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Adelphi Offer, Worth the Debt?

Discussion in 'Psychology [Psy.D. / Ph.D.]' started by Psychologist_dreamer, Apr 12, 2018.

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  1. MamaPhD

    MamaPhD Psychologist, Academic Medical Center
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    I don't think anyone has said that relocation would be a necessity, merely a possibility (that is, if you are only willing to consider APA-accredited internships). I live in a large city nowhere near NY and I readily can name at least half a dozen psychologists who have done grad school, internship, postdoc, and first job all inside a 20-mile radius. If you widen the radius to 100 miles the number becomes dozens. You might be under the mistaken impression that this is a local phenomenon, but in fact this happens just about everywhere that the option exists. A lot of people want to stay in their familiar/comfort zone. What's important to understand is it's just not a guarantee and there are trade-offs that come with it.

    What is exceptional about NY (and other popular locations) is that you have the locals who want to stay, plus many people from other places who want to move in, so the market is saturated and employers have the upper hand. The plum internships and jobs are really competitive. If you are comfortable with those odds, and don't mind being deeply in debt as a means to an end, go for it. Or not!

    Let us know what you decide to do.
     
    psychrat, cara susanna and Sanman like this.
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  3. Psychologist_dreamer

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    Because of the debt o already have from my UG and MA in psych and what I expect to acquire with further education
     
  4. Psychologist_dreamer

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    Oh I already live on the island. The city, LI, Westchester; all are ok by me.
    I might want to move for intership by, then but I don't want to have no other options but to move..which from what everyone is saying here is the norm elsewhere ?
     
  5. Psychologist_dreamer

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    See well that doesn't sound so bad...why is everyone acting like you have to? I never said I'm not willing to move, just not to "flyover". If I'm in A program in like Seattle, Colorado, Oregon, Utah, other places in the north east/east coast; And won't have to move 4x that's fine..

    I just am having a hard time piecing apart this strongly insisted advice from people here that you have to move Like 4x...and that I have to go to flyover..
     
  6. Justanothergrad

    Justanothergrad Counseling Psychologist
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    No one is telling you that you have to move. EVERYONE is telling you that you may have to consider it if you want to be competitive because you are not competitive for those programs at present., and that you are unlikely to be highly competitive within the areas you want to be because of the nature of those areas Saying you are "ok with" a program does little to make you competitive for them. Programs, practicum, internships, and post-docs are not competing for applicants- particularly within the areas you identify.

    You don't have to move. You just may not be successful if you dont' consider other areas. As evidenced by not being successful in those areas.
     
  7. erg923

    erg923 Regional Clinical Officer, Cenpatico National
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    Most of america would consider this quite slanderous.
     
  8. MamaPhD

    MamaPhD Psychologist, Academic Medical Center
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    Well, it's the "have to" part that you've misconstrued. It's more accurate to say that you can't really know for sure. And that's more true for people who are vying for spots in more competitive areas. Some people do move 4 times. I actually don't think that's the most common outcome, but I don't have the statistics to back that up. On the other hand, I do personally know several psychologists who moved 3 or 4 before starting their first jobs, and were otherwise well trained and strong applicants. Moving twice isn't at all uncommon. There is a point at which you become so invested in your training that the only reasonable option is to stick it out through licensure, even if it means having to relocate. That's the point people are trying to make. It's a calculated risk, with a range of possible outcomes.

    Then there are people who insist on remaining in a given area, licensure prospects be damned, and that is why you see more unaccredited doctoral programs and internships in, for example, SoCal as compared to Atlanta. Many of those folks end up underemployed or doing something that doesn't require a doctoral degree. It is not a good outcome.
     
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  9. Psychologist_dreamer

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    I think this thread became more of a: convince this girl to move to flyover country, then advise this girl on what shes actually presenting.

    But I do really appreciate all of the outside information and feedback on some other things I hadn't considered.. Which actually helped convince me even further of why I don't want to do that.

