMM is the thin string that allows the 30 or so DO schools in this country to remain open, it allows the people who work at these schools to remain employed, it allows those of us who are students to become physicians. What seems like a small thing is a very big deal. If it wasn't for OMM, every single DO School would shut their doors.
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I think there is a possibility of a post-OMM existence for DO schools. Osteopathic Medicine is still fundamentally medicine and a paradigm.
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What are you talking about?
Every single DO school teaches students to become physicians. Every single one of them covers all the same material as MD schools, with an extra 200 hours tacked on. You can value that 200 hours or not, and you can believe that it is based in a deeper philosophical distinction or not, but to say that removing it would cause the schools to crumble is beyond ridiculous.
I actually discussed this with several faculty members, they strongly disagree, OMM is the backbone of the discipline.
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It's a view and opinion. I think reductions in OMM would not take away the osteopathicness of DOs.
I believe you mentioned completely removing OMM from the curriculum, that would mean that DO schools would become MD schools, either that or they would cease to exist, one of the two outcomes. Neither of these would ever occur because no school is ever going to remove OMM from the curriculum, ever. Some schools might de-prioritize it compared to others but that is it.
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Many doctors would just give that same patient a dangerous, addictive drug that would lessen their pain for about 3-6 hours. Sure, they have to take it again and again, but if your complaint about OMM is that it might need to be repeated, then I argue that many therapeutic interventions have that flaw.
If you are saying that it isn't an imposition on the patient to have multiple therapy appointments, then how is it different to have them drop in to see you for 5-10 minutes multiple times? I'd say that being able to follow up with their primary care doc for an ongoing pain issue, rather than having to go see a separate therapist, would be a benefit to the patient and to the physician.
If their dysfunction kept coming back, that could be a signal to you that something else might be going on... one of those more serious concerns and needs. My professors have plenty of stories of uncovering the underlying disease process that triggered the somatic dysfunction. Would the physical therapist pick up on the gastric ulcer that was causing the referred pain that lead to the muscle spasm? That, as much as treatment of pain is the value that I see in OMM. It provides opportunity to look a little deeper.
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Idk, if it were me I'd tell them to go see a physical therapist. Chances are 3 times a week and an hour a session >>>> 10 minutes OMM & come back in 2 weeks. And I disagree, a physical therapist spends 3 entire years doing therapy, I spent 2-3 hours a week.
Also regarding the gastric ulcer, yes, they actually would. 3 years of training specifically in treatment is a stronger background than we get, that's simply the way it is.
I mean if you're specifically an OMM specialist it's different. You have the training and your practice is entirely focused on it and as such you can schedule accordingly. For a FM doctor to practice OMM seems ineffective.
Also regarding the gastric ulcer, yes, they actually would. 3 years of training specifically in treatment is a stronger background than we get, that's simply the way it is.
I mean if you're specifically an OMM specialist it's different. You have the training and your practice is entirely focused on it and as such you can schedule accordingly. For a FM doctor to practice OMM seems ineffective.
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Of course the faculty at a COM believe that OMM is the backbone. That's why they work at a COM...
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Agreed.
Viscerosomatic reflexes and referred pain causing muscle spasm seem reasonable-- I can buy into that if you have somatic pain that won't go away, it makes sense to look into visceral causes. I wouldn't call that kool-aid.
When you keep that going and proceed to tell me we can fix GERD by poking at a Chapman's points in intercostal space 5... that's strong Koolaid.
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Or palpate the celiac ganglion on the anterior surface of the LSpine by placing your fingers on the anterior surface of the stomach through a good 8 inches of tissue - really?
And cranial makes me want to laugh --- our professors went from a pulsating neuron in a petri dish to palpating the mitochondrial oxygen transport pathway -- when they were called on it, they quickly got a little slippery with their definitions ----
And, no, I'm not a closet M.D. but a D.O. that wonders why we're pouring all that funding into the ORC and no basic cranial research has been accomplished --- like putting measuring lasers on the surfaces of the skull to determine if cranial bones really do move at all or at least to a palpable amount on a living, breathing human?
or going down to a cath lab and palpating people to determine if the OMM theory states they should have dysfunction and then immediately cath them to see if it holds up --
and a closet M.D. -- ok, most of us here were treated by M.D.'s so they can't be all that bad ---
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Dude, those drugs have been and still are given out like candy. I've worked with a lot of addicts whose well-meaning docs bought into the mid 90s drumbeat of "you can't get addicted if you are really in pain." I've lost loved ones to iatrogenic addiction. I had a little soft tissue surgery and was sent home with scripts for 3 separate opiates, including oral freaking demerol. Just because you might have the good sense not to do it doesn't mean that opiate over prescription isn't a thing.
