ADAT or GRE for Orthodontics

[hk64]

Hello there,

I am a graduate of 2017, who had applied to ortho program in 2017, only got two interviews and didnt match. Now I am working as a general dentist, and I would like to reapply for my long desired program again. As you all know, the most important component of successful application would be GPA, and maybe connection? Anyway, I cannot improve those factors such as gpa, research experience, recommendation etc. And, the only thing that I could do better would be ADAT and GRE and perhaps better personal statement. I know not many programs require ADAT but take a look if submitted, and they require GRE but I honestly dont know how having high GRE score would matter much (I already have soso, ok GRe score). I am going to take both exams, but if I would like to focus one more than another, should it be ADAT? Or, do two of those dont matter anyway?

Thanks for your comment.

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[Big Time Hoosier]

Disclaimer: I am not an orthodontist or even an aspiring orthodontist. Though, any ortho program would love to count Big Hoss amongst its residents.

You might get some better guidance/advice if you provided some more details about what you’re bringing to the table. Things that others who are in a better position to help might want to know are: your class rank, research background, community service activities, leadership experiences, how many programs you applied to last year, GRE scores, and who wrote your LORs.

My gut instinct tells me that if your class rank is below ideal, a VERY strong ADAT score might help repair that slightly. It also shows you’re willing to go above and beyond since it’s not even required.

Big Hoss

 

[Warran E. Namel]

For what its worth, I took both and not a single person along the way mentioned either one. Very average on the GRE, like 156/158/4, and crushed the ADAT with a 99th percentile, and still nothin'!

 

[ADATKnockout]

Hello there,

I am a graduate of 2017, who had applied to ortho program in 2017, only got two interviews and didnt match. Now I am working as a general dentist, and I would like to reapply for my long desired program again. As you all know, the most important component of successful application would be GPA, and maybe connection? Anyway, I cannot improve those factors such as gpa, research experience, recommendation etc. And, the only thing that I could do better would be ADAT and GRE and perhaps better personal statement. I know not many programs require ADAT but take a look if submitted, and they require GRE but I honestly dont know how having high GRE score would matter much (I already have soso, ok GRe score). I am going to take both exams, but if I would like to focus one more than another, should it be ADAT? Or, do two of those dont matter anyway?

Thanks for your comment.

I think the influence of taking either exam is highly dependent on the programs you're interested in applying to; so I'd call the programs to see what their stance is on either exam. If they suggest that they consider them in their application process, then any additional positive statistic on your application can only serve to benefit you (vs. no change at all)

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

If they suggest that they consider them in their application process, then any additional positive statistic on your application can only serve to benefit you (vs. no change at all)

But is it worth the cost, both financial and time? You’re going to have to pay almost $400 to take it and spend weeks or months preparing, and there’s no guarantee that you’ll get a stand out score. In fact, you’re more likely to end up with a relatively average score, because that’s just math - stupid bell curves! Even if you did, how much are programs going to care if they won’t even make it a universal requirement? It seems that hardly any specialty is jumping all over the ADAT because it’s kind of a stupid test, literally 160 questions covering all of the basic and dental sciences taught in 4 years of school. How is that a reliable gauge of one’s knowledge?

Granted, I did take it and like Warran E. Namel scored in the 99th percentile. Now, the ONLY reason I took it was because one of my top pedo programs WAS going to start requiring it. They have since changed their minds and made it optional. If it weren’t for this school, I wouldn’t have bothered with the ADAT. I guess it shows how badly I’d like to go there. Will my score help my upcoming application? Sure, but it wasn’t worth it in my opinion.

Big Hoss

 

[Daniel Schruth]

May I ask how many programs you applied to?


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[hk64]

Hello again,

I am surprised to hear that even if you got 99 percentile in ADAT, no one mentioned about it.. It makes me wonder if it is worth studying for two to three month to study for it. (And, I heard once score appears they will know my score automatically? so just in case I do poorly, it can also hurt?)

I have applied about 15 programs last year. I suddenly decided to apply then, so it was near the deadline for most programs, and my personal statement has not been edited much. I got my recommendation from my ethics processor, ortho faculty (we do invisalign), and orofacial pain director (I was the honors student) as well as the director of school of dentistry.

I have some research experience. I included all those that I did during 3 undergraduate years (published once) and one ortho research that I did for one and half year during dental school.

My class rank is between 15%-20%.