    At the end of the day I think we can all agree with no publications and my current quant and gpa score, I won't be able to get a fully funded spot in the programs I am looking at (SLC, Colorado springs {just got rejected}, Oregon, or Washington)
    And for whats in my area in NY, I prefer Adelphi over the other options, and don't think I'll be able to get into Fordham (which is like the only fully funded program here)
     
  10. Justanothergrad

    Justanothergrad Counseling Psychologist
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    Nope - no one cares what you do. I don't get why you keep making this as if we do. This is just an internet forum. We want you (and anyone on the forum) to be empowered to make informed decisions that match their competitiveness/career goals, and that also consist of general good economic planning. You are, of course, free to ignore good council and make poor decisions on the basis of ignoring what countless accomplished professionals in the field have told you. It won't cause anyone to lose sleep. Plenty of folks have done it before and, unfortunately, it is likely that many will continue to in the future. You wanted to have us answer one question, not understanding how that question doesn't make sense within the broader scope of the field and knowing that the question is a morally-based one anyway (of which we have no way to answer for you). This is why no one answered your question and answered a different one. There was a consistent response within those answers. You didn't know what you needed to know about the field. This isn't entirely your fault- you do not have the experience we have.

    Good luck.
     
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  11. MamaPhD

    MamaPhD Psychologist, Academic Medical Center
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    No, actually, no one cares about where you eventually live. That is irrelevant. What's important is that you understand the risks inherent in geographical restriction as you pursue this path, and that you fully understand both the financial and career ramifications of accepting the offer at hand. If you're going to pay the cost, know what you're getting into. You are 100% responsible for the decision.

    A lot of the same advice re: supply and demand would apply to someone who lives in a remote area with few training opportunities and jobs but wants to stay close to family, or is tied down for some other reason. Search the board for other threads on the topic. You're not the first person to raise this issue and you won't be the last. The specifics aside (because they really don't change the advice), you're asking a question that comes up on this board probably every few months.

    Good luck, and again, let us know what you decide!
     
  12. WorkLifeBalance

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    Just another 2 cents... and granted this was four years ago, but two of the four students on internship with me came from NYC APA accredited programs - and they said that most of their program cohort was spread across the country. This is also a convenience sample (much like you've been posting), but in my experience, people from NY programs don't necessarily/aren't always able to stay in NY.
     
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  13. tiy123

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    I may have missed this earlier, but why not wait two years to get some posters/publications and get your scores up? If you want to stay in NY long term it would definitely be worth it to wait. People know that Adelphi's program is for people who couldn't get into funded programs, so you'll be a less competitive applicant applying to competitive internships/post-docs/jobs against people who went to funded schools with stronger reputations (Fordhams a good example that you mentioned).

    Also, I thought the deadline to accept offers was the 15th?
     
  14. freeprozac

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    I'm also dealing with the question of whether Adelphi is worth it. My professors recommended it but the funding is atrocious.
     
  15. YoungFrancis

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    How much would you end up paying? Are you deciding between other offers?
     
  16. freeprozac

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    30k+ a year (plus rent and living expenses) is the best case scenario. I'm deciding between Adelphi and reapplying next year, with more experience and better GRE.
     
  17. Justanothergrad

    Justanothergrad Counseling Psychologist
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    Reapply more broadly would be the general advice. The debt of a poorly funded/unfunded program will have substantial impact on you long term. I would encourage you to read the whole thread.
     
  18. freeprozac

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    Are Counseling Psych PhD programs typically funded? I'm considering applying to those next year too
     
  19. Temperance

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    I've posted calculations for student loan payments earlier in the thread. The amount you would have to take out for tuition and living expenses in New York City has the potential to cripple your ability to reach lifestyle milestones (e.g., home ownership, retirement planning). If reapplication with more experience is an option for you, then my advice would be to wait that extra year. There isn't much sense to paying $150,000+ for a doctoral degree in clinical psychology when you could get your tuition waived and a stipend elsewhere.
     
  20. psych.meout

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    Much like clinical PhD programs, it depends. You'll need to check individual programs for their funding opportunities and getting Norcross' Insider's Guide would help. They also aren't really much less competitive than clinical PhD programs and more frequently require or strongly favor having a prior master's degree before admission.
     
  21. Psycycle

    Psycycle Psychologist, ABPP
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    I had the idea that I would split my salary between my loan balance, thinking that if I had lived on so much less in the past, I could continue to live very cheaply in order to pay off the loans.

    It does not work. If you earn $80K to start, you lose a good amount of that right off the bat in taxes. So it's not a year or two, it's more like 4-5 years of continued living in near poverty.

