Active Military MD and Happy?

[feenix]

I have read almost every thread including the Pro's and Con's list, and as I sit here getting ready to apply to med school and am seriously considering Navy HPSP, i was just curious:

Is there any Active Military MD, 2, 4, 8 years or more in, that actually likes their job, and does not regret their decision to the point of hating themselves?

I look forward to reading any and all responses...(Happy Memorial Day weekend)

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[i want out]

I have read almost every thread including the Pro's and Con's list, and as I sit here getting ready to apply to med school and am seriously considering Navy HPSP, i was just curious:

Is there any Active Military MD, 2, 4, 8 years or more in, that actually likes their job, and does not regret their decision to the point of hating themselves?

I look forward to reading any and all responses...(Happy Memorial Day weekend)

even if you get a few positive responses, you need to think about the odds that you can predict the future well enough to say that the military will be a good fit for you.

HPSP is a contract that essentially charts the path for your next 9 years minimum, or realisticly closer to 12 years.

If you think you can predict what the military will be doing in 10 years, then you need to check back into the padded room.

If you can truly forecast exactly what your priorities and life will be like in 10 years, then you need to start looking into the lottery.

good luck

i want out

 

[feenix]

"If you think you can predict what the military will be doing in 10 years, then you need to check back into the padded room.

If you can truly forecast exactly what your priorities and life will be like in 10 years, then you need to start looking into the lottery."


Thank you for responding.

I do not think I can predict what the military will be doing tomorrow let alone 12 years from now, but I don't think anyone can predict what their next day brings whether they want to be doctors or not.

This is a big decision for anyone of us, and I am just trying to do as much research as possible. I truly get it, the military may pay for school but you give back much much more on the "back end." Lives will be sacrificed my own, and should I ever get married, my wife's and the lives of my kids. There will be a tremendous amount of bullS$@! to deal with, and officers abusing their powers.

But in the wake of the horrible Walter Reed conditions coming to light, I think that if any of the issues people complain about are going to be addressed, now might be the time.

I know the con's probably outweigh the pro's, and saying that I realize still considering it may justify me to be called crazy, but I am just curious if anyone out there enjoys being both a physician and an officer in the United States Military?

I think that is only fair to ask and to be answered given the amount of negitive posts put up, for all of us who come here to try and learn more and hear about both sides. And maybe the fact that of the 80 some people who I think have seen this post now and have had nothing to say, says it all, or maybe they are just like me hoping someone will have something positive to say, even if it is for no other reason then a change of pace on here.

 

[AF M4]

Heh, Confucius say, "Show me man who post positive thing on Internet forum, I show you man with something to sell."

There have actually been lots of posts with positive things to say about the military, and all of them have to do with serving the best patient population in the world.

Otherwise...well, I'm just a freshly minted doctor (but keeping the screen name) on a civilian internship and I already have a serious beef with the military (see Residency Match Process, Screwjob) so yeah, caveat emptor.

Anyway, I'll mention my standard line to all potential HPSPers: take out your loans and look into the FAP program after med school, when you have a better idea where your life is headed and/or have a solid idea of the number of illegimate children your salary has to support. The military will always be there for you if you want it.

 

[USAFdoc]

I have read almost every thread including the Pro's and Con's list, and as I sit here getting ready to apply to med school and am seriously considering Navy HPSP, i was just curious:

Is there any Active Military MD, 2, 4, 8 years or more in, that actually likes their job, and does not regret their decision to the point of hating themselves?

I look forward to reading any and all responses...(Happy Memorial Day weekend)

I have been on this site for 2-3 years, and met/knew docs from aroung the USAF (mostly Family docs). I have seen very few docs (although there are some) post positively on the site.

1) The VAST VAST majority of docs feel milmed has too many serious flaws, and they are leaving.

2) Many of the positive responses are either from med students, residents, or Admin physicians.

I will say that life as a FP civilian doc is challenging as well, and I am convinced that if the civilian docs were under the same contract that the milmed docs have (here is your salary, now you will take the staff, the manning, the infrastructure and like it), that civilian med would start to approach the same "broken med" that milmed has. But thank God that it is not that way.

 

[Ex-44E3A]

If you've already made up your mind and are looking for validation of that decision, you may be waiting a while.

Some of the recruiters may throw you some props...

 

[Mirror Form]

Although I've turned into one of the negative posters on here, I do know a decent number of happy military physicians who are staying in the military past their commitment. That said, many career docs who were previously happy have become unhappy since OIF turned into a quagmire. Basically, things just seem to keep getting worse, and the percentage of happy military docs to unhappy ones seems to just keep getting smaller and smaller.

 

[alpha62]

Of course, I've met dozens of milmed M.D.s that were happy in the service....
then I met their wives and the posse of dirty faced kids trailing behind.

the wife often weighed in at 200 lbs and the kids were already smoking pot (those great dod schools !) by age 14.

For these poor bastards, deployment is a solution, not a nightmare.

Ah, to be on the other side of the world, away from the maddening crowd, with a tent full of willing and supple 18 y/o female medics working on their borderline personalities, willing to do things in a portajohn their wives would otherwise be calling Oprah to complain about.

