Actual Match and Attrition Numbers from one of the Big 4

[Guilegamesh]

There is a lot of stuff thrown around on this forum that are often times less than accurate. I am currently a 2nd year at SUSOM and we recently met with our Dean of Clinicals and he discussed match numbers for 2014 with us. Because these numbers came straight from the Dean, I am assuming they're accurate, and if you're concerned about the veracity of these numbers, feel free to check out the match data at saba.edu.

I'll begin with enrollment. Saba has rolling admission 3 times a year, September, January, and May. The September class is generally the largest, with about incoming 100 students. The January and May groups are usually smaller, at around 60-70. This has been consistent the 5 semesters I've been on the island. So on average that means there are 230 students per year that enter the school.

Next, on to the match numbers. Due to how much cheaper Saba is compared to Ross, AUC, and SGU, each class can consist of more than 50% Canadians. So, the dean split up the numbers between Canadian and American students.

American students entering the match in 2014: 40
American students matching in 2014: 40
Match Rate: 100%

Canadian students entering the match in 2014: 98
Canadian students matching in 2014: 92
Match Rate: 93%

Total Match Rate: 96%

Now I can already hear everyone beginning to type how a 96% match rate at a Caribbean school is absurd. I was just as shocked as most of you are how high that number is. Our Dean told us that Saba has the highest match rate out of any Caribbean school, and I am inclined to believe him. He doesn't have to sell Saba to us anymore, we are already half way in, so I can't imagine he would be lying about this.

At first glance those number might seem amazing, everyone that was on the fence about Carib med school is probably filling out their application to Saba right now, but I want to emphasize that those numbers are actually quite alarming. As I mentioned about the average year has around 230 students, and assuming that the school was about as large in 2010 as it is now, lets say 215 yearly students, that means the attrition rate is about 36%. More than one third of students don't make it to the match for whatever reason, dismissal, not being able to pass the NBME exit exam, even visa issues for the non-Americans.

I don't want to put any spin on this, just give everyone a more accurate idea of what they're chances are actually like if they go the Caribbean route. Also remember that the vast majority of those students that matched, matched into primary care residencies, so matching something competitive is exponentially harder than simply just matching. I hope this post helps people make a decision whether or not to go down this road. Lastly, if you have any chance of making it into a US school, MD or DO, you should try and try and try again. Regardless whether or not you can be successful in the Caribbean, doesn't change the fact that the experience, by and large, really sucks.

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[gyngyn]

Verifiable data indicate that 45 US Saba IMG's matched into something other than a surg pre-lim and 33 did not.

http://www.ecfmg.org/resources/NRMP...atch-International-Medical-Graduates-2014.pdf

 

[Guilegamesh]

My understanding is matching according to the ECFMG is matching in your first choice program. The residency placements on the Saba website is much more that 45 (not including the 20-30 Canadian matches).

 

[gyngyn]

My understanding is matching according to the ECFMG is matching in your first choice program. The residency placements on the Saba website is much more that 45 (not including the 20-30 Canadian matches).

Second choice tends to be surg prelim...
The school is not transparent regarding match outcomes, sadly.

 

[Flashyspoons]

I graduated from Saba in May of 2014. I am a U.S. citizen. I applied to the 2014 match through ERAS -I DID NOT MATCH.

Furthermore, I failed to obtain a residency position through SOAP.

However, I sent out close to 100 emails to every program with potential open spots in the country after SOAP closed - phone calls, faxes..hoping someone would decide to not show up..anything.

10ish days after SOAP ended, I found and applied for a preliminary general surgery spot, and they hired me thanks to great board scores and an overwhelming amount of support from my family and mentors.

Best possible outcome. Incredibly tough year, but fantastic experience and clinical exposure to everything I imagined being a doctor was.

Only a few of us (and our family and friends) can understand the stress of opening the "Did I match?" Email for the second time. The 2015 match worked out nicely ugh, but the journey.. Journey was long indeed.

** No need to look deeper into those numbers; if you're questioning their validity or transparency, you already have your answer. You're likely also confident in your ability to successfully navigate said journey - Push through!!

 

[the argus]

Second choice tends to be surg prelim...

I'm pretty confident you have absolutely no factual basis for this statement. If you do, I'd love to see it.

I graduated from Saba in May of 2014. I am a U.S. citizen. I applied to the 2014 match through ERAS -I DID NOT MATCH.

Furthermore, I failed to obtain a residency position through SOAP.

However, I sent out close to 100 emails to every program with potential open spots in the country after SOAP closed - phone calls, faxes..hoping someone would decide to not show up..anything.

10ish days after SOAP ended, I found and applied for a preliminary general surgery spot, and they hired me thanks to great board scores and an overwhelming amount of support from my family and mentors.

Best possible outcome. Incredibly tough year, but fantastic experience and clinical exposure to everything I imagined being a doctor was.

Only a few of us (and our family and friends) can understand the stress of opening the "Did I match?" Email for the second time. The 2015 match worked out nicely ugh, but the journey.. Journey was long indeed.

** No need to look deeper into those numbers; if you're questioning their validity or transparency, you already have your answer. You're likely also confident in your ability to successfully navigate said journey - Push through!!

Posts like this are much more helpful if you include your stats. Specialty you applied to and any back-up specialty, # of applications, USMLE scores and number of attempts, GPA, semester failures, etc.

 

[Goro]

Deans are paid to lie, no matter where their schools are.

