Adcoms, being a non-trad, and the stigma of depression

[callan]

I’m in need of a bit of advice, and I’m hoping people on this great board can help me out.. Here’s some background on where I’m coming from (sorry if it gets lengthy):

I suffered from undiagnosed depression from the time I was in high school until after I graduated from college. The condition didn’t get severe until after I moved away from home and entered undergrad. While in undergrad (a top tier school), I overloaded myself by taking an average of 16-20 units/quarter as well as working 20-30hours a week. Additionally, I took about 3-4 classes every summer throughout all 4 years of college.

Now the first 1-1.5 years of college weren’t that bad -- I was still operating on a functional level, but my depression progressively worsened (combined with major burnout) until by my senior year I had quit my job and barely attended classes at all. I slept about 20 hours a day and only got up to cry, eat or go to the bathroom. Now you might wonder why I didn’t just get help for myself then – but please keep in mind that I had been in this depressive state for almost 10 years by that point. It just got worse and worse until I had no will to do anything for myself anymore. I lived away from home so it was easy to pretend to my family that everything was fine. In fact, I didn’t want my parents to find out – I was always the “model” child and the thought of telling them that I was depressed and needed to see a doctor was terrifying. My boyfriend knew and tried to be supportive, but we were in a long-distance relationship and there was little he could do for me.

Somehow by the grace of God, I graduated with a 3.45 gpa. I had managed to take the MCAT my senior year as well and scored a 30Q with a non-existent study regimen. I got a job after graduation working with clinical trials, but with my depression being so out of control, I quickly lost it and moved back home with my parents. After moving home, there was pretty much no hiding the fact that I wasn’t well. My parents actually handled the situation and took me to get some help.

Anyways, so I was put on a combination of different medications and eventually found one that worked for me. The difference was pretty amazing – between night and day. I could focus and had more energy than in the last 4 years. Feeling renewed and rejuvenated, I set out to determine what to do with the rest of my life. Now I had wanted to become a physician since high school. In fact I still did… but I had no knowledge about post-bacc programs or special masters programs. I didn’t know that a bad UG GPA could be "plumped up" with post-bacc classes. If only I had found SDN back then… my doctor relatives told me there was nothing I could do, so I finally accepted that my terrible GPA was a death knell for any kind of medical school dreams. So now what? Well, I knew that I wasn’t interested in research and didn’t want to pursue a masters or a PhD, so I finished a few prereqs and was accepted into pharmacy school. I’m now in my 3rd year of pharm school with a 3.85 gpa. I enjoy it, and if I had any ounce of sanity, I would just graduate and be a pharmacist. But everyday I see medical students on campus and feel this horrible rush of envy.

After finding SDN and reading threads in the nontrad forum, I’ve become a lot more informed and have decided to take the MCAT this summer and apply for med schools next year. I think I have an OK chance numbers-wise if I do well on my MCAT and apply to a broad range of schools. My GPA was raised to about 3.50 after finishing pharm prereqs. I’m trying to “double up” and take extension classes at night after my pharmacy classes during the day. If I do well, I can maybe raise it to a 3.55.

The main problem that I see with admissions committees is how to explain my past GPA and the fact that I entered into a pharmacy program instead of just applying to medical school to begin with. If I’m completely honest with them, I would say that pharmacy was a consolation prize for something that I had thought was totally lost to me… but can I say that without being rejected flat-out for med school? Also, can I even talk about my history of depression and my resulting GPA to adcoms or would I be forced to just let them think that I was a generally unfocused student and keep completely quiet about it? There’s a big stigma attached to things like depression that I’m not sure how to deal with..

If anyone has any advice, I’m all ears. Thanks for reading my ramblings.

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[Scottish Chap]

I'm in need of a bit of advice, and I'm hoping people on this great board can help me out.. Here's some background on where I'm coming from (sorry if it gets lengthy):

I suffered from undiagnosed depression from the time I was in high school until after I graduated from college. The condition didn't get severe until after I moved away from home and entered undergrad. While in undergrad (a top tier school), I overloaded myself by taking an average of 16-20 units/quarter as well as working 20-30hours a week. Additionally, I took about 3-4 classes every summer throughout all 4 years of college.

Now the first 1-1.5 years of college weren't that bad -- I was still operating on a functional level, but my depression progressively worsened (combined with major burnout) until by my senior year I had quit my job and barely attended classes at all. I slept about 20 hours a day and only got up to cry, eat or go to the bathroom. Now you might wonder why I didn't just get help for myself then – but please keep in mind that I had been in this depressive state for almost 10 years by that point. It just got worse and worse until I had no will to do anything for myself anymore. I lived away from home so it was easy to pretend to my family that everything was fine. In fact, I didn't want my parents to find out – I was always the "model" child and the thought of telling them that I was depressed and needed to see a doctor was terrifying. My boyfriend knew and tried to be supportive, but we were in a long-distance relationship and there was little he could do for me.