 

[runningmom]

Of course, I've met dozens of milmed M.D.s that were happy in the service....
then I met their wives and the posse of dirty faced kids trailing behind.

the wife often weighed in at 200 lbs and the kids were already smoking pot (those great dod schools !) by age 14.

For these poor bastards, deployment is a solution, not a nightmare.

Ah, to be on the other side of the world, away from the maddening crowd, with a tent full of willing and supple 18 y/o female medics working on their borderline personalities, willing to do things in a portajohn their wives would otherwise be calling Oprah to complain about.

Watch that roller brush you are working with my friend.... I would argue (anecdotally of course) that the DoD schools are often better than what is out in the civilian population....

To the OP: They exist... I know a few of them, though the most satisfied ones are USUHS grads from my limited experience - maybe because USUHS grads know they are going to be in for essentially a military medical career? A different mindset perhaps? I don't know.

I won't pretend to be an expert... I'm just a lowly not-quite-a-med-student with 5 yrs as a military spouse (not 200# though) and 9 yrs as a mil officer. Know what you are getting into, make the best decision for you and live your life. Ex-44 has a point... if you've already made your decision, you aren't going to get alot of validation on this forum. Good luck...

 

[The White Coat Investor]

I know a few that are happy and plan to make a career out of it. About 5 actually, but wouldn't count myself among their numbers.

 

[alpha62]

If you really want to super-size your misery; marry another active duty officer.

Have a couple of kids and then spend all that retirement money you think you're getting over on paying co-pays and out of pocket for the kids drug rehab,psychotherapy, and lawyers.

The family court judge won't be patting you both on the back, thanking you for your service, but you do get to live with your ego for the rest of your life.

 

[Gastrapathy]

If you really want to super-size your misery; marry another active duty officer.

Have a couple of kids and then spend all that retirement money you think you're getting over on paying co-pays and out of pocket for the kids drug rehab,psychotherapy, and lawyers.

The family court judge won't be patting you both on the back, thanking you for your service, but you do get to live with your ego for the rest of your life.

Come on now. A little histrionic PD working here?

For the OP, military medicine has done pretty well by me so most of my angst comes from seeing whats happened to other folks. I guess that would put me in the "happy with my own experience but waiting for the other shoe to drop category."

 

[feenix]

Thank you again for everyone taking the time to respond.

I truly have not made up my mind. I think if I did, I would not be on this forum.

I am just sincerely curious as to finding out who out there has not regretted their decision. It is sad to know that so many are unhappy.

My hypothesis:
I think there are two ways to look at this whole situation.

1) You are a doctor in the military, and so life after all that studying and then having little to no control sucks, not to mention a flawed system.

or

2) You are an officer in the military whose job happens to be as a doctor

I wonder if most of the unhappy people fall into category 1.

Again, I have not made up my mind one way or another, I just want to hear about people's happier experiences because I have read plenty of unhappy ones, and I get it!

On a side note Alpha: I think that is wrong and unfair to say MilMed kids are pot smoking, dirty faced, uneducated people. I went to a very affleuent school in the suburbs of New York City and I can tell you amoung the CEO's kids, Lawyers, Doctors, accountants, school teachers etc... you would have been hard pressed to find a kid who was not a pot smoking, binge drinking kid taking school for granted while on Zoloft, whose parents were not alcoholics and having affairs and they had/have all the money and freedom in the world.
I think that was a cheap shot and unnecessary.

 

[alpha62]

yeah, but we're supposed to be better than your avg civilian puke, at least that was the dribble they kept trying to feed me when I was in. If you you go in, they'll give you a dog tag with all that crap stamped on it to help you remember it. They call " Army Values " You screw up and you'll be held to a higher level of accountablity than a teacher, lawyer, or accountant.

You probably should come on in. You got all the denial and rationalizing ability of a 4 star general already in place. You sound exactly what they're looking for

Thank you again for everyone taking the time to respond.

I truly have not made up my mind. I think if I did, I would not be on this forum.

I am just sincerely curious as to finding out who out there has not regretted their decision. It is sad to know that so many are unhappy.

My hypothesis:
I think there are two ways to look at this whole situation.

1) You are a doctor in the military, and so life after all that studying and then having little to no control sucks, not to mention a flawed system.

or

2) You are an officer in the military whose job happens to be as a doctor

I wonder if most of the unhappy people fall into category 1.

Again, I have not made up my mind one way or another, I just want to hear about people's happier experiences because I have read plenty of unhappy ones, and I get it!

On a side note Alpha: I think that is wrong and unfair to say MilMed kids are pot smoking, dirty faced, uneducated people. I went to a very affleuent school in the suburbs of New York City and I can tell you amoung the CEO's kids, Lawyers, Doctors, accountants, school teachers etc... you would have been hard pressed to find a kid who was not a pot smoking, binge drinking kid taking school for granted while on Zoloft, whose parents were not alcoholics and having affairs and they had/have all the money and freedom in the world.
I think that was a cheap shot and unnecessary.

 

[alpha62]

You're on one end of the pipeline, I'm on the other.

It's only histrionic until it happens to you, then it becomes a freaking entitlement.

Come on now. A little histrionic PD working here?