Of course, this time, I will refine my personal statement better. Maybe add another letter of recommendation from my current clinical director, apply early and more schools, but again, I would like to find some way to increase my chance.

As ADAT knockout guy left the comment above, it wouldn't hurt if I get a good score. But, I am wondering if it will really help when I get good score.

By the way. my GRE score is like 155/166/4 verbal, math, writing. I am not sure if I need to retake to improve verbal score.
If possible, I would like to focus one, since it is hard to prepare both exams within two to three months.

Thank you for your comments, guys.

 

[Daniel Schruth]

Hello again,

I am surprised to hear that even if you got 99 percentile in ADAT, no one mentioned about it.. It makes me wonder if it is worth studying for two to three month to study for it. (And, I heard once score appears they will know my score automatically? so just in case I do poorly, it can also hurt?)

I have applied about 15 programs last year. I suddenly decided to apply then, so it was near the deadline for most programs, and my personal statement has not been edited much. I got my recommendation from my ethics processor, ortho faculty (we do invisalign), and orofacial pain director (I was the honors student) as well as the director of school of dentistry.

I have some research experience. I included all those that I did during 3 undergraduate years (published once) and one ortho research that I did for one and half year during dental school.

My class rank is between 15%-20%.

Of course, this time, I will refine my personal statement better. Maybe add another letter of recommendation from my current clinical director, apply early and more schools, but again, I would like to find some way to increase my chance.

As ADAT knockout guy left the comment above, it wouldn't hurt if I get a good score. But, I am wondering if it will really help when I get good score.

By the way. my GRE score is like 155/166/4 verbal, math, writing. I am not sure if I need to retake to improve verbal score.
If possible, I would like to focus one, since it is hard to prepare both exams within two to three months.

Thank you for your comments, guys.

I think there are a few big things you could do to achieve your goal.

1. Apply to way more programs. I know some MD friends that applied to over 40 programs to get in to highly competitive specialties. The opportunity cost is potentially much greater than the application fees.

2. Objectively prepare for your interviews. The interview is so overlooked. Students spend ungodly amounts of time studying for exams and don’t practice their interviews. It’s kind of mind blowing. Hire an interview consultant and get feedback and try to improve. This is cheap and it could be high yield for improving your chances. Smile when you walk in the door, remember people’s names, send thank-you’s, etc., etc.

3. Other stuff counts. Have a respective faculty member make a call for you, send a portfolio of your work, the list goes on....


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[ADATKnockout]

Hello again,

I am surprised to hear that even if you got 99 percentile in ADAT, no one mentioned about it.. It makes me wonder if it is worth studying for two to three month to study for it. (And, I heard once score appears they will know my score automatically? so just in case I do poorly, it can also hurt?)

As of 2018, as long as you do not select any advanced dental education programs when applying for the ADAT, your scores will not be included in your application. In order for programs to receive your score, you must select at least one advanced dental education program as a results recipient to have your scores sent to ADEA PASS. If you are satisfied with your score after you take the ADAT but did not initially select any programs, you can always make a request to have the score sent out to the graduate programs of your choice after your exam attempt.

In regards to Warran E. Namel's situation, I think the influence of any score depends on the programs you're applying to. If those programs are considering the ADAT at all, a 99th percentile will most definitely be noticed, even if its not mentioned during an interview. However, no single attribute will fill any outstanding deficits and guarantee you a seat somewhere, so its all a cumulative process. At the end of the day, you want to make sure that they'll see noticeable differences that make your application stand out from the majority when sizing you and every applicant up. Daniel Schruth gave great advice on other facets of an app that help with that as well!

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

you can always make a request to have the score sent out to the graduate programs of your choice after your exam attempt

For a fee, of course.

The way I see it, and I wager the way most program directors would see it, is as follows: The OP has a class rank between the top 15-20%. That means I expect them to score at that same percentile on the ADAT. If they are above, great for them. If they are within or near that range, there's no benefit because they performed exactly as I would expect. If they score below, it actually would look bad to me. The risk/benefit ratio is entirely different for someone with a rank near 40%. That person would have a whole lot more to gain and less to lose, and it will be much more mathematically and practically feasible for a person with a 40% class rank to score in the top 25th percentile on the ADAT than for the OP to score in the top 5+% on the ADAT.

The OP would in my opinion be better off using the money they would have spent on the ADAT to apply to more ortho programs. Unless they are absolutely gunning for a school that requires it or will require it, I personally wouldn't bother. Again, this is the only reason I took the exam myself.