    What I've also learned in this career is that it takes a toll on you. You will hear and see things that are emotionally difficult, and over time, it can be exhausting. I have needed to offset that with fun, family, and breaks, all of which cost money. After 5-6 years of school - and make no mistake, it's stressful - personal reward is important also.

    I was fortunate enough to get full payment through a position in the VA. But if I hadn't, I would be struggling, and after those years in school I was tired of struggling in a way I could not have comprehended on the front end of it all.
     
  22. Justanothergrad

    Justanothergrad Counseling Psychologist
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    As with any PhD in psych, the answer will vary depending on the program. There are plenty of full funded counseling psych. Just like clinical the competitive ones and the ones you want to attend will all be funded
     
  23. Psychologist_dreamer

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    I have virtually no mentoring for publication. I have completed papers and data collected that I'm sitting on that I revised a bunch of times. But never got the next step of being guided through the publication conference. And I really don't have the finances to travel all over for conferences, and I keep missing the deadlines for local one's I could do either in NYC or Philadelphia. Again having no mentorship for that sucks.

    And no deadline was today the 16th
     
  24. Psychologist_dreamer

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    Honeslty I wouldn't take it knowing I would have to pay living expenses with the loans as well. I think thats insane. You will need a minimum of 20k a year to skate by with roommates, modest grocery bills, a small **** apartment over here, and public transport, and living within those means. No shopping for a ton of new clothes, no apple products, no fancy ****. Bare minimum lifestyle.

    But tacking on the 20-30k extra a year for living expenses, it would not any longer be worth it to go to this program for me.

    Do you have existing student loan debt ???
    How easy would it be for you to switch careers or paths or take longer to work on your ability to improve your application for next cycle ?

    Are you willing to take out 50-60k a year in debt ? It'll be double what I'm expecting to take out if you add on living expenses to that.
     
    #173 Psychologist_dreamer, Apr 16, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 23, 2018
  25. Psychologist_dreamer

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    I think unless you live with your parents, can work for living expenses, or have a spouse that can help; you shouldn't go to this program.

    I have a hard rule against taking out loans for living expenses though. Everyone has their own things but you're looking at double the debt then.
     
  26. Psychologist_dreamer

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    I already have taken gap years in between my BA and MA. (Where I volunteered in my 1sr research lab) and after my MA to do these apps. I'm not taking any more than 1 more, and I'm not working on new stuff.
    Then only thing I'll try to publish at this point is the data and papers I have, but i just don't have the mentorship to tell me how to submit to journals and figure out that process so I would have to figure it out myself and I really don't know where to start.

    I don' think I'll get into Fordham any ways, I don't have a good match there.
     
  27. BuckeyeLove

    BuckeyeLove Forensic Psychologist
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    This was a really great way to wrap up my last hour of the day.
     
  28. artsyann

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    No offense, but if you need someone to hold your hand through the process of publishing, etc, it just may not be the right field for you. I read this whole thread and I see a theme of you blaming everyone else for what you consider lack of mentorship, yet you admit you keep missing deadlines to submit for local conferences. It seems to me you aren't really ready to assume the responsibility and initiative a doctoral program requires.
    Also, your attitude towards the rest of the country and having to live there is pretty awful. You make a lot of assumptions about those places and your ability to find internships and post doc in the NYC area. People who have gone through it are giving you practical advice you choose to ignore, which is totally your right, but maybe don't ask opinions if all you are seeking only confirmation of the choice you have already made. Just a thought.
    You also make a lot of assumptions as to your partner's willingness and ability to carry you through massive debt repayment. What if that disappears?
    If you took half the time you have spent arguing on here to research how you can get published, you'd be better off. The reality is you have to want it enough to figure it out even if no one has drawn you a diagram on how to do it. Also, perhaps the poor mentorship in grad school had more to do with how you present yourself than the actual mentor. If you were unwilling to listen to their advice and experience, I could certainly see their hesitation in investing extra time into you.
     
  29. Bryan91

    Bryan91 Psy.D Candidate
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    Oh man, this thread was interesting to read through. I feel like if you know what it means to take out ~200k in loans and its potential consequences and still want to attend Adelphi, then you have your answer. It seems like you are not in a position to wait any longer to gain more experience and re-applying next year is not an appealing offer. At this moment, based on reading through this thread and its responses, i'd say you are pretty committed to attending Adelphi and know what you are getting into, so accept the offer.
     