Somehow by the grace of God, I graduated with a 3.45 gpa. I had managed to take the MCAT my senior year as well and scored a 30Q with a non-existent study regimen. I got a job after graduation working with clinical trials, but with my depression being so out of control, I quickly lost it and moved back home with my parents. After moving home, there was pretty much no hiding the fact that I wasn't well. My parents actually handled the situation and took me to get some help.

Anyways, so I was put on a combination of different medications and eventually found one that worked for me. The difference was pretty amazing – between night and day. I could focus and had more energy than in the last 4 years. Feeling renewed and rejuvenated, I set out to determine what to do with the rest of my life. Now I had wanted to become a physician since high school. In fact I still did… but I had no knowledge about post-bacc programs or special masters programs. I didn't know that a bad UG GPA could be "plumped up" with post-bacc classes. If only I had found SDN back then… my doctor relatives told me there was nothing I could do, so I finally accepted that my terrible GPA was a death knell for any kind of medical school dreams. So now what? Well, I knew that I wasn't interested in research and didn't want to pursue a masters or a PhD, so I finished a few prereqs and was accepted into pharmacy school. I'm now in my 3rd year of pharm school with a 3.85 gpa. I enjoy it, and if I had any ounce of sanity, I would just graduate and be a pharmacist. But everyday I see medical students on campus and feel this horrible rush of envy.

After finding SDN and reading threads in the nontrad forum, I've become a lot more informed and have decided to take the MCAT this summer and apply for med schools next year. I think I have an OK chance numbers-wise if I do well on my MCAT and apply to a broad range of schools. My GPA was raised to about 3.50 after finishing pharm prereqs. I'm trying to "double up" and take extension classes at night after my pharmacy classes during the day. If I do well, I can maybe raise it to a 3.55.

The main problem that I see with admissions committees is how to explain my past GPA and the fact that I entered into a pharmacy program instead of just applying to medical school to begin with. If I'm completely honest with them, I would say that pharmacy was a consolation prize for something that I had thought was totally lost to me… but can I say that without being rejected flat-out for med school? Also, can I even talk about my history of depression and my resulting GPA to adcoms or would I be forced to just let them think that I was a generally unfocused student and keep completely quiet about it? There's a big stigma attached to things like depression that I'm not sure how to deal with..

If anyone has any advice, I'm all ears. Thanks for reading my ramblings.

Hi there!
Great, honest post. I'm so sorry that you have suffered in the past. I would, however, strongly advise that you do not make depression a focal point in your medical school application at any stage. Also, Admissions Committees literally hear hundreds of 'excuses' every year (I don't mean that fececiously) for a subpar GPA and/or MCAT and it tends to turn them off. Hold your head high and don't 'apologize' for your past; I think that you did well (especially given the circumstances!) and you did your best. Take the MCAT and apply. I'll bet you get accepted.

Lastly, persevere and don't give up.

All the best!
SC

 

[RxnMan]

From personal experience, I would strongly suggest that you not make your personal trauma the focus of any essay. It's fine to give an explanation to problems in your past, but your essays should all be positive. Talk about why you want to be a doc, what pushed you towards that, all of that. Include at most 2 sentences giving an explanation to poor performance (and 3.45 is not bad) and then get on to why pharm won't satisfy you like being a doc will. Heck, I'd leave the ugrad GPA where it is and focus on getting the PharmD finished - it would look bad to drop/fail that.

 

[callan]

Thanks for the great advice so far, keep it coming

Just some thoughts though.. I hope my post didn't come off sounding like a sad, sob story. That wasn't my intention, and I'm not thinking about writing my essay as a sob story either in order to get a break. It just feels somewhat dishonest.. or like I'm trying to cover up something shameful when I downplay depression and its role in developing who I am (esp when it consumed 10 years of my life). I do understand that it can turn people off though, and I'll take the advice and not bring it up anymore than absolutely necessary.

Additionally, I like the idea of just focusing on how pharm won't satisfy me like becoming a physician will.. I'll really try to stay on top of that. I'm just worried about being grilled at interviews and people asking me why I went to pharmacy school in the first place. Should I try to stay away from being 'completely' honest in this case as well? Downplaying the fact that it was a consolation prize (I imagine adcoms wouldn't like hearing that either) and perhaps say that it was the "practical" thing to do at that point (being a woman, thinking about future family plans, etc.)?