For the OP, military medicine has done pretty well by me so most of my angst comes from seeing whats happened to other folks. I guess that would put me in the "happy with my own experience but waiting for the other shoe to drop category."

 

[runningmom]

You probably should come on in. You got all the denial and rationalizing ability of a 4 star general already in place. You sound exactly what they're looking for

You're right, personal attacks are MUCH more helpful than real discussion or facts.

I would type more, but I need to take my drugged out kids to the park. Then my military spouse will beat me before I sneak out to have an illicit affair with an enlisted man.

Thanks for perpetuating the stereotypes.

 

[alpha62]

You're right, personal attacks are MUCH more helpful than real discussion or facts.

I would type more, but I need to take my drugged out kids to the park. Then my military spouse will beat me before I sneak out to have an illicit affair with an enlisted man.

Thanks for perpetuating the stereotypes.

If you were still on active duty,you'd still be able to take your kids to the park. I hear they're pushing a bill through prohibiting both parents from being deployed at the same time.

I know, more stereotypes and histrionics, unless you're the poor smuck that gets extended so you can stay home with the kids and still play army.

 

[feenix]

Alpha62:

You have made your point, I think we all know how unhappy you are and how you feel about being in the military.

This thread was created in hopes of hearing from people with a different point of view, and I do not want them (if they are out there) to feel hesitant from writing positive thoughts in fear of getting slammed by you or others.

I do not know how to make it any more clear, I am not in denial, I am just trying to hear from both sides of the spectrum. Military is a way of avoiding being in debt a quarter of a million dollars, a thought that make some people uncomfortable, and yes I understand that you can pay it back with ease once you are done with residency in the civilian sector, but again I am just trying to hear other points of view.

My major hesitation about joining is, I would like to be a surgeon, and I fear the case load in the military will be lacking and when it is time for me to leave I will have a harder time getting a civilian hospital job.

Let's please not make enemies on here, or hurt people's feelings, there is no need, when all we are trying to do is get help or learn more.

Thank you.

 

[alpha62]

Positive thoughts, telling people what they want to hear is what got us into the mess we're in now.

Perhaps it's time to start applying a little more critical thinking into the mix. If you are actually still of a mindset this thing is a viable career path, you are still living in your father's army.

This thing is going to get much, much worse before it gets better. The golden cold-war era is over. this thing is going to grind on, and on. Education won't have a damn thing to do with it after a while. Just surviving, counting your days will be it. The high point of your day will soon be putting an " x " on your short timer calandar.

for what it's worth, I understand how you feel. I was hell bent to go in too and wouldn't listen to anybody then either.

Youth.

 

[feenix]

thank you, that was more constructive criticism, and I appreciate it.

Are you Army, AF or Navy? and Do you feel that the walter reed conditions that came to light will have any positive effect?

 

[cyclegirl]

I grew up in the military and even went to a DOD middle school. What those other guys are saying about military kids, at least with my experience is not true. Of course there is the population of kids that are going to go down the wrong path but the percentage of them is no more than the civ population.

 

[mitchconnie]

I don’t think it’s very useful to simply take a poll of how many people are “happy” in military medicine. Let me suggest that it’s more profitable to determine what type person is most likely to have a good experience. I’m not one of the “happy” people, but here are some types of people who might be inclined to be more satisfied.

1. Those who want to do administration and not patient care
2. People with prior service who will get to 20 years with only a 4-year HPSP payback
3. Sub-specialists who don’t want to work too hard, take care of many sick people, or do any big cases
4. Personality types who enjoy bureaucratic infighting and wielding power based on rank
5. Hyper patriotic types who just plain bleed red, white and blue
6. Those who do not have the clinical skills and/or work ethic to make it in civilian practice


Others may feel free to add more. Prospective students just need to figure out if they fit into any one of the above categories. Hard-charging, no-nonsense clinically-oriented folks who want to be busy doing cutting-edge care are most likely to be pissed off. Prospective students just need to figure out if they fit into any one of the above categories.

 

[NavyFP]

Well, I will say that I am one of the relatively happy docs. No, milmed is far from perfect, but I have been on active duty for 13 years now and do not plan to leave anytime soon. There have been both good times and bad, but I have no regrets. I still feel there are plenty of opportunities in military medicine but it does require some personal flexibility.

Is it for everyone. No. But if you have a desire to serve, it can provide a lifetime of stories.

 

[Galo]

Alpha62:


I do not know how to make it any more clear, I am not in denial, I am just trying to hear from both sides of the spectrum. Military is a way of avoiding being in debt a quarter of a million dollars, a thought that make some people uncomfortable, and yes I understand that you can pay it back with ease once you are done with residency in the civilian sector, but again I am just trying to hear other points of view.

My major hesitation about joining is, I would like to be a surgeon, and I fear the case load in the military will be lacking and when it is time for me to leave I will have a harder time getting a civilian hospital job.

Let's please not make enemies on here, or hurt people's feelings, there is no need, when all we are trying to do is get help or learn more.

Thank you.