If someone has pain that requires pharmacological analgesics, I will absolutely consider opiates. I am not one for throwing away good tools just because they don't apply to every situation. But I have personally experienced lasting pain relief from OMM which exceeds any that I've had from either back/foot rubs or NSAIDs.
Don't like it? Don't use it. Why must you always bash others for finding benefit in it?
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I'm assuming you haven't played a ton of sports at a high level, otherwise it would be pretty obvious that there are quite a few acute injuries/tweaks that can be helped with a single OMT session. Posterior rib is a perfect example of one which several of my classmates (myself included) had one and have not had the issue since that single lab when we learned how to treat it. If you're talking chronic injuries or more serious problems, then yes, PT would likely help more in the long run than OMT every other week. Keep in mind though that there are several profs at our school that make a killing in their clinics and they primarily practice OMT.
I highly doubt the bolded. I considered going the PT route and have shadowed a few and been treated by many PTs. They may have knowledge of the msk system that is near to what a typical family practitioner would have, but they are FAR less experienced or knowledgable in terms of other body systems or identifying pathologies associated with them.
Those studies actually have been done, and our professor made sure we knew they were out there. They apparently showed that there was 400-600 microns of movement in the cranial bones (2500 microns is an inch) and that movement could be palpated, but that there was variability between physicians about identifying the direction/extent. I'll buy that the cranial bones do have some minimal movement, but I'm going to need a whole lot more evidence before I buy into the idea that cranial manipulation can actually provide any measurable treatment to patients beyond a placebo for most conditions though.
There are plenty of people out there that don't believe in the Easter bunny that believe in much crazier things than cranial or Chapman's. Look at the entire anti-vaxx movement. Or read anything on this website:http://www.spiritualistresources.com/cgi-bin/selfhealing/index.pl?read=34
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Not really, I'm a slug tbh. It's just that from my limited view is seems like the biggest somatic dysfunction a normal doctor will see is going to be an achy back from 10 years of computer work or heavy lifting. I'm not saying that OMT cannot help, I just cannot imagine giving the patient the same amount or quality of care for that issue as a PT who will spend upwards of 3 hours a week for something if severe.
But that's my opinion. Medicine is very segmented and sub specialized, even general primary care is specialized and has to rely on others to preform certain tasks. I.e a nurse or MA drawing blood while you move on to the next patient or etc.
But that's my opinion. Medicine is very segmented and sub specialized, even general primary care is specialized and has to rely on others to preform certain tasks. I.e a nurse or MA drawing blood while you move on to the next patient or etc.
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I think that one of main thing that separates DO schools from MD schools is how little clinical and bench research is usually done. Heck, my school only has 6 funded grants in the entire college, and most of them are about to expire. I think the interest that would've gone into research eventually manifests into other important things that adds to our worth as physicians, like serving rural and medically underserved communities. That alone would keep the doors open. Just look at WVSOM for example!
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And they didn't do themselves any favors when 1) They dressed up like A.T. Still incarnate -- down to the goatee and dark three piece suite but smoked like a chimney and were determined that harder was better 2) Upon repeat questioning, kept mistaking the inferior angle of the scapula for the scapular spine after insisting that they were anatomy studs 3) absolutely refused to admit that Kuchera & Kuchera (the big white book) had a mistake in which muscle was responsible for the first 15 degrees of abduction -- we had to actually ask the anatomy professors for clarification as the two textbooks were exactly the opposite -- so for OMM tests it was one answer, for anatomy it was another -- that's when the term "OMM - To- English translator" came into being at our campus --- What really topped it off was when we had given the department so much hell for things like this as class that they decided to teach us a lesson and came up with an exam which a vast majority of the class failed -- during the post-exam review, we kept asking about certain questions and they kept referring to "it was in the assigned reading in the syllabus" -- and with the associate dean of medical education and the OMS2 "proctor" in the room, we calmly pointed out that there were no reading assignments in the syllabus -- it was interesting watching all the blood drain from their faces -- the questions under discussion were thrown out if they were not in the PPTs -- things got a lot more friendly after that ----
It's that kind of thing that just really turned me off of OMM and I was really excited about going to a place where the ORC was actually on campus, figuring we'd be learning evidence based OMM --- not so much ---
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That sounds horrific... Was that a west coast school?