 

[Scottish Chap]

Thanks for the great advice so far, keep it coming

Just some thoughts though.. I hope my post didn't come off sounding like a sad, sob story. That wasn't my intention, and I'm not thinking about writing my essay as a sob story either in order to get a break. It just feels somewhat dishonest.. or like I'm trying to cover up something shameful when I downplay depression and its role in developing who I am (esp when it consumed 10 years of my life). I do understand that it can turn people off though, and I'll take the advice and not bring it up anymore than absolutely necessary.

Additionally, I like the idea of just focusing on how pharm won't satisfy me like becoming a physician will.. I'll really try to stay on top of that. I'm just worried about being grilled at interviews and people asking me why I went to pharmacy school in the first place. Should I try to stay away from being 'completely' honest in this case as well? Downplaying the fact that it was a consolation prize (I imagine adcoms wouldn't like hearing that either) and perhaps say that it was the "practical" thing to do at that point (being a woman, thinking about future family plans, etc.)?

I, too, always feel that honesty is the best policy. Of course, be honest. However, I think that the single biggest mistake that most medical school applicants make (even with a good GPA and MCAT) is to appear unfocused. Everything you do must appear to be a logical progression toward convincing yourself that you are called to serve in medicine. The AMCAS form and interview do not give you enough time to bear your soul and tell the adcom what defines you as a person; it's just not practical and it's not required, so don't worry. Thus, filtering your experiences and how they've prepared you for a career in medicine is critical and you must do this positively. When I am interviewing applicants for medical school, only three things go through my mind:1) Is this person stable and sensible or are they 'on the edge'?; 2) Is this person compassionate and caring?; 3) Is this person diligent and somebody I would trust as a colleague? In doing that, positivity is where you want to be. I agree with Rxnman 100%.

 

[kate_g]

I'll really try to stay on top of that. I'm just worried about being grilled at interviews and people asking me why I went to pharmacy school in the first place. Should I try to stay away from being 'completely' honest in this case as well? Downplaying the fact that it was a consolation prize (I imagine adcoms wouldn't like hearing that either)

Tell them what you just told us: you were unaware of programs designed to improve on your undergrad performance and get you ready for med school; family doctor friends told you you had no chance, so you just didn't even try; you were still interested in medicine and wanted to be involved, and you thought pharmacy might be something you could enjoy. Now that you've become aware that you *do* have a chance at med school, you just can't stop thinking about it and know that you won't be satisfied until you can be a physician, etc. Sure, avoid saying it was a consolation prize, but your "real" reasons don't actually sound all that bad...

I don't know this personally, but I've seen people post over and over again that you should keep a lid on the depression diagnosis. Depression is common among med students, and you'd think they would be glad to know you'd been through it and had it under control, but that seems not to be the case.

 

[njbmd]

I'm in need of a bit of advice, and I'm hoping people on this great board can help me out.. Here's some background on where I'm coming from (sorry if it gets lengthy):

I suffered from undiagnosed depression from the time I was in high school until after I graduated from college. The condition didn't get severe until after I moved away from home and entered undergrad. While in undergrad (a top tier school), I overloaded myself by taking an average of 16-20 units/quarter as well as working 20-30hours a week. Additionally, I took about 3-4 classes every summer throughout all 4 years of college.

I would totally avoid mentioning anything about "undiagnosed depression". If you feel you must explain your GPA, do so by speaking about an "chronic illness" that you didn't know you had and that is now diagnosed and under complete control. Depression is a clinical illness and the specifics of any of your clinical illnesses is not material for an medical school interview. Say you were ill; now you are well and be done.

I would not mention anything about the GPA unless specifically asked in an interview. Have an explanation ready such as working and taking an full courseload. There is no reason to draw attention or attempt to make excuses for something that really does not need to be explained.

You are not going to be "grilled" at an interview so I would resist playing that scenario in your mind. Any interviewer wants to get to know you personally. They are not "hunting" for reasons to NOT accept you. If you are invited for an interview, they are interested in accepting you.

You are likely NOT going to have to explain why you went to pharmacy school. If asked, state that you thought it might be a great career for you but you wanted more direct patient contact and thus medicine is not a better fit.

Have a listen to SDN Podcast #2 when you get a chance. I go thorough some things to anticipate when preparing for your medical school interview. (The podcasts are found under the Podcast Forum).

You do not have to be apologetic about your past when applying to medical school. You have to be pro-active in emphasizing why you would be a good candidate for medical school and why you should be admitted.

Good luck!

 

[callan]

Thanks njbmd. I didn't even realize podcasts were available, definitely going to head there and check it out.