I think this has been answered for you many times in this thread, but I have to say, it does look like you are begging to hear something good to validate you going in. You're not going to find it here. You seem to be on the right track as to the reasons you should no join. Especially if you want to be a surgeon, and then further subspecialize, you are in for a world of dissapointment. If you truly want to be an officer, and take the attributes of that, and the *****s who will outrank you, over the ethics and duty of being a physician, and having patient care as your first priority, then you may do OK. However, you have been warned by me and many others, military medicine is not for those doctors who want to be doctors first, and officers second. You will end up bitter, angry, dissapointed, and likely posting much like we do now. Besides the pro/con threads, there are many others you should look at. The GME one on the stickies is very important, and though AF specific, applies to all services, and in the Navy, you will likely end up doing a GMO tour which will extend your commitment, and put you behind your peers in training, and earning potential when you leave with much dissatisfaction. As always, I'd advise you to call up all the Active duty bases you find, and call the surgical clinic, talk to current AD surgeons, and see what they tell you. But you got to stop beating a dead horse here. Not one of the so called "happy" docs is going to be a surgeon. If they are and they say that, they are not worth a half of Frank Burns.

 

[FizbanZymogen]

I think many bitter comments on these forums come from AF and Navy docs who did HPSP and didn't really know much about the military to begin with (although there are some negative Army guys on here too). They were looking for someone to pay for school and probably didn't research the Military as thoroughly as they should have. Their transistion from civ to military was probably rough. If you want to see some people genuinely enthused I can put you in touch with a few doc friends at Madigan who are genuinely pleased with their careers and stayed in long after their required time. It seems the USUHS students like runningmom mentioned are more positive and and have a better idea of what they are getting into (and if they don't they're in for a fun ride). You must also remember these boards are a place for most people to vent and discuss issues. I remember the first time I jumped into the Apple computer forums and read page after page of negative comments. I bought an Apple 5 years ago and its been the best computer I have ever owned. Now I buy a new Apple every year and couldn't be more pleased. Read what people have to say, do some serious research and then make a choice (but be prepared to live with it). If the Military lifestyle turns you off in any degree please stay out. You'll be happier and those of us going in who want to make the most of it don't want to work with people like that anyway. OP, posting on these boards is a start but you really need to get in touch with docs in the service in various fields and positions, listen to what they say and find out what YOU want in life. Good luck.

 

[BomberDoc]

I was happy as a clam during med school when all of my classmates were sweating another year's worth of loans and fighting for scholarship dough. I stopped being happy my senior year when the military GME match gave me civilian deferred internship. I sucked it up and did internship then started my tour as a GMO flight surgeon. The liars in the GME office assured me I'd get my residency after a 2 year GMO tour. I foolishly held onto hope and applied again for residency 2 years later. Once again, I was rejected and had no option but to continue as a GMO. I applied a third time after another year, only to find out that my chosen specialty had been reduced by 10 slots that year in the AF. I called the lying GME folks again and was told that coming from an operational tour would give me an advantage. Once again, I did not get selected for a military residency because operational docs are more valuable than specialists that don't deploy as often. I thought perhaps I'm just too dumb to get a competitive specialty, but I matched in my first choice of civilian residencies this year. My entire military career (4 painful years) will be spent as a knucklehead GMO where my skills and knowledge deteriorate every single day. The debt isn't a big deal. I only wish I had seen this site before signing on the dotted line. Feenix, you have the opportunity to learn from the mistakes of others instead of making the same mistake yourself. This is the definition of wisdom. Are you making a wise choice?

 

[Ex-44E3A]

I think many bitter comments on these forums come from AF and Navy docs who did HPSP and didn't really know much about the military to begin with

You'd be wrong about that. In my case, I'm a mil-brat, and my family is neck-deep in AD military members, from all branches of service. I knew what I was getting myself into in terms of military life, but the reality of medicine in the military was NOT something I anticipated.

You do have a point about expectations and culture shock, however... I believe that those who adapt to military medicine best are prior service... and there's a reason why those folks seem to be happier. Their prior service allows them to anticipate the absolutely maddening bureaucracy, and "do it just because I said so" check-box fillers who populate the chain of command. Those people are absolute crazy-makers to high-drive, civilian-trained newbie docs.

I also think it's harder if you do a civilian residency... you're unprepared for the sand-in-the-gears obstructionism you often encounter attempting to get patients cared for in the military system.

For his own sake, I hope the OP reads through this board thoroughly.

If the Military lifestyle turns you off in any degree please stay out.

That seems to be a common sentiment here among the prior-service and USUHS studs. Incidently, I don't blame guys like Fizban for not wanting angry, negative, iconoclastic, or oppositional people working alongside them... it can be corrosive to morale, and often highlights problems that others had persuaded themselves weren't such a big deal. It's fine to have gung-ho buddies, but that attitude runs the risk of creating a hospital full of medical corps Stepford Wives who may be overly compliant and eager to please the chain of command. The latter probably isn't the best thing for patients.

As we used to say when I was on active duty (amongst ourselves, of course): "if you're not pissing somebody off, you're probably not doing anything worthwhile."

In that same vein, you can tell a lot about a person by looking at his enemies. I'd be happy to work alongside a pot-stirring, feisty, combative colleague if he/she was pissing off all the right people... every organization needs those types, whether they realize it or not. The military, unfortunately, has a tendency to step down hard on such people, often without evaluating whether their underlying point has merit.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

I think many bitter comments on these forums come from AF and Navy docs who did HPSP and didn't really know much about the military to begin with..... If the Military lifestyle turns you off in any degree please stay out. .

That's quality advice.

 

[g293]

I think many bitter comments on these forums come from AF and Navy docs who did HPSP and didn't really know much about the military to begin with (although there are some negative Army guys on here too). They were looking for someone to pay for school and probably didn't research the Military as thoroughly as they should have. Their transistion from civ to military was probably rough. If you want to see some people genuinely enthused I can put you in touch with a few doc friends at Madigan who are genuinely pleased with their careers and stayed in long after their required time. It seems the USUHS students like runningmom mentioned are more positive and and have a better idea of what they are getting into (and if they don't they're in for a fun ride). You must also remember these boards are a place for most people to vent and discuss issues. I remember the first time I jumped into the Apple computer forums and read page after page of negative comments. I bought an Apple 5 years ago and its been the best computer I have ever owned. Now I buy a new Apple every year and couldn't be more pleased. Read what people have to say, do some serious research and then make a choice (but be prepared to live with it). If the Military lifestyle turns you off in any degree please stay out. You'll be happier and those of us going in who want to make the most of it don't want to work with people like that anyway. OP, posting on these boards is a start but you really need to get in touch with docs in the service in various fields and positions, listen to what they say and find out what YOU want in life. Good luck.

One of the problems on researching milmed is that you are potentially researching something that you will not see for years. I signed my HPSP contract in 1996 and came on active duty in 2005. In '96 there were no deployments to speak of, milmed was flush with big medical centers with lots of support for surgeons to do big cases. Fast forward to now, you can expect several deployments during your initial payback period and at least in the AF the medical system has been downsized to where we don't have the ICU's or staff to do major cases even if you can dig one up. My surgical skills are slowly drying up as I see tons of young healthy people in clinic and send all my major cases away because I don't have an ICU, a real blood bank, etc.

USUHS grads may be more likely to stay (and therefore "happier") since they generally do active duty residencies. If I did a 6 year active duty residency, I would certainly look harder at staying in. I did a civilian deferred residency which doesn't count towards retirement. I also have experience on how a civilian hospital works and how doctors are valued because they bring patients to the hospital. In the military we are not valued as much because we have to be here-we can't take our patients somewhere else where we get better support, etc. Capitalism doesn't exist in milmed.

If you are seriously considering surgery, I would strongly recommend you suck up the loans and the look at FAP once you are near completing residency. That way you are in the specialy of your choice and you hold all the cards. Additionally, you can then do some research on what milmed is like then rather than 4-10 years in the future. You are a valuable asset as a physician-people will pay you and you will recover from the debt you incurred to get your education. Stay in control of your life and your decisions for as long as you can. The military will take you no questions asked at any time, why do it early???

 

[FizbanZymogen]

Everyone has brought up some really good points. Listen to these guys/gals. Also, Ex-44E3A I agree strongly with your last comment in which you stated that it can be a positive thing to not accept the status-quo. I highly agree with this as my Father who served as an F-15 pilot in the Air Force and retired after putting in more than 20 years was known to stir the pot a bit. If he saw something he felt was damaging or just plain wrong he made it known but he was also a master of tact and did it in a way which kept him out of the hot seat while clearly letting people know what he thought. It never stopped him from reaching full bird. There are definitley people that need to be "pissed on" so to speak if for no other reason than to wake them up (or make them mad).

 

[Ex-44E3A]

I highly agree with this as my Father who served as an F-15 pilot in the Air Force and retired after putting in more than 20 years was known to stir the pot a bit. If he saw something he felt was damaging or just plain wrong he made it known but he was also a master of tact and did it in a way which kept him out of the hot seat while clearly letting people know what he thought. It never stopped him from reaching full bird.

Good for him... but your old man was in a line unit, where the game is a little different.

Every time I supported actual tip-of-the-spear units (particularly operators), I was amazed at the difference in mentality. Compared to your average medical group, they were far more flexible, and very mission-oriented. They also had an intense dislike of bureaucratic crap. The medical corps could learn a lot from that mindset.

 

[finnyel]

Hi Feenix
I've been haunting this site for a bit -mainly for the scoop on residencies. If you are thinking about joining don't read here, I would go talk to actual doctors in the military if you can. I did and found a much happier lot than voice here. There is something about this forum that attracts the truely loud and unhappy... nasty too. If you read through some of the residency reports you'll find that although they are not on point to your question, they more accurately report lifestyle and attitude.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

I would go talk to actual doctors in the military if you can. I did and found....

Yes, go find some ACTUAL doctors in the MILITARY. You probably won't find any of those here.

 

[colbgw02]

Yes, go find some ACTUAL doctors in the MILITARY. You probably won't find any of those here.

Beat me to it.

 

[Gastrapathy]

Hi Feenix
I've been haunting this site for a bit -mainly for the scoop on residencies. If you are thinking about joining don't read here, I would go talk to actual doctors in the military if you can. I did and found a much happier lot than voice here. There is something about this forum that attracts the truely loud and unhappy... nasty too. If you read through some of the residency reports you'll find that although they are not on point to your question, they more accurately report lifestyle and attitude.

OK, so this isn't bad advice on the surface (yeesh y'all). I think people come across a little more negative here than the average military doc BUT only a little.

When you go talk to these AD physicians be sure you are talking to staff who are approaching the end of their first obligation. If you talk to residents, they really do lack perspective to some degree and if you talk to staff who are already in for the long-haul, you'll get only those people who decided to stay. So...talk to staff physicians who are 3-4 years out of residency and see what they have to say. You'll find that nearly all are getting out. Should you really committ 8+ years of your life to an organization that nearly everyone leaves as soon as they are able?

 

[Sgt Whizzo]

Hi Feenix
I've been haunting this site for a bit -mainly for the scoop on residencies. If you are thinking about joining don't read here, I would go talk to actual doctors in the military if you can. I did and found a much happier lot than voice here. There is something about this forum that attracts the truely loud and unhappy... nasty too. If you read through some of the residency reports you'll find that although they are not on point to your question, they more accurately report lifestyle and attitude.

Dear Posters,
I think that Finnyel has some truly inspirational insight into the comments (and souls of the writers) that are posted here. I, for one, am going to take some time to meditate and contemplate how I can be an "actual doctor" in the military and whether there is anything that can be redeemed from my substandard lifestyle and attitude. I have not had such insightful guidance since being told by a nurse corpse colonel that the buttons on my coat were "askew" and that this reflected badly upon my character.
Seriously dude, I don't know who you are talking to but there is some very solid information in this forum. Happiness is a complex concept...most of us find ways to be happy regardless of the challenges of our job. Just be forewarned that it is highly likely in the current mil med environment that you will be put in "no win" situations with people above you who want metrics to make themselves look good. The metrics take priority over quality and many of the aspects of doctoring that drew most of us to medicine. You will have bosses that are not competent and some who have a strangely strong attraction to the power associated with military heirarchy. Problem is that the system makes it very difficult to bring about changes from the position of the military doc and you can't move to a different practice until your committment comes up or you get orders elsewhere. Be wary of talking to people who have not really been "in the trenches". I imagine mil med is a pretty good gig for some docs on faculty at USUHS and some subspecialists, and some who failed in civilian medicine, and a few souls who truly are called and making a positive difference. Sarcasm is a form of coping...don't discount what you are hearing on this forum. Part of the reason the voices are strong and somewhat cynical is that most of the posters have not felt their voices were heard or appreciated in their work environments. Med students and potential med students have a rare opportunity through this forum to hear from docs who will tell it like it is. Try not to take the sarcasm personally...just think twice before slamming the credibility of the posters-especially if you have not been there yourself.

 

[Trajan]

One additional type of person is frequently happy with Navy medicine:

HPSP'er with no desire for a career in the military who completes a medicine internship or especially a transitional year, 6 months in FS or UMO school, 3.5 years as an FS or UMO, gets out, and then a civilian residency in a field that requires broad knowledge and only three years of training (e.g. FP, and especially EM).

Anecdotally, the EM residents and attendings at my medical school who did this very path in the Navy were all regarded as stars, and all felt that they were better doctors thanks to their military experience. One attending chose to remain in the reserves and willingly did two tours in Iraq with the Marines.

This is an attractive option, especially to those interested in nonsurgical fields with shorter residencies, and is one that I may or may not take. However, I recognize that if everyone did this military medicine would have even more problems.

 

[Gastrapathy]

One additional type of person is frequently happy with Navy medicine:

HPSP'er with no desire for a career in the military who completes a medicine internship or especially a transitional year, 6 months in FS or UMO school, 3.5 years as an FS or UMO, gets out, and then a civilian residency in a field that requires broad knowledge and only three years of training (e.g. FP, and especially EM).

Anecdotally, the EM residents and attendings at my medical school who did this very path in the Navy were all regarded as stars, and all felt that they were better doctors thanks to their military experience. One attending chose to remain in the reserves and willingly did two tours in Iraq with the Marines.

This is an attractive option, especially to those interested in nonsurgical fields with shorter residencies, and is one that I may or may not take. However, I recognize that if everyone did this military medicine would have even more problems.

Just don't choose a program that requires a different categorical internship or you'll find that programs can't afford to take you because medicare won't pay for your pgy1 year a second time.

 

[DiveMD]

The only happy AD military docs that I know are those with approved "RAD" (Release from Active Duty) letters in their hands.

 

[Ex-44E3A]

If you are thinking about joining don't read here, I would go talk to actual doctors in the military if you can. I did and found a much happier lot than voice here. There is something about this forum that attracts the truely loud and unhappy... nasty too.

Nasty? You get what you give. Most of us get irked when we're airily dismissed as bitter losers by somebody who hasn't BTDT.

I'd encourage the OP to talk to active duty docs. I wouldn't dare attempt to deprive him of as many perspectives as possible. I don't expect him to believe me or take what I say as gospel... go forth and verify, young man.

But be aware of who you're talking to. If it's a command-level guy who's sitting at the top of the heap (and doesn't see patients anymore), expect a rosier picture than that of a pit doc. If it's a newbie or resident, the bloom may not have come off the rose yet... weight their opinion appropriately.

Best stragegy? Talk to the short-timers... the guys who are on their way out the door. Those are the people who will give you the most unvarnished, warts-and-all skinny on military medicine. They're not trying to rope in a colleague to share their misery, they're not trying to gain rank, they have no fear of official retribution for speaking their mind, and they've already gone through the mental risk/benefit calculation for staying versus going.

Those are the guys you want to query. Buy them a couple of beers and get out your notepad.

 

[Homunculus]

Nasty? You get what you give. Most of us get irked when we're airily dismissed as bitter losers by somebody who hasn't BTDT.

I'd encourage the OP to talk to active duty docs. I wouldn't dare attempt to deprive him of as many perspectives as possible. I don't expect him to believe me or take what I say as gospel... go forth and verify, young man.

But be aware of who you're talking to. If it's a command-level guy who's sitting at the top of the heap (and doesn't see patients anymore), expect a rosier picture than that of a pit doc. If it's a newbie or resident, the bloom may not have come off the rose yet... weight their opinion appropriately.

Best stragegy? Talk to the short-timers... the guys who are on their way out the door. Those are the people who will give you the most unvarnished, warts-and-all skinny on military medicine. They're not trying to rope in a colleague to share their misery, they're not trying to gain rank, they have no fear of official retribution for speaking their mind, and they've already gone through the mental risk/benefit calculation for staying versus going.

Those are the guys you want to query. Buy them a couple of beers and get out your notepad.

i agree. talk to as many people in as many situations as possible, and try to figure out who you'll be.

there's an experience gap between the long-timers and the short or new-timers, and it's more than clinical experience. for example, the program directors and homesteaders of the world who have made themselves nice situations are going to be happy-- they had the luxury of a low op-tempo army to create their niche. they'll likely stay to retirement. compare that to the 3 or 4 year HPSP grad who will most likely graduate, deploy, come back, serve a year, then get out as soon as they can. those are the two main groups i see now. i, unfortunately, fall into the category of the HPSP + extra folks-- people who owe 7-12 (USUHS or HPSP or either of those + academy/ROTC-- i'm an ROTC + HPSP person myself). there's two ways to look at this-- one, it will suck because we'll be the senior leadership in a broken system full of people jumping off the ship (peds retention rates are honestly approx zero-- i think one gen peds who completed their ADSO stayed in last year), or two, it'll be good because simply being around, in the army, and alive will be enough for promotion since, well, we're the only MAJ or LtCOL's around, lol.

as i approach my upcoming MEDDAC duty station, things are going to be interesting. i'll keep y'all apprised of the experience of leaving the comfortable bosom of academia for the cold harsh world of "real medicine"

 

[feenix]

I want to truly thank everyone for their input. I am also gald that towards the latter half of this thread there have been less personal attacks and more honest opinions (whether positive or negative)

I have tried taking some of your advise already, I called one of the Navy Hospitals and asked to speak to someone who might be able to talk with me about what I am considering. They said, I needed to have someone specific in mind, or go through a recruiter close to the hospital to set something up, which seems to me to be counter productive.

Can anyone suggest who it is I would ask for at a hospital, or how I can go about speaking to an active doc who is close to leaving as someone suggested? Do I just cold call surgeons on the floor?

 

[NavyFP]

I want to truly thank everyone for their input. I am also gald that towards the latter half of this thread there have been less personal attacks and more honest opinions (whether positive or negative)

I have tried taking some of your advise already, I called one of the Navy Hospitals and asked to speak to someone who might be able to talk with me about what I am considering. They said, I needed to have someone specific in mind, or go through a recruiter close to the hospital to set something up, which seems to me to be counter productive.

Can anyone suggest who it is I would ask for at a hospital, or how I can go about speaking to an active doc who is close to leaving as someone suggested? Do I just cold call surgeons on the floor?

The easiest way would be to call and ask for the General Surgery Department. Then ask for the Department Head. Once you explain who you are and what you are looking for that person should be able to put you in touch with one of the surgeons.

 

[Sara010]

Hello!
I'd like to throw in my 2 cents...

My parents are both Army military docs, my dad retired a few years ago because he had to (accumulated 34 years of service, retired as a COL) as an infectious disease doctor. My mother did 11 years (paying off HPSP) then went into private practice and did that for several years as we followed my dad to Thailand (he headed the AIDS vaccine program there) then when we came back to the States she went back in to get to the *magical* 20. She is an internal medicine doctor (read: one of the lowest in the food chain). They have both loved their experiences and would do it over again.

When I thought about my own application both of my parents warned me that things had changed a lot since they applied to HPSP and encouraged me to investigate on my own. So I did. I went to Walter Reed and started talking to my mom's officemate then she directed me on to another person and so on....

I came to the decision that there are a lot of things wrong with milmed, but that other pros (service to country, patient population, worldly experience, a more cooperative spirit amongst colleagues, etc) were worth the headache.

So all in all I will never say I am an expert in the military life; but at the same time I have some sort of idea of what its like (grown up in it all my life). But it's for me, it just seems like the right fit and if it's not then oh well, lesson learned I will suck it up and learn from my mistakes and chalk it up to some good stories. Life's too short to complain for too long.

I hope that helps....

 

[sethco]

Since the OP is navy, shouldn't they also be asking GMO/DMO/UMO docs for their experience also, since most navy personnel will be doing these tours for a minimum of 2 years?

Going straight into residency may not be an option

...Imagine how much it would suck to be set to start Surgery residency and then be stuck seeing Colds, Sprain ankles, High Blood Pressure/Cholesterol, and Psych issues for a couple of years

 

[i want out]

Hello!
I'd like to throw in my 2 cents...

My parents are both Army military docs, my dad retired a few years ago because he had to (accumulated 34 years of service, retired as a COL) as an infectious disease doctor. My mother did 11 years (paying off HPSP) then went into private practice and did that for several years as we followed my dad to Thailand (he headed the AIDS vaccine program there) then when we came back to the States she went back in to get to the *magical* 20. She is an internal medicine doctor (read: one of the lowest in the food chain). They have both loved their experiences and would do it over again.

When I thought about my own application both of my parents warned me that things had changed a lot since they applied to HPSP and encouraged me to investigate on my own. So I did. I went to Walter Reed and started talking to my mom's officemate then she directed me on to another person and so on....

I came to the decision that there are a lot of things wrong with milmed, but that other pros (service to country, patient population, worldly experience, a more cooperative spirit amongst colleagues, etc) were worth the headache.

So all in all I will never say I am an expert in the military life; but at the same time I have some sort of idea of what its like (grown up in it all my life). But it's for me, it just seems like the right fit and if it's not then oh well, lesson learned I will suck it up and learn from my mistakes and chalk it up to some good stories. Life's too short to complain for too long.

I hope that helps....

So, let me get this straight, both of your parents were telling you that mil med is in decline, and you need to make your own decision, then you went and asked a bunch of folks what they thought?

Do you think that the Colonel's kid got unadulterated feedback on the true state of milmed?

I am one of the most negative people I know when it comes to milmed, but I am not going to tell some colonel's kid how bad it is unless I know where that colonel's friends plan to send me when I piss them off, or until I have a signed DD214 in hand.

i want out

 

[Sara010]

So, let me get this straight, both of your parents were telling you that mil med is in decline, and you need to make your own decision, then you went and asked a bunch of folks what they thought?

Do you think that the Colonel's kid got unadulterated feedback on the true state of milmed?

I am one of the most negative people I know when it comes to milmed, but I am not going to tell some colonel's kid how bad it is unless I know where that colonel's friends plan to send me when I piss them off, or until I have a signed DD214 in hand.

i want out

Yes I believe I got "unadulterated feedback" due to the fact that not only did I question people in my mother's specialty (my father works at a different base) but people who had no idea who my parents were in other specialties. I should have specified this earlier, you are correct that people do treat you differently if they know (or think) they have something to lose/gain from the interaction. But please do not patronize me, I am only trying to offer what I based my own decisions on. Also, I did not say that it was on a decline, only that it is very different to join now than it was in the late 70's when my parents did (peacetime army vs. wartime army and of course other changes). The fact that my mother decided to go back in is a testament to the fact that it is at least no worse than private practice (albeit internal medicine is also not very respected in the civilian sector either).

 

[Mirror Form]

So, let me get this straight, both of your parents were telling you that mil med is in decline, and you need to make your own decision, then you went and asked a bunch of folks what they thought?

Do you think that the Colonel's kid got unadulterated feedback on the true state of milmed?

I am one of the most negative people I know when it comes to milmed, but I am not going to tell some colonel's kid how bad it is unless I know where that colonel's friends plan to send me when I piss them off, or until I have a signed DD214 in hand.

i want out

Agreed. I would never be as honest as I am here in that situation.

 

[Ex-44E3A]

Agreed. I would never be as honest as I am here in that situation.

Damned straight. I can't think of an organization more infamous for no-toeing-the-company-line retribution than the military... and it doesn't have to be overt. Passive-aggressive, revenge-minded people in the chain above you can truly make you suffer... and they will.

This is why I urge people to talk to the short-timers. They are more likely to be honest, as they have their papers in, and are on their way out the door.

If you want the real naked truth, wait until they're actually separated, with paperwork in hand.

 

[Sara010]

First of all: I had spoken to 4 short-timers (in specialties that were nothing related to my mother's [neurology, opthamology, radiology and general surgery]) all who were getting out 4-5 years after residency. They all didn't regret their decision and had NO idea who I was (I look nothing like my mom and we have a different last name). But of course they were all women and had family reasons for getting out; so perhaps their responses were biased, but I wanted to know how young women feel because I am a woman who wants a family. Oh and before you try and think that my parents are divorced they aren't. They have been happily married for 30 years and have had different last names their whole professional careers because they are both doctors; not that it is any of your business.

Second of all: we all know how some people here feel, but I will not regret my decision whether it turns out worse than I thought or not. I will also not have you cheapen my decision by your bitterness, I made a well informed decision and am prepared for the consequences, positive or negative.


All I wanted to do was give my side of the story and I have; so I will not continue in this banter. Bye.