  30. Psychologist_dreamer

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    There's a difference between "needing your hand held" and expecting to be shown how to do something in a field you've never done before. So everyone just figured it out on their own huh? Doubt it.
    And again as I've said earlier, if you think the way I talk to a group of condescending pricks online is the same as I behave professionally then you're really daft.

    As I said to the other guy who was blaming me for my lack of mentorship, this lab and these faculty members didn't just behave this way toward me; it' how they behaved towards all of their students.
    So no it wasn't "my attitude". There are such things as bad mentors out there you know. Seems like some of the people in this thread are.

    And what I find awful is that someone called me a "typical snotty new Yorker" before I made any comments about anyone else from anywhere else, yet I'm catching a bunch of flak for retorting. For a group of apparently educated psychologists, a lot of you have pretty poor reading comprehension if you fail to see I was insulted and talked to very condescendingly first. Even so I didn't start personally insulting anyone here, unlike others, until well after I got picked apart and insulted.

    There's othing wrong with someone saying they don't want to live in a big city, or the middle of no where. It is what it is. But apparently not to you folk. If you're that insecure about your living locations that someone simply saying they wont ever live in them, or making a small joke about it being bumble****; you've got a personal problem.
     
    #179 Psychologist_dreamer, Apr 17, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 23, 2018
  31. Psychologist_dreamer

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    Anyways I'm glad that my life and decisions were so amusing to so many of you. I wonder if you laugh at your patients the same way ? For a group of psychologists the way many of you behaved and responded to me is disgusting.
     
  32. psychrat

    psychrat licensed psychologist
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    Check with Adelphi, but I know that in my PhD program (out west) any outside employment had to be approved by the faculty. I only know one person who was able to work part-time at an off campus position during their first year. After that year clinical work starts and you still have course work, research, and teaching. Most doctorate students I know did not work outside of school... In other words, consider if you will actually have time to work outside of school.
     
  33. Psychologist_dreamer

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    Only funded programs have that rule.
    Most do not but those who have to, and are used to working and going to school have.

    There are some people in the Adelphi program who work, a friend of mine from a bar/restaurant I worked at who is a bit older than me went to hofstra for her phd and still worked at the bar the whole time.
    It's hard but where it's not funded and you are able and willing to, you can make it work.
    You'd be surprised what people are capable of.

    The good thing about service industry is you can always work weekends
     
  34. smalltownpsych

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    I went back and reviewed the thread and the comment about "snotty New Yorkers" was not directed specifically at anyone. We all know people from lots of different places that have a very provincial "locals only" attitude. I guess it must have hit a button. As far as psychologists and patients goes, I can only speak for myself and my patients. Sometimes I laugh at myself, sometimes my patients, and sometimes we laugh together. Nevertheless, my patients and I both take what we are doing very seriously and sometimes we are literally making life or death decisions. It does hit a button with me when a prospective doctoral student starts to pass judgement on the clinical skills of any psychologist based on how they advise a student in an online forum.
     
  35. Psychologist_dreamer

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    Yeah it was directed at me having done my whole education here and wanting to stay/live in other metro ish areas.
    And if it wasn't, what makes his comment ok and mine not ok? What makes them any different? Why can you make an excuse for him and not me ?

    I'd way rereared what just another grad said and how to me..and the way I was reacting might make a lot more sense.

    And yeah if people are condescending and judgemental in an advisement position, I can only surmise how they might behave in other advisement positions. When it's every post having a condescending attitude, and sneaking in personal little digs like just another grad did, such as saying "I feel bad for the people who mentor you if you can't click a simple link",then yeah I think it's safe to say some might to be so great or nice.

    As jk Rowling once said "it's not how one treats their equals that shows you their true character..." or something along those lines.
     
    #184 Psychologist_dreamer, Apr 17, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2018
  36. Justanothergrad

    Justanothergrad Counseling Psychologist
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    Two things, and one bonus thing.
    1. It was directed at attitudes which dismiss entire portions of the country as not as good. Its an attitude you display fully on later when you repeatedly called parts of the country fly-over and full of yokels. Your perceptions were later proven inaccurate on the basis of numerous claims you made about NY having the highest and most strict requirements. Despite that, you ignored any evidence which contradicted you. That behavior is like I called it. I noted its potential early (and, not in a way to attack you- it was more of a personal awareness issue). As with #2, this is a bias which may come off wrong to others (I'm not the only one here who has noted that the way you talk about other areas of the country is a bit demeaning), and that is a professionalism issue.