 

[MiesVanDerMom]

I agree with using the phrase "illness". I had problems with post-partum depression and said "health problems related to my pregnancy". But I also agree a 3.45 is not something that needs a lot of explaining, especially with work hours etc. Good luck

 

[KATS82md]

Hi,

i think that is great advice- explain your issue as simply an illness. i too, have been struggling with what to do regarding this. i was experiencing depression throughout my undergraduate career. it really blew up in my junior year and my grades plummeted. this is when i fully realized what had been going on with me- i dont think i knew i had a problem until it was horrible. anyway, i graduated from a very competitive school, with an accounting degree, with a 3.1 gpa. your 3.45 looks great from where i am! i am applying to postbacs now and one of them gives the applicant the opportunity to write a second essay describing something that i wish to convey. i had planned on using this to explain my aweful gpa and discuss the fact that i went through some really tough times, had sick family members, experienced anxiety and depression, and just focused on getting through school, not excelling. after reading some things online, though, it seems to be a common thread that this should not be discussed. so, should i not talk about my problems either? should i just say that i experienced a serious illness during my college years that made it very difficult to focus on schoolwork??? should i use that second essay option to say that?

 

[wleet]

"Accentuate the Positive; Eliminate the Negative"

A dated, pithy aphorism, but still pragmatic for the application cycle.


Good luck to all in fulfilling their dreams.

 

[Divine Furor]

Jumpin' on the depression bandwagon...

We have somewhat similar stories...I tanked my sophomore GPA as a result of serious depression AND I took significant time off from school...although then went back to graduate with a 3.7 many years later after serious effort. I won't rehash what everyone's already said in their replies, but I will bullet my own approach and see if you can take anything from it:

1. I didn't focus on my depression ANYWHERE in the application. Not strictly out of some fearful avoidance or trying to dodge the leery Adcom's...but because it's not the point. The point is I suffered, recovered, went back to the same institution, learned a heckuva lot about life, matured, succeeded and can demonstrate all that to anyone who asks.
2. I took my time and dealt with my fears as they arose. I wasn't sure, upon graduating, that even though I wanted medical school...that I could emotionally hack it right away. So I made sure I could balance life and stress and relationships for a little while before committing to the anxiety-alien-invasion that is this entire application process.
3. To your questions: It is absolutely illegal for an interviewer to ask you whether you have suffered from any psychopathology, or hospitalization, or depression. They are not allowed, and I have this on authority from a certain Dean of a certain NY medical school. That being said, the best approach you can bring to any direct question about your undergrad performance is total confidence. If you waver, or appear to be obscuring or excusing yourself, then that resonates more than any unconfessed past trauma. Adcom's don't care why you slipped up, they care that when asked you don't break a sweat in giving them the most authentic, introspective and intelligent response you can.

 

[viostorm]

You are well poised for a MD school with probably a 3.6 cumulative and 30 MCAT. Definitely very competitive for DO.

If it were me I would not bring the depression thing to the table. It may be pertinent to your situation in undergrad, but as a doctor you will have to practice regardless of how depressed you are ... peoples lives will be in your hands. You can't say, "I'm sorry your husband died I was too depressed last night to come in and take care of him." If that is the case and you feel your illness is that bad you should not be a physician. None of us can have a crutch because in the end the patient still needs to be taken care of.

Don't go to school because of "envy", you will never make it through. It is just too hard frankly. Do it for the right reasons, because you truly want to take care of patients and be their doctor.

This opportunity to be a physician is the greatest gift I have ever been given ... if you do decide to do it ... it is truly an amazing experience.

If you do go, seriously watch the depression ... it is such a stressful experience I think everyone in my class gets a little mental illness for time to time. I can only imagine how difficult it would be if you were more susceptible to it.

I also would not recommend retaking MCAT, a 30 is plenty. Don't risk getting a lower score since it has been so long since you took the classes.

 

[neurodoc]

You are well poised for a MD school with probably a 3.6 cumulative and 30 MCAT. Definitely very competitive for DO.

If it were me I would not bring the depression thing to the table. It may be pertinent to your situation in undergrad, but as a doctor you will have to practice regardless of how depressed you are ... peoples lives will be in your hands. You can't say, "I'm sorry your husband died I was too depressed last night to come in and take care of him." If that is the case and you feel your illness is that bad you should not be a physician. None of us can have a crutch because in the end the patient still needs to be taken care of.

Don't discuss your "depression" on your application, if your aim is to get admitted to med school. For better or for worse, this will be seen by Ad Coms as an admission of serious "mental illness." And believe me, they will view your application with prejudice. It would be better for you to "explain" any academic deficiencies as due to "I was just unfocused," "I had a financial crisis," or anything else than "I got derailed by a major mental disorder."