Disclaimer: I have no financial interest in offering my advice, unlike @ADATKnockout.

Big Hoss

 

[ADATKnockout]

For a fee, of course.

The way I see it, and I wager the way most program directors would see it, is as follows: The OP has a class rank between the top 15-20%. That means I expect them to score at that same percentile on the ADAT. If they are above, great for them. If they are within or near that range, there's no benefit because they performed exactly as I would expect. If they score below, it actually would look bad to me. The risk/benefit ratio is entirely different for someone with a rank near 40%. That person would have a whole lot more to gain and less to lose, and it will be much more mathematically and practically feasible for a person with a 40% class rank to score in the 25th percentile on the ADAT than for the OP to score in the top 5+% on the ADAT.

The OP would in my opinion be better off using the money they would have spent on the ADAT to apply to more ortho programs. Unless they are absolutely gunning for a school that requires it or will require it, I personally wouldn't bother. Again, this is the only reason I took the exam myself.

Disclaimer: I have no financial interest in offering my advice, unlike @ADATKnockout.

Big Hoss

We're giving our honest feedback from what we understand about the ADAT and from the knowledge we've received from students/dentists who have taken the ADAT. We have dedicated much of our time to the success of students/dentists pursuing speciality programs and that is, and will always remain, our only motive for providing guidance on these forums.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

I am surprised to hear that even if you got 99 percentile in ADAT, no one mentioned about it..

Probably because Warren E. Namel claims to be ranked #1 in their class, and an ADAT score in the 99th percentile is what you'd expect from such a stellar applicant.

Anyone interested in doing this stats thing from the past few years? I guess I'll start!

Name of Ortho Program: Boston school
Dental School Attended: Pennsylvania school
Year Earned DMD/DDS: 2018
AEGD/GPR/Fellowship/Residency: None
International Student (yes/no): no
NBDE Part I/II scores: Pass/not sure yet- just took it last week
ADAT Score: 710 overall, 99% percentile
GRE Score: 159v, 156qr, 4.0wr
Class Rank: 1st (4.0 GPA)
Match/Non-Match: Match only
Externship(s)/where: None
Research: Chemistry research in undergrad, some ortho research in dental school. Several presentations, nothing published
Extracurriculars: Multiple clubs, volunteering, mission trips,, some leadership positions, part time work
Programs Applied to/Interview Invites/Interviews Attended/Programs Ranked: 16/8/8/8

I was pretty confident going into it, but the process really wears you down. There are no guarantees for anyone. I got rejected from half the schools I applied to, and I didn't match at my top choice. In the end, I feel lucky to have gotten a position. Stay positive everyone!

@Warren E. Namel, out of curiosity and possibly for the enlightenment of others, why did you bother taking the ADAT? Same reason as me, one of your top programs requiring it?

Big Hoss

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Did some more thinking about the ridiculous ADAT. There are only four situations where I could even remotely rationalize taking this exam:

1) You have a notably suboptimal class rank that you need to somehow repair (not really the OP’s case).
2) You went to a P/F school and you want to give programs something to work with.
3) You are absolutely targeting programs that require it, which outside of endo are few and far between (why I took it).
4) You’ve been out of dental school for a while and you want to show programs you’ve still got it (which is why endo likely has a greater interest in the ADAT, since many applicants are not coming straight from school).

Big Hoss

 

[hk64]

Thank you guys,

I greatly appreciate all three of yours comments.

 

[Warren E. Namel]

@Big Time Hoosier nowhere I applied to required it. I didn't think much about it, just wanted to add something else to distinguish myself since there was 2-3 other applicants in my school with the same rank.

 

[mstanley614]

Quick question for those with a better grasp on the field. For someone who never thought about a specialty in school and ranked 80/110. Is there even a prayer in applying to ortho coming from the military? Would it be a "MUST" to take both GRE and ADAT to overcome a 3.5GPA?

 

[Dentifrice]

Don't take the ADAT unless there is a specific program that say they require it. Not worth the time or money at this point as the program directors don't even know what the scores mean and since the majority of applicants don't take it there is no comparisons, i.e. if I take the ADAT, but none of the other interviewees to the program take it, it can't be used in comparing you against the other applicants.

 

[livefastdieyoung]

Are you allowed to take the ADAT after your second year? Even if you are not in process of applying to ADEA Pass.