    2. Are you suggesting that the attitudes displayed on the internet are accurate reflections of professionalism? You mean to say that the way you communicate here is how you act in person? My earlier advice to evaluate your attitude and approach to advice is now doubled. If you get this defensive and aggressive when offered feedback during graduate training (even feedback you may disagree with- which is fine as well), there are substantial professional development issues present. You even ended a recent post with a more subtle attack on character by quoting Rawling. I don't care about that or your other numerous personal attacks on me (e.g., when you told me that "you're what you would call, a class traitor my friend", "...you get to be a insufferable know it all prick..", "you are rude and pedantic", etc) because this is an internet forum and I don't take those things personally, but I do think its something you need to evaluate. From a training perspective, your defensiveness, sensitivity, and aggressiveness in responses are issues which are worthy of lengthy self-reflection and consultation with supervisors. I don't mean this as a personal dig. This isn't an attack (again, I don't care what you do or where you do it), but from a training perspective this is an issue you should consider because if you take things this personally (regardless of if you communicate it or not to your supervisor is a separate issue), that is an area where you can grow. Doing so will make you a better psychologist. I suspect part of this is you are reading and responding emotionally rather than spending some time to think about and process it. There was a great research joke about getting article rejections from Lego Grad student today. I think you are responding at 5:15-5:20 instead of 5:43 and after. We all have the 5:15-5:20 time. Having it isn't the problem- it's being able to censor it so that it doesn't impact you in how you perceive, respond, or engage in future tasks. It clearly has in this thread and I suspect may happen in other areas of your professional work as well.



    3. You keep putting in quotes things I didn't say and using that to demonstrate how I've been mean to you. At least put the quotes for what I've said.Please be accurate when you quote me and make assertions about my character based on those quotes. Be academically honest with your quotes. I said what I did because instead of using information posted to dispute the match rate, you ignored the link and started to try and pick a fight again.

    For sake of being clear about what was actually said:
    You claimed I said: "I feel bad for the people who mentor you if you can't click a simple link"
    I actually said: "May whatever god they believe in have mercy on any advisor you work with.You can't even even use information posted that is useful to you (i.e., your program has not had someone at Yale despite claiming that, according to you) without wanting to get into an argument. It makes me about 75% convinced you're just here to troll."
     
    #185 Justanothergrad, Apr 17, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2018
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  37. artsyann

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    Based on the fact you said you kept missing deadlines to apply for local conferences, yes I think you do expect to have your hand held through publishing. I actually live near a big east coast city. And I am actually realistic that for my career goals I will most likely have to relocate. I am fine with that because frankly I want to be the best trained and educated professional I can be. Someone who insists on not moving and may take I’ll fitting training opportunities to do so is not someone I would want as a clinician personally.

    Your clear lack of self awareness is not going to serve you well, and I hope you take some time to examine things. If you do or don’t is of no consequence to me. I highly doubt we’ll be competitors for anything in the future.
     
  38. Justanothergrad

    Justanothergrad Counseling Psychologist
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    I would caution against over-interpreting. We know that moving is extremely frequent, but not moving does not mean that someone has received poorer training or that they do not make a good clinician. This is far too complex of a process to narrow that down. Its very possible that movement may be limited in achieving those goals, or that someone may move and still not obtain them. While its true that moving is common, it does cause training quality in either direction. Being open to moving does increase the probability of success in the field and the ability to match to ones interest. That may, or may not, relate to skill or outcomes.
     
  39. Psycycle

    Psycycle Psychologist, ABPP
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    Actually, if you take nothing else from this thread: when you paraphrase, you do not use quotes. When you take a direct line from someone, you put it in quotes.

    It is poor argument and, as stated above, dishonest to take what someone said, escalate the content, and then start attacking the escalated comment.
     
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  40. AcronymAllergy

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    Psychologist
    Mod Note: The thread appears to have run its course, and has the potential to now veer into being unproductive.
     
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