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As spectacularly awful as that sounds, it seems like an indictment of an academic department, not of the subject itself.
The poor adjunct who "taught" my intro physics course barely knew what school she was at half the time, and certainly couldn't correct errors in her own example equations. She admitted that she didn't really know the material herself, that she was just copying directly out of the solution manual. The class basically taught ourselves from the book and we tried to teach her a little of what we were learning as the semester wore on.
Kinetics still works, even though, in that instance, it was very poorly taught.
I'm sorry to hear that you had such a poor experience of learning OMM. Mine seems to be going much better, and I have already learned so much that I am absolutely going to apply in practice. (Before the same tired trolls bring up their favorite topic: We haven't gotten to cranial or chapman's points yet, and it may be that those bits are as terrible as people here say. But even if that is so, it doesn't make the techniques that I've learned so far any less useful or effective.)
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What's your opinion of Lymphathics? Beyond maybe the raising of the ribs I don't think the whole milking lymph makes any sense.
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One of the reasons KCU won in my book is because almost every faculty member is either an expert in their field of study, well published and or currently publishing in high profile journals, or is a high profile practicing physician. I mean our FM department head is the sports medicine physician for the Royals and others are pretty high quality from what I hear. I mean, you don't get that in many DO schools, though I imagine it has to do with most DO schools being in generally undesirable locations ( No leading researcher is going to go live in Kirksvile for ex.).
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I have lymph Greg, could you milk me?
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surely you can't be serious
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Well that's surprising to hear! The PhD faculty I do see at COMs are usually occupying preclinical teaching positions with little or no capacity for research.
Most physician scientists (MD/PhD/MS or DO/PhD/MS) can't hold a candle to the quality and the amount of research pure PhDs put out, especially the PhDs from large universities. I see a lot of these physician scientists putting out less involved papers in journals with relatively low impact factors or having some sort of difficulty funding their projects because they can't turn out grants as often as their PhD counterparts. Neuronix from the MD/DO/PhD section of SDN wrote a lot about his experience in research kind of echoing this problem.
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A couple of KCUMB FM docs would vounteer to go do down the the Dominican Republic where the Royals have a training academy. They are NOT the team docs for the Royals. It always bothered me when they would try to make that leap...
KU Orthopedics is the "Official Healthcare Provider" to the Chiefs and the Royals.
Don't drink the Kool-Aid
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... a bunch of simple tricks and nonsense if you ask me.
- H. Solo
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That quote has always bothered me. He's was probably alive for the Jedi purge (if only a baby), but he and everyone else seemed to forget all about how the Jedi could really use the Force. That's like just refusing to believe pay phones were a thing.
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Dat UE lymphatic pump tho'...
Aren't you a ms1?
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True. From the sound of the rest of the characters though it seems likely that the empire waged some sort of propaganda war afterward and for a time making them, the Jedi, out to be a bunch of quacks.
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Absolutely. But I mean how do you make people forget what was ingrained. That's like a decade from now no one in the south believes that southern baptistism is a real religion. It seems just flat out impossible (and not an indictment on southern baptism, just picking a faith deeply ingrained in culture and spirituality of a region).
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The ORC is not on the campus of a West Coast School, verstehst du?
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Because you twist the truth. Also don't forget Palpatine surely used intimidation and fear for those who were caught speaking highly of the "old way". Think the red scare in the U.S. just a few decades ago but on an intergalactic scale with someone in charge willing to make an example out of any dissidents.
Also- before Disney took over- Solo was an Imperial cadet/tie-fighter pilot before factioning. His family was then likely in agreement with the empire and wouldn't have been spreading tales of when the Jedi were running **** as Han grew up.
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Stupid iPad.
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I see your point --- but as representatives of the academic department that everyone states is the anchor of what makes us different from allopaths (which is not true, BTW but the AOA and AAO haven't figured out after all these years how to communicate what makes us different) any upgefucht'ing that occurs tends to associate with the topic itself -- you would think by now that someone would have sat down and looked at how to communicate the body of knowledge that is OMM/OPP and then collaborated with physical medicine colleagues (PT, DC, physiatrists) to determine the universal truths of manipulative medicine and really started to develop this aspect of medicine in terms of textbooks, curriculum development, etc. If you want to maintain your "uniqueness", let's make sure you're unique in the first place, not practicing juju medicine or spiritualism masked as medicine and then that we can reproduce what you're doing -- too often I have seen someone and myself been accused of being "too allopathic" by old line D.O.'s when in actuality the 'osteopathic difference" was merely an excuse for a poor, haphazard workup ---
OMM/OPP is too entrenched in the system and held onto by people who were "discriminated" against years ago, are likely funded by the "uniqueness" of OMM/OPP and refuse to admit that there's really not much of a difference -- they've achieved the objective of equality that they fought so long for -- too bad no one ever thought about what happens when you become equal -- you get absorbed unless you can really prove a tangible difference --- and being different can imply non-equal unless you really make a strong argument for the difference -- which, alas, we have not ---
So what if he's the physician for a minor league team? :-D
The great EU purge. It was like a million stories cried out in terror... and then silence.
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You make a good point about Han having been raised in what would likely have been a pro-imperial household and thus drinking the Kool-aid.
Come for what the OP said, stay for the Star Wars.
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Come to the Dark Side.....We have....cookies....
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What century are you/they in? Here: "The relative decline in dependence on osteopathic manipulative treatment over the years is imperfectly reflected in the changing focus of the Journal of the American Osteopathic Association. In the early 1930s OMT was still included in the majority of articles and was described with great care and detail... By the end of the 1950s most JAOA articles failed to mention OMT, and when they did it was only briefly and more as an adjunct than as an integral part of patient management." - Gevitz, p. 107
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I'd potentially use petrissage/effleurage with patients if they had edema. The MD that treated my grandmother used it on her and it did help alleviate some of her discomfort. Plus our athletic trainer would do it on people in college and we all were legitimately less sore the next day than the times we didn't get the techniques performed on us. Idk what the mechanism behind that would be, but I wouldn't be surprised if it had to do with helping to move some of the acidic build-up out of the muscles. I'd also be willing to consider tapotement, though I'd probably do some research into journal articles before deciding if I would actually administer it. As far as stuff like pedal pump or facial raking, I highly doubt I'd ever use that, but almost every section has a few techniques that I would probably consider using given the right patient presentation.
Another thing to keep in mind while learning OMT is that the majority of techniques aren't meant to be primary treatment. They're supplemental techniques to use which will supposedly help 'restore balance' and speed up the healing process. You can argue whether or not that actually happens, but if I can alleviate some of the pain or discomfort my patient feels from their illness, I see no reason not to perform the techniques as long as they don't cause adverse affects. Ultimately, our goals as physicians are to get our patients to a better state of health if they present with a problem. So if an OMT technique can help reach that goal, I think it's worth consideration.
I think one of them is considered to be part of the team staff, otherwise Idk how he would have a team ring for being American League Champions.
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They give those out to anyone even tangentially related to the team. Ticket takers get those. I know a guy who coached for the local select kids team that officially shared the name of the local NHL team. He got a ring. They give those out like a $2 hooker does STDs.
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Idk what NHL team that was, but I know 2 people that work as admins under the marketing VP for my team and they didn't get rings. Maybe it's team and sport dependent. Idk. I also shadowed an ex-NBA team physician (in his clinic, not at any game, unfortunately), and while he had a ring, he said players and coach's rings were really nice and then the ancillary staff that had direct contact with players got a 'second tier' ring. Idk how many they give out, but the NBA guy made it sound like it really wasn't all that common.
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Alright, in an attempt to try to end this tangent, here's the roster of the official medical staff for the KC Royals. There are NO members of the KCUMB faculty on this list.
http://kansascity.royals.mlb.com/team/front_office.jsp?c_id=kc
http://kansascity.royals.mlb.com/team/front_office.jsp?c_id=kc
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And here are all the team physicians in professional basketball, baseball, and football:
http://www.beckersspine.com/lists/item/10614-92-team-physicians-for-professional-basketball.html
http://www.beckersorthopedicandspin...ine-team-physicians-for-major-league-baseball
http://www.beckersorthopedicandspin...ine-team-physicians-for-professional-football
http://www.beckersspine.com/lists/item/10614-92-team-physicians-for-professional-basketball.html
http://www.beckersorthopedicandspin...ine-team-physicians-for-major-league-baseball
http://www.beckersorthopedicandspin...ine-team-physicians-for-professional-football
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That is the greatest gif I've ever seen.
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The Bulls need all of those docs just for D-Rose's knee