Verifiable data indicate that 45 US Saba IMG's matched into something other than a surg pre-lim and 33 did not.

http://www.ecfmg.org/resources/NRMP...atch-International-Medical-Graduates-2014.pdf

 

[gyngyn]

I'm pretty confident you have absolutely no factual basis for this statement. If you do, I'd love to see it.

Surg prelims are what is left over for everyone, for the most part, not just IMG's. I can redact the initial list when I get back to the office, if you like

 

[the argus]

Surg prelims are what is left over for everyone, for the most part, not just IMG's. I can redact the initial list when I get back to the office, if you like

We are not talking about the SOAP here, just the main NRMP. You are completely misinterpreting the data from that report. From the ECFMG document you cited,

"For purposes of this report, match success is defined as a match to the specialty of the applicant’s first-ranked program because that is assumed to be the specialty of choice ... Lack of match success includes matching to another specialty as well as failure to match at all."

For instance, a US-IMG from Saba applies to EM and then also IM as a back-up. They receive 2 EM interviews and 10 IM interviews, rank the EM programs 1 and 2 and then the IM programs 3-12. If they end up in one of those IM programs, they would be considered unmatched in that document.

So when you say, "Verifiable data indicate that 45 US Saba IMG's matched into something other than a surg pre-lim and 33 did not," that is in fact not what the data is saying at all. You are blatantly wrong.

 

[gyngyn]

We are not talking about the SOAP here, just the main NRMP. You are completely misinterpreting the data from that report. From the ECFMG document you cited,

"For purposes of this report, match success is defined as a match to the specialty of the applicant’s first-ranked program because that is assumed to be the specialty of choice ... Lack of match success includes matching to another specialty as well as failure to match at all."

For instance, a US-IMG from Saba applies to EM and then also IM as a back-up. They receive 2 EM interviews and 10 IM interviews, rank the EM programs 1 and 2 and then the IM programs 3-12. If they end up in one of those IM programs, they would be considered unmatched in that document.

So when you say, "Verifiable data indicate that 45 US Saba IMG's matched into something other than a surg pre-lim and 33 did not," that is in fact not what the data is saying at all. You are blatantly wrong.

There are any number of explanations for the data in the NRMP ECFMG. The only things that are are certain are that 45 US IMG's from this school matched into their preferred specialty out of an unknown number of seniors and that at least 33 did not. It has been my experience that a double application is less likely to be done well than a strong primary application with a back up plan. This is true at even the best US schools. Those who do not match into a primary (desired) specialty are much more likely have to match into something nobody wants, even from US schools.

 

[the argus]

There are any number of explanations for the data in the NRMP ECFMG. The only things that are are certain are that 45 US IMG's from this school matched into their preferred specialty out of an unknown number of seniors and that at least 33 did not. It has been my experience that a double application is less likely to be done well than a strong primary application with a back up plan. This is true at even the best US schools. Those who do not match into a primary (desired) specialty are much more likely have to match into something nobody wants, even from US schools.

That's fine, it's also not at all what you wrote before. Again, I'm not against pointing out the negatives and challenges that come along with going to a Caribbean medical school. My issue is when you guys just blatantly misrepresent the data like above. And when called out, you just change the argument, like you have again done in this instance.

And as I have pointed out ad nauseam, the average time since graduation for unmatched US-IMGs in that report is 5.7 years. The way you initially presented the data was as though there were 78 people who graduated from Saba that year and 33 either didn't match or got a surgery prelim, which unsurprisingly, is a major mischaracterization/misinterpretation of what that data actually represents.

 

[gyngyn]

And as I have pointed out ad nauseam, the average time since graduation for unmatched US-IMGs in that report is 5.7 years. The way you initially presented the data was as though there were 78 people who graduated from Saba that year and 33 either didn't match or got a surgery prelim, which unsurprisingly, is a major mischaracterization/misinterpretation of what that data actually represents.

It is, unfortunately the best data we have.
My interpretation is based on experience of what happens to those who do not match, whether from a US school or offshore.

 

[the argus]

It is, unfortunately the best data we have.
My interpretation is based on experience of what happens to those who do not match, whether from a US school or offshore.

Lack of better data is a lame and pathetic excuse for misinterpreting/mischaracterizing the data that is available.

 

[gyngyn]

Lack of better data is a lame and pathetic excuse for misinterpreting/mischaracterizing the data that is available.

I am describing exactly what happens to all applicants who are not successful in their primary specialty. It is based on experience. It is the best we can do when schools are purposefully opaque.

 

[Flashyspoons]

I'm pretty confident you have absolutely no factual basis for this statement. If you do, I'd love to see it.

Posts like this are much more helpful if you include your stats. Specialty you applied to and any back-up specialty, # of applications, USMLE scores and number of attempts, GPA, semester failures, etc.

I applied 110 anesthesia programs in 2014 and went to 11 interviews for anesthesia. I applied to 50 anesthesia programs for 2015 (whilst doing surgery my intern year, used every hour of my vacations for interviews) and went on 22 interviews. I never failed a semester. I never failed a step exam and did well above average on 1&2. Saba put up a red flag on my ERAS application in 2014 close to rank list time - I did not have proper documentation/permission to leave my rotation for interviews and thus was almost put on permanent probation and this destroyed my first shot at matching as a USIMG. Be careful during interviews. Have everything in writing as far as travel